Sat
Apr 3 2010
11:57 pm
By: michael kaplan

bizgrrl's picture

Is this where homeless people

Is this where homeless people store their belongings? Are they to assume the belongings will be there when they return? How expensive would it be to have lockers available?

Somebody's picture

This response is interesting

This response is interesting to me. Why stop at the superficial solution? The photo suggests that some homeless people seem not to have a good place to store their worldly belongings. The response? Lockers! Problem solved! The peasants have no bread? Let them eat cake!

It would seem that the real solution to homelessness is housing. A blanket or a tent or a cot in a shelter or a hot bowl of soup should surely only be a stopgap response. Why not take the bull by the horns and help people find permanent housing and help them find a way to stay there? Then maybe their world doesn't need to fit in a locker.

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"Why not take the bull by the horns and help people find permanent housing and help them find a way to stay there?"

People do want a permanent solution that is sustainable.

Doesn't that require sobriety? So how can any plan that doesn't include sobriety be sustainable?

Somebody's picture

A sobering thought

I imagine having your whole world in a backpack stuffed in an alcove would be very sobering indeed. Nah. More likely it would just drive you drink. Hmmmm.

Andy Axel's picture

any plan that doesn't include

any plan that doesn't include sobriety

Asked and answered, yet you persist in this fiction.

Next.

bizgrrl's picture

The response? Lockers! There

The response? Lockers!

There have been homeless in the area in Knoxville for 30-40-50 years. TYP has been working on a "long-term" solution for 5 years. A temporary and much less expensive solution for the 700 people that will not be served in the next five years would be, at a minimum, to have lockers for them to store their belongings. Somebody doesn't care for the immediate needs?

michael kaplan's picture

it's more than bizarre that

it's more than bizarre that those waiting to enter KARM at 4 pm have to congregate on a narrow sidewalk on broadway rather than wait in the spacious parking lot around the side of the building. and who designed that mean main entry to the facility on broadway? and are they really unaware of the storage niche? and where's the city 'coordination' of all of this? i see police on bicycles patrolling the area, so the city has to know, more or less, what is going on ..

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

I think your fund raising efforts just went south.

Somebody's picture

Unique new dog park planned for West Knox County

(link...)

(link...)

Woof!

Knox County is seemingly prepared to spend $100,000 per acre for a dog park, but $85,000 per acre to house the homeless, not so much.

whooshe65's picture

House the Homeless

Metulj,

Your term, "house the homeless" is kind of the problem. Simply housing the homeless does not fix the addiction, mental illness, medical, social reintegration and spiritual needs of the homeless.

The Haven for Hope program in San Antonio Texas, appears to have come to the conclusion that "Housing First" does not work. They studied 200 different shelter programs from around the country, and picked the Best Practices of those programs to use when creating their “Transformational Campus” program.

You might want to check them out, and then decide if to “house the homeless” is really the best option for the homeless in Knoxville.

Their site is: (link...)

Happy Easter

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"I fully support dispersed permanently supportive housing solutions for the homeless."

A very progressive idea from Bill Haslam, the progressive choice for Governor.

What does your statement mean? That you support putting addicts out of sight and out of mind so they can continue their drug addiction in apartments rather than on the street? A better plan is ending addiction. Does dispersed permanently supportive housing actually do that? Studies say it doesn't. HUD says there are serious problems.

Housing addicts isn't treating addicts with a goal to sobriety. Treatment is the key and it isn't part of permanently supportive housing solutions. If it were the Seattle Plan wouldn't be the failure it is.

(link...)

rikki's picture

A better plan is ending

A better plan is ending addiction.

Also, free ponies and candy-coated rainbows for everyone!

sugarfatpie's picture

Seems like solving the

Seems like solving the housing problem would make it easier to do everything else you are talking about (addiction, mental illness, medical, social reintegration and spiritual needs of the homeless).

Not solving that problem makes it much harder to do anything else.

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"Seems like solving the housing problem would make it easier to do everything else you are talking about (addiction, mental illness, medical, social reintegration and spiritual needs of the homeless).

Not solving that problem makes it much harder to do anything else."

I agreed with that a few months ago. Not so much now. The Arnstein meeting was a wake up call.

There is some common sense thinking to the idea of getting them off the streets to stabilize them and get them into therapeutic addiction services. The problem is that does not happen. They continue their addiction and receive little to no therapy for their addiction. One reason is money. Addiction therapy is expensive. The other reason is they are addicted. Without a requirement for addiction therapy what do you think will happen? Housing First has serious problems. There are many studies that show this.

The other method is the linear approach. From what I have researched, it is the more effective plan long term and the more cost effective plan.

Any of the following papers will demonstrate the problems with the Housing First Plan:

(link...)

Click on the writers name for the PDF paper.

michael kaplan's picture

i agree, but i can't imagine

i agree, but i can't imagine 'social reintegration' taking place on debusk lane, or similar suburban site.

whooshe65's picture

Seems like Solving-

If you don’t deal with addiction, you can’t find permanent solutions for the vast majority of the Homeless. A study from the VA in Birmingham states:

We believe that our present knowledge is incomplete with regard to housing persons with active addiction and that there is a risk of overreach, given the popular claims made on behalf of Housing First.

Link:
(link...)

The evidence is now showing that the Housing First theory is just that, theory. Although short term housing percentages for Housing First seem promising, after 2-3 years, the housing retention rates are no more than traditional Linear approach’s.

Refer to the San Antonio Texas “Haven For Hope” program to see a different style of program that uses Intensive Case Management, and a “Housing Third” philosophy.

Link: (link...)

Bill Lyons's picture

Housing First is the dominant approach among US cities.

Housing First is the dominant approach among US cities in dealing with chronic homelessness. It is the one that Knoxville and Knox County chose and endorsed after a long study period a few years ago. Like any other approach it has its advocates and detractors. Once one gets into the academic line of discussion the advocates and detractors often do so on the basis of a greater world view. Here,as the authors of the cited Columbia piece make clear. “In addition, the two paradigms are easily mapped onto contrasting social messages (e.g., “housing is a human right” and “treatment works *”), both of which can have a useful political effect.”

If one holds any approach to a social problem to a bar so high as “All problems for all affected groups are not universally met” or “there are no issues with all subgroups” or “it might not work for all people” then, of course we do nothing, or, rather, we default to the pure emergency shelter approach that, while necessary as a component of any linear approach, is a recipe for continued cycle of failure for human beings and great expense to taxpayers and citizens. Whatever doubts about the efficacy of the housing first model chosen locally might be, they apply to all approaches including the status quo approach. Whatever costs are associated with the housing first approach exist in equal or greater degree with other approaches (San Antonio's is very expensive and unproven). Hence so many communities have chosen this approach and hence both the Bush and Obama HUD offices have supported it.

As Kertesz et al, (cited here as if taking some sort of position in favor of one approach or another) make clear, any community is going to be disappointed if it makes unrealistic claims on the success of the program they use. See below.

“...communities in which they find themselves, rarely pursue just one objective (housing versus recovery). No community is obligated to offer only one form of intervention, and we suggest that it would be harmful for communities to constrain themselves in that fashion..... Researchers and other stakeholders should acknowledge the limitations of what has been shown to date through research and consider the risks of overreach when extending either linear or Housing First approaches to populations for which the data are, at present, insufficient. Not to do so risks long-term disappointment should a program’s results fail to match the public’s expectations.”

* Housing First for Homeless Persons with Active Addiction: Are We Overreaching?
STEFAN G. KERTESZ, KIMBERLY CROUCH, JESSE B. MILBY, ROBERT E. CUSIMANO, and JOSEPH E. SCHUMACHER: Milbank Quarterly, Vol. 87, No. 2, 2009  p. 525.

As interesting as an academic in exile like me finds theoretical battling in academic journals and appreciates the role of Google in making these arguments accessible, the reality is that we will open one site later in the year (Minvilla) and on Tuesday Council will consider approving expenditure of the final funding piece from among federal funds already appropriated for that purpose (Flenniken). The construction and operating of the purely residential component of each of these structures will cash flow without any local taxpayer funds, funded by private equity and programs set up expressly for low income housing. Low income residents will bring with them vouchers to pay the cost of operating the residence.

The residents will live in a facility staffed 24/7 and will have caseworkers on site during the week to help them get the medical and counseling care that will enable them to lead productive lives. VMC will provide the caseworkers. That is the major expense, and that will reflect their movement from emergency shelter to primarily housing as the TYP has effectively worked with all providers to align services. They have instituted the HMIS (Homeless Management Information System) and set in place a system that will provide hope to human beings, remove burdens from emergency providers, hospitals, etc.

Residents are already eligible for Medicaid, Tenncare, and other programs. They will pay for their own food and clothing from among sources that any resident of low income housing does. Some will be employed and obviously will make use of these resources. Caseworkers will make sure they access these services. Without permanent housing none of this is possible. Nobody much argues with that. The different approaches deal with the nature of the housing provided to some at different stages and at what point a person enters permanent supportive housing -- during the treatment cycle or at the beginning to support it.

The scattered site approach, based on involving the private sector, is a key part of this approach. It rejects large, government operated institutional approaches that have failed in other housing settings (Pruit Igoe solutions do not work!).

