Mon
Jul 30 2007
05:24 pm
How does Knox County Sheriff J.J. Jones deal with an employee who took $10 worth of gas by using his county charge account? Does he allow the deputy to repay the money? Does he say 'sorry, it won't happen again'? No. He fires the deputy.
Quoting Sheriff Jones “problems with unethical and inappropriate conduct will be dealt with swiftly,” . Link to story (link...) .
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CBT, you're forgetting one
CBT, you're forgetting one thing:
The deputy is being prosecuted too.
Sounds kinda harsh to me.
Sounds kinda harsh to me. Was it a first offense? He's been on the force since 1993. Did he just now go bad? What did his commanders/supervisors say on his annual reviews?
Or is this more Hutch v. Ragsdale political grandstanding, at the expense of some poor guy with a family to feed?
Anyone caught stealing at work, whether government or not, should be punished.
I'm just asking. And I'm not suggesting that employee theft, government or otherwise, especially government, should be tolerated or overlooked.
Unless there's more to this
Unless there's more to this story, this seems rather harsh to me also. Not the guy shouldn't be punished, but you know punishment, crime, fits, all that.
You damn liberals just can't
You damn liberals just can't be satisfied!! You want heads to roll, we give you rolling heads and what happens? You complain about which heads it is. I mean, what's next, will you complain about the sharpness of the blade too?
CAFKIA
-----------------------------------------------------------
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
- William G. McAdoo
You know, I remember this
You know, I remember this from my TVA days - things were either so loosey-goosey that people could (and did) get away with stuff they shouldn't have, or policies and procedures were so tight they interfered with folks doing their jobs.
Finding the right balance is hard - it takes good judgement and management. But it makes more sense than enforcing no rules (which seems to describe the Mayor's office) or cutting off people's heads for any infraction, so matter how small.
There may be more to this story. This guy may have a history of poor performance. So I'm not passing judgment yet. And I'm certainly not excusing what he did.
I'm guessing other Sheriff's
I'm guessing other Sheriff's Office employees will know that punishment awaits. Sheriff Jones' office will be better off by meting out harsh punishment and not creating an atmosphere where illegal activity and a waste of taxpayer dollars becomes just the accepted way of doing business.
Hmmm...
Does seem kinda inconsistant, though, that the other KCSO employee in hot water today (in jail on $500,000 bond for solicitation to commit murder) was only placed on administrative leave. Doncha think?
(link...)
(Edit: Actually, I see now that both the jailer/solicitor to commit murder and the gas-strapped patrolman were placed on "unpaid leave pending termination." The gas-strapped patrolman story, though, carries the technically incorrect headline that the patrolman was "fired.")
I think it is sort of refreshing!
I mean, yeah, it was only 10 bucks worth of gas -- but look at the behavior. He had to plan ahead to do it by bringing a can to work to put the stolen gas in. This was no little slip-up of putting a pen in his pocket and accidentally taking it home. And who is to say he didn't steal one can of gas a week for the last fourteen years? Or that if he would steal from the taxpayers in that regard, how many other ways might he?
Not to mention, stealing is stealing. And this time, the guy who is supposed to carry out the public trust is the one doing the stealing. That's just creepy.
Theft
Stealing is stealing and should be punished... no questions asked...
Stealing is stealing and
Stealing is stealing and should be punished... no questions asked...
Ok, so I'm at work and a stick a pen or two in my briefcase to take to a meeting. The pens eventually end up at home. Should I be fired?
I'm guessing this or something much like it has happened to just about everybody on this blog.
I'm not trying to be difficult here - just interested in a discussion of where the lines should be drawn, and what punishments are appropriate to what offenses.
Pens vs. gasoline
I really think there's a difference between the pens and the gasoline, because the hypothetical pen theft was [probably] not premeditated or malicious. I mean, it would only be the same if you took your briefcase to the meeting for the express purpose of stealing as many pens as possible. This guy wasn't accidentally/absently/innocently slipping gasoline in that jug within the regular course of doing business and then noticing it and saying "oops" when he got home.
Upon hearing the story, it really does go a distance in restoring my faith that the graft I personally believe to be so rampant in county government will not be permitted to go on under that new sheriff. It was a good PR move on his part.
PR?
"It was a good PR move on his part."
I think Rachel's original post was to the effect that "PR" shouldn't enter into the sheriff's thinking on what an appropriate disciplinary response should be, in this or any disciplinary matter.
I agree with her on that point, and I agree with her that the discipline metted here is too severe for the offense. To me, it's a question of degree.
The shadowy areas of employee theft
My impression during my work years was that everyone did some kind of minor filtching and some major filching too. Workers took home blocks of copy paper, pens, rulers, pencil sharpeners, and whatever else wasn't nailed down. This was rampant both in retail (management and staff) and in academia too (but less so).
Many non-profits I have worked with have had someone somewhere who worked in an office where they often made copies of announcements, brochures, and newsletters, sometimes in the hundreds of copies.
