Maybe the City should negotiate to purchase some of UT's married student housing on Sutherland for the homeless. No conversion necessary. They are within walking distance to grocery stores and convenience stores, on a great bus route, more jobs in the vicinty, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah, blah.

They could sell half of it and use the money to finance the other half remaining student housing. Or they could provide a land lease for half of it as revenue and still use other half as student housing. Keeping ownership of all the property.

Remins me of recent news of a court order for some NYC suburbs to mix low income housing in with the mansions.

I think that will be trouble for the Ft. Dickerson, Ft. Stanley, etc park/trail. It will also make the South Knoxville Waterfront less appealing.

I guess I'm out of touch, busy working and paying taxes to support these people. I didn't even know about the plan. The city doesn't want these people down town. No other community wants them either. S. Knoxville already has KCDC housing, half-way houses, drug rehab houses, etc. etc. The S. Knoxville community is and has been doing their part to help out those in need. Other communities need to "man up" and do their part. I was told that Fort Dickerson is a camp ground for the homeless. They have built chanties, up there.

I have lived in S. Knoxville all my life and have seen it go down first hand. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know S. Knoxville is not that answer. I will get a petition together and get many more signatures. Everyone else please do the same. We need to stand together. We vote these folks in office and they are suppose to be doing what WE want.

The entire Council proceeding on this issue was disturbing. Several Council members had the gall to say that approving this project for the chronically homeless at Flenniken Elementary School was economic development. Councilman Joe Bailey, who I understand lives in Sequoyah Hills, made the comment he wouldn't mind living next to such a place himself! I hope I live to see the day such a thing is approved for Sequoyah Hills. South Knoxville lost on a 4-5 vote and it was the West Knoxville members who put it on us. Marilyn Roddy is evidently running for City Council and I certainly wouldn't vote for her if she were the only candidate running. She, too, lives in Sequoyah Hills. Ms. Roddy has never impressed me in the first place and seems to do nothing more than talk. The previous post about things being placed in South Knoxville that no one else wants certainly seems to be true and doesn't help anything.

South Knoxville is having some interesting developments.

1) Attempts to build an expressway thru the middle of it

2) Homeless housing

3) Waterfront development condos etc

4) Student housing condos packed sardine like

5) Hospital closed down

Anything being done for the people that already live there?

The park greenway I guess could be for residents but the way things are evolving it does not seem to be evolving that way.

Any kind of connect the dots falling into place?

As a resident of Farragut I'd just like to say that I think South Knox is an excellent place for homeless people to seek shelter. What with the average price of a house in Farragut topping $300K and stores like Fresh Market charging fifteen bucks for a six pack of premium beer, Farragut is just too expensive for homeless people.

I'd like to see a lot more homeless people living in South Knox and a lot fewer panhandling at the Campbell Station Rd Exit. Perhaps if those in South Knox were more generous to the panhandlers we could redirect some of those panhandlers to South Knox. If so, it would make perfect sense to house those same homeless in S, Knox, closer to their potential panhandling jobs.

I doubt a resident of Farragut wrote the above post. Just more trouble making by the usual troublemaker.

From (link...)
Average home price in Farragut, Tn

Home Data (as of July )
Median Sales Price: $144,000 +1% (from last month)
Number of Sales: 422

...the median price of housing in Farragut @ $144,000 isn't much more than the planned price of around $125,000 per unit. At that price, why not just buy each of them a house? That way, we could "integrate them into the community" much more effectively.

Sequoyah Hills and Sutherland Ave both have section 8 residents. I live in Seymour but still visit the Pond Gap and Bearden area weekly. I'll take South Knoxville over West.

I think the comments by B. Paone were really good comments and make some excellent points! Thank you very much.

Rob, you said:

"People who are chronically homeless are not like you. They are disabled, and they are homeless for long periods of time. Many are mentally ill, and would have been living at a mental hospital like Lakeshore 40 or 50 years ago. These folks do not have the ability to do what you did. Their disabilities preclude that."

I'm so happy to hear you mention Lakeshore in your posting. There is approximately 49.98 acres at Lakeshore belonging to the City of Knoxville and and additional 166.63 acres belonging to the State of Tennessee. Think about it, Rob, you could develop that acreage with large facilities which would house both the homeless and the mentally ill. You could build state of the art housing for so many of our homeless it simply boggles the mind. All that vacant land just sitting there and no one has thought of using it for this purpose....I wonder why?

You may have stumbled onto the perfect solution to the problem Knoxville is presently facing...namely, where to place the homeless population. Excellent idea, Rob, and you are brilliant to think of it. Let's launch an all out effort to acquire that land from the city and the state and start breaking ground immediately.

