Thu
Aug 17 2006
12:22 pm
Interesting Articles
By: airrn

The Cunningrealist points to some interesting reading. Cheney an Incompetent Wimp? Questions to be asked about The alleged UK Terrorist plot

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Les Jones's picture

What "alleged"?

Submitted by Les Jones on Thu, 2006/08/17 - 3:42pm.

Good old excitable Andy Sullivan. This week he's insouciant about terrorism. Next week he'll need a fainting couch as he goes into conniptions about Bush not doing enough to fight terrorism. Anybody want to start a betting pool on how long he'll last at Time?

Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)

rikki's picture

turds of a feather

Submitted by rikki on Thu, 2006/08/17 - 6:31pm.

He doesn't sound excitable. More like resolute and plain.

But you chose to attack the messenger and ignore the message, which is exactly how Cheney operates. It's the point of Sullivan's brief piece: Cheney deflects criticism by attacking his critics.Les follows in kind. 

How often does Osama bin Laden need dialysis? How many dialysis treatments does that imply in the time he has eluded capture? How many more Arabs are suicidally enraged at the U.S. today versus 2001? How much of Americans' future earnings have already been spent?

Who is soft on terror? Incompetence is soft no matter how hard it tries to be hard. 

Les Jones's picture

Damn, Rikki

Submitted by Les Jones on Thu, 2006/08/17 - 11:20pm.

Harsh much?

"He doesn't sound excitable. More like resolute and plain."

You must be a new Andrew Sullivan reader. Andy's constantly going this way and that. Ace has his latest shenanigans this week.

Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)

SayUncle's picture

I can't let a thread about

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 10:40am.

I can't let a thread about Sullivan continue without mentioning this. Kills me every time.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

rikki's picture

There's probably no way to

Submitted by rikki on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 11:02am.

There's probably no way to get you guys to see this as a thread about the competence of our leaders and not a thread about Andrew Sullivan, is there?

SayUncle's picture

Err, i think most of us

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 11:05am.

Err, i think most of us regardless of political stripe have concluded that the competence of our leaders is, err, piss-poor. I think we talk about Sullivan because we're all out of 'give a shit' and need something to focus on.

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SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

rikki's picture

conservative = coward

Submitted by rikki on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 12:25pm.

I believe you're sold on the Bush administration's incompetence, but Les can still be spotted defending them. There are still many, many Republicans placing party loyalty above allegiance to their country. You still hear phrases like "Bush derangement syndrome" designed to suck all the air out of a conversation before anyone gets too deep into thinking about what it means to have what was very recently the greatest country on earth sunk into debt and war.

For a long time we've tolerated the kind of incompetence that makes government slow and inefficient, but we've moved into the destructive form, and the old solution of simply waiting things out is not working.

You guys are afraid to talk about this stuff because you know there is an opportunity to actually do something about it in November. If you can just keep the turd of complacency afloat until then, you'll be able to criticize Bushco all you want without risk of anyone asking, "What are you going to do about it?" 

SayUncle's picture

You make the assumption that

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 12:42pm.

You make the assumption that someone with a D after their name is going to make a difference. That's a helluvan assumption and not one that i buy. If Kerry were elected to office, we'd still be in Iraq and it'd still be a clusterfuck.

It's like this:

R = slow bleed
D = goes to shit quickly

That said, i support the war for a variety of reasons. that doesn't mean that i think the administration is handling it well. In fact, it's a giant clusterfuck.

But i'm more concerned about our domestic issues and loss of freedom. Neither party is good at that. So, pick your poison. Which rights do you want to lose first?

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

SayUncle's picture

'Righteous and paranoid?

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:12pm.

'Righteous and paranoid? '

Nope. Just pay attention.

'it is demonstrably the case that they are incompetent'

Yeah, i said that.

'Wringing your hands over 'loss of freedoms' is exactly what Cheney would rather have you doing than anything else'

Well, the other side hasn't done anything to win me over, particularly with a lot of their coo-coo-banana talk and that when they were in power they did the same thing.

'You are easy to marginalize or call Cassandra'

Probably. And I'll probably vote 3rd party again in 08.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

rikki's picture

The only assumption I make

Submitted by rikki on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:10pm.

The only assumption I make is that competent leaders are preferable to incompetent leaders. I don't give a flying fuck what letter is next to their name. I'd prefer they not have any letters next to their names. All that does is encourage uninformed voting.

SayUncle's picture

'I make is that competent

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:14pm.

'I make is that competent leaders are preferable to incompetent leaders'

Then why the reference to 'november.' i've seen no indication that the november alternative is any more or less incompetent.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

SayUncle's picture

'You are easy to

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:27pm.

'You are easy to marginalize'

Hmm, the more I thought about that, the more concerned i became. But i'd rather be easy to marginalize than a hack.

'the Dems are going to come gun grabbing (your root concern).'

one of my concerns. another being taxes. another being putting the schumer, leiberman, kennedy, clinton, kerry, nanny-state, big government retards in charge.

'I think they may have learned their lesson on this one: start enforcing gun laws as they exist'

They have not. Look at the names on the recent bill to ban confiscating lawful owned weapons and see who voted 'no.' And the Ds have a couple of pro-gun guys (reid and feingold). I'm indifferent on reid. but feingold is overshadowed on gun rights by the incumbent protection act with his name on it.

'What I hope is that all of those fuckers shipping guns to the Northeast from Virginia and elsewhere get to rot in federal prison with their fellow terrorists like Moussaoui and such'

Those fuckers are criminals and they're not 'shipping' them. they're driving down from the north east to pick them up. And thanks to mayor bloomberg's illegal PR stunt, that trend will continue.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

SayUncle's picture

And just curious why you

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:45pm.

