Pete's like a child who’s taken a particularly colorful dump and insists on showing it to company.

It's shame that those who don't get the KNS at home can't enjoy this doozy just yet.

His attack on free, universal education as a plank in the Communist Manifesto fails to mention that the same plank calls for the abolition of child labor in factories. I look forward to Pete’s next column about how those great hand-knotted Persian rugs would be so much cheaper if American kids were put to work making them, what with their little nimble fingers and all.

But my favorite part is this bizarre parable about the first day of school:

The child comes to school toting tools -- the pencils, notebooks, etc. -- purchased with his parents, carefully organized and packed with personal pride before bed the night before. Then the teacher collects all those tools, puts them all together to be used by everyone. It wouldn’t be fair to have someone have more or nicer tools than someone else. Community property, not private.

Is this how it’s done in local schools? Where I grew up, you had your own pencils, crayons and notebooks. Of course, teachers would find supplies for a kid whose family couldn’t provide them. I imagine that still happens today.

The schools also feed the kids who wouldn’t get a decent breakfast and lunch otherwise. I know at least one Knoxville school where they send some kids home on Friday with a few easy-to-prepare meals in a backpack, so they’ll have something to eat over the weekend.

I suppose Pete thinks it’s dreadful that kids whose parents can’t or won’t buy them food and school supplies and a basic education get those things anyway when that money could be used for tax breaks for retired international business and education consultants. What a bunch of Commies.

Nelle: Of course, teachers would find supplies for a kid whose family couldn’t provide them.

A teacher I know buys them. Out of her own pocket.

Nelle: I know at least one Knoxville school where they send some kids home on Friday with a few easy-to-prepare meals in a backpack, so they’ll have something to eat over the weekend.

He probably thinks those kids should be left to starve so as to tidy up the gene pool.

Metulj: Our kids go to a for-profit (they exist) private school and all of the notebooks, pencils, textbooks and etc are held as common property based on a fee paid at the beginning of the year ($300). So there goes that one.

We already knew you were a free market Communist. With Eastern European ties, no less.

I believe that the schools do ask that parents contribute to communal supplies -- tissues for runny noses and hand sanitizer and such. But the ones who can buy their own, and the teacher frequently buys the other kids stuff out of her pocket.

I tried to read this diatribe, but since I save that section of the paper for the last thing, I'm frequently worn out with nonsense at that point.

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

Pete missed these horrifying planks in the Commie Manifesto:

Publicly funded roads criss-crossing the whole nation. Why, there are even "interstate" highways in Hawaii, which is connected to NO OTHER STATE!

Government subsidies to wealthy agribusinesses in solidly Republican farm states!

Federally funded and administered GOVERNMENT-CREATED LAKES, right here in heavily Republican East Tennessee!

All of this godless communism has to stop RIGHT NOW! Join me in writing our Republican Tennessee senators and congressmen to do away with interstate highways, farm subsidies, and TVA lakes now! Let's take the heavy hand of government out of bass fishing!

I don't know that I'm for abandoning the present public education system, but surely no one disagrees that it can and needs to be improved. And, more money isn't the answer. We spend close to, what, $6,000 per child in Knox County? Tuition at private schools isn't much more and can be less, particularly in lower grades. I believe Catholic High is about $7,000 per student (and that's for non-Catholics without subsidy from the local diocese). I have seen (but don't have current information) tuition at some elementary grade schools closer to $4,000. Berea Christian comes to mind.

Toby points out that his children attend private school. His children are fortunate that he and his wife can afford to pay their taxes (which includes money for schools) and private school tuition. Why not allow poor people the same opportunity with a choice of where to send their children (by giving them power over their education tax dollars)? Isn't forcing a parent to send their children to a failing school in an environment where it is difficult to learn based only on where they can afford to live one of the most discriminatory acts of government?

Yes, I know the answer from the school administration is that we need to improve the school in that neighborhood. But, how? Schools find it almost impossible to fire tenured teachers. More money? Maybe that helps some, but is that really the problem? Many of these schools have been moving downhill for years, despite more money being spent. It's been a steady decline.

Mike Cohen has rightly pointed out in threads on this topic (from long ago) that public schools cannot turn away children, notably those with special needs. Surely that issue can be solved in some positive manner.

It's not fault of all the teachers. It's not the fault of all the administration. But, it is the fault of some teachers and some administrators. School systems and teachers' unions appear to be very resistant to change. I don't know how you break through that logjam. But, limited vouchers may prove that schools can operate more efficiently and provide higher quality education. If not, we can say we tried. If so, maybe such a program could be expanded.