The underlying metric on all of this – permanent supportive housing with responsibility put on the resident - is personal responsibility. The residents of permanent supportive housing will have to live up to a personal contract or be asked to leave. Personal responsibility is the hallmark of the COK's public policy in the last few years.. legislation against aggressive panhandling and the sit and lie ordinance supplemented with provision of much better space with behavioral requirements. These have provided improvement, marginal as it might be, to a situation that had spun completely out of control and was sapping lives without providing any element of hope.

Every one of these initiatives has had and will have significant opposition, some based on ideology, some on some other less grounded principles, some based on mistrust, and some based on whatever activates a person to object - other agendas involving some of the parties, dislike of the folks currently in office, etc. It is just not possible, or desirable, to tackle anything as difficult as this problem without engaging public disagreement and debate and it really does not matter what animates the disagreement.

For better or worse we have to deal with this issue. Ever since the the society moved against the notion of involuntary institutionalization local governments have been led to bear the burden of national and state inaction. We simply must call on the better angels of our nature to address it.

fischbobber's picture

"We simply must call on the

"We simply must call on the better angels of our nature to address it."

With all due respect Dr. Lyons, I would submit that that is exactly what is happening here. While it is common human nature to fear the unknown, for the last several weeks the focus of this debate has been, "How to we make this work?" What is becoming increasingly clear is that without transparency on the provider side there is more than a small chance that the TYP will face increasing opposition from the public. In my opinion this opposition is justified.

The arrogance of the TYP administrators is inexcusable, especially in light of the fact that every community has a different set of variables and every neighborhood has a different set of parameters that must be met in order for such housing to be effective in any given situation. Variables such as sidewalks, covered bus stops and green way access are not bargaining chips, they are essential pieces of the puzzle necessary to make these plans work. Easy access to groceries, medical facilities, and support services is vital, not optional. As planners your commitment has to got to be cost effective, and as community members we must recognize that nothing is free. Just because nothing is free though, does not mean that we should grant a blank check for the homeless initiative. To date, virtually no one involved with the ten year plan has shown the least concern for any affected neighborhood, either by offering infrastructure planning that would be an improvement or by coming up with a real plan as to integrating these shelters in the everyday workings of a neighborhood.

The reason liquor store issues keep popping up is, among other things, many of us have had personal dealings with alcoholism and recognize that enabling people with this condition is not an effective form of treatment. When liquor stores are more convenient than grocery stores, we view this as a value judgement by those in charge, that is to say they care neither for the sheltered nor the neighborhoods.

Finally, the monetary accounting procedures, including full disclosure of salaries, capital and ongoing expenditures are going to have to be opened up to public scrutiny. As of now, there has been no evidence that that anyone involved with the TYP is operating with good faith and at this point it is up to your people to earn this trust. The days of the condescending snow jobs need to be replaced with a little hard work and open dialogue. Public money, be it local, state or federal is money that the people of the effected neighborhoods have paid into the system, they have a moral right to know where it's going, regardless of the structure of the corporation controlling those funds. Like it or not, first and foremost, right now we're all wondering what you guys are trying to hide and why it is worth this much effort.

whooshe65's picture

Wow. That's a English 101 sentence if I have ever seen one.

Really, is that the best you can do?

whooshe65's picture

'"No. It's all I need to do....."

Insult people you don't know?

bizgrrl's picture

... every community has a

... every community has a different set of variables and every neighborhood has a different set of parameters that must be met in order for such housing to be effective in any given situation.
...
When liquor stores are more convenient than grocery stores,
...
full disclosure of salaries, capital and ongoing expenditures are going to have to be opened up to public scrutiny

I think these are valid points to be discussed.

whooshe65's picture

I believe fischbobber was

I believe fischbobber was referring to the fact, that the two TYP target sites on the West Side were A) One block away from a Liquor Store and B) Across the Street from a Wiegels Convenience Store. In both instances, the Chronically Homeless would have to walk by each of the stores, every time they left or returned to their apartments.

By the way, your statement:

There is no reason think that liquor stores follow the homeless

Wow. That's a English 101 sentence if I have ever seen one

fischbobber's picture

I was referring to the liquor

I was referring to the liquor stores at the west knoxville locations. The housing is being poorly planned and placed. One doesn't build housing for a populace group with a high incidence of alcoholism next to liquor stores unless one intends to ignore that problem.

I'm fairly certain my grammar is correct, even on complex sentences. I acknowledge that simplification may help me reach a larger audience. I'll keep that in mind.

You bring up an interesting point on KARM, VMC, etc. The TYP plan's business model is not dependent on public funds in order to be viable, at least as best as I can figure with the shadowy numbers available. Were they to go to private funding like a KARM or VMC, much of this discussion would disappear. Of course then they couldn't swim in cash.

fischbobber's picture

How much does KARM's CEO

How much does KARM's CEO make? It's six figures.

Privately funded I might add.

What are the salaries of the people at the top of the TYP programs? That's public money.

Try to keep in mind that I am an accidental activist. I toured a site and made some obvious observations. I didn't start digging around until Mr. Finley attacked my observations. Without infrastructure improvements around any site , I doubt this plan will be effective in this town. To me the issue is not whether to meet the needs of the homeless, but rather how to be effective and cost efficient at doing so.598aH

michael kaplan's picture

What are the salaries of the

What are the salaries of the people at the top of the TYP programs?

As I recall, Jon Lawler, director of the Ten Year Plan, is receiving about $60,000 from the city. He may still be on the payroll at Lawler-Wood. I don't know whether he has current financial connections with Wood Construction (contractor on the Minvilla project), Wood Properties or the Southeast Housing Foundation. He has made significant contributions to Republican candidates in the 2008 election cycle.

edens's picture

Were they to go to private

Were they to go to private funding like a KARM or VMC, much of this discussion would disappear. Of course then they couldn't swim in cash.

"Knox Area Rescue Ministries, according to the IRS, has annual revenues of $6.5 million."

(link...)

smithrob2010's picture

Dear Mr. Lyons,

Dear Mr. Lyons,

You state in the post above-

“the reality is that we will open one site later in the year (Minvilla) and on Tuesday Council will consider approving expenditure of the final funding piece from among federal funds already appropriated for that purpose (Flenniken). The construction and operating of the purely residential component of each of these structures will cash flow without any local taxpayer funds,”

SHF is requesting additional funding to complete the Flenniken Project. According to Mr. Arning’s numerous statements, the cost was projected to be 6 million to complete Flenniken. With the additional $1,150,000 that will be requested on Tuesday, the current estimated total needed to complete Flenniken is $ 7,080,000. If I am not mistaken, at about this point in the development of Minvilla Manor, I believe that the estimated total cost was to be $3,800,000. The current estimate to complete Minvilla Manor is $7,500,000+.
Is this the same kind of under estimating that we can expect from Flenniken?

Also, these additional money’s are coming from HUD programs, CDBG, HOME, and Neighborhood Stabilization Program Grants. To say that these funds are not City Funds is not entirely correct, is it? I mean, it is up to COK to allocate the money where it sees fit. So even though, technically, our Taxes go the IRS, and then to HUD and then back to Knoxville, It is still our money. Please stop saying that it is anything else.

B, Paone's picture

Housing First didn't work for me.

Having a job did. I turned down KARM's offer to enter a program of theirs in 1998 because I would have had to give up my job.

That job got me my first apartment within 26 days. I was washing dishes down at the Hilton.

KARM's program would not have netted an apartment or money within 26 days. I believe the estimated completion time for this particular program was 6-8 weeks. I could not have a job during this time, according to the worker who pitched the idea to me.

I would like to know how the "housing first" model would have helped someone like me accomplish what I did with a job and a cot in 26 days. Then I might be a bit warmer to the idea.

But from here, it looks a lot like a few people who have never been homeless are trying to build an industry for themselves on the backs of the homeless. It doesn't seem like anyone involved with the TYP is really concerned with anything other than pursuing THEIR plan.

Even when someone who's been homeless is telling them it's not going to work as well as helping those that want to work, get work.

Bird_dog's picture

one episode is not chronic

There is a difference between an external situation that causes, usually temporary, homelessness and persistent conditions, like mental illness, that cause frequent, repeated, long-term episodes (chronic) as the TYP targets. Maybe we've learned a few things since 1998...

sobi's picture

The whole "just get a job" meme.

There is a difference between an external situation that causes, usually temporary, homelessness and persistent conditions, like mental illness, that cause frequent, repeated, long-term episodes (chronic) as the TYP targets.

Brian already knows this. He's just into recycling.

B, Paone's picture

Ever been homeless?

I'm curious as to what your basis is for your smartass remark. Perhaps you know more about being homeless than a person who has actually been homeless?

Enlighten me.

B, Paone's picture

Asshole.

Feel better now? I mean, let me know how you kids want to do this. We can have a civil discussion, or we can just do the namecalling thing until I make someone else cry and I get banned again.

Actually, never mind. History already tells me it's going to be the latter anyway, and I really can't sit here and rip on ignorant pricks like you anymore. It doesn't change anything, it just makes me look bad, and all anyone like you wants to do is sit around on some obscure website, preach their opinion (usually ill-founded and poorly researched) and not listen to dissent.

So, go. Have your fun, look down your nose at anyone with a differing viewpoint and enjoy your pseudo-superiority. The end result is the same for all of us, and in the vast majority of cases, all I have to do is wait most of you out anyway and let time deal with you.