Think of all the benefits to be gained. They would be safe and secure at Lakeshore and, in no time at all, you would have many of the homeless and mentally ill relocated into West Knoxville. I'm sure the residents of West Knoxville would not object. Just think of the jobs they could get at Cherokee Country Club. Those with limited disabilities could become restaurant help, golf caddy's, bartenders, housekeepers, gardners, doormen, etc.. What could be better? The folks of West Knoxville are always so generous with their contributions to VMC, KARM, and other charities this would give them the chance to take a real "hands on approach" to solving the homeless problem in Knoxville.

Thanks again for suggesting Lakeshore....so many people have forgotten what a PERFECT LOCATION it would be for the Ten Year Plan. Doesn't even have to be rezoned as it is already a mental institute.

Thanks again for reminding all us about Lakeshore and all that wonderfully vacant land. It high time we use that land for its original purpose.

"The case manager relationship is critical to the success of a resident in permanent supportive housing. That cannot be overemphasized."

This is something that I haven't seen fully addressed in TYP presentations. In the rush to find housing, details about case management are not fully disclosed. I understand the VMC will provide case management. But how many managers per client? Where is the funding coming from and how can we be assured that support will continue? Do managers work 8-5? What happens in a crisis? Will there be teams of social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, house managers, etc? Although we have been assured by the TYP that this issue is critical and will be taken care of, I am not satisfied by these assurances. More information would certainly help alleviate some of the questions about the previously homeless moving into their neighborhoods.

What Treehouse said. So far the only role you've written about is assitance in applying for benefits. Will there be other services provided?

________________________
more construction, less politics

Rob,
I am still waiting for a reply to my posting about Lakeshore. It seems you are always ready to put on your little letter sweater and pick up your pom-poms to lead the cheer for keeping the homeless and mentally ill in the area of Broadway and Fifth Avenue. And you cheer even louder for the possibility of moving a large number of these folks to South Knoxville....why no cheers for placing them in permenant housing at Lakeshore? This facility is ready to go. And, according to information provided by Michael Kaplan Lakeshore has space available for 1850 people right now. See his comment below:

"In my conversation yesterday with Dr. Roger Nooe, author of the homeless studies, he claimed that Lakeshore formerly housed 2000 persons and is down to about 150. The remaining 1850 persons are on the streets, in shelters, or in jail. I agree with the above comment that Lakeshore could (and should) be used again. If this is a funding issue, it could be easily demonstrated, I would think, that it is far cheaper to house the mentally ill in Lakeshore than provide the motley collection of social, medical and legal services they are now (hopefully) receiving."

Now there are at least TWO of us who are awaiting an answer to the question: "Why not utilize the Lakeshore facility immediately to place at least 1850 new residents there?"

Seems like a fair question to ask. I rarely submit a posting but this time I could not resist the temptation. I find myself wondering why Mr. Finley is always so quick to expound upon the virtues of any place...EXCEPT WEST KNOXVILLE...when it comes to housing the homeless and mentally ill. What about it, Rob, would you support this idea? Will you help us petition the Mayor and Governor to begin the immediate transfer of 1850 homeless and mentally ill people to Lakeshore? Ignoring these questions only makes me more curious about WHY Lakeshore is not being considered as a viable way to assist the people you claim you are trying to help. After all, isn't it better to find housing immediately rather than wait for Minvilla to be developed? Winter is just around the corner and many of these folks will be caught out in the weather if you don't act soon. Minvilla is just a shell of bricks and decaying mortar at the moment and Lakeshore is up and ready to go.

and we estimate that the chronically homeless population here is somewhere around 700 and 800.

I understand the difficulty in accurately counting the chronically homeless, but there seems to be a lot of variations in the numbers.

A few years ago, the newspaper was reporting that the number of chronically homeless was around 400. That was probably in 2004/2005.

Are we saying it's doubled in that time period? I think before anything is built or renovated we need more accurate numbers.

The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present.
President Abraham Lincoln 1862

I like Lakeshore for a place to walk and run but it seems like a better selection than Flenniken for the homeless.

Rob, you said:

"The days of involuntary commitment to big state hospitals are gone, and they are unlikely to return anytime soon. That's why I say that going back to the asylum isn't an option."

I agree with that statement. (By the way, no one ever mentioned "involuntary commitment" except you.) You further stated:

"Now, if you ask me, "Why not build some permanent supportive housing out at Lakeshore?" then I'd have to say, "I don't know." The bed count there will soon be 115, I've been told. As you're probably aware, some of the old buildings are slated for demolition, and the property seems very well-situated for a permanent supportive housing development. My opinion is that it would be a great site for a PSH facility."