This was perhaps with permission of the boss, but if the owner didn't know about this, it was still a form of condoned petty theft wasn't it? I think it didn't matter because these corporations had budgets that were over-inflated anyway.
Many schools and offices now have tracking systems on copiers, so you have to log in and describe exactly what your copies were for.
When everything is inflated from the top down and the corporate higher ups are being paid enormous salaries and scoffing up percs beyond everyone's imagination, how is a lowly little worker supposed to feel guilty over a few pens or even a little gas?
As a nation our ethics have collapsed so badly that having a conscience about these sort of things seems to be a thing of the past. Most don't get caught because no one is minding the store. When a big scandal happens, audits are suddenly demanded, and everyone jumps on whoever they can. The general rule of thumb seems to be, take whatever little things you need but be moderate, and please don't get caught. If you do you're on your own.
Ok, the pen example may not
Ok, the pen example may not have been so good. But what about using the company copier to make a few personal copies? That's deliberate, it's "stealing," and I doubt it's rare.
My point here is saying that "stealing is stealing" is just a wee bit too simplistic.
Stealing a few copies just isn't as bad as stealing $10 worth of gas, which isn't the same as stealing a substantial amount of $$ by using a company credit card to pay for big ticket personal items. (As an aside, I once knew of a person who used a company credit card to pay for hotel rooms where he was having an affair with another employee - on company time no less. He was fired - and absolutely deserved it.)
Once again I'll say that the punishment should fit the crime. I'm unsure what the appropriate punishment is here, but I absolutely agree with Tamara that good PR for the sheriff should have nothing to do with it.
Cheaper still...
(As an aside, I once knew of a person who used a company credit card to pay for hotel rooms where he was having an affair with another employee - on company time no less. He was fired - and absolutely deserved it.)
Was this at TVA? Years ago, I worked for the Metropolitan Water District (of Southern CA), where these sorts of trysts weren't altogether unknown. I understand folks just put in a P.O. for a bigger desk.
Incidental photo copies may be OK
At my company the ethics policy indicates that incidental photo copies for personal use are OK if the practice is approved by local management. Suppose you need to mail a rebate offer and need a copy of your receipt and a copy of your completed rebate form. Two copies made. Incidental use. But photocopying the novel you are writting to send out for review by publishers, that is not "incidental," nor is an extra $10 of gas in a container.
How did this go from wanting
How did this go from wanting to know the whole story to "You damn liberals . . ." so quickly?
Rachel, I think your example
Rachel, I think your example only applies if you take a briefcase to work for the purpose of taking home company pens and paper.
J.J.'s running a tight ship.
J.J.'s running a tight ship. Used to be, all stealing $10 worth of gas got you was 10 minutes in the "Be Sweet" chair.
Not to be too argumentative on the point...
Especially on my first day out...
But, remember this deputy might well be the deputy that arrests your kid for shoplifting $1.30 in chewing gum. Is it not still considered stealing when it is $10 or less? Was he thinking it was okay, because he was only stealing "a little"?
If any employee should be held to a higher standard on matters of crime (white-collar, as in pens, or otherwise), it should be deputies. I mean, there's just a certain amount of irony in this thing.
Strealing is Stealing
A few years back Krogers charged a couple with shop lifting because they ate a few of the grapes they intended to buy... but when the couple went to pay how is Krogers supposed to weigh the grapes and charge them for the grapes...
Rachel, in your world Krogers should offered them something to drink free to wash down the grapes...
I will say it again... stealing is stealing...
Relativity
Joe, Rachel didn't suggest that no punishment was in order (and neither did I), only that the punishment should fit the crime.
In a courtroom setting, judges routinely apply this rationale to tailor the fines and jail terms of offenders of all sorts. WRT theft, the law distinguishes between petty theft and grand larceny, for instance, imposing varying consequences for each.
In an employment setting, we usually see some established guideline of sequential oral, then written warnings and/or paid, then unpaid leaves used to discipline employees for various offenses (NOT that I'm suggesting stealing should result in just an oral warning--that's more serious).
Anyway, I think Rachel's observation (and certainly my own) is that in this instance, the disciplinarian seemed to act abruptly and in a heavy-handed manner, and he appeared possibly motivated by a concern for "good PR," given concurrent goings on in the mayor's office.
Tamara - word. Thanks for
Tamara - word. Thanks for writing that post so I didn't have to.
There is an old saying: It's
There is an old saying: It's hard to be fair after you've been generous. Perhaps the new sheriff is merely trying to set the tone relatively early.
It's hard for me to think that the deputy just now got caught doing this. As another poster mentioned, how do we know it hasn't happened before? I don't necessarily think speeding a few miles over the limit is bad either, but I do raise my eyebrows when a cruiser blows by me on the interstate without light or siren.
I also agree that the deputies and police force need to be held to a higher standard.