And just curious why you choose 'virginia' and 'north east' when more guns seem to be coming from inside the north east (vermont, NH, Maine, have pretty reasonable gun laws). Unless, by north east, you mean simply NY and MA, who, despite their oppressive gun laws, seem to have more a problem with the gun violence than VT, Maine and NH. In fact, Mass. recently started some sort of ad campaign against VT and NH over just that.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

SayUncle's picture

'So you admit that gun laws

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 4:56pm.

'Vermont. Virginia. Irrelevant.'

Quite relevant to point out. Also relevant to point out that the North East isn't having the gun violence problem but specific locations are (MA and NY), a point you washed over.

'So you admit that gun laws are not enforced? '

didn't you just say:

'hey nailed a bunch of guys from Va in Crown Heights (around the corner from my old place) with guns galore and for sale'

Sounds like they were enforced to me.

'Do you want them enforced?'

I want all laws enforced otherwise there's no point in having laws. But I take issue with some laws. For example, NYC's rather oppressive gun laws are over the top. They disarm the law-abiding while criminals buy them illegally (like you just illustrated). And NYC has that nasty habit of giving special treatment to folks whose last names are DeNiro, Trump and Rockefeller.

So, while I take issue with the laws, i want them enforced. And i want the atf to enforce the laws too, as they are investigating bloomberg's recent illegal PR stunt.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

Eleanor A's picture

Course,

Submitted by Eleanor A on Sat, 2006/08/19 - 10:56am.

There's no incompetence in gigantic corporations or in how the free market is currently being administered, either (ever heard of the term 'monopsony')?

And, yeah, right. There's no difference at all between the parties. Which is why there's an 8 trillion or so deficit since 2000 (growing by an average 1.5 billion per day), why thousands have been killed since 2002 in an unwinnable conflagration that on the face of it is guaranteed to destabilize the most volatile area on Earth, why right now a new era of economic policy seemingly designed to increase stagflation is being ushered in, why a city full of taxpaying Americans has been left to ruin, and why in the last five years the U.S. has added new jobs at the lowest rate in a century (and those are due not to idiotic tax cuts but to government spending.)

All this has happened since 2001, as Congress took control of all three branches of government for the first time in half a century. Oh, and when the last time Repubs held both branches of Congress and the Presidency (save two years under Eisenhower), we got the Great Depression in our Christmas stockings.

Frankly, I'd run like hell to distance myself from such a party, too.

rikki's picture

If they are all equally

Submitted by rikki on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:42pm.

If they are all equally incompetent, then they are all equally competent, which means you are not actually convinced this administration is incompetent. You just nullify the meaning of the word so you can pretend to agree and avoid a real conversation (which you succeeding at quite well, though not as well as Les).

Do you believe the Bush administration has demonstrated incompetence above and beyond that which you perceive by default in all things governmental? 

SayUncle's picture

'If they are all equally

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 1:55pm.

'If they are all equally incompetent, then they are all equally competent, which means you are not actually convinced this administration is incompetent.'

Not the way for you to win this one. If i must choose between two equally incompetent/competent groups, i'm probably going to go with the incompetent/competent group that i am more likely to agree with on more issues.

'Do you believe the Bush administration has demonstrated incompetence above and beyond that which you perceive by default in all things governmental? '

if you had stopped it at incompetence, i'd agree. when you get to the 'above and beyond', i'd say no.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

rikki's picture

no point

Submitted by rikki on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 4:17pm.

There is no point in conversing with you on this subject since you seem to believe incompetence is a trait which all politicians possess in equal amounts. Rendering words meaningless is another fine technique for avoiding dialogue. You are a warrior for complacency!

SayUncle's picture

'There is no point in

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 4:22pm.

'There is no point in conversing with you on this subject since you seem to believe incompetence is a trait which all politicians possess in equal amounts.'

First, that's a lame cop out. This is the part where you say 'but these guys are competent' or 'these guys are so much more incompetent' or 'you're right.' Incompetence is a trait inherent in government, no matter who's pulling the strings. It's merely a funciton of the big, bloated beast. Until that's fixed, there will be no change.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

Eleanor A's picture

Awfully convenient

Submitted by Eleanor A on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 4:23pm.

For those who believe "they're all the same." Gets one off the hook for having to do actual work to elect anybody, or promote any particular plan of action.

Too bad there's not an official 'Laziness Party' for these folks...

SayUncle's picture

It's not laziness. It's

Submitted by SayUncle on Fri, 2006/08/18 - 4:48pm.

It's not laziness. It's realizing what's happening. The 1990 republicans ran on:

less taxes
small government
honesty and integrity in government
accountability
etc.

that was when i was a republican. they blew it on every one of those except taxes. at the time, i knew what i was getting with the Ds. Now, I realize i get it no matter if the folks in office have Ds or Rs after their names. So, i'm jaded.

I'm far from lazy. Though, you calling me lazy is a good way to excuse yourself for being a partisan hack, i guess.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

Les Jones's picture

About that alleged terrorist plot

Submitted by Les Jones on Mon, 2006/08/21 - 5:59pm.

Charges have been filed. Gee, does that make it an official terrorist plot now? 

Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)

Factchecker's picture

Gee, does that make it an

Submitted by Factchecker on Mon, 2006/08/21 - 7:53pm.

Gee, does that make it an official terrorist plot now?

For those who are obsessive-compulsive about shilling for Bush, Cheney, and Rove, I'm sure it already was.  As something that proves there was a significant threat, or that the Bush administration deserves any credit, not so much.    

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