Knox County spends about $7250 per student, slightly less than the state average.

Tuition to a private school, especially one asociated with a religion, is not the same as expenditure per student. We need to break out capital and facilities expenditure separately for operating expenses to get a valid comparison. (I'm relying on memory here, but I was told that the cost at Catholic was about $12 grand a year. )

The Communist Manifesto thing was sort of absurd. I was particularly offended by the Stevensonian Manifesto.

As I understand it, the dude is an old guy from Blount County. OK, he's a "retired international business and education consultant, researcher, writer, speaker, manager, and professor" (whatever that is) who lives in Louisville.

Yet he declares that the Knox County schools that teach MY kid should be run by "leaders" who need not have worked in a school before, have any certification, or prior teaching experience.

Thank you very much.

I'd like to require, in the name of freedom, that HIS family receive health care from doctors offices and hospitals run by leaders who need not have worked in a medical facility before, have any certification, or have any prior medical experience.

Imagine the advances that such a system could make in open heart or brain surgery by fresh outside-the-box thinking and new ideas !

So if we go to a voucher system, do folks like me who don't have kids in school get vouchers to make payments on a boat or something?

The issue with the article was fixed Sunday night. I'm sorry it had a template error earlier. The link is in Randy's original post.

Thanks, Jack!

(I think the author has a template error, too.)

Well, I don't know Randy. I don't have kids either. But, I am still concerned about education. My tax dollars are still being taken and spent on education.

Steve, interesting point on capital facilities. But, with the existing facilities we with Knox Co. Schools, aren't we still comparing apples to apples? I have a few friends with children in Catholic schools (and some at CAK and many in public schools also). I think the $7,000 is right. CAK is a bit higher. Webb is much higher (like double Catholic), but it's at the far end of the spectrum. How about Grace Baptist, First Baptist Concord?

Surely there's a way to break out complete numbers for comparison.

CBT

with the existing facilities we with Knox Co. Schools, aren't we still comparing apples to apples?

I don't know that much about Knox county capitalization but I have been told that Catholic's extremely nice facilities that were not paid for out of tuition money but rather donations and other funds.

You may be in a position to find out more about that.

I do know that private schools do not, on average, produce a higher performing student than public schools when comparing students of like ability. Private schools also tend to have lower teacher certifications and pay less than public schools.

I keep hearing that myth about tenured teachers being fireproof, and that isn't at all true. This is a complicated issue, however, and since teacher pay is so low, I personally feel that unquualified teachers are kept on as much because they are so hard to replace as anything else.

What private schools are good at is segregation and indoctrination that is not permitted (thankfully) in a public school.

Just checked the Webb School website. Upper school tuition is just under $14,000 for the year plus books. I teach at a community college -- writing, study skills -- those books are right at $100 each. I'm told that science and math books can easily come in at $300. Don't know what a good Latin book goes for these days......

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

I've been teaching for 10 years now. I've taught at three different colleges in Arkansas, at a private (Episcopalian) school in Arkansas and at a community college here. I tend to agree with Steve's statement that students will do what they will wherever they end up in school.

That being said, I currently teach in developmental studies -- for students who score below 19 on the ACT -- at an area community college. If you look at the state report card for schools, I can almost guarantee you that the students in my classes came from those schools. Occasionally, I have had a student from Oak Ridge city schools who just didn't bother to apply him/herself in k-12, they are almost always head and shoulders above the students from the poorer performing schools.

And, I sincerely believe that it starts when the kids are infants and someone reads to them and otherwise interacts with them. Next I think a great deal of it has to do with elementary school. It's not unusual for me to be dealing with sentence level writing problems that a student should have learned in third grade. Either they weren't taught or something interfered with their learning. It very seldom means that they don't have the capability to do it. But many of them believe that's the problem -- their ability. It is amazingly wonderful to go through a semester with some of these kids and have them realize that they have the ability.

Unfortunately, the state has paid repeatedly by the time they get to the community college level.

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

When you think Dr. Pete couldn't get any worse he does. Wonder what his next topic will be?

I particularly liked the line in his health care column that was something to the effect of "not everyone can drive a luxury car, some have to drive clunkers." He was trying to make an analogy to doctor choice. Would Dr. Pete want to go to a clunker doctor?

I think, however, that Elizabeth Peterson's column was right on target. Loudon County banned giving prizes or privileges for selling several years ago. My mother may have had a hand in that, she tore into my middle school principal for the practice.