Why get bent out of shape? :)

sobi's picture

Enlighten you?

How could that even be possible? You're already an expert on the entire issue of homelessness based solely on your 20+ day homeless experience.

B, Paone's picture

I suppose you know better?

Because all I've seen are pedantic attempts at insult.

It doesn't matter anyway. I could talk until I'm blue in the face; no one's going to listen. It's not in rabid support of this ill-conceived, expensive boondoggle, so concerns of building an industry on the backs of the homeless or creating a system that appears quite easy to manipulate by the enterprising con artist won't be discussed.

No, apparently all they'll attract is childish derision, namecalling and playground nonsense. And any time I play along in that vein, someone gets their feelings hurt and the wife just rolls her eyes.

If you didn't want to discuss the matter, all you had to do was say so like an adult. Best of luck to you, and I'll be praying for your kids double-time.

B, Paone's picture

Let's skip the BS.

Unless all you want to do is make patently stupid comments like "HURR ALL THESE OPPONENTS WANT TO DO IS KEEP HOMELESS PEOPLE OUT OF HEAVEN DURRR".

Seriously. People wonder all the damn time why I'm such a jerk, but it seems like everybody else gets to be.

Eh, skip it. Let's get to brass tacks.

* How are the potential beneficiaries of a housing first program going to pay for their housing without jobs? Let me guess: Welfare for all? I haven't heard one thing about work programs - it's as if the TYP folks expect almost everyone to be on disability or some other form of welfare for primary income. (Hey, for shits and giggles, how 'bout not being a completely offish prick when/if you answer, eh?)

* How big of a beneficiary population increase would the TYP folks be planning for in the future? If you build it, they will come - and usually from other cities. (PLEASE tell me you're not one of those idiots who firmly believes we don't have a problem with other areas of the country sending homeless here.) Also, where's the money coming from to cover these present and future beneficiaries?

* Why are we so all-fired ready to roar ahead with all of these different housing projects when the flagship project - Minvilla Manor - hasn't been even FINISHED yet, let alone proven to work or at LEAST show promise of working? Do you really believe it makes fiscal sense to put all of our eggs into one basket, especially a suspect basket like this?

* How difficult is it to scam the programs being considered for offering? I mean, we're talking drug addicts and professional panhandlers here. They're actually better at getting what they want than politicians are, and we can't even handle politicians safely in this 'burg.

* What "mental illnesses" and "addictions", specifically, will we be paying to treat? I don't mind taxpayer funds going to help, say, an actual schizo or someone with an IQ under 80 (70? What's the line nowadays for bona-fide idiocy, and what's the over/under on some witty Woody Allen wannabe trying to turn that question into a pathetic attempt at an insult?)

* And finally - what the HELL are we doing to either convert the able-bodied bums into productive members of society while we're arguing back and forth about this?!

Well? Is that better for your delicate sensitivities?

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"If being compassionate is having "delicate sensitivities," I can live with it."

How is enabling drug addiction compassionate? That isn't compassion.

The Ten Year Plan is very weak on goals to sobriety. No sobriety, no future. The linear approach is superior in results to sobriety.

Isn't the main appeal of the Ten Year Plan to you the fantasy of seeing one of these in what you call "Brick Shitbox Land"? I'm guessing that is far west of Westmoreland.

You seem more interested in some twisted payback than in helping the homeless.

Why is it none of you in 37917 have demanded that the KPD place an officer at the bus station to enforce vagrancy laws as they step off the bus? With 49% of the homeless from out of state you have to wonder why they keep coming? Are they recruited?

Seattle built 12,000 of these and when they were finished there were more homeless than when they began. Is that a Housing First accomplishment?

They need to go back to the drawing board. The problem isn't getting better and this plan doesn't address sobriety.

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"It does address sobriety."

I have read the Ten Year Plan completely. So far there is little about sobriety.

Although tonight in City Council that may change. Will the Ten Year Plan have the Teaberry cost Proforma tonight? Will there be an elaborate presentation? Or will they request a thirty day continuance and seek a quieter time? Who will they push off the needed therapeutic addiction services on? Helen Ross McNabb? VMC? TenCare? Medicaid? Expect to see some big time cost shifting. "Trust us, we're professionals".

The daily paper should have investigated this plan rather than being blind cheerleaders. In the end regular people brought to light how little detail there is in the Ten Year Plan. But to you everything is a wedge issue. A conspiracy. So your mileage may vary.

Tune it tonight on Channel 6 or 12 depending on your cable provider.

(link...)

Andy Axel's picture

"Just Asking Questions!"

Will the Ten Year Plan have the Teaberry cost Proforma tonight? Will there be an elaborate presentation? Or will they request a thirty day continuance and seek a quieter time? Who will they push off the needed therapeutic addiction services on? Helen Ross McNabb? VMC? TenCare? Medicaid?

"JAQ"ing off again, I see.

B, Paone's picture

Point by point:

"That's the point though. The "It cost too much" or "It doesn't work" bullshit is just cruft around the debate about what is to be done. The folks who are most against HF are also, when pushed, against helping the homeless in general. Why? NIMBY and LULU. It boils down to guts and reactions in thereof."

***

Don't you think you might be presenting your opinion as fact? Unless, of course, you're The Shadow. (Points if you get the reference.)

-

"I think that your constant mention of your short homeless period as qualifying as expertise doesn't help. There are, at any moment in the US, ~700,000 experts."

***

And my experience is less valid than any of theirs... how? Because I actually got out of homelessness in, at least I am repeatedly told, relatively quick fashion? Hell, you'd think a successful experience might carry a little more weight than a quick dismissal because you don't believe it falls within a certain set of conditions.

Live and learn, I guess.

-

"That's covered in the study that Numbnuts9 posted. Yes, it does include money from "welfare." These folks are disabled. It's how the system works. We aren't talking about people shopping for doctors to get a disability check."

***

But all that's been discussed is welfare and disability money. I haven't seen word ONE about helping any of the target beneficiaries find work, regardless of whether they wanted to or not. Perhaps you can correct me if record of such a discussion exists.

Surely all 2,000 aren't COMPLETELY unable to fend for themselves. Actually, I'm willing to bet more than a few can work for theirs. They might even want to. That HAS been considered, yes?

-

"Physician, heal thyself. Haven't you been banned from Knoxviews.com? That's the functional equivalent of being asked to leave a Nuremburg rally for talking too loud."

***

Hooray, we're both assholes. I'm just better at it than you are. Moving on.

-

"49% of the homeless are from out of the area. "It" has already been built by the IBMs of homelessness on Broadway at Fifth Ave."

***

So the answer in your eyes, then, is to build even cushier programs based on assisting people with, among other unnamed maladies, any one of a number of mental illnesses that may or may not be easy to fake. (Everyone and their mother can pass for bipolar, for example.)

And you don't see more coming? How do we deal with an increase in the population this program was meant to serve? More dispersed housing? How many people does the project intend to serve over the first decade after implementation? What if they go over that target amount? Where's the money going to come from after all the one-time funds are gone and the program starts growing?

How does this FIX the problem of other areas sending us their homeless instead of making it WORSE?

-

"I still haven't seen an argument that shows that it is "suspect" backed by research. Like I said, either the "jury is out" or "it works as well as anything else at the same cost" is the conclusion of every unread study posted here by the most rabid and suspect opponents.

As for Minvilla, it is a complete shame it has taken as long as it has. No doubt about it. But good old fashioned Knoxville politics had nothing to do with that? Now did it?"

***

It's our government, so it's our responsibility if/when it falters. Anyway, point was why not try the program at Minvilla first, and THEN try spreading out all over creation if the program actually works well enough? Why whole hog, right now, with so many important questions still unanswered?

-

"Load question. Point question at issue. Fire.

Again, if you actually dig into linear AND housing first literature and methodologies, they have ways of handling all this and these ways have good to great outcomes."

***

And a textbook political dodge. Question still stands, unfortunately, and which of these esteemed methods does the TYP intend to implement... if any?

-

"Many people with mental health problems, especially profound ones, self medicate. Heroin, for example, suppresses hallucinations, especially auditory ones."

...that didn't even come close to answering the question. Yes, drug abuse and mental illness are quite commonly found together. That doesn't say anything about which specific ailments and maladies the TYP intends to combat. Do you happen to know anything about this? I ask because the TYP is, not surprisingly, pretty vague on the subject. Sex addiction, gambling, fixations on Jennifer Garner, what are the taxpayers paying to treat?

-

"We aren't talking about able-bodied bums. We are talking about people with diseases."

***

That's a two-pronger - the first being "You'd be pretty damned surprised what some mentally ill people can accomplish in society" because it's simply IGNORANT to think of EVERY mentally ill person as being invalids (or even a majority, really).

The second? "Isn't it a little on the discriminatory side to focus on helping only one class of homeless without helping all of them?"

I mean, you're Mr. Compassionate, right?

-

"If being compassionate is having "delicate sensitivities," I can live with it."

***

Well, at least YOU think you are. Maybe that's all that counts. Or maybe this whole idea's not as solid as you'd like us to think.

B, Paone's picture

I take it you're done, then?

