Go Joe.

www.lesjones.com

I'm sort of ambivalent about the whole deal. The City of Knoxville says it has reduced accidents at intersections where it is installed, but on the other hand it's another revenue source based on the expectation for people to break the law.

But speaking of McCord, isn't he the guy that got video taped going 100MPH on the Interstate on his way to Nashville?

(link...)

Wonder what's got a bee in his bonnet about red light cameras? Did he or somebody he knows get tagged? Curious that he's interested in Knoxville's business.

I personally loathe the idea of not being able to face my accuser, as well as the idea of some private corporation getting involved in law enforcement for profit. It seems rife for corruption.

Living in Knox Co, I can attest to seeing the cameras flash at night as people are making legal right turns on red.

What evidence do you have that the city has put revenue over safety?

I can count to three.

What a brilliant standard of evidence.

____________________________

Recursive blogwhore.

I can count to three.

Likewise. Honest question: what evidence do you have that the city has put revenue over safety?

If you intended that as something more than a flippant response, can you please elaborate?

Can we not argue that all traffic citations are in fact some form of revenue enhancement? There is the 'fine' portion of the ticket and the court cost, which is assessed on moving violations regardless of attending court to challenge the cite. In Knoxville, you used to be able to get an itemized receipt of your ticket. It came with such gems as the Judge Retirement Fund and the Safety City Fund.

I'm not so naive as to think ticket costs don't go up whenever a pet project needs funding.

"What evidence do you have that the city has put revenue over safety?"

Jumping in here:

(link...)

"A Texas Transportation Institute study found that an extra second of yellow time added to the current ITE formula yields a a 53 percent reduction in the number of tickets issued along with a 40 percent reduction in accidents."

So if it's true that Knoxville decreased the yellow light time at intersections with traffic light cameras, they have in fact traded revenue for safety.

www.lesjones.com

So if it's true that Knoxville decreased the yellow light time...

Right you are, but therein lies the rub. Again, I ask: anybody got any evidence on that?

Bien, Numero Nueve. Your evidence is personal observation. That answers the question I'm asking.

Follow-ups: do you remember, specifically, which ones are 3 seconds or less? Did you happen to time any of 'em, or are we counting one-Halloween two-Halloween?

Green light duration's a separate issue, I reckon.

I think you're confusing questions with argument, btw. Why the assumption I'm a Haslam supporter if I'm asking for evidence they did fiddle?

Where's the city's study? What methodology did they use? I thought you were the stickler for details.

Here's the complete Texas Transportation Institute 136 page study. Now let's see Knoxville's study.

www.lesjones.com

Also, I recall reading (not sure where) that various studies showing that traffic cameras actually increase accidents were presented to the city.

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SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

Rear end accidents, yes Uncle.

The data they don't give you is the increased number of rear-end accidents happen at these red light camera interesections because people remember at the last minute they are going to get a ticket if they don't stop.

I'm for increased safety but I think installing red light cameras in the middle of Knoxville's largest construction project when everyone is already frustrated from increased traffic is dumb.

Update: Cross-posted with a couple people, sorry.

KTB

Knoxnews has updated the article. Margie Nichols says revenue is not the motive for the cameras. Guess we can all rest easy and trust the gummint since they said so.

Gambling is a not a game.

Depends on the gambling.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

Rear end accidents, yes Uncle.

And the person following is the person at fault, not the person stopping at a red light (or in the middle of the road for a darting squirrel, for that matter).

____________________________

Recursive blogwhore.

Plays in poker rooms here in the City. That's way different from online and you know it.

It is. But his strategy as described seems to fit tight online players who like to wait until they hit trips or better and push.

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SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

Andy, it is their fault but, particularly at a red light, someone abruptly breaking due to the fear of a ticket is danger.

...which you should always be aware of as the driver in the following car approaching a changing traffic light. Driving is dangerous, period.

That's defensive and not dumbfensive. I don't know about you, but I don't trust turn signals until I see someone commit to the turn. And I never enter traffic immediately on a change from green to red because there's always some NASCAR wannabe giblet-head who's playing by "no cop, no stop" rules.

