Bad news? Island Home, Spence Place Subdivided

Fri

May 11 2007

03:17 pm

By: bizgrrl

A plot of land with the same single family home for 80 years or so on lovely Spence Place, in the wonderful, historic Island Home neighborhood, is apparently now up for a small subdivision. The land, approximately 1.9 acres, can now be divided into 6 lots, 3 of which are on the river/lake.

Is nothing sacred?

Topics:

bizgrrl's blog
Login or register to post comments

rezoned already?

Submitted by infostat on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 7:40am.

Has this already been through MPC & City Council?

Expectations

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 8:06am.

Bizgrrl, your post disturbs me but not for the same reason. This is a perfect example of what John Edwards calls the two Americas. Except in this case it’s two waterfronts. The neighborhood inside the Island Home columns is “wonderful and historic” and worthy of preservation. But just outside the columns one could build a 10,000 s.f. apartment building, 15 or more units with the city’s blessing and encouragement. We expect two sets of standards, one for upper middle class neighborhoods (and schools) and one for working class folks.

____________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Martha, Bite

Submitted by Rachel on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 3:09pm.

Martha,

Bite me.

Sincerely,

Rachel

Don't be coy

Submitted by Nelle on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 3:33pm.

C'mon, Rachel, tell us how you really feel!

Yeah, well, I had just

Submitted by Rachel on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 4:14pm.

Yeah, well, I had just walked in from burying my 18 year old cat, and I am in no mood to take any more "oh, but you live in the RICH neighborhood" shit off Martha. I've been hearing it for 2 years now.

IMO, Martha gets off on playing the victim. She yells bloody murder if anybody else slanders her neighborhood, yet she's the never tires of telling us how much worse off it is.

And BTW, I didn't see her standing up for Old Sevier, an equally working class neighborhood, when they were trying to keep Bill Baxter and company from getting taller building heights close to them. In fact, she ENDORSED those building heights - as long as they weren't directly impacting her.

I've had all I can take of her poor mouthing. And BTW, ask her how much property she owns and what it's all worth - I know for a fact that it's a great deal more than the one piece of property I own here in Richville.

Enough. ENOUGH!

Randy, if you feel the need to delete these posts, feel free.

P.S. I will write more about the proposed subdivision when I feel better and when I have some additional facts. I only heard about it a couple of days ago.

Sympathies

Submitted by Nelle on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 4:20pm.

Oh, goodness, I'm sorry to hear about your cat. They're wonderful beasties, aren't they?

I look forward to hearing your take on the Island Home subdivision.

Pondering

Submitted by Rachel on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 8:08pm.

So some hours after an angry post, I'm sitting here deciding if I was too harsh. Probably too indiscreet, but nope, not too harsh. It was time to call bullshit, well, bullshit.

There are a lot of us who love south Knoxville - ALL of south Knoxville. Some of us have master's degrees (oh yeah, there's another manifestation of UGC's "working class" status), some of us didn't graduate high school. Some of us are well off, some are poor, most are somewhere in the middle. Some are stay at home moms, some are college professors, some drive trucks. Some are landscape architects. Some are even politicians.

We have a variety of opinions about just how to best nurture and improve our community. And even if we could all agree on exactly what would be ideal, we'd still be up against some constraints affecting how we get there. But just because we don't all agree with Martha on every point doesn't make us evil. It doesn't even make us wrong.

And you know, it sucks just as much for her to attack my neighborhood and the folks who live here as it would for me to attack hers. Which I've never done, BTW.

I had to laugh out loud at

Submitted by bizgrrl on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 4:28pm.

I had to laugh out loud at Rachel's response. Only because I know how hard she has worked to keep the SoKno Waterfront development going in a good direction. Martha has worked pretty hard on this as well. A lot of people have worked hard, but until you have truly been a South Knoxvillian you may not completely understand. We (or most I believe) love the area and they put a big ugly road right down the middle. They could of at least made it pretty. What will they do next?

Oh, I tend to agree with

Submitted by bizgrrl on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 8:49am.

Oh, I tend to agree with you, UGC. I am one that is not pleased with the size and quantity of condos (or just large buildings) planned along the SoKno Waterfront. I wish they could have planned for more of a single-family home community along that area, whether it was zero-lot line or very small lots with more green space preserved along the river.