It's a bit unfair to point to Webb at $14,000, which is by far the most expensive private school, not only in Knoxville, but likely one of the most expensive in Tennessee. There are good private schools who charge much less. I used to have some numbers, but I think there are 40+ private schools in the Knoxville area. Many you don't hear about.

Pam, thanks for the insight. It seems like some of what you mention has to do with parental involvement. Without that, students will be challenged in public or private schools.

None of this discussion should be interpreted to say that Knox County schools are doing a bad job, overall at least. It's all about opportunities to do better.

None of this discussion should be interpreted to say that Knox County schools are doing a bad job, overall at least. It's all about opportunities to do better.

I have noticed that in the areas where there are few private schools, the public schools seem to be much better. Crossville for instance, has beautiful facilities. I believe that the ability to run off to a private school allows some of us to ingnore problems that need fixing. In the areas where that choice is more difficult, we seem to be willing to work together on public school problems.

I think a major problem for public schools is the inability to completely provide for those students who can excell, and that may exacerbate the problem of private schools.

WhitesCreek

very bright kids come out of South-Doyle

The Bubba and I thank you, thank you very much.

I agree, West has been a "best kept secrect" for many years. Thirty years ago someone very dear to me transferred to West from Doyle (South-Doyle) to escape the "farm kids", actually true rednecks. In fact, I know at least three people who transferred to West back then who just didn't "fit" the mold at Doyle. Everyone at West, students and faculty, are (and were) apparently more open to different cultures.

I went to public school 20 years agao in Virginia and we hid our Catholicism

I, too, raised Catholic, went to a public school, for the majority of my secondary education. I never felt we had to hide our Catholicism. The majority of my fellow students probably just didn't know what a Catholic was. One of my brother's and I attended a private Catholic grade school in Knoxville years ago. I can tell you we were both very glad to escape the horror. I'm sure (or certainly hope) the Catholic grade schools are much better now.

It's not fault of all the teachers. It's not the fault of all the administration. But, it is the fault of some teachers and some administrators.

I'm sure you mean to include parents in the equation.

I will state I am not fond of the idea of vouchers. I think we should do whatever we can to help public schools succeed. There are many reasons (e.g. diversity, curriculum, sports, religion, etc.) a parent may want to send a child to a private school and that's great if they are able to do so. Let's just not take away from the public school system that guarantees an education for all. Let's make the public school system better.

Let's just not take away from the public school system that guarantees an education for all. Let's make the public school system better.

Many who favor vouchers will tell you they will make public schools better by creating accountability and choices.

There are some good public schools in Knox County. Mostly, these are found in affluent areas where there is a much higher degree of parental involvement. West got better because of Donna Wright and also because it's zone moved into more affluent areas over the past 15 or so years. Before that it was average at best.

until the money is funneled through a voucher system.

Andy, I think that would be the 'same' amount of money (and with some charter schools less). It's the 'more' which some believe doesn't solve the problem. It's the 'more' which historically hasn't produced better outcomes.

Nice response Toby. Peer review on school choice research is like throwing chum to the sharks. Teachers and teachers unions consistently oppose school choice efforts, the same as labor unions oppose 'right to work' laws (despite their success). So-called peers are more than happy to critique choice efforts to protect the the education monolopy.

Most school choice efforts are in the early stages. There are positive indications and results. But, it takes time to examine groups of student as they progress. As time passes and more choice programs (be they vouchers, charter schools or some other form) have time to demonstrate success (or lack of success), there will be valid comparisons, which can be 'peer reviewed'. Some food for thought here (link...) and here (link...)

Time will tell. Like all huge monolopies, education will be slow and resistant to change.

Many who favor vouchers will tell you...

just about anything they can come up with to justify a position for which no valid study supports.

Another way to say that is that "Many who favor vouchers" have their own self interest in mind and will say just about anything, including the aforementioned irrational statement. It's not like statements like that will fool us... but I keep wondering why folks want to keep fooling themselves?

Steve, read the links I inserted. I can provide other studies and information. There's a better way to provide public education. If not for teacher's unions and the resulting political propaganda, I believe a majority of Democrats would embrace school choice programs.

Please. The teacher's unions have nothing on the propagandists promoting the school privatization agenda, which is essentially what a voucher system is.

You already have a "choice," Chad. Choose to pay for your children's private education. Or don't.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

Yes, but I would also be paying for public education in addition ot private school. Why would it be so terrible for parents to have some say-so in directing those tax dollars for their own children's education? I would also point out that my children would have a private school choice because my wife earn a good living. But, what about the child of poor parents. They don't have the same "choice" as me. I think it would be good to give those children the same opportunities.

