Tue
Oct 6 2009
05:14 pm

In short, we're already getting our butt kicked in alternative energy. As I told Art Laffer, it doesn't matter whether you believe in global warming or not, it does matter than the other 90% of the world does and that's where the economic growth is. Fidiot.
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Where is the rest of the story?
Economic growth? As compared to what? What is the percent to total of all power generation?
The chart is puzzling. Who is the "rest of world". All that is known is that it isn't Europe, the U.S., or Japan. Is it Elbonia?
The chart is puzzling. I
I actually agree. Are "shipments" exports, imports, or what?
At any rate, while I support renewable energy, our economy has more immediate roadblocks to overcome.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
Wow! The accountant is back
Wow! The accountant is back to insinuate us some more great
junkscience. Tell us, 9, is the work you do paid for by government contracts (Oak Ridge, Medicare or the like)?Global warming economy?
If the global warming industry is a growth "economy" it is so only to the extent governments tax corporations and citiizens in order to subsidize clean energy.
At this point the so-called clean energy "economy" is pure non-profit; it is a social policy not an economy.
That's not to say it is bad social policy just do not try peddling the notion that clean energy is economically viable - at least not yet.
And then there are the harmful clean energy schemes like using food stuffs and feed corn to produce fuel for cars - even the UN calls this a crime against humanity. (I call it a pay off to lobbiests and corporate welfare)
Then there's the cap and tax plan to gind the imporvished into despair and crush the middle class while enriching the fat cat corporate lords and profiteers like Al Gore.
pol it
By your argument
- Home construction is pure non-profit (because it is subsidized)
- Air travel and highway transport is non-profit (ditto)
- Medical reasearch and pharm is non-profit (ditto)
You people kill me
You don't have a clue about the economics of green energy today.
In the future - hopefully near future you will be right. But not here, not now. And not even The One can squeeze enough taxes out us to change this.
Your ridiculous bleats about everything being subsidized is moronic. At least some industries and or ventures return more than is put into them.
That is not true of any green energy solution at this time.
You people are so clueless. Even if you had your precious solar panels and windmills you can't integrate them into the power grid on a large scale without increase our carbon footprint (can you say gas fired turbine power plants that spin up fast to make up the power needs when the sun plays peak-a-boo or we hit the dolldrums)
New Rules
Energy Self-Reliant States: Second and Expanded Edition
...you can't integrate them
...you can't integrate them into the power grid on a large scale without increase our carbon footprint (can you say gas fired turbine power plants that spin up fast to make up the power needs when the sun plays peak-a-boo or we hit the dolldrums)
How does replacing the burning of coal with solar power and natural gas backup increase carbon emissions?
It's called the grid
How does replacing the burning of coal with solar power and natural gas backup increase carbon emissions?
The point is there isn't a replacement. It is an integration problem.
(link...)
A 'nagging problem" for people who don't understand...
.. basic physics:
(link...)
(link...)
And, I should point out, people aren't talking about removing fossil plants completely. The goal is to improve the mix towards more sustainable and greener generation to meet future demand. You're knocking down straw men.
The TVA pumped water method
The TVA pumped water method is better than the compressed air method.
How many places can use either method?
It isn't a straw man. Your two "solutions" prove that. This is the key problem. How to integrate solar or wind power into the grid for a net benefit. You give two possible solutions that require unique methods that cannot be used in most places.
The best answer is battery storage. But it isn't cost effective and there are disposal problems at end of life. You are talking about really huge batteries.
Maybe this is the answer:
(link...)
Maybe not.
It is not an unsolvable problem. But today, there is no cost benefit and like another commenter said, we have bigger issues that need time and money right now. Spend money on R&D and find something that works. Or follow Gaia hysteria and waste a lot of time and money now.
How many people really believe we have only ten years to save the planet? That kind of sales pitch hurts any chance of credibility. Going green to cut down on pollution is a better sell than Gaia is angry and will burn us up.
(link...)
How many people really
Answer: No one. The planet will survive. People who believe that the planet will cease to exist without human support are ignoring 4.5 billion years of planetary history.
I've met Dr. Lovelock, author of the Gaia Hypothesis. He gave a lecture entitled "The Earth is Not Fragile," in which he stated words to this effect (I'm paraphrasing here, but this lecture was given in 1990 or 1991 and I didn't take precise notes): "Every time someone starts talking about 'the fragile planet,' it makes me want to loose the safety on my Browning." (Yes, he was paraphrasing Hanns Johst, and indicated that he was, tongue-in-cheek.)
He emphatically states that the emergent consensus on climate change (yes, people were seriously talking about this in the 1980s) is not about saving the planet. It's about preserving a narrow range of climactic conditions which has allowed mammalian life forms (including human life) on this planet to propogate and to sustain themselves. He's not exactly sanguine about the prospects for our species, for what that's worth. That shouldn't be confused with the hysterics predicting planetary collapse, because that's never been what Lovelock has said. Quite the contrary.