A lot of the areas along the SoKno Waterfront are historic. Island Home is a little unique in that it does not have any businesses mixed in with the residential and retains its look, style, value, or whatever whereas some of the other areas, e.g. Sevier Ave. and Phillips Street have not. I, as I am sure you can as well, remember Sevier Ave. with grocery stores, drug stores, a hardware store, real gas stations, Bondurant Bros, a community pool, etc.

Good news?

Submitted by Nelle on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 3:25pm.

To answer the question in your headline, I don't see this, necessarily, as bad news.

I too find Island Home to be an utterly charming neighborhood. However, many of the lots are typically small, urban-sized lots. Just based on looking at KGIS, many of the lots along the boulevard are about 75x160, which is 12,000 square feet, or just under one-third of an acre.

The subdivision you're talking about, splitting a 1.9-acre lot into 6 lots, would yield lots of just under one-third acre each, if they're of equal size. So this subdivision has the potential of creating lots whose size is very much in character with the rest of the neighborhood.

The design and orientation of the new houses would also have to be in character with the neighborhood, which is a big "if" in the city. But it's a very organized neighborhood, so I'm hopeful that they can see that the new houses fit it.

It doesn't appear from KGIS that the neighborhood has a historic overlay, which surprises me. But they could adopt the city's new infill overlay to increase the likelihood that infill development is appropriate.

I'm of the mind that reasonable increases in density can be good for urban neighborhoods, assuming it's designed and located appropriately. More people add more life to the street, increase the viability of neighborhood businesses, and, if the newcomers are choosing the city over the 'burbs, it reduces the pressure to sprawl.

Maybe so, Nelle. However,

Submitted by bizgrrl on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 4:38pm.

Maybe so, Nelle. However, when these types of neighborhoods (e.g. Island Home) were originally "planned" there was a purpose for the different sizes of lots and houses. There was a plan for a mix of different types of people with different levels of income. Island Home, Sequoyah Hills, Springbrook in Alcoa were all planned with this in mind. There's nothing wrong with a little diversity.

IMHO I don't think Knoxville has to worry about infill just yet. There are usually plenty of small, inexpensive homes on small, inexpensive lots for sale close to town that can be fixed up, added on, torn down and re-built to satisfy the demand.

Personally, I'd be a little hesitant to buy a lot in the lower portion of this 1.9 acres. It may only be in the 500 year flood plain, but having lived in Florida I have a great understanding of the statements "it hasn't flooded here in 18 years" then in year 22 that lower lot is now a swamp for 5 years and going. My house wasn't in the swamp but we lost a great frisbee throwing area.

Coupla things

Submitted by Nelle on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 4:58pm.

That's a very good point about the importance of diversity within neighborhoods. It's something that most new developments are totally lacking, by design, and that most older neighborhoods have, either as a result of good planning or of changes over the years.

As far as infill goes, you're right that there's still plenty of affordable housing in the city, some already fixed up, some with enormous potential. There is, however, lots of crappy infill going on, including trailers being plopped down on empty lots, and neighborhoods that want to protect themselves need to be organized, IMHO.

all about town

Submitted by S Carpenter on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 3:31pm.

I have to admit it made me pause to read UpGooseCreek's suggestion about rich goose and poor gander but then I thought bzzgrrl, in response, put her finger on the distinction.

SITUATIONAL DISCLAIMER: And this from someone who lives in a “wonderful and historic” and worthy of preservation neighborhood ... with a 10,000 s.f. apartment building, 15 or more units abutting my back yard.

Some background

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 9:33pm.

By some quirk of fate, immediately before I logged to Knoxviews yesterday I had been talking to Bob Becker about the new infill housing ordinance. I've been looking at some property in a single family neighborhood that I thought would be great for a cluster of little cottages. (not near the waterfront or even South Knoxville BTW)

So my first reaction is : Uh... Oh... this makes me the bad guy, I'm contemplating the exact same thing. Somewhere along the way I thought about how the listing brief talks about rezoning for multi family.... where did that come from when the nearest apartment complex is over half a mile away across a busy highway??? Maybe because it's a working class neighborhood and the Realtor just assumes you can get away with it.