I'm pretty sure that in Blount County that the law is that vehicles are to come to a complete stop as indicated by a red light, just like it is in the rest of, oh.. the known universe. Libertarian flights of fancy to the contrary, the rules of the road haven't changed because someone has implemented a technological means to enforce said law. I know that the joke (and the practice) has always been that "green means go, red means stop, yellow means go very fast," but you maintain safe following distances and obey the traffic signals while driving. Elementary stuff.

You can't fault the person stopping at a red light for, um, stopping.

____________________________

Recursive blogwhore.

Andy, i'm not disagreeing with you on the virtues of good driving. I am saying that someone who may otherwise safely (but illegally) go on through may now be inclined to lock up their car so they don't get a ticket. Not unreasonable to conclude since studies show rear-end accidents increase at lights.

Besides, do you abide by the appropriate recommendations for following distance when you're at a red light? If you do, you and I are probably the only people in knoxville who do. i've seen how these people drive.

And, seriously, you pick now to get all 'personal responsibility' on me? Equally funny after your libertarian snit.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

I am sure many stories are missing, but this represents about 5 minutes googling for local news stories on the topic at hand. FWIW

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www3.knoxnews.com/kns/news_columnists/article/0,1406,KNS_359_4534678,00.html

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"Also, #9 has repeatedly claimed that merely increasing light times by 1 second reduces crashes. This report does not say that, it says increased intervals and enforcement measures reduce accidents not one or the other."

Actually, that was me. And the report does say that on page 12.

"Figure 2-4 illustrates the relationship between yellow interval duration and crash frequency. The trend line indicates that crash frequency decreases with increasing yellow duration. ... The trend shown in Figure 2-4 is similar to that noted previously in Figure 2-2 with regard to red-light violations."

Table 2-2 is on page 18 and that's where the 53% figure is shown. It's probably not exactly 53%, but since the study doesn't give the exact number with regards to crashes the newspaper reporter used the 53% figure for red light violations, which the study's authors said was similar.

www.lesjones.com

TN code 55-8-110

as with every other state we have lived in- it is not about when you exit the stupid intersection but when you enter it.

"Big Brother makes you stop on red. So what?"

My complaint is that there are better and safer ways to ensure people are stopping at red lights. Have you ever ended up in your vehicle (traveling the speed limit) and the light turns yellow at a point where you have to either slam on the brakes to stop or slam on the gas pedal to make it through the light before it turns red?

This is common on traffic lights that are timed or lack sensors in the appropriate places. Adding sensors to an intersection greatly improves the safety.

Plus, it takes about $20.00 to create a clear cover for a license plate that makes it impossible for the camera to capture the tag numbers. The problem drivers will be the first to pick up on this.

KTB

Plus, it takes about $20.00 to create a clear cover for a license plate that makes it impossible for the camera to capture the tag numbers. The problem drivers will be the first to pick up on this.

You don't watch Mythbusters, do you?

Episode 73. Speed cameras. None of the coverings worked to defeat a camera even when the vehicle was traveling at 150 MPH. Every license tag was perfectly legible.

Although if the cops catch you with a license plate cover that works, expect to fork over a little bit more than $20. Countermeasures like that would make your car not street legal.

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Recursive blogwhore.

"You don't watch Mythbusters, do you?"

I don't watch TV that much. I do however hang out with engineers, some of whom work at ORNL, and have seen prototypes of devices that can be developed at low costs. I can't say that they have ever been tested, but I'm fairly certain if it were tested it would pass.

KTB

(link...)

Researchers studied the effectiveness of red light cameras in Philadelphia and Virginia Beach.

The Philadelphia study, conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), an industry group, examined red light violations using a two-step approach. First, researchers found that violations dropped by 36% after yellow lights were extended to give drivers more warning that the light was about to turn red. After red light cameras were added, remaining violations dropped by 96%.

"There's a dramatic change in driver behavior when red light cameras are used," says Richard Retting, senior transportation safety engineer for IIHS. "The jury is in on that question."

The Virginia Beach study, conducted by Old Dominion University, examined signal violations at four intersections before red light cameras were installed, while they were operating and after they were removed in 2005. Violations more than tripled by August 2006.