But if "planet" = "human race," and there are those who use these terms interchangeably, Lovelock is predicting a global extinction-level event by the year 2100 caused by global climate change. Again, he's not consulting the Mayan calendar or quoting Nostradamus; he's making a sober prediction based on records and trends. He remains controversial, but he can ably defend his own hypotheses. It's a far more rich and interesting debate, and a far more legitimate controversy than the buncombe about "intelligent design." And he has much more enlightening things to add to the discourse than Colorado ski reports.
You might want to actually read "The Ages of Gaia." It's serious science, not a gaggle of bunny-worshipping pantheists spouting the benefits of daily genuflection before a crystal altar. I know from having these discussions with you over the years that pure sciences aren't your bag, but you could at least try going to a primary resource for once and save yourself some thorough embarrassment.
Yet, in your inimitable pullquote style, I can't wait to see you becoming a staunch defender of Richard Dawkins. That'll be entertaining, to say the very least.
____________________________
Calling to the underworld. Come out of the cupboard, you boys and girls.
How many places?
Anyplace with a salt cavern can use compressed air.
Anyplace with other than flat terrain can use pumped storage (or a man-made structure could be used with a denser media). 95%+
I think the 'recovered energy' rate with these approaches are much much higher than that of splitting water into H2/O2 and recombining in a fuel cell (80%?)
Just shaving the peak generation down to use renewable should be the first goal.
"How many places can use
"How many places can use either method?"
There's a shortage of air in Farragut?
Visit us at:
The Home
The reason conservatives are
The reason conservatives are being programmed by Rush and O'Reilly and those guys to hate solar is because it can be decentralized. This makes the central planning politburo nervous.
New product
(link...)
Direct AC solar panels beat the heck out of the DC panels. But the break even is still 18 years without government rebates.
Interesting
You still have to replace the meter with a reversing meter, but yes, you do eliminate the inverter. (Does KUB swap your meter, or is that the owner's responsibility? I think the latter).
Would make for an interesting grid-tie system. All those people who complain about the long payback: consider the non-utility costs of electricity (coal burned = dirtier air, more ash ponds, more mountaintop removal, etc). Our payback for our solar water system was longer than I'd like, but I justified it based on the other social benefits as an "all other things being equal" argument.
Click on the picture. Note
Click on the picture. Note the number of parts and complexity of the current DC solar panel system. Now compare that to the AC solar panel system.
Less working parts is better. The next thing I would be interested in is the mean time before failure.
However you look at it, the new systems are worth the wait.
AC/DC
(link...)
I would rather have had the $400 billion that is needed in the above plan invested in solar power generation than was wasted by our President and Congress on their porkulous packages. At least it would have created some jobs. It would have been very expensive job creation, but at least there would be something to show for it.
But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Building a direct-current (DC) transmission backbone would be incredibly costly. Integrating green energy into the AC grid we have now is very difficult and costly. It's about priorities. It's about cost benefit. It is about net benefit. As long as team progressive refuses to hold Obama accountable, solar is pie in the sky. Your solar wishes went to government pork. Call the President and let him know how you feel.
As long as team Gaia uses Global Warming fears to sell solar, solar is dead. You need some marketing people. You want us to believe. And your pitch is to scare people? Good luck.
You all cannot hear how you sound. It is so radical and so alarmist. People are worried the government is going to tax them to insolvency. Your plans all have trillion dollar price tags. Figure out what you want. You can't have government health care, social redistribution of wealth, and green energy. Of those choices, I would pick green energy. The problem is you want more than we have money for.
I'd take solar over wind any day. Even with the warts solar has. But today, can any of you show how "green" energy really pays for itself without taxes as the major fuel source? Is it green because that is the color of tax dollars?
The federal government would have to invest more than $400 billion over the next 40 years to complete the 2050 plan. That investment is substantial, but the payoff is greater. Solar plants consume little or no fuel, saving billions of dollars year after year. The infrastructure would displace 300 large coal-fired power plants and 300 more large natural gas plants and all the fuels they consume. The plan would effectively eliminate all imported oil, fundamentally cutting U.S. trade deficits and easing political tension in the Middle East and elsewhere. Because solar technologies are almost pollution-free, the plan would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions from power plants by 1.7 billion tons a year, and another 1.9 billion tons from gasoline vehicles would be displaced by plug-in hybrids refueled by the solar power grid.
No backbone as in the magic
No backbone as in the magic box? The decentralized miracle box.
Okay, let's cost the parts.
Solar cells on roof.
Magic batteries for electrical storage.
DC/AC converter.
Various computer control parts.
Wiring.
Installation.
How did we do?
Let me know when it has a seven year break even without tax subsidies or tax credits. I will want one.
Love the magic box. You may have forgotten that in the fifties each home of the future was to have a nuclear magic box that would supply all power needs. It would even charge the rocket car in the garage.
I still want that rocket car.
You mean like this?
$100 Billion in Stimulus for Renewables:
(link...)
How much did Dubya encourage development of this new industry? Oh yeah, he killed it every chance he got.
(BTW, why do you keep bringing up this Gaia / GW crap? My OP specifically said the issue is that America is being left behind in this industry, and it doesn't matter whether you believe in GW or not!)
...
(BTW, why do you keep bringing up this Gaia / GW crap? My OP specifically said the issue is that America is being left behind in this industry, and it doesn't matter whether you believe in GW or not!)