If I have to act like an adult, I'll be damned if I converse with someone acting like a kid. Frankly, it's pretty disappointing that you ran into questions you couldn't answer and then decided to pull a Mike Mitchell - insults and condescension, insults and condescension.

Oh, and dubious "facts". Like "Most homeless people have jobs...". Really? Cite?

Sorry, my bad. You've given up on this and won't be taking any more questions, since you failed to answer the previous set for whatever reason. Right?

Let me know if you find the answers, though. I've been looking for a while and can't seem to find acceptable answers myself, so don't feel bad if you don't find any.

Oh... and no offense, but it's also difficult to reconcile your opinion that I'm a "tragedy" given what I've accomplished for myself and my family having started in this town with literally nothing but a hospital gown and a pair of torn, bloody jeans.

YOU might not think it's a set of accomplishments of which to be proud, and you know what? I'm glad you don't.

It means you never had to experience it and succeed against those kinds of obstacles. Have you?

Wait, sorry, never mind. I forgot you're not answering any more questions.

B, Paone's picture

...you sure about that?

* For starters, I never said MY experience is the ONLY experience that should be counted. Did I? Or did YOU say I said/felt/thought that? Whose values are assigned to my words - mine or yours?

* Why? Because I overcame my set of circumstances within a month of my arrival in Knoxville? Since you seem to know my story as well as I do, exactly which circumstances in my particular instance do not cohere? (I don't disagree that there are; I'm just curious as to what, specifically, you believe doesn't mesh.)

* ...you sure about that? No, really, are you? Have you seen my mental health records from the state? My juvenile record? Did you know I had both? (Beg pardon for one aside to someone else: Go run and tell your boy Hutch, Mitchell. There's a damn fine reason for it, and I can't WAIT to get attacked for it.)

* Are you ever going to get back to the questions I asked, or have you given up on answering them in favor of elitist condescension?

If so, can I start calling ya Chipmunk Jr.? Or will that hurt your feelings?

Let me know if you want to have a serious, respectful conversation on the topic. Or we can just do this, whatever.

B, Paone's picture

"Didn't really ask?"

* Curious, but isn't a sentence a question when it's phrased as an inquiry and includes a question mark at the end? If so, there are SEVERAL in the previous responses that you missed.

If not, I have been grossly misinformed on the concept of asking a question. I mean, through all of school in multiple states as well as in every relevant personal experience up to and including today.

If those experiences are worth anything to you, anyway.

* Fine. How about "condescending faceless anonymous person"? "Individual who is would rather make poor attempts at being glib rather than discussing the issue"? "Person who would rather redefine the concept of 'question' rather than answer the ones presented above"?

Personally, I'd prefer "rational individual who wants to discuss the topic rather than engage in pedantic internet nonsense", because that would mean I can show you the same courtesy. Being an offish prick is hard work, and we stopped discussing the issue a long time ago to do this instead. Whee, productive.

But all that is really in your hands, isn't it. (See, that wasn't a question. It was more of a rhetorical statement, as evidenced by the punctuation at the end of said statement.)

* Wrong. Would you care to discuss it sometime? I don't mind my address or phone number out there on the intertubes, but if I wanted my personal records plastered all over the place I'd have done it myself.

Or are my plebeian experiences still beneath your notice because YOU don't feel them "germane"?

B. Paone's picture

What?

Now they're not questions because you say they're not questions? We must not be talking about the same questions. Let me repeat them for you:

* How are the potential beneficiaries of a housing first program going to pay for their housing without jobs? Welfare alone? If not, what job programs are being discussed?

- * Sub-question: Who's going to be managing the funds of the targeted beneficiaries? What's the risk exposure for doing so?

* How big of a beneficiary population increase would the TYP folks be planning for in the future? Let's say, 3-5 years from when they plan on opening the first complex.

* Why are we rushing ahead with multiple sites when we haven't even completed and tested one?

* How difficult is it to scam the programs being considered for offering, and what specific methods does the TYP prescribe for dealing with such attempts?

* What specific conditions and illnesses will the taxpayers be expected to treat?

* How much will this cost to fund after our Fed money is gone? How much is that cost expected to grow? How much is this SYSTEM expected to grow?

...oh, and as to your smartass little comment about not learning to avoid victimization: I don't give a damn what you think, because all I have to do is look around me to see what the reality of the situation is.

The reality is, I did something right when I took back control over my own life - worked for mine, didn't panhandle or beg or rely on anyone else to pick up my slack, took that responsibility for MYSELF, etc. - and I learned that finally through the rock-bottom of homelessness. I've got the house, car, and tons of material crap to show for it, but more importantly, I have those important lessons as well.

That's not being a victim. That's being a success. Agree or disagree?

Maybe you should take a crack at the questions above as well and see if you can break your streak of being the World's Worst Elitist(tm).

sobi's picture

Disconnect.

You say you want to converse, but your actions here indicate that you want to pontificate and project. The fact that you keep churning your story even though it's not relevant, and the fact that you engage in all this nya-nya back and forth reinforce the impression that you're not sincere. metulj has engaged you in a substantive discussion. You just don't seem interested in hearing anyone else.

You probably do have something to offer this dialog, but not if you think of it as an argument you need to win.

B, Paone's picture

Doesn't seem like it.

Especially with the lack of jobs being discussed in the TYP. Seems like the only source of income these social workers are targeting is disability. Is it, or will there be work programs?

If so, what will the scope of these work programs be?

If not, why?

I'm sorry, but what I hear is a bunch of people who haven't been homeless acting like they know what's what. I don't see how a person can claim they know something they've never experienced.

sobi's picture

Yep.

I don't see how a person can claim they know something they've never experienced.

That's what I said to my oncologist right before I fired him when he told me he'd never experienced the same malignant melanoma the know-nothing was telling me how I needed to treat.

Anonymously Nine's picture

how ironical

metulj's inner Id, "I think solipsism is such an attractive position. I wonder why more people don't believe it."

(link...)

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

I'm making fun of you genius. For you to call anyone a solipsist is gold medal pot and kettle material. Is there a more extreme egocentric than you?

journalist's picture

"Finally, the monetary

"Finally, the monetary accounting procedures, including full disclosure of salaries, capital and ongoing expenditures are going to have to be opened up to public scrutiny."

Herein lies the rub.

In fact, it reminds me of this recent piece of investigative journalism:

Looting Main Street
How the nation's biggest banks are ripping off American cities with the same predatory deals that brought down Greece
(link...)

Do read it. It's a doozy.

fischbobber's picture

The money issue has stood out

The money issue has stood out from the time I started looking at this issue.

Three hundred thousand for the Teaberry land seemed hard to believe. Still does. The corporate structure and non profit status of the numerous groups involved with the TYP seem to be a great way to get around the Sunshine law and keep the general public away from the books, but not in the taxpayers best interest.

The refusal of the TYP officials to consider infrastructure also signals money problems. I'm currently wondering if this present fast tracking is anything more than a ploy to cash in on stimulus moneys. When the short term funding dries up, who will be stuck holding the bill to pay for the ongoing expenses of this project? Haslam is leaving. What does he care?

I am also curious as to whether these construction projects are paying their workers prevailing wages ( as is often a requirement with public money) or are they driving down the prevailing wage by paying below that level. Without open books, it's hard to know just exactly how these people are operating.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Done properly, housing first can benefit the neighborhoods it locates in and the Knoxville community as a whole. With our greenway system and local climate we already have a cheap, mostly completed transportation infrastructure system in place. I don't think that the solutions to homelessness are out of reach and impossible, but I do think the present people in charge are either incompetent, lazy, corrupt, or just too plain arrogant and full of themselves to make this plan work. At least that's the image they're portraying.

Rachel's picture

The corporate structure and

The corporate structure and non profit status of the numerous groups involved with the TYP seem to be a great way to get around the Sunshine law

I don't think you understand how the "Sunshine Law" works. More properly called the Open Meetings Act, it says that two or more members of a legislative body cannot deliberate in private.

That applies to City Council. It does NOT apply to members of City administration, nor the non-public bodies involved in homeless housing. Nor does it have anything to do with how much info is released to the public.

Not saying that it should be difficult for people to get info on the TYP. It shouldn't. At the Council meeting tonight, I saw more than one question side-stepped. Council members didn't press tho, which they should.

fischbobber's picture

By taking the Ten Year Plans

By taking the Ten Year Plans building projects private it has allowed discussion to be carried on and lobbying to occur legally in private, as long as only one legislative member is present at any given time. It makes things more organized.

The money, however, continues to flow from the taxpayers.

We are in agreement on getting info from the TYP.S+G*Z

michael kaplan's picture

it is a good article - not

it is a good article - not unexpected from matt taibbi, one of the best investigative journalists in the country. he writes:

the world's grandest toilet — "the Taj Mahal of sewer-treatment plants" is how one county worker put it

knoxville is actually building one of these on bernard off no. central street, just down the block from "downtown north." it's in its third year of construction, surely one of the biggest (in complexity and cost) projects in town.

KnoxCatLady's picture

B.Paone Comments

While I do not know B.Paone I do think it is wrong to be dismissive of the opinion of one who has experienced homelessness, even for a "brief" period. Regardless of how brief it might have been, I doubt that made it any less lonely, easier, or pleasant in any way.

One reason I enjoy this kind of forum is precisely because of the differing views and people frequently have strongly held opinions, but it is always certainly nice when people can discuss them intelligently and while being civil.