Again, we agree. Permanent housing is exactly what we are advocating.

Now one question. How soon can you arrange a meeting with the powers that be and the residents of West Knoxville to begin the process of making this idea into a reality?

"no one ever mentioned "involuntary commitment" except you" - I noticed that too. Thanks for pointing it out.

I live near Lakeshore and agree it would be a good location for supportive housing. It is a shame to see the cottages not being put to that use. I don't think it is helpful to use "involuntary commitment" as a synonym for using the Lakeshore facilities.

I walk at Lakeshore daily and the grounds are well-used for sports and recreation, but the trails are not secluded (like 3rd creek), and cottage residents might benefit from a safe place to walk, too.

I have a relative who has been at Lakeshore twice, county jails around the country, and is currently in prison - not a violent person, just bipolar and non-compliant with meds... We couldn't get housing for him when he was amenable due to his having been in jail.

I think moving the chronically homeless, especially those with chemical dependency and mental problems, to Lakeshore would be a big mistake.

The growth of Lakeshore as a public park really didn't take place until Lakeshore lost many of its occupants and the guard house came down.

I don't think introducing a group of people who suffer from a host of problems into an area like Lakeshore has become will go over well at all.

Whether that's right or wrong, or people believe that users of the park should be more tolerant is beside the point.

Fifteen years ago, it probably would have worked, before Lakeshore had established itself. Now I think it's too late.

The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present.
President Abraham Lincoln 1862

Gary said:

"I don't think introducing a group of people who suffer from a host of problems into an area like Lakeshore has become will go over well at all."

When the homeless industry begin to dominate the corner of Broadway and Fifth Avenue no one asked the neighbors in Fourth and Gill, Old North, Emory Park, Morgan Street, Old Grey Cemetery and the surrounding business district if they felt the "homeless and mentally ill" would "go over well" in their neighborhoods. They just did it and never wondered if it would "go over well" at that location and now you suggest that we should worry about how well it would be received at Lakeshore. PLEASE...give me a break.

You further stated:

"Whether that's right or wrong, or people believe that users of the park should be more tolerant is beside the point.

Fifteen years ago, it probably would have worked, before Lakeshore had established itself. Now I think it's too late."

What about our neighborhoods? Many folks in that area have worked their buns off restoring those beautiful old homes and neighborhoods and it has taken one hell of a lot longer than fifteen years. And when you say that "whether the users of the park should be more tolerant is beside the point" I must respectfully disagree with you. In fact, I would say that it not "beside the point" rather it is EXACTLY THE POINT.

What about our neighborhoods? Many folks in that area have worked their buns off restoring those beautiful old homes and neighborhoods and it has taken one hell of a lot longer than fifteen years. And when you say that "whether the users of the park should be more tolerant is beside the point" I must respectfully disagree with you. In fact, I would say that it not "beside the point" rather it is EXACTLY THE POINT.

It's probably because the of the title of this post, but I think you read something in my comments that I did not say.

I did not say, "don't put the homeless at Lakeshore, just put them somewhere else." If you interpreted what I said to mean that, that's not what I meant.

I'm still trying to find out the real number of people we're talking about here.

Location of this development is actually the least of the problem. The biggest part is the development and maintenance of adequate support services to help these people out.

And depending upon what is offered, I think, will have some influence on where they are housed.

Because it "will not go over well"? With whom? We are not a fragile, transient, or transitional neighborhood. Users of the park far outnumber the few who would be in supportive housing, and we would be part of their "support system", i.e.,

Do the users of the park know they're being volunteered as a support system?

While I agree that's what neighbors and communities should do, NIMBY could turn into NIMP (not in my park) real quick.

But, for right now I don't have enough information to figuring out where these developments might go.

Some type of well managed development could work at Lakeshore, but I think the key will be "well managed," as it should be key for any location.