Simple, because that is the predominate marketing. Did I accuse you directly? It is a mistake to invoke as you say the Gaia/GW crap. I agree completely.
My original point was that you provided no basis for the graph. That information was missing. You never got around to answering the basic questions of what is the percent to total power generation? Who is the rest of the "world"? How is this economic growth if it is simply replacing existing power generation? That is Obama stimulus logic. Which is false logic.
Explain the cost of decommissioning the existing plants. Is that economic growth or expense? It would be much better to slip stream this as those power plants are amortized and are due to be decomissioned at end of life.
Will the people with jobs at the coal plants be offered jobs at the solar plants as first in line? Your idea needs work. It is conceptual at this point. Not real world.
"Who is the rest of the
"Who is the rest of the "world"?"
I think this was answered already- Malaysia, Indonesia, Korea etc, probably mostly the Far East. The salient point is to see America's market share dwindling to nothing.
Cost of decommissioning existing plants? What are you talking about? Who is talking about shutting down existing plants?
You seem to be pretty good at putting words in my mouth and attributing paranoid delusions of hippies run amok to... well, thin air.
Put your straw aside and have a conversation for once.
missed a link?
Cost of decommissioning existing plants? What are you talking about? Who is talking about shutting down existing plants?
Scientific American.
(link...)
The federal government would have to invest more than $400 billion over the next 40 years to complete the 2050 plan. That investment is substantial, but the payoff is greater. Solar plants consume little or no fuel, saving billions of dollars year after year. The infrastructure would displace 300 large coal-fired power plants and 300 more large natural gas plants and all the fuels they consume. The plan would effectively eliminate all imported oil, fundamentally cutting U.S. trade deficits and easing political tension in the Middle East and elsewhere. Because solar technologies are almost pollution-free, the plan would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions from power plants by 1.7 billion tons a year, and another 1.9 billion tons from gasoline vehicles would be displaced by plug-in hybrids refueled by the solar power grid.
Um.. whose plan is this?
... as it's totally unrealistic. I don't see it having any basis in any published or proposed public policy. All I could trace it two were two 'scientists' I've never heard of. Again, put down your Popular Mechanics and join the real world.
Obama's published idea is 25% of ELECTRICITY by 2025 from renewables (all renewables, not just solar). Given the rate of consumption growth, that doesn't mean retiring ANY plants, and still building a few more fossil plants along the way.
Again, put your straw men away and let's debate the public policy proposed by actual leaders that might (guffaw, guffaw..yeah right) be passed into law.
So, read this first, then open your mouth. Keep mouth shut until then.
(link...)
You'll see his plan for reducing oil imports mostly revolves around more domestic production of oil and gas.
Obama the magnificent
I will admit Obama is impressive. He won the Nobel Prize for just two weeks of his Presidency. That's a first.
So Obama wants 1 million electric cars on the road by 2015, and you think that is feasible? Obama says 10 percent of electricity from renewable sources by 2012, and you think that is feasible?
nah
'course not. "'merrikkin can-do" cain't do nuthin' no more. no point even tryin'.
"To the moon, Alice!"
Absolutely.
The Prius alone sells 150,000 to 180,000 per year in the United States. Add in all the other hybrids, and we probably have a million of those already. I don't see a 100% electric by 2015 with that much market share unless somebody steps up with battery swapout stations.
10% of electricity from renewables by 2012? Not by that date. I think Obama meant to include hydro in that number, while most renewable proponents are concerned with the non-hydro # and are talking about 10% by 2020, which is quite feasible:
(link...)
But, as my track coach used to say: "If you shoot for nothin', you'll probably make it."
"They want America to shoot
"They want America to shoot for nothing."
While fighting tooth and nail for the right to shoot at at everything, anywhere.
I'll stop.
Things that make you go hmm...
Interesting:
(link...)
Rebuttal?
Um...
.. exactly how is this any different from "plowing up farmland" to build an intramodal transportation facility (which encourages more GHG emissions), or a new un-needed industrial park?
But yes, I agree, brownfields should be looked at first for ANY kind of industrial development, to find fits where possible.
.. exactly how is this any
.. exactly how is this any different from "plowing up farmland" to build an intramodal transportation facility (which encourages more GHG emissions), or a new un-needed industrial park?
When you change the topic, as often as you do, should you cry strawman?
Her column had nothing to do with the Midway Industrial Park. Or the intramodal transportation facility in Jefferson County. A little rhetorical hypocrisy?
Drawing a comparison
.. isn't changing the topic. The issue raised in the column was whether it was hypocritical to use farmland to build solar cell factories. You asked for a response, so I said we use farmland to build all kind of industrial facilities, so her criticism seemed misplaced and without basis.
I then went on to say that I agreed with her that brownfields should be used first, but clarifying that should be the standard for commercial development, no matter what the industry.
I addressed the columns, I addressed your question. I didn't ask you or anyone to defend Midway or the intermodal facility at all (I simply used it as a point for comparison, that's all).
So, a little rhetorical hypocrisy? Answer: No.
Changing the topic? Answer: Not at all. Unless you can explain to me how I departed from addressing your post?