Rachel's right, I'm not poor. And neither is John Edwards (though I'm a whole lot poorer than him). I don't believe that means we can't talk about class disparity.*

I'm sorry to hear about your cat, Rachel.

BTW the new infill ordinance contains a clause that infill houses be in character with surrounding houses. I'm looking forward to finding out more about it.

* Does it help that I traded a watermelon for my last haircut?

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Original intent

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 10:01pm.

However, when these types of neighborhoods (e.g. Island Home) were originally "planned" there was a purpose for the different sizes of lots and houses.

I am looking at a tax map from the '80's and it shows the shadows of the original subdivision lots in this area. They are similar in size to the rest of the development. There are two rows of lots, with a "Riverview Drive" running along the bank of the river. The lot in question contains 5 1/2 of the original lots.

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Rachel

Submitted by Sam on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 10:19pm.

Please accept my sympathy in the loss of your beloved cat.

There are two rows of lots,

Submitted by R. Neal on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 11:02pm.

There are two rows of lots, with a "Riverview Drive" running along the bank of the river. The lot in question contains 5 1/2 of the original lots.

Can you clarify? What are "two rows of lots", where is the "Drive" and what is "5 1/2 of the original lots"?

Not being cranky, I'm just not following....

Clarification

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 11:21pm.

Sorry for the serial postings but I did want to make it clear that while I anticipate there will be fierce opposition to this development from within IHP, I didn't necessarily expect it would come from Rachel.

If I was attacking anyone it was IHP residents other than Rachel who are happy to expound the virtues of commercial street corners or high density housing or whatever, but when asked about a pastry shop or apartments in THEIR neighborhood back away in a great big hurry.

"I wish they could have planned for more of a single-family home community along that area, whether it was zero-lot line or very small lots with more green space preserved along the river."

BizGrrl, a large portion of the neighborhood is single family homes and is likely to remain that way. No one is being FORCED to build apartment buildings (I hope). Also a lot of the new construction is going to take the form of zero lot line townhomes.
___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

If I was attacking anyone it

Submitted by Rachel on Sat, 2007/05/12 - 11:26pm.

You know, I haven't met these people. But maybe you talk to more folks in my neighborhood than I do. Who's been expounding the virtues of commercial street corner to you and then opposing a pastry shop in IHP? Name names, girl. Put up or shut up.

Names

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sun, 2007/05/13 - 6:22am.

And this from someone who has given me repeated tounge lashings for criticizing someone by name.

But I have e-mailed you the names privately.
__________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

I never tonguelashed you for

Submitted by Rachel on Sun, 2007/05/13 - 2:30pm.

I never tonguelashed you for criticizing people by name. I tonguelashed you for misquoting them, insisting they had evil motives, etc.

Example 1: It's the difference between "Person A said that he had to balance all interests, including absentee landlords", and "Person A said the only people he cared about were absentee landlords."

Example 2: Person A is advocating a particular policy for my neighborhood. I think it's a bad, maybe even destructive policy. Versus.... Person A and the City are "pimping my neighborhood."

Is it really that hard to tell the difference?

Original lots etc.

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sun, 2007/05/13 - 7:14am.

Randy, My map indicates a row of lots immediately north of Spence Place, similar in size to those on the south. Then space is shown for an alley. To the north of the alley is another row of similar size lots and then space for a road abutting the river. The lot in question encompasses 3 lots on the northern tier and 2 1/2 lots on the southern tier.

I just mentioned this as a response to the argument that those lots were originally planned as large lots. Any redevelopment of a large lot would have to go through a resubdivision process.

Island Home is a little unique in that it does not have any businesses mixed in with the residential and retains its look, style, value, or whatever whereas some of the other areas, e.g. Sevier Ave. and Phillips Street have not.

4 blocks of Phillips don't contain businesses, Nor does the Augusta/Cambridge area, Mimosa near Atchley, the west end of Scottish Pike and the SW section of Blount. They retain their look and style, and (for most of the houses)value, it's just that value wasn't high to begin with. And if you are arguing that a neighborhood should be redeveloped because it has declined in value, I will be happy to reminisce about 4th & Gill in the late '70s and early 80's. Should those houses have been destroyed?