"That's a huge jump," says lead researcher Bryan Porter, an associate professor of psychology at Old Dominion. "The rate of red light running was actually higher" than before the cameras were installed.

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Recursive blogwhore.

From the same article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-02-14-redlightcameras_x.htm

"There is a lot of money to be made with them," says Howard Bass, a Minnesota attorney who successfully challenged Minneapolis' red-light camera system in a case that will be argued before the state Supreme Court next month. "Ultimately, this is an issue that may have to be decided in the court of public opinion rather than courts of law. It's a public policy issue of how much surveillance creep we will tolerate in the 21st century."

KTB

And from the counterpoint to that USA today article: (link...)

He says Albuquerque has issued 80,000 $100 citations in the past 18 months. Those fines went directly to the city as civil fees rather than to the state as motor vehicle violations, he says. Payne, a third-term Republican from Albuquerque, says he's also concerned because of studies showing that rear-end crashes rise when traffic cameras are installed, although more deadly side-impact crashes go down.

An increase in rear-end crashes in some communities immediately following the installation of red-light cameras is usually temporary, says Jeff Agnew, spokesman for the National Campaign to Stop Red Light Running, an advocacy group funded by traffic-camera firms

Best idea I've heard in either of those articles was the idea to increase the red light in all directions after a change.

One of the best arguments we've ever had. Thanks to everyone who participated. :-)

www.lesjones.com

Update from Knoxnews: Red light accident statistics

My thoughts.

KTB

City of Knoxville red light camera statistics:

(link...)

If we multiply 62,000 by $50 per ticket we get $3,100,000. The tally will be less than that due to the warning period at each light but it is still over two million dollars.

So why did the first article state, "Figures from the Knoxville Police Department, read Tuesday to a House subcommittee by McCord, indicate that Redflex got $471,122 from its contract during 2006, while the city of Knoxville got $217,980"?

It's a good question, but as you noted, you don't have all the data. How many of those 62,000 incidents actually resulted in a ticket? And how many of the tickets have been paid? Whether that knocks the tally down to the figures cited in the article, and whether other factors are involved, I don't know. Do you?

And if you don't know, but from your incomplete knowledge your preference is to leap to the assumption that the city, the KPD, the KNS and whoever else have all fudged the numbers and/or conspired to alter previous stories, delete information, hide the files, and cover all the tracks, what does that tell us about you?

Now, again, you could be right. It's possible. But so far, you haven't offered proof. Still, you may have found clues to the vast conspiracy to withold the truth that you are so fervently seeking. Tantalizing as those are, it nonetheless appears that you'll have to keep digging to get the actual evidence to confirm your cityview.

BTW, having doubts about you and your agenda in no way translates to either support of the current city mayor or disagreement with your questioning of the city's motives in installing the cameras (except, I guess, in your mind). The latter, I think, is a valid question to ask. The former...well, if a Madeline Rogero-like person arose to oppose the mayor, I'd vote for her.

But I wouldn't vote for you.

You are probably wondering why the City doesn't tell the traffic department to go to 5 seconds Yellow Lights and 1 or 2 second hold times on cross traffic.

Actually, I'm wondering why you can't admit that you don't know how to count to three.

See the stats I posted re. number of citations, etc. through 12/31/06.

Thank you, Randy, I had, in fact, completely slipped over your post. From a quick glance at the # of citations collected on, it would appear the $$ totals cited in the KNS are accurate.

But I guess, to satisfy the ninentity, we must assume those numbers have been falsified?

"What am I running for?"

Any chance it is the state line? :-)

"When did the Redflex system go online? Late 2006."

Randy's posted stats show they started working in May. But you've first got to assume Randy isn't part of the vast 'fill-in-the-blank' wing conspiracy and to believe May isn't late 2006.

Did I write that the Sentinel "fudged" the numbers? No, I did not. The point was that the Sentinel for some reason chose to print only the 2006 data. When did the Redflex system go online? Late 2006.

