Great article. Your problem is, however, that this is a long-term approach that requires planning and forethought.

What Knox County is looking for is a quick solution to fill up a new high school that everyone said was needed but now no one wants to go to now that it has been built without much planning or forethought.

Maybe the downtown library was a better idea, after all.

I agree with this article to a point. These large high schools, all schools really, are nothing but baby-sitting services for our cattle. Moo! Get them in as fast, take your tax dollars(plus more money), and get them out as fast as they can. Who cares if these calves learn anything or can cope in the outside world?

If I had the money, I would place all three of mine in a private school. If I thought I wouldn't kill them (a la Andrea Yates), I would definitely homeschool. So I am stuck, but I do make myself known at each school, volunteering when I can. Most parents do not have the luxury of time.

For the record, so that you don't think I am some crazy out here. I am from NashVegas, and was bussed over 20 miles to go to a middle school downtown, where I saw my share of hookers and druggies. When I got to high school, which was just right down the street, I placed 19th out of 250, took every AP course offered, paid for every AP test($140 a pop)myself, and started college as a sophomore.

In Knox County, do they give every student the chance to take harder courses? When do they have to decide if they want to graduate with a Honors Diploma?

Honors classes are allowed to students based on test scores and middle school performance.

BBeanster is older and lived somewhere longer (in her opinion) she is much more qualified and knowledgable?

One approach to all this is large buidlings with schools within a school -- small learning communtiies. You keep the 500 or so kids together for the benefits that creates. But the reality is economics -- we can't build all the amenties for schools with only 1000 or so kids. That means no athelitc stadiums. I believe the school at the top of the top 100 list is 3000 students. I am trying to be open minded but I am not convince that small schools are better. I am of the mindset -- let each community decide. But then we have to acknowledge we have communities in knox county and preserve those communties through school zones.

I hope everyone in town learns how much we need long term planning. And educating our children is the best place to start. If you haven't checked out the workforce project report -- go to knox chamber website.

Thanks for the dialogue.

I went to South High. I doubt it was more than 500-600 students. We had a football field, a gym, a band, metal shop, wood shop, plastic shop, the works.

Then I went to Doyle. It was about 1200 students. We had a bigger football field, a bigger gym, a bigger band, and even more of the works (separate band building with rehearsal rooms, AV lab, auto garage/body shop, machine shops, all the other shops, fully equipped art department, you name it, and no portable classrooms except one they put out on an extra (!) parking lot for a drivers ed classroom with simulators and cars and the whole nine yards).

Meanwhile there was Young High, about the size of South.

All three were in South Knox. Now only Doyle remains.

How come you could do it back then, and not now?

I have five children. We run the spectrum from special ed to gifted in our family. My daughter who was ineligible for gifted in elementary, took AP classes in middle and is signed up for them in high school next year. My middle child has been in gifted through elementary and was a finalist in the school spelling bee for the past three years, but we aren't signing him up for any AP classes at the middle school next year.

Test scores and grades get you into AP classes. Grades keep you in them. You request a special diploma your Junior year.

Randy makes good points about the availbility of enriched curriculum in bigger schools.

Actually, my point was in response to PT saying bigger is better, and that Doyle, with only 1200 enrollment, had all the great stuff that a Farragut with, what, 2500? says they have to have to offer same, and that even a school with 500-600 enrollment could have a football stadium, band, etc.

But yes, Doyle definitely had better facilities and more opportunities than South, but I'm not sure I'd want to go to a school any bigger than Doyle.

Knox County almost built a great urban high school near UT in the late 1980s, but it was killed by neighborhood groups from Fulton and East Knoxville who ranted enough to give county commissioners from the 'burbs the excuse they needed not to spend money on inner city kids. What a loss. -- s.

Betty hits the mark. The reality is that there is not enough support or money to build small schools. So we have to figure out a way to make the best with what we have. We can keep kids together for four years in smaller groups.

Regarding smaller schools still being able to have bands, football etc.: I don't know how long ago you graduated but those programs take alot of dollars to fund. My son plays football and we have had to donate almost $500 to keep the facility maintained and equipment purchased. If we didn't have a large team, it would be even more per child.

With respect to band, ask an band director if it is better and more challenging experience to be in a 50 member band vs. a 200 member band.

I hope you will all attend the next Education Summitt. I believe it is planned for the fall.

What about a compromise? We keep the large schools for all they provide. We build small core-curriculum schools taking advantage of existing infrastructures (closed strip malls, etc.). Students are scheduled 3 days a week at the core-curriculum "small schools" and two days a week at the "large school" for specialty classes like wildlife management, gym, band, computers, etc.

I know Pat Summitt's been on our minds lately, and she is a national treasure.

But unless these meetings are named for her, they're probaby Summits, not Summitts.