Scott, your neighborhood was in a pretty bad state of decline at the time that those apartments were built. It's a little more evidence of a lack of respect for low income neighborhoods.

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Thanks

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Mon, 2007/05/14 - 7:45am.

Thanks for the critique.

I hope we can continue to talk about infill housing, in this or any other community. I'm curious to know if the proposal calls for tearing down the existing house.

____________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Re the house on Spence

Submitted by bizgrrl on Mon, 2007/05/14 - 7:52am.

Re the house on Spence Place, the house and an extra lot to the right are for sale as one unit. The lot to the left can be purchased separately as can the 3 lots behind the house.

infill

Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Tue, 2007/05/15 - 3:53pm.

There would have to be a 40' joint permanent easment to build new houses in the rear. It appears there's plenty of room for that beside the house. One of the front lots would have to remain open as a potential driveway.

I'm so grateful our little city hasn't succombed to the tear down fever that has gripped other cities. I hope it doesn't start here.

I noticed that the 822 contour runs pretty close to the river at this lot, 30' or so. By contrast it is halfway up the lots of the homes on Scottish Pike - 100' or so. So it may not be qute so flood prone as you assume.

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

South in the New York Times

Submitted by Pamela Treacy on Thu, 2007/05/17 - 1:45pm.

I thought this group might interested in this New York Times story on South Knoxville Waterfront project.

(link...)

I wonder how many South

Submitted by jbr on Thu, 2007/05/17 - 4:08pm.

I wonder how many South Knoxville folks will be left in the area once this is all done. Developers buzzing around like hyenas around a dead carcass.

Worst subdivision name ever

Submitted by Nelle on Thu, 2007/05/17 - 4:50pm.

"Buzzing hyenas"

ok, here's what I think I

Submitted by Rachel on Fri, 2007/05/18 - 12:04am.

ok, here's what I think I know about this and what I think I think.

First of all, what appears to be one parcel of land on KGIS is actually several (the exact # still seems in dispute, but I think it's three on the river and 2 on Spence, with the current house built across the 2 street lots). From what I understand, when the purchasers closed on those lots they should have been resubbed into one parcel. But they weren't. So there's no "subdividing" to do here - the land is already legally subdivided. This goes not just for the "lot" in question, but for the other properties along the river that appear to be single large lots.

I haven't seen the actual MLS listing, but my understanding is that the owner was offering either the existing house and all the property for $750,000, or 4 "developed" lots for a substantial sum apiece. I'm assuming - as most folks over here did - that by that the owner (who is a contractor) meant he would do the developing.

It is also my understanding that there is now a contract for the entire parcel, making this issue moot for now.

Wrt infill in IHP, I'm a fan. I would love to see appropriate (by that I mean, appropriate in scale and character to the neighborhood) infill housing on vacant street-fronting lots (there aren't a lot of those, but there are a few). Also, contrary to what certain others may think, I personally would be absolutely fine with corner lot neighborhood commercial, although it would violate the current zoning.

When IHP was platted, there was an additional street along the river. The street never got built and the City closed this ROW about 10 years ago, when some property owners got scared that the City would build a - gasp - greenway - along it. In my opinion this was a BIG mistake, but it's done.

I mention this in order to say that IF this road could be built, and houses built along it - in other words, if we essentially added an east-west street to the existing neighborhood street grid - I'd have absolutely no problem with infill along that street between Spence & the river. (There are folks over here who would object to seeing that space developed under any circumstances, but I'm not one of them.)

However, I am bothered by the idea that that individual property owners might each develop the lots behind their houses by using joint permanent easement for access - in essence, creating a series of cul-de-sacs off Spence toward the river. THAT concerns me - cul-de-sacs don't belong in a neighorhood platted in 1910.

And I can just see one of those hideous marker stones at each entrance - the Pointe at Island Home (the "e" on Point required, of course), the Reserve at Island Home, etc. These are the kind of things that make me shudder.

Councilman Hultquist has been talking with MPC about doing some kind of study to see what development options might be - I think that would be a good idea. It would give both property owners and their neighbors a chance to discuss what's legally possible, and what other options might be better.