B.Paone has, in my opinion, several valid questions, as well as personal experience. In watching the City Council meeting tonight, I saw a plethora of "experts" all tell us everything we wanted to know about the homeless as well much we likely didn't care to know. One speaker said the point of placing numerous facilities for the chronically homeless in neighborhoods was to re-integrate them into society. Personally, I should think enabling them to get back on their feet and support themselves to be the full measure of any such re-integration.

Councilwoman Roddy seemed to be claiming that the bottom line expenses would be less for police, fire, hospitalization, etc., by building numerous facilities. I thought that a remarkable thing to say and it is preposterous on the face of it. The City of Knoxville will never spend one dime less on those services than we do now. Nor did I hear exactly what those savings will be and I feel quite confident in saying Councilwoman Roddy couldn't cite any figure to support her claim either.

Somebody's picture

For argument's sake, let's

For argument's sake, let's take your premise for analysis. Let's say there are no direct monetary savings in police costs. There are still the same number of police officers on patrol. Even with that assumed, there's still the consideration of opportunity costs. What are those officers doing with their time? Right now an officer might be taking several hours of his shift to book in a homeless serial inebriate, only to repeat the process a few days later, and again a few days after that. What is the impact if that inebriate is diverted from the judicial system and is no longer on the streets requiring repeated arrests for causing a public nuisance? That police officer is freed up to do other things. Even if he's just patrolling through your neighborhood, there's a real value to having him spending his time being visible, possibly preventing criminal activity, as opposed to hanging out at the detention center, filing paperwork for the 37th time on the same serial inebriate.

KnoxCatLady's picture

Certainly the theory

It is certainly the theory as to the allocation of the police and firemen. I question whether that will indeed be true, as City officials and those advocating the TYP have admitted there is and will likely always be a higher number of calls in relation to the homeless population. If it is actually true the number of calls will decrease and our officers are free to patrol other neighborhoods, no one would be happier than I would be.

rocketsquirrel's picture

answer: none of the above.

answer: none of the above.

Address the macroeconomic conditions that created this wave of new homelessness since the 1980s. Knoxville can't do it. A national movement of Ten Year Plans won't do it. It will make the do-gooders feel good, but until you control the pipeline of chronic homeless--caused mainly by poverty, addiction, and massive cuts in spending on affordable housing programs--you're not going to get a change in the fundamental levels of homelessness. We're trying to bail water out of the Titanic with teacups.

Achieving greater access to affordable housing would be a step in the right direction of reducing the number of chronic homeless. More Section 8? maybe. probably cheaper and faster.

Required reading...The new social contract: America's journey from welfare state to police state By Joseph Dillon Davey.

Pay particular attention to Chapter Three: The New Homelessness: The Reagan Legacy.

In a nation like the United States, with its strong Calvinist tradition, a problem like homelessness is almost always viewed as a failure of individual character rather than as a natural outgrowth of macroeconomic dislocations or ill-conceived political policies.

What is the new Social Contract?

edens's picture

there is a fourth option and

there is a fourth option and that is to allow the homelessness industrial complex to chug right along on Broadway.

Speaking of, where were all these penny pinching watchdogs of public money back when the County was buying VMC the most expensive vacant lot in the history of the center city?

Anonymously Nine's picture

One trick pony

"Speaking of, where were all these penny pinching watchdogs of public money back when the County was buying VMC the most expensive vacant lot in the history of the center city?"

Good grief, you are a reporter/columnist and you ask that? Did your newspaper report when "the County was buying VMC the most expensive vacant lot in the history of the center city?"

You act like it is our jobs to do your job.

Very weak tea Scoop. If the newspapers in this scruffy little town would do their jobs and report the damn news instead of omitting and coloring it maybe citizens would know what is happening.

There were more city employees and VMC supporters in the audience last night than civilians. People don't know what they don't know. How can they be involved if they don't know what is happening? Are we going to require everyone to read KnoxViews?

The Knoxville industrial homeless complex is partially the result of the change from reporting to PR in local newspapers over the last decade. The local papers enabled this homeless industry train wreck. They were complicit in this mess.

Last night the public was told this would cost NO LOCAL DOLLARS. Even Bob Becker got upset with that crap. And it was fiction. Will VMC magically get the $2.4 million dollars for case managers from the Federal Easter Bunny? Will the crucial therapeutic addictions services be provided by TenCare and Medicaid? It would be comical if it wasn't so brazen.

If you believe that I have a Glass Dome over Market Square for you.

The question people should be asking is what happens when the levy breaks? When the federal dollars stop coming, and they will, do we kick the addicts out on the street and convert these places into Section 8 Housing? That is the usual path.

Just great. Really angry addicts on the streets. We take away their housing and we expect they will take that gracefully?

I agree with rocketsquirrel. The answer is D.) None of the above. This is a massive federal, state, and local problem and has to be addressed on all levels. The smart play is prevention. Once people become homeless it is very difficult to get back to even. And that probably means massive expansion in Section 8 housing. There is a wage gap between what people at the low end can earn and what it takes to provide housing and food. Cue Madeline Rogero, "WE NEED A LIVING WAGE". Uh, isn't that throwing gasoline on a lit fire? Isn't the problem these people cannot find jobs? Cue, metulj, "You're a fucking idiot."

And if you think that sobriety and jobs are not the most important parts of the puzzle then you are surrendering everyone's future. It is not possible to house and care for this population of people for the rest of their lives. They have to get straight and get employed or we are all done.

One other thing, if you ever needed to see why at large representatives are such a bad idea witness last night's performance. All three at large council-critters voted for this. I couldn't believe Chris Woodhull voted for this.

The second reading of this will be far different than last night's pageant.

So do you believe in the Federal Easter Bunny?

B. Paone's picture

Good call, switching your focus.

It's a lot easier to argue with Mike Mitchell than to try and answer sticky questions anyway. :) That's cool, though. You've made it quite clear you'd rather fritter away your days arguing like a child rather than discussing a matter like an adult. I'll respect your pedantic view and withdraw those questions you hate so much so you can get back to blowing your time and energy on... well, this.

Too bad. You don't get that time back, you know.

Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock...

B, Paone's picture

Must've been wrong all those years, then.

See, I always thought something like this was a question:

* What specific conditions and illnesses will the taxpayers be expected to treat?

But according to you, this is a statement of my opinion. I don't really see how, though. It looks very much like a request for information that has been thus far missing from the "conversation".

However, you continuously insist that I have the concept of questioning wrong. Would you do me a huge favor, then, and kindly post how you would like the question asked?

B. Paone's picture

Oh, it's a SPIN thing! Geez, why didn't I think of that?

So it's not that the question wasn't a question, it's just that it wasn't asked exactly the way you wanted. Okay, now that I know, just feel free to take the questions and reword them however you like. I don't care how it's worded, personally. If you overspin, I'll put it back in context, okay?

Actually, I can give you a good example now, since you spun out the taxpayers and the request for specific treatment examples. Hmm, let's see... how about:

"What SPECIFIC conditions and illnesses are expected to be treated, and how much is expected to be spent on treatment over the first decade of active treatment?"

Better?

(Oh, and feel free to call "spin" whatever you like as well. I just know it as "spin", but I'm sure you know another term for it. I don't mean the term "spin" offensively, for whatever that's worth to ya.)

B. Paone's picture

Gave up again?

And just when we had this "question" issue sorted out.

In all seriousness, Metamucil, telling someone they don't know anything about something and then refusing to answer questions is about as Mitchellesque as it gets.

Then again, what the hell do ya care. Have fun arguing nothing with nobody.

I'm also going to assume that there isn't a single reader that wants to answer the questions posed. Probably some stupid reason for it too, like "not worded appropriately" or "not my definition of a question".

That's fine. Time will answer those questions whether anyone wants to or not, and I don't think anyone's going to like the answers.

Keep it classy, KnoxViews.

B. Paone's picture

Whoops! Must've got dizzy and missed the question, hoss!

Remember, you reworded the question and spun out the taxpayer bit. I like how you try to discredit the original question as opposed to tackling the one YOU helped shape, but only for the ironic value.

Anyway, back to the question, that YOU helped create, which I am sure you will see isn't answered by what you call an "answer":

"What SPECIFIC conditions and illnesses are expected to be treated, and how much is expected to be spent on treatment over the first decade of active treatment?"

...by the way, your ridiculous "point" can be easily countered by pointing out that while taxpayers may not ADMINISTER the treatment directly, we ARE expected to be directly responsible for the as-yet-unknown treatment's existence by paying an as-yet-unknown amount for it. Agree or disagree? (Look, one more chance to duck the real questions... or is it?)

sobi's picture

A suggestion for you, Brian.