I went to Doyle in the same era as our esteemed host. I recall it as pretty middling - no AP classes, no calculus (unless there was a student teacher), Bio II a joke (and no evolution anywhere, hell no), limited history offerings, French III and Spanish III together, and almost no college counseling for any school further away than ETSU. English did try to diversify; it had four years of required courses to fill. Music was very good, though unfortunately no benefit to me.

Doyle was big enough to offer these things, and many schools of the same size do nowadays, but in the 70s Doyle didn't.

It's also true that many high schools with under a thousand students can offer a rich curriculum without breaking the bank. This is true because the variable that matters is class size. Once you have 25 kids who want to take an AP class, it doesn't cost much if any more than teaching 25 kids something less advanced.

Furthermore, in a system the size of the Knox Co. Schools, there are lots of opportunities to do distance learning over the internet so that you can (with some scheduling headaches) make a full-sized and thus economical class out of two kids per school. And then you don't have to move the kids, only the bits.

Liberty and justice for all.

check the website. It is not Summits or Summitts, as you suggest. It is collegesummit.org A read of the post from rocketsquirrel just prior to the post you left will reveal the real answer.

I went to Doyle in the same era as our esteemed host. I recall it as pretty middling - no AP classes, no calculus (unless there was a student teacher), Bio II a joke (and no evolution anywhere, hell no), limited history offerings, French III and Spanish III together, and almost no college counseling for any school further away than ETSU.

Gosh, LL, you paid way to much attention to learning. You may be right about Doyle, I barely remember what was offered, but then I did major in music.

They offered Latin at Doyle. I know that. They also offered an English class focused on Shakespeare, which I dropped out of after one day. Trigonometry was available. And evolution? Who was even thinking about it? There was a war on ya know. I am pretty sure they offered Bible as a class :).

I also know with all the easy courses I took at Doyle I was admitted to UT with no problem immediately after graduation. You wanted college counseling?!?! I suppose it is a good thing there are some out there such as yourself that think past the moment. Otherwise who would go to Harvard and Yale or U of Chicago or Duke or Berkeley? Hope you got into the school of your choice!

As I recall, Mildred Doyle's sister was the guidance counselor at Doyle High. She straightened me right out in a couple of short sessions with regard to dressing up my report card if I ever wanted to get into college.

At the time we attended Doyle the Spanish (Ms. Preston, I believe) and French (can't remember her name even though I took a class from her) teachers were not the same person. I don't know who taught Latin. The one person I knew who took Latin was planning on a future in the medical field.

Lovable Liberal mentions "in a system the size of the Knox Co. Schools, there are lots of opportunities to do distance learning over the internet"

Of course, if you say "Internet" and "public school" in the same sentence, someone is going to scream "not everyone has high speed Internet access." But the no Internet and no computer issue can be addressed in a variety of ways.

All that aside, Lovable Liberal makes an interesting point. What if one day a week, students who had Internet Access (and parents at home), did home based learning through an online system. Knox County already employs a system called Plato Labs which is accessible over the Internet for homebound students to get course credit. Plato Labs may be specific to specials needs..I'm not sure. IF the logistics could be worked out, and video courses or courses over cable (like at college), could be provided, conceptually, you could reduce the school population by 20%.

I'm not really proposing such a thing. The logistics would be nightmarish. BUT! It is worth noting because our children's future will be more and more virtual and online. Already colleges publish courses for anyone online. In the next 5-15 years fewer people will commute to work and more will telecommute (the US Patent Office encourages telecommuting). Virutal environments akin to World of Warcraft will become the meeting rooms of the future. It is not unreasonable to begin planning for more virtual education systems where classes are provided online and parents help guide the students through the classes.

"A full-service school, where highly trained teachers, committed parents, and invested community partners combine academic, social, emotional, and health services to minimize the obstacles that keep students from achieving challenging academic standards" could have services like a computer lab that is available to families and community members outside of school hours.

In the spring of 1970 I was a sophmore going to Athens High School in Athens,Ga.

In April,to comply with the desegregation plan,the school board closed the black high school,Burney-Harris, & those students would go to,what had been a predominantly white school,Athens High,in the fall of 1970.

Many were proud of Burney-Harris & a protest march was organized.

A.P.,May;1970;Athens,Ga."police used tear gas & arrested some 75 persons,mostly black, as they broke up a protest march & some 200 National Guardsmen moved in to keep the peace."

When I went to school the next day the troops,in riot gear & with riot guns,walked the halls & surrounded the school.

The UGA campus also exploded in protest because of Kent State/Cambodia & the ROTC Building was bombed.

In the fall of '70 the school was renamed Clarke Central & was about 50% white/black.If a big fight didn't break out;It was a good day.
After the football team lost a game to knock them out of the play-offs @ practice the next week a brawl broke out.

This may not have anything to do with whats happening now.But It's what happened to me & few thousand other kids,in 1970.

Taking this thread a little further off topic...

Georgia is still slow in accepting diversity. Turner County High (Georgia) is planning their first ever integrated prom.