As for teacher's unions v. schoo choice 'propaganda', check the lobbyist and political contributions. The former have been at this game much longer and are one of, if not the most, influential labor unions.

If not for teacher's unions and the resulting political propaganda, I believe a majority of Democrats would embrace school choice programs.

Compaining about propaganda and linking to the CATO Institute, I mean.

There's a fair amount of selfserving statement on both sides but CATO is notorious for arguing their position as opposed to asking themselves what that position should be.

Vouchers will do for education, what HMO's have done for health care...Make profit the driving force and destroy it beyond all usefullness to the average American citizen. You seek simple answers and there just aren't any. it takes work and inclusion, not exclusion, on all fronts.

What about more public school choice? With a large system, such as Knox County's, we could offer greater specialization and choice for families within the public schools. We have 54,000 students and one-size does not fit all. Under No Child Left Behind there is 'choice' but only in a negative way - to escape 'failing' schools. Why not be pro-active and give people affirmative reasons to choose a particular public school?

We could have some Montessori elementary schools - there's clearly a demand for that. Schools could specialize in the arts, engineering, foreign language immersion. Some schools could adopt uniforms, perhaps an alternative calendar. You'd introduce the benefits of choice and competition, and not have some of the downsides of using public funds for private schools. Transportation would be a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

Some people will choose based on a school's proximity, others based on a teaching method or curricular focus, preferred calendar, uniforms, because they are the 3rd generation to attend that school - whatever suits their kids and their family preferences.

Richard Kahlenberg wrote a great book on the topic: 'All Together Now: Creating Middle Class Schools through Public School Choice'. It's a great read.

what about the child of poor parents. They don't have the same "choice" as me. I think it would be good to give those children the same opportunities.

So you're saying that tuition at a private school would be funded even 50% by the monies currently directed towards a public education?

I would be willing to bet that even with a dollar-for-dollar match, you're not creating an opportunity for a poor family.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

The minute that a voucher system is implemented, I'm directing all of my tax dollars out of my "affluent" district and into the most "failed" public school in Metro. I'm serious. I will use my tax dollars as a scholarship for a child who really needs an opportunity, not for little Lilly Whitebread to get a break at a private school where her parents were going to "choose" to send her anyway.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

On the propaganda talking point that Chad brought up: People for the American Way compiled this report on the people and organizations supporting the school privatization movement:

(link...)

Among the names that pop up are John Walton, Dick DeVos, Richard Mellon Scaife, Pete Coors, Paul Weyrich, and Heritage Foundation.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

A well educated society benefits everyone. This argument that not having children should exclude you from paying for public schools just doesn't fly with me. I like that the teenagers in my neighborhood are getting a decent education. It makes the contents of my house less likely to disappear.

My boys are both elementary age and we've had a mixed experience in public school. This is at what most people in the county would consider a top-level elementary school. Mostly good teachers and one really bad teacher. None of them really had the ability to tailor their teaching based on the needs of a particular child. Would vouchers help in this situation? No. How exactly do I shop around with my voucher? Do I get to pick the specific teacher or just the school? If I don't like the teacher can I take my voucher and go elsewhere or am I stuck for the year? Is transportation included?

It's ridiculous to pretend that this is a sensible thing to say. It's ridiculous to just assume that anyone that wants can afford to move to the neighborhood that has the good school.

Who's pretending? THIS HAPPENS TODAY. People move to get their kids into the better schools. Real estate agents aggressively market neighborhoods based on this. Sensible or not, it's a fact. People with families locate in neighborhoods with better rated schools.

Are you pretending that this DOESN'T happen? If so, spare me the lecture.

It's ridiculous to accept that it's somehow okay for certain (white/rich) neighborhoods to get the good schools while certain (poor/mixed ethnicity) neighborhoods must accept that they get the lesser schools.

It's ridiculous to believe that a voucher system won't have the result of making bad schools even worse. Markets rely on inequalities. It's part and parcel of the paradigm of competition.

I'd rather this didn't have to become a race issue, but to some extent it is, and to pretend otherwise is to ignore the truth.

Isn't it, rather, a class issue? And that class in this country closely tracks to race?