You could really help this discussion along if you'd provide a detailed list of all of the physical illnesses and injuries you will suffer over the next decade, and all of the mental and emotional conditions you will experience over the same period, combined with a detailed list of the medical and mental health services you'll require over the next ten years. Be sure to include dental, too. Name who will provide the services you'll require, what their fees will be over that decade, and how how the treatment modalities will change over that same decade and what impact that change will have on costs. Factor in the global changes to the healthcare system in this country as it evolves over that decade, including the impact on costs that will happen because of that evolution. Identify all of the sources of subsidy that will offset the cost of your access to these services. Be sure to add a line item for what you will personally pay into the systems that deliver the services you'll use, and factor in, somehow, the improvement that you're likely to experience in your various conditions due to the fact that you're in housing and that you're getting all this treatment. Account for the costs you'll incur transporting yourself between the therapists and doctors and dentists and midwives and whatnot, and don't assume you'll always be transporting yourself. Don't forget to pull in the costs associated with the calories you'll expend as you engage in accessing the services you describe based upon the kind of food you like to eat and how much it costs. Be sure to include costs for water and toiletries for the bathing you'll do (hopefully) before your visits. Factor in everything else that I've left out, oh, like toothpaste. I did forget that. Then you can use yourself as a template because you were homeless once and figure the costs to the system based on your example. At least that would be a start, and it would obviously be a real contribution to the quality of this discussion here at KnoxViews.

B. Paone's picture

Even less agile than last time!

You're not very good at this.

First off, you didn't answer the question. AGAIN. The question is thus:

"What SPECIFIC conditions and illnesses are expected to be treated, and how much is expected to be spent on treatment over the first decade of active treatment?"

No one, including you, has pointed out what specific conditions and illnesses are expected to be treated.

No one, including you, has given anything close to a firm figure on how much this will cost over the first decade of the program.

Second, while I think it's absolutely adorable that you're fighting so hard for something you can't even explain, you don't know me. Maybe you should concentrate on formulating an actual answer, that addresses the question YOU helped make, before trying to tell other people what they believe regardless of whether or not it's fact.

So. What take are we on now? Think we can get this scene wrapped, or would you like to ad-lib some more fluff in yet another desperate attempt to avoid questions that are growing larger with each failed try?

B. Paone's picture

If that's too "taxing" for you...

...then how about the specific ailments, maladies and mental illnesses that would qualify an applicant for such a program?

Don't worry. I didn't really expect you to answer the questions about cost. No one seems to know those answers. How could you?

Then again, I wonder if you know what ailments will qualify an applicant. No one seems to know the specifics on that either. At least, if they do they're not saying.

And, of course, there's still the others for you to rephrase and then give the ol' "duck and dodge" treatment, which is going to take even more time if recent history is any indicator, and we're... what, four, five years into this Ten Year Plan now?

So many questions for being allegedly half-finished, don't you think? All smartassery aside? And don't you think that maybe, just MAYBE, it's the continued and growing presence of such questions, and NOT some horrible and sinister motive, that is causing so much opposition?

So where's the damn answers already?! And if you don't have them, who the hell does?! And how many more years do we have to go through to get the damn answers?

sobi's picture

Thanks.

While some taxpayers are doctors/therapists/social workers, not all taxpayers are doctors/therapists/social workers, therefore all taxpayers do not treat diseases that afflict the chronically homeless.

I'm glad you pointed this out. Not many people know this.

Rachel's picture

There were more city

There were more city employees and VMC supporters in the audience last night than civilians.

Just curious - were you there? Because the spouse was, and he said the audience was mainly south Knoxville folks opposed to Flenniken. He knew most of them by sight, if not personally.

Anonymously Nine's picture

Your pledge?

You made a promise.

Rachel's picture

I love how you bring that up

I love how you bring that up whenever I ask you a question you want to ignore.

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"I love how you bring that up whenever I ask you a question you want to ignore."

No, I don't want to enable you.

edens's picture

Good grief, you are a

Good grief, you are a reporter/columnist and you ask that? Did your newspaper report when "the County was buying VMC the most expensive vacant lot in the history of the center city?"

(link...)

The vacant lot aspect came about after the fact. When the County gave VMC the money in 2003, it was ostensibly to buy a building "ideally suited for their needs." Rob Frost tried to stir some shit up about it back in 2003, but couldn't get any traction (the community being, on the whole, okay with pouring endless amounts of money into the 5th & broad reservation for the homeless...)

And it was reported (scroll down):

(link...)

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

Eleven. Eleven stories over eight years?

Really. You present that as a defense of the PR press in this scruffy little town?

However, this is quotable, "Since my last prediction turned out to be prophetic, let me offer up another: In 10 years the chronically homeless will still be with us and government will be looking to grease the skids and move the shelters away from an area that, as a rejuvenated downtown and Fourth and Gill grow together, looks little like today’s skid row."

I don't have access to the South Knox Bubba archives, but I remember a post about a crack head kicking down someone's front door and stealing their stuff near the Mission District. Said person later moved out of state. To a more urban and urbane environ. Some place up north called Fredneck.

edens's picture

Way to get personal, Mikey

Way to get personal, Mikey (although, for what its worth, we were already in the process of moving - twins put proximity to the grandparents at a premium).

The funny thing is that, even from 500 miles away I more or less saw the current kerfluffle coming:

(link...)

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

Make that 12 stories since 2002.

edens's picture

Idiot, most of those "eleven

Idiot, most of those "eleven stories" weren't about the the VMC grant (which you might have noticed if you'd bothered to read a little...) It didn't generate more press for precisely the same reason it didn't generate any outrage - until the industrial scale monster they created started coming for them, people in West Knoxville thought spending millions on shelters in the inner city was just peachy...

Anonymously Nine's picture

You and metulj and your pet names

"It didn't generate more press for precisely the same reason it didn't generate any outrage - until the industrial scale monster they created recently started coming for them, people in West Knoxville thought spending millions on shelters in the inner city is just peachy..."

It's the fault of the evil Westies. Fredneck said so. By the way, where exactly is Fredneck?

You heard it from the sage hisself. All the evil in this county comes from the West.

Seriously, why do you defend a press that isn't really a press at all? If the people of this county had ever known about this homeless industry that was being silently created they would have at least been part of the process. And this industry would not have been created in the way it was.

Ever occur to you the the evil ones out West are more disengaged than your former brethren in the kool part of town? So when the press doesn't inform the evil ones, THEY DON'T KNOW FREDNECK. Do you expect them to have your psychic abilities? Not everyone can be Fredneck teh Magnificent.

By your own words you admit this doesn't work, "Lawler's experience and connections, along with the commitment from the city and county, can bring a lot of resources to the fight against homelessness, but they should be wielded carefully, so as not to roll over neighborhoods and homeowners in the process."

Lawler has shown you to be prophetic. Flenniken, Debusk Lane, and Teaberry lane were all surprise attacks that were fast tracked. You are a genius. You foresaw it all. And you were right. If only the little people had known.

edens's picture

If the people of this county

If the people of this county had ever known about this homeless industry that was being silently created they would have at least been part of the process.

Dude, where do you think KARM and VMC raise most of their money? (the "private funding" some TYP opponent was boasting about the other day). What puzzles me about the TYP is, are the shelters purposely reneging on their protection racket? Or is it a shakedown? Scare their donors into doubling down?

fischbobber's picture

The point of my "private

The point of my "private funding" comments on KARM and VMC and the Salvation Army for that matter was that being in the private did and should give them a greater degree of autonomy than a publicly funded TYP. Public funds should be open to public scrutiny. I don't have a clue how these organizations raise capital other than ringing bells by red pots at Christmas.

The primary problems at Teaberry were logistical in nature. It was a poor site choice for a pedestrian facility. There was virtually no infrastructure and the terrain (steep hills combined with drainage problems) issues that needed to be addressed. In addition the lots in question straddled the city/county line. Having spent the last 24 years living in two different houses that are within an eye's view of the city/county line I have come to realize that officers are dispatched based on the callers phone' location as often as not. The announced price also struck myself and neighbors as extremely high. I got involved after touring the site and looking into the plan. My natural inclination is to support efforts to help those that need it. Until the administrators at TYP are changed my position is that there are many useful outlets for helping a variety of people in need and throwing good money after bad by allowing the people at TYP to continue to do whatever they are doing is just foolishness.

The local press in this town have done an abominable job of covering this issue. The reason the mission district became the mission district was because it's infrastructure was uniquely suited to this sort of campus setting for homeless affairs. Insufficient infrastructure and lack of funds and desire to upgrade the infrastructure are at the heart of this entire issue. As long as you guys give the guys at TYP a free ride this whole program will be nothing more than Haslams cronies living large at the public teat.

For the record, in general I support the Ten Year Plan. The people running the show need to go and the entire organizational structure redone before I will even begin to think about supporting the implementation of it. They have reached the point where their lack of credibility overrides their ability to function.

edens's picture

The reason the mission

The reason the mission district became the mission district was because it's infrastructure was uniquely suited to this sort of campus setting for homeless affairs.

Cheap real estate in a part of town the rest of the community had written off?

Would have worked, too, if it weren't for you meddling cool kids...

fischbobber's picture

That part of town is a

That part of town is a pedestrian neighborhood with needs and services, everything from groceries to medical care to libraries etc.

If housing first is going to work throughout the city either places are going to have to be found that already have the infrastructure or the investment is going to have to be made to build it.

I'm beginning to understand why the newspapers suck in this town.

rocketsquirrel's picture

you mean none of the westies

you mean none of the westies are horrified that between the VMC/KARM/Salvation Army homeless metroplex and the nearest grocery (Kroger) is a liquor store and a pre-school?

Sounds like Debusk, doesn't it?