The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present.
President Abraham Lincoln 1862

I can't help but thinking the notion of whether a facility for use for the chronically homeless "going over well" with a particular neighborhood is even a concern to the City government. It certainly didn't go over well with the residents near the Flenniken Elementary School, yet that seemed to count for nothing. From what I heard at the City Council meeting, the feelings of area residents shouldn't even be considered under Federal law. Lakeshore seems to be an ideal place to house the chronically homeless. Councilman Joe Bailey said at the Council meeting he wouldn't mind have such a facility next door to him, but I doubt very much he is using his influence and official position to encourage the State of Tennessee to enable the City to use Lakeshore for the homeless. Marilyn Roddy in her own remarks about compassion and the like also hasn't done anything I know of to use Lakeshore for the chronically homeless. As far as I know, every West Knoxvillian on the City Council voted to approve Flenniken for use by the homeless and not one of them will likely do anything to use Lakeshore in a similar fashion. If Councilmen Bailey and Roddy in particular are telling the truth and aren't hypocrites, they will petition the State of Tennessee to use Lakeshore for the homeless. Of course I don't imagine for a moment they will do anything of the kind.

Gary, please allow me to respond to the portion of your posting in which you quote me and I'll allow Bird_Dog to respond to the portion of your post which quotes him.

I'm not convinced that I misunderstood your comments because you said:

"I don't think introducing a group of people who suffer from a host of problems into an area like Lakeshore has become will go over well at all.

I think moving the chronically homeless, especially those with chemical dependency and mental problems, to Lakeshore would be a big mistake."

How else would one interpret your comments? Sounds like you are saying that the homeless should not be placed at Lakeshore but rather at another location. If not at Lakeshore, which location would you prefer? Minvilla is a long way from being completed and Flenniken School is still in the planning stages...thus those locations are off the table for some time to come, right? So, clearly, North Knoxville and South Knoxville have accepted their responsibility by providing shelter and services for the homeless and mentally ill.

I realize that some might object to bringing the homeless to West Knoxville but, for the life of me, I can't figure out why. Aren't we all in this together? We have a fair share of homeless, mentally ill and substance abusers in our neighborhood don't you think it high time some West Knoxville neighborhoods should step up to the plate at long last?

I do appreciate your comments because I think it is important to the ongoing discussion regarding the feasibility of using Lakeshore as a refuge for the homeless. All thoughtful opinions are welcome. But to say I misunderstood the point you were trying to make is not a fair statement as far as I'm concerned.

".. don't you think it high time some West Knoxville neighborhoods should step up to the plate at long last?"

You act like West Knoxville is armored with a gate around it, Citizen X, to keep out the homeless. I have been panhandled in a number of places in West Knoxville, most noticeably around the Cedar Bluff area, but other places west also. If you have ever driven on Sutherland Ave. you might notice some downtrodden folks there, too.

This rhetoric that West Knoxville is immune to the homeless population is counter productive.

The burning question is still unanswered:

How soon can you propose the use of Lakeshore for PSH to city council and the leaders of the Ten Year Plan?

Community development money could be used to purchase mobile homes for temporary use before cold weather arrives. The city already owns a nice chunk of land at Lakeshore so why not move forward with this plan? At Lakeshore you could accomplish within weeks what you have been unable to accomplish at Minvilla in four years time and many, many taxpayer dollars spent. (Notice I said "spent" not "wasted" just to show you my heart is in the right place.)

You said you thought it was "great idea." Then why not take that great idea and turn it into reality?

Sounds like you are saying that the homeless should not be placed at Lakeshore but rather at another location. If not at Lakeshore, which location would you prefer?

"Sounds like you are saying" is typically what someone says before they put words in another person's mouth.

No, I do not think Lakeshore can accommodate the full distribution of the chronically homeless. I don't think any one place in Knoxville can or should.

That said, I'm not sure the numbers are as solid as some people claim they are.

Someone said that the leading expert on this problem says there are "hundreds."

OK.

But is that good enough for this type of policy making?

As far as West Knoxvillians calling the shots on this, I believe they're following their constituents' wishes. If South and North and the rest of Knoxville disagrees then they should make their voices heard and threaten to show their dissatisfaction in the voting booth.

That's usually how what boils down to a political disagreement is solved.

The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present.
President Abraham Lincoln 1862

Gary, you said:

"Sounds like you are saying" is typically what someone says before they put words in another person's mouth."
_____________________________________________________________
Isn't that exactly what you were saying without me putting any words in your mouth? I still think I hit the nail on the head. If I'm wrong I will certainly apologize. It is not my intent to offend anyone. So, do you agree that Lakeshore is a great place to establish PSH or not?

Oh, and as far as the folks in North and South Knoxville trying to make their voices heard rest assured we did the best we could. But, alas, to no avail. We still are the unhappy recipients of more and more additions to the "mission district" which has been created on Broadway.

We also try to make our voices heard when we go to the polls to vote....but often we are out-numbered and out manuvered by stronger voices who will go to any lengths to keep the homeless population out of their neighborhoods.

We are not opposed to helping the homeless we just want to see other zip codes do the same.