But if you want to go there, let's unpack this, rather than these platitudes about whose head is in the sand. Why does an affluent white person deserve a break if they opt out of the public school system? Who's barking the loudest about the issue of choice? What do John Walton, Dick DeVos, Richard Mellon Scaife, Pete Coors, and Paul Weyrich have in common? Who were the plaintiffs in Parents Involved in Community Schools v. Seattle School District, No. 1 and what color was their skin?

Bonus question: How does a voucher system which allows the funding of religious education meet the Lemon standard?

I personally think our public education system is a total sham. I do not trust that system to give my kids what they need, and I refuse to turn my kids over to the state to be taught to pass a test that in no way prepares them to continue their life once they are old enough to leave school.

Wow, does anyone believe that passing tests prepares children for a life outside of school? If that's your expectation out of an education, then I'd offer that maybe the schools are not the problem as far as your kids are concerned.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

I mean no particular offense here, but...

If I live in Norwood because I like the neighborhood and can afford to live there. I also know that Northwest Middle is not a very good school, but Farragut Middle is a really good school. I don't want to and can't afford to move to Farragut. So, I'm left with no option, other than taxes + private school tuition which I can't afford.

If you want to go to a better school? Move into that neighborhood.

Translated: "Let Them Eat Cake".

homeschooling

My niece has homeschooled for years and they live in a "good" school district. I don't think the quality of the school itself made this decision for them. I can't be positive, but I do not think they would elect to send their children to a private school even if they had a voucher to enable them to do so.

How is it you equate homeschooling to vouchers for private schools? Do you get funding for homeschooling your children? If vouchers are made available, will you get voucher money for homeschooling your children?

Another example...

I live in government subsidized housing. I have low skills, make little money and/or live mostly with the assistance of the government. It's not my kids fault (absent the decision to have them in the first place, but that's a different discussion). The schools in the area of my government housing are terrible. I can't move. I don't have a choice. Neither do my kids. Continuing the cycle...

Interesting book. However, I mentioned neither king nor queen. Just a parent or parents, take your pick.

why it's obviously okay that there are bad schools?

This is what I mean by putting words in my mouth. If you're going to go that road, there's nothing to discuss.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

Knox County Schools does not care what school you are closest to or that you moved to a neighborhood because you like the school.

Has anyone experienced open zoning? Did it improve ALL schools in the district?

I am looking for information that shows open zoning can do this. I would like to hear first hand experiences.

I am guessing that you are talking about an option my kids were able to use in another state.

Yes- they were permitted to apply to any other school within the district but would only be enrolled there if they had space available. Our personal limit was on just how far I wanted to drive every to get them to school.

What we really enjoyed was that we were also able to cross districts. By district I mean completely separate districts unlike what we see in TN. I am talking about Maryville going to Knoxville and Knoxville going to Blount County and it was free to us!

We sold a home and bought one in the next district. The kids stayed in the school they knew and loved and the state tax dollars stayed where the kids went to school. In the new home our taxes were based on the district we lived in, not where the kids went to school. That made me pay a much higher property tax to support the school district where we lived. We did so without complaint. We had a choice and we took it. A public choice.

Um.. we had a whole bunch of choices as there were many districts to choose from. Our only real limit was just how far I wanted to drive to get them to school. That expense was ours.

A key difference to that option was as a district resident, we went to the polls to vote on operating budgets. We might be ask to vote an additional levy for a new building, a new roof, a new football field. Whatever. If a strong case was made to the voters and the schools really needed this or that, the voters supported it. If the case was not made then those additional levies failed. They would also fail when folks were mad about one thing or other like the football coach needed to be fired and was not.

I get it. It would not work here and even UpNorth it was inequitable. But the option of being able to transfer to another school was and still is a fine, fine, fine thing.

I do not have first hand experiences of open zoning. I do know that many public school systems offer a lot more choice than Knox County. Often choices are limited, by space constraints or by transportation issues.

Cluster zoning allows a family to choose any school within a defined geographic area. Some systems use choice plans to promote greater economic diversity. Wake County (Raleigh) North Carolina has an approach that's received a lot of positive attention. Manchester, CT has a preferred choice plan designed to reduce concentrations of poverty.

Evidence I've seen shows that these plans help low-income children succeed academically, do not hurt middle-income children and help the community as a whole be better educated, with all the positives that brings.

In my mind public school choice has to go hand in hand with efforts to draw people to schools that they might otherwise choose not to attend. The successful choice plans put attractive features or programs into schools that are perceived as not as good. These features can be academic, like International Baccalaureate, or structural, like alternative calendars, or both.

Interesting posts on zoning and choice.

Indya, as a school board member, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on these issues.

CBT