Shocking, I tell ya. Their selective outrage is amazing.

fischbobber's picture

I usually shop at Chicken

I usually shop at Chicken City when down that way. I'm overdue for walking the area. I'll get down there as soon as possible, until then I'll continue asking friends (I've got a few) where they shop from their homes.

The mission district came before redevelopment, by the way. Seeing how things are going here I'll spot you that it is a chicken and egg argument. My point is this. Housing the homeless does not have to destroy neighborhoods. It can make them stronger. Property values don't have to decrease because of a homeless presence. The homeless presence can raise property values if planned and managed correctly. The TYP people are not approaching this problem from that perspective and until they do ,they are not welcome anywhere near my house.

The mission district has sidewalks. Where are ours? The mission district has bicycle lanes. Where are ours? The mission district has a public health facilities. Where are ours? The mission district has a organized religious presence interdenominationally working together. Find that happening anywhere else south of the Mason-Dixon line. In short, your bitching and whining is just that, bitching and whining.

The TYP group and the mayors staff and their plans have been rejected because their plan sucks and their managers are incompetent. Had they brought a workable plan to the table and reached out to the people who already lived there with respect, there may well have been a different result. We'll never know. My personal view is that the best way to get along with me is not to start out by calling me a gutless, lying, gossip. (I can read pseudo- intellectual. It's my second language.)

Finally, the complaint I hear from people living around the mission district is that the people running the show don't live there. They pack up at night and go home to Farragut. In my humble opinion, that's fair criticism and should be addressed by the boards of the respective agencies involved. This situation is solvable should people show a willingness to compromise and work together in good faith. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

P.S. What Krogers are y'all talking about? The closest on I know of is over by Fulton High School.

fischbobber's picture

Did they get rid of the

Did they get rid of the co-op?

sobi's picture

I'm confused. Please explain.

What puzzles me about the TYP is, are the shelters purposely reneging on their protection racket? Or is it a shakedown? Scare their donors into doubling down?

What do you mean?

rocketsquirrel's picture

Matt, I noticed a "sale

Matt,

I noticed a "sale pending" sign recently on the old VMC building at the corner of Jackson and Gay. 103, 105 South Gay, and 306 Jackson I believe are some of those addresses.

Wonder what "Volunteer Helpers Inc" will do with that money?

Pay back some of the CDBG money they've gotten for the Rescue Mission building KARM sold them and they tore down?

Heh. Don't count on it.

journalist's picture

Warehousing the problem

My biggest concern is that the TYP exists only to warehouse those homeless people with severe alcohol and/or drug addictions, to get them off the street, out of the jail system, and out of sight. If that's the case, then it is a carbon copy of what occurred in Seattle, WA.

Seattle spent $11.2 million building a four-story complex to house 75 homeless residents.

"In a controversial acknowledgment of their addiction, the residents - 70 men and 5 women - can drink in their rooms. They do not have to promise to drink less, attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings or go to church."

(snip)

"Bunks for drunks - it's a living monument to failed social policy," said John Carlson, a conservative local radio talk show host. This approach, he said, is "aiding and abetting someone's self- destruction."

Please, read the entire article: (link...)

The TYP continues to remain vague and dismissive regarding the "services" issues. This troubles me and many other Knoxville residents. Because the residents of the TYP facilities cannot be cherry-picked with any criteria in mind (choosing to house a non-alcoholic over an alcoholic is discriminatory and therefore illegal), the question of supportive services must be clarified by TYP.

Supportive services should go hand-in-hand with supportive housing, shouldn't they? If so, then why don't the creators of TYP show us their detailed plan for services AND the cost of those services to the taxpayers? Or do they intend for TYP housing to be someday referred to as Knoxville's bunks for drunks?

B. Paone's picture

Let me save you some time:

Those kinds of questions don't get answered here. Some people don't even consider them questions.

Don't get me wrong, I think you ask very valid questions and I hope for the city's sake you get them. But don't be shocked if you get slammed for daring to ask.

whooshe65's picture

Here is a question-

Considering it was revealed last night in the City Council Workshop for HUD's 5 year Consolidated Plan, that traditional HUD monies that have been awarded to the City of Knoxville have been in steady decline for the last decade. To the tune of 50% less over the last decade.

How is it that the Haslem administration and City Council, has given the Flenniken PSH project a Blank Check to spend money on Supportive Services, when they all know that the money does not exist?

smithrob2010's picture

City Council Meeting on Tuesday night

I just reviewed the City Council meeting on Tuesday night. Did anyone else get the impression that the TYP folks including the lady from VMC, didn't seem to actually answer any of the questions that they were asked?

Like how many KCDC units are available for the Homeless without building any, or if VMC could actually pay for their commitment of 44, $55,000 a year salaried Case managers, or who would actually provide the Psychiatric counseling, or the Addiction counseling?

Even if this group of folks where able to be covered under TennCare or Medicaid, how will the services be provided? Will it be provided at VMC, Cherokee Health or Helen Ross McNabb? And how is TennCare Funded, oh yeah, it’s our Tax Dollars, almost forgot.

whooshe65's picture

Shocking, I tell ya. Their selective outrage is amazing

You want to talk about Shocking,

According to VMC, the 27,000 dollars that the City of Knoxville sends to them yearly is 3.3% of VMC's yearly operating Budget. So that means VMC's current Yearly budget is about $820,000. So to me, the assertion from VMC's Ginnie Weatherstone at the City Council meeting on Tuesday night that VMC could handle the expense of 44 Case Managers, with annual salaries of $55,000 each, to the tune of $2,420,000 yearly for all of the Housing First-Permanent Supportive Housing Units needed for the Ten Year Plan, is an Amazing Outrage.

Who's is kidding Who.

Anonymously Nine's picture

white elephant

"So to me, the assertion from VMC's Ginnie Weatherstone at the City Council meeting on Tuesday night that VMC could handle the expense of 44 Case Managers, with annual salaries of $55,000 each, to the tune of $2,420,000 yearly for all of the Housing First-Permanent Supportive Housing Units needed for the Ten Year Plan, is an Amazing Outrage."

To quote another commenter, "That is the elephant in the room".

Tuesday night was a desperate play to save a failed plan. What people are talking about today is that the Ten Year Plan has no plan to provide any therapeutic addiction or psychiatric services. Tuesday night the real work was summarily subcontracted to the Federal Government, TennCare, and VMC.

It got worse Tuesday night. They said it will cost Knoxville City taxpayers zero, nada, nothing. They really thought people believed them. You would think that would be a front page story, but the KNS missed it somehow.

So be clear, after Tuesday night the Ten Year Plan builds buildings. That is it.

For VMC to claim they will receive enough private money to fund the 44 case managers in beyond fantasy. White elephants will fly before VMC can fund $2.4 million dollars a year.

As far as TenCare funding therapeutic addiction or psychiatric services. If Ashley Manes cannot get TennCare funding, then how in the hell will homeless drug addicts?

They didn't insult the peoples intelligence Tuesday night. They assume the people have no intelligence.

NASHVILLE — Gov. Phil Bredesen proposes shrinking overall TennCare spending by another $860 million in the coming year, and Ashley Manes is, indirectly, one small part of that plan.

The 14-year-old Knoxville girl, a quadriplegic whose life depends on a ventilator and multiple medications because of a traffic accident 10 years ago, has been deemed ineligible for continued TennCare coverage, according to Joe Manes, her father.

Bird_dog's picture

Is there anything we can agree on?

Existence of homelessness - visible

Number of homeless - quantifiable through HIMS?
Cause of homelessness - maybe the HIMS system will reveal that
Cost of existing services - s/b quantifiable
Distribution of existing services - s/b quantifiable
Effectiveness of existing services (what's the goal?) -

Desire to help? - As I recall VMC/Refuge was started by downtown congregations to provide respite, meals, and coordinate emergency assistance to folks who had been making the rounds, so to speak, of the downtown churches. Churches do not have the staff resources to verify need, so they instead contribute money and volunteers to VMC and the Refuge. My observation is that there are lots of compassionate people of means in our community.

What to do?
Nothing - what might be the consequences?
Continue as is - how's that working?
Change our focus from maintenance to rehabilitation? - how?
Allocate more resources? - what kind? how much?

Providing shelter as a right, rather than a reward, makes sense to me as a first step in rehab. But why does that have to be uber expensive new construction - regardless of where the money comes from? Without HUD and THDA money, existing apartment or housing stock could be rented, as is, unless local funds dried up. At least tax money would not have been used to build a new apartment building for some property owner.

Seems to me, the discussions should start with the basics that can be agreed upon before we try to speculate 3 steps (what, where, how) and many dollars ahead...

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"Is there anything we can agree on?"

Did you see the City Council meeting Tuesday? If so, based on that meeting, would you agree the Ten Year Plan is about building buildings?

I saw that the actual goal, helping the homeless patients, had not been given much thought as to who would provide the needed therapeutic addiction/psychiatric services, where they would be provided, and who would pay for them.

And they are patients, not residents. The idea that they get to stay on drugs as long as they don't get caught by the cops isn't going to help fund raising much.

I think this should go back to the drawing board. It doesn't make sense. At the last second we learn that the Ten Year Plan does nothing but select sites and builds buildings. After five years that is shocking.