Yeah, yeah, I know. You never, ever make any wild claims or accusations. You just ask questions. Just like you never accused the city of anti-Semitism, just asked if it was. BTW, when did you stop beating your wife? But to the point, if the 2006 data is all that's available, what other data would the KNS use?

Your defense of all things journalistic is curious. Are you saying that the Sentinel is objective in it's reporting on the Redflex cameras?

I'm not defending all things journalistic. I'm questioning your balance. Speaking of, no, I don't think the KNS is "objective" in its reporting on red light cameras. "Objective" is not really a journalistic standard. "Fair and balanced" is. I don't know whether it has been fair and balanced. I don't dispute that the KNS generally goes easy on both sets of govs, never have.

I still cannot find the Sentinel article that refers to the over two million dollars collected. Neither could you. It is curious but not proof of foul play. The point is there is a big difference between $471,122 collected and over $2,000,000 collected.

The point is, I don't know that there was a KNS article referring to $2 mil collected. You believe there is, so it's up to you to produce it. If it's not on line, go to the library and dig through the old issues until you find it. Unless, of course, Ragsdale is in on the conspiracy too, and has ordered the damning library copies destroyed.

Mr. Mean, do you think the Yellow Lights should be changed to 5 seconds? Or would you prefer they remain the way they are?

If there is substansive evidence that changing their cycle to five seconds would decrease accidents, and barring other factors, I have no problem with the change.

IIRC, Redflex gets their share even if a ticket isn't paid by the car owner.

136 rear-end crashes and ONLY 1 of them attributed to red-light cameras? Who is the attributer, er decider?

Y'know, I'd think that it generally & logically holds that the driver of the following car is intent on running the red light, thereby causing the collision with the vehicle stopping on red. (Stopping on red? What a concept!)

That's the legal standard that the following driver would have to overcome. My guess is that someone paid a lawyer to get out of a traffic ticket, which is how the light was found at fault.

Reviewing the PDF provided by Randy, I guess I'm not surprised that there were about 60 violations per day at Western & Broadway. That's an incredibly busy (and wide) intersection.

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Recursive blogwhore.

Do lawmakers in Blount County ever deal with real problems? How do you know what the motives are of anyone including the city unless you are a mind reader or were in on conversations. If you are against fining people if they break laws because the city gets the fine what do you propose, jail?. The idea is to cut down on people running red lights and putting people in danger of getting killed. It is a real problem. I have lived here ten years and never gotten a ticket for running a red light and I have been going into some of these red light intersections every day since they started. My boy friend has been hit in the drivers side by some idiot running a red light and spent a month in the hospital. The numbers say that this has worked and there are not as many crashes so just who is hurt. Just obey the freaking laws, period. Stop before you turn on red and stop if it turns yellow. If you are near the intersection you have no problem making it on time. As for the timing of how many seconds I have to figure that adding seconds to yellow makes traffic back up. They said they did not change any yellows for this. If it makes money then that is OK. I hope redfex goes broke and nobody runs any red lights and I dont have to worry about getting killed.

I rest my case.

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Recursive blogwhore.

Silly me, I had always thought that the sensible time for yellow light duration should be calculated from average driver reaction time coupled with the speed limit for the thoroughfare being controlled. Having a short red light for all directions would also increase safety but folks are too impatient to tolerate that.

I think, too, that if safety were the top priority as stated, these traffic cams would have gone up in school zones first. Maybe they could slow down some of those speeding school buses.

The Hill Online

Nobody has yet mentioned that the Senate bill regulating the cameras is numbered "666".

I guess Satan is letting us know, that he has his grubby little boney fingers in Tennessee Politics. So I ask! If the bill is defeated does this mean Satan has been defeated, being that it is his number and all! or... If the bill is passed, has Satan been defeated? Oh that tricky little...

Adrift in the Sea of Humility

dude's a boob, man: (link...)

So much for Mike's..oops...digits "sky is falling!!!!!"

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Very simple: Run a red light you get a ticket. Don't run a red light don't get a ticket. I have yet to see Mikes "proof" that the city of Knoxville lowered the yellow light count to gain more revenue. Stay in Farragut and run all the red lights you want digit boy.