There are all sorts of
There are all sorts of legitimate uses a deputy or his superiors might have for a container of gasoline. Weed whacking at the horse farm, powering one of those roadside speed meters, mowing the lawn at one of Hutchison's rental properties, starting the charcoal for a hot-dog feast for a thousand orphans, burning stuff. How do we know this guy didn't use the gas for job-related duties?
it coulda been gas for one
it coulda been gas for one of those black helicopters
mowing the lawn at one of
mowing the lawn at one of Hutchison's rental properties
And Rikki's hits keep on coming. Hahaha.
what county charge card?
The tv news story last night said the officer drove off without paying for the gas, and the link to the kns story makes no mention of a county charge card.
CBT - Do you have inside info regarding the charge card?
I don't know if my info is
I don't know if my info is current, but I believe the Sheriff's Office has a contract with Pilot and buys all it's gas there (Pilot has the most stations in Knox County so officers have an easy time getting fuel, prices are generally as cheap or cheaper (maybe they get a fleet discount?), bookkeeping is easy with one bill and there are no credit cards floating around out there). I believe the offending officer was observed at a Pilot stealing in the only way you can with this program, literally pumping gas into some other container.
I also believe the city used to have a similar agreement with Pilot, but Mayor Haslam dropped it when he was elected to avoid any appearance of impropriety. The West Wing of the 6th Floor clearly operates different than the East Wing. I don't know where the City gets it's gas now.
Is there some Pilot-specific fleet card in use?
Chad, do you suppose, then, that the "card" Jeanne heard mentioned is a Pilot fleet purchase card, over and above the "p-cards" recently in the news?
Or do county employees maybe lack any specific Pilot fleet card, and just know to use their "p-cards" at Pilot?
The Sheriff and Gas
And why is the county buying gas from Pilot? Did Pilot just happen to be the best bidder on a county RFP for fuel service? Of course not, this is Knox County. Jim Haslam was chairman of the Public Building Authority. He and Hutchison were at odds with each other. Hutchison, through Leo Cooper, chairman of county commission at the time, got the votes to sack Haslam as PBA chair. Come election time, Hutchison needed to make amends. Along comes a sheriff's dept. contract for fuel services with none other than Jim Haslam's very own company. What a coincidence. Never mind that the county had its own fleet fuel station that up to that time had fueled all county vehicles, including the KCSD. But surely it's cheaper to buy from Pilot than to buy wholesale, right?
One other interesting sidelight from that transaction- after Leo Cooper had Haslam removed from the PBA Board, remember who beat this same Leo Cooper at the polls to become a member of Commission? Scooby Doo Moore. Who was one of Scooby's biggest behind-the-scenes supporters? Haslam. So the Sheriff uses Cooper to dethrone Haslam, who helps Scooby dethrone Cooper, and then Scooby brings down the whole danged government through juvenile ineptitude. The price of gasoline is even higher than we thought.
Never mind that the county
Never mind that the county had its own fleet fuel station that up to that time had fueled all county vehicles, including the KCSD. But surely it's cheaper to buy from Pilot than to buy wholesale, right?
It's one thing for a building inspector to fill up the Impala once a week but what if a Sheriff's patrol car needs gas and he/she's out at Watt Road or in Corryton? Having the ability to get gas at multiple locations makes sense. And, with Pilot's ability to spot price gas and buy it by the millions (?) of gallons, it might be cheaper. Do you know the terms of the agreement (assuming one exists) between Pilot and the KCSO?
Your political conspiracy theory might make sense, but what of Chairman Moore's prior employment with the KCSO and supposed close ties to Tim Hutchison. Were Haslam and Hutchison on the same side against Cooper?
Conspiracy theories abound. The simple fact is Sheriff's deputies need to be able to buy gas without driving back downtown. Pilot has the most stations in Knox County. Pilot is convenient and can buy gas cheap.
rachel?
did Rachel just go all urban? cue Vanilla Ice.
head hurts...must make stop.
It's not just the $10 in gas
What part of riding around in a sheriff's cruiser with a container of flammable liquid sounded like a good idea?
The disregard for safety should also be considered.
Sheriff and Gas II
Deputies don't have to make a special trip downtown- they're downtown each shift. And they're typically not using more than a full tank each shift. Driving from Corryton to the closest Pilot station (Halls- 7 miles) can't be as cost-effective as driving from the CC Bldg to Baxter Ave (2 miles- 5 minutes).
As to the Sheriff not supporting Moore- if you'll recall, Scooby and the Sheriff did not get along for quite a while. They did not get along (usually) prior to Scott leaving the dept. up to the time of the commission election. The two didn't rekindle their relationship until near the end of that election.
Pilot pays taxes for its gas, the county didn't. I can't imagine Pilot is selling the gas without an added profit. Hard to see how adding a middleman and passed-on taxes results in savings. A good cost:benefit analysis of this issue by county finance could possibly be good ammo for Ragsdale- who desperately needs it at the moment- but of course he can't do that given that the deal involves Haslam, can he?