This town owes the Teaberry Lane people a huge thanks. They dug into this and exposed a plan that isn't a plan at all. Just the case managers for the two sites that have been approved require $214,200 a year. That is much more than the City provides VMC now. Do we really believe that people will donate to VMC after Tuesday night's meeting?

Tuesday night proved this is unsustainable. Considering that Jon Lawler is not capable of answering a direct question, maybe part the problem is obvious. And that same problem extends to Madeline Rogero. Who made a really strong case as to why she should not run for City Mayor.

And on that note, do you believe this?

(link...)

Guess we should ask Bud what he thinks of the Ten Year Plan.

Rachel's picture

And that same problem extends

And that same problem extends to Madeline Rogero. Who made a really strong case as to why she should not run for City Mayor.

And there it is, folks - step right up and get your wedge issue against Rogero. I was wondering when you'd get around to this?

Who do you like for City Mayor, BTW? I realize you don't live in the City, but am curious.

Bird_dog's picture

a modest twist on housing first

Suppose the current population of homeless people in our community fell into the 80/20 category of episodic and chronic. And suppose that the 20% of chronic individuals consumed 80% of the resources? The "housing first" model is aimed at those 20% to reduce their drain on our hospitals and jails for example. Of course we are substituting the resource of case managers and therapists along with housing.

What if the 80%, the larger group, were provided short-term housing immediately - from among rental stock, hotel vacancies, etc. They seem the most likely to deal with the cause of their homelessness quickly and with less intensive case management. Units could be secured ad hoc as the need arose and they would be distributed throughout the community - never having the opportunity to become part of the "homeless culture".

Then, the existing homeless agencies could deal more effectively with the 20% who are hard-core and more challenging. I've been reading "the Tipping Point" and trying to think about this in a different way.

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"Units could be secured ad hoc as the need arose and they would be distributed throughout the community - never having the opportunity to become part of the "homeless culture"."

I challenge you to a discussion.

Continue with your out of the box thought process on, "never having the opportunity to become part of the "homeless culture"."

And?

Bird_dog's picture

Housing First, to reduce the number of homeless...

by definition. Folks who are temporarily down on their luck, would never become homeless if they find immediate refuge. I knew a family who eventually reported code violations in their rental house, it was condemned and they had to move into the shelter. A couple with long-term employment and teens doing well in school. they just didn't have the first & last month's rent and deposit all at once to move to a better place. Utility bills at their previous drafty house had kept them behind on all bills. They eventually found affordable housing, but it was a struggle keeping the family together in the shelter.

I'm just saying that, to reference the Tipping Point, sometimes a Band-aid is good enough if used right away. I have no clue how to address the issues leading to chronic homelessness. But the 80% of potentially homeless folks could be housed on our dime for a brief time and never actually live on the street (that's what I'm calling the homeless culture - survival on the streets).

fischbobber's picture

You're trying to get us all

You're trying to get us all in trouble by thinking coherently and coming up with real world workable solutions aren't you?

I also had a thought. If we're going to put a homeless facility in west Knoxville let's put it in the N.E. corner of the McMurray farm. (I think that is the name of the farm at the corner of Kingston Pike and Cedar Bluff) With some paint and a little traffic light adjustment, there is access to the green way system from Farragut to West town , sidewalks, a hospital, grocery stores, jobs, hell there's even a strip club and a liquor store to appease those that consider these sorts of things vital. The are also two strong churches (one whose mission is to help those in recovery) within walking distance. It's the best place I've found.

Since getting involved in this process, I find myself looking at every piece of vacant property I see and wondering, "Would it work here? Why? Why not?"

Anonymously Nine's picture

Ten Year Plan

fischbobber's picture

"Where in that article is a

"Where in that article is a referendum mentioned?"

It's dealt with pretty extensively in the comment section.

fischbobber's picture

I would agree that the KNS

I would agree that the KNS comments section is the functional equivalent of that particular article. That woman has a problem with in depth, objective reporting.

Rick H.'s picture

I support a referendum on

I support a referendum on this stupid Ten Year Plan. They have lied the entire time. Let the voters decide if they want this disaster. Where do we sign?

Rick H.'s picture

Did you watch City Council

Did you watch City Council last week? Guess not, or you would know.

Somebody's picture

Logical fallacies

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"How have they lied?"

It's on now. See for yourself. It isn't subtle.

Bike Bitchell's picture

Help me out here, bra.

It's on now. See for yourself.

I watched, upon your recommendation. Sad to say, but I lack your amazing power to be able to tell when someone's lying just by watching them on the teevee. Would you please do us citizens who are not endowed with so sensitive a mendacity meter as you are a service and fisk this show? Or at least point out the ripest, stinkiest examples of mendacity you detect?

Rachel's picture

I don't think there's been

I don't think there's been "lying" going on about this program. I do think there's been a big failure to share information and an unwillingness to answer questions directly (I can think of two that went unanswered at the Council meeting - "Can we ban alcohol on the premises?" and "What ARE the rules residents must follow?").

My guess is that the former springs from a complete lack of political understanding about how to interact with the community, and the second from knowing people won't like the answers.

IMO, TYP does itself a big disservice with this attitude. It would be a whole lot better for people to hear stuff they might not like ("no, we really CAN'T ban alcohol") than to feel like their questions are being evaded. In my discussions with folks, the main thing I hear about the TYP is that "I just don't trust them." That's going to be real hard to fix.

Rick H.'s picture

" I do think there's been a

" I do think there's been a big failure to share information and an unwillingness to answer questions directly "

Isn't that lying?

Rachel's picture

Lying

Lying is deliberately telling a falsehood.

That's not the same thing as dodging a question, or just flat out not getting it when it comes to communicating with the public.

Rick H.'s picture

"Lying is deliberately

"Lying is deliberately telling a falsehood"

Ginny from VMC said they could raise $2.4 million every year. Last year they raised $1.3 million.

So that would be a white lie, or just an exaggeration?

When Lyons said TennCare and Medicaid would pay all medical and Knoxville taxpayers would pay zero, what was that? Is that a little blue lie?

When Lawler says it saves money what is that? Running out of colors aren't you?

What about Bailey the town idiot? He said this would dress up the neighborhood.

We know what they did.

Somebody's picture

"Ginny from VMC said they

"Ginny from VMC said they could raise $2.4 million every year. Last year they raised $1.3 million."

So if your kid says he can pass fourth grade, and all he's ever done in the past is pass first, second, and third grades, you'd say he's lying? That's just nonsesical. Weatherstone was neither asked nor did she answer if she had in the past raised the higher amount. She was asked and answered if she could in the future raise the higher amount. There are other nonprofits in this community that raise considerably more than that, so not only did she not lie, but the expectation, while perhaps daunting, is achievable.

Just because you want to believe someone is lying, that does not mean that they are.

Anonymously Nine's picture

.

"She was asked and answered if she could in the future raise the higher amount."

If the City writes the check the problem is solved. Right? So you are fine with the little game that was played in Council?

It is odd the City is freaking out over the $1.3 million deficit from the Convention Center. But this $1.1 million amount is no problem?

Don't think so.

Bike Bitchell's picture

Come now, my good man. Stop with the "Liar, liar!"

If the City writes the check the problem is solved. Right?

Did Ms. Weatherstone say that the City would write the check if her organization can't raise the money it needs to carry out its mission? I've watched her on the teevee very carefully and I don't see that she said that. I don't see that she implied it either. She just seemed to say that her organization needs to raise it. Besides, it's the County that writes the checks to take care of people in Knoxville who are mentally ill or addicted to drugs. The money that's getting spent by the Sheriff to deliver mental healthcare in jail to the same people over and over? The cash laid out for the drugs used in jail to treat those same people over and over? The dollars that go to the hospitals to pay for the very poor, a population that includes people who are not all fine upstanding citizens? If you're a Knox County resident, you're already paying for that stuff. Why is it all right to spend tax revenues that way? Clear your little bugle of spit and toot it about that stuff, why don't you? That way, you'd at least seem consistent.

Anonymously Nine's picture

Here ya go

(link...)

I think it is covered in detail in writing. Oh, you have to read the comments. The story left out most everything.

Be Serious's picture

fund raising letter

Dear Concerned Knoxvillian,

We are asking you today to help us with a program that places untreated drug addicts into neighborhoods all across Knox County. Studies show that by focusing on their self esteem and putting them into housing first the likelihood is somewhat greater they will opt to seek voluntary addiction therapy which we hear TennCare will pay for.

This is permanent housing. They will not be asked to achieve sobriety nor seek employment. Nor will they be drug tested. As long as they are not arrested they have not violated their lease. We will house them for the rest of their lives in a $140,000 efficiency apartment. But it won't cost Knoxville taxpayers anything. It's all pass through money from the government.

We are asking you today for any contribution you can make. This year we need only $2.4 million dollars for case workers. Our present $1.3 million dollar budget is consumed with the good work we already do.

If 240,000 of you will only contribute ten dollars we can meet our goal this year.

whooshe65's picture

Children

So now that we know that Sobriety is not a requirement for the residents of the Ten Year Plan's Housing Units, lets put one with the Kids at Lakeshore, Yeah, Great Idea

Knoxville councilman wants to prohibit housing for homeless in Lakeshore Park

See you all Tuesday night at 7:00PM at the City Council Meeting in the Main Assembly Room of the City County Building. I wouldn't miss it.

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