And for whoever asked about an H-1 overlay (Nelle, I think), the IHPNA board voted last night to start the H-1 process. (This was NOT a result of the Spence Place stuff; an exploratory committee I chaired has been looking at this for a couple of months, and just happened to be making our recommendation to the board last night).

All I got for now.

God you guys are a bunch of

Submitted by Mark Shetterly on Fri, 2007/05/18 - 8:47pm.

God you guys are a bunch of anal geeks, crabbing over your little plots of land in a city that has already gone WAY over the line of what is reasonable development. Knoxville is already a wasteland of new construction and has no respect for history. They've shown this in great detail in Fort Sanders and Fountain City. Be grateful if you have a nice little house and a nice little yard without a Walmart butting up against it or half your front yard being taken for road widening. When I lived there south knox was a run down mess of pawn shops, housing projects and lower class neighborhoods.
You want a nice place to live in a city that hasn't already sold itself down the river to developers? Move to Chattanooga.

You want a nice place to

Submitted by Andy Axel on Fri, 2007/05/18 - 9:25pm.

You want a nice place to live in a city that hasn't already sold itself down the river to developers? Move to Chattanooga.

{cough}Bob Corker!{cough}{cough}{cough}

____________________________

Deliver this message to the one I love the most:
"I've lost all my money to a 300 pound ghost."
Squeaky was a sad child; the product of neglect.
Got stoned by a jellyfish demanding her respect...

Here's hoping Member No. 1

Submitted by ultron on Fri, 2007/05/18 - 9:34pm.

Here's hoping Member No. 1 presses the dump button on that guy ...

I had the good fortune to

Submitted by Mark Shetterly on Sat, 2007/05/19 - 11:06pm.

I had the good fortune to live in Chattanooga during the last bit of Bob Corkers tenure there. The man did a great job and Chattanooga is much better for having him. I was glad to be able to vote for him in the last election too. I guess you all jumped on the Ford bandwagon with the other deluded socialists.

"Here's hoping Member No. 1 presses the dump button on that guy ..."

Wouldn't be the first time. Typical Marxist thought process, get rid of any opinions we don't like...

I guess you all jumped on

Submitted by Rachel on Sun, 2007/05/20 - 12:23am.

I guess you all jumped on the Ford bandwagon with the other deluded socialists.

Why do all the wingnuts think the worst thing they can call a person is "socialist"?

I'm more insulted by the "deluded."

Why do all the wingnuts

Submitted by Andy Axel on Sun, 2007/05/20 - 7:24pm.

Why do all the wingnuts think the worst thing they can call a person is "socialist"?

That's an "insult" straight from 1983. They're trapped in a vortex pre-dating Reagan's descent into gauzy, irretractable dementia.

____________________________

Deliver this message to the one I love the most:
"I've lost all my money to a 300 pound ghost."
Squeaky was a sad child; the product of neglect.
Got stoned by a jellyfish demanding her respect...

You are electing who has

Submitted by jbr on Sun, 2007/05/20 - 8:32pm.

You are electing who has influence over him . I think that is the case with Corker. The Haslam's, etc.

I view Corker as being heavily pro-developer, roadbuilder, etc. At the expense of personal homeowners rights.

Here are his biggest contributors...

Top contributers via name

Top by Industry

Discussing:

Are Chat bots a waste of time? (1 reply)
Smith & Wesson noise problem (1 reply)
Musicians dropping out of President's Freedom Concert Series (1 reply)
It's time for new blood in Congress, Barnett in - Burchett out (1 reply)
Burning Down The House... (2 replies)
Behind Lege Lies (1 reply)
Peace (1 reply)
Speak your truth, fight and believe. (1 reply)
Large banks have too much AI data center debt? (1 reply)
GOP misleading on federal health care funding (1 reply)
Feds indict civil rights group (3 replies)
Georgia issues burn ban, first time in state history (2 replies)

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Knox TN Today

Local TV News

News Sentinel

State News

Wire Reports

Local Media

Lost Medicaid Funding

To date, the failure to expand Medicaid/TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding. (Source)

Comment viewing options

Discussing:

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Knox TN Today

Local TV News

News Sentinel

State News

Wire Reports

Local Media

Lost Medicaid Funding

Search and Archives

TN Progressive

Nearby:

Beyond:

At large:

Government

About