Tomorrow's County Commission meeting is chock full of controversial or potentially controversial items. Here is a quick rundown so viewers can keep track of them.
Zonings (4pm):
10-D-07-SP and 10-Q-07 RZ: Southwest Sector Plan Amendment, an attempt to switch from Low- to Medium Density on Northeast side of Canton Hollow Road. MPC recommended deny, plus lots of neighborhood opposition. MPC let slide a switch to 5 units per acre Planned Residential; neighbors want scaled back to 3 units.
10-E-07-SP and 10-T-07RZ: South Sector Plan Amendment. Significant neighborhood opposition to Victor Jernigan plan for high-density apartments on south side of W. Gov. John Sevier Hwy, east of Winkle Lane, north of Tipton Station.
( I have questions on a couple other zoning items as well. )
Commission Regular Meeting (5pm or after zonings):
R-07-12-906: Tax Increment Finance package for Willow Creek Shopping Center in Halls, the proposed tax break is 20 years and $4 million.
R-07-12-909: Invoke subpoena powers of commission.
R-07-12-914: Changes regarding Code of Ethics that include defining certain things as not "items of value" and also defining nepotism.
R-07-916: Revisiting the vacancy appointments question.
R-07-917: Resolution urging all citizens to proclaim to every level of government its responsibility to recognize God as foundation of national heritage, the "God Resolution."
R-07-919: Specifying Tyler Harber incidents as part of subpoena powers, and starting investigation.
O-07-12-101 Stormwater Ordinance. Deal with city. Lumpy amendments gone, types of pipe specified in three specific instances. County gets larger size plots exempted from plans. Lingering serious questions whether other provisions are adequate or sufficient regarding EPA and environment.
O-07-12-102 Ordinance Amendments related to Animal Control, dangerous dogs.
O-07-11-103 Recall Amendment
--Mark Harmon
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Mark In case you have not
Mark
In case you have not seen it you might check this online NS article and scroll down to bottom and see the 100+ comments from public.
The Winkle Road zoning issue also gets a mention in the comments.
(link...)
By the way-- Jernigan wants
By the way--
Jernigan wants to build "luxury" apartments for people who work at WalMart?
Well heck he does fine work,
Well heck he does fine work, excellent work. According to Smith, Lambert etc.
Willow Creek
<<< R-07-12-906: Tax Increment Finance package for Willow Creek Shopping Center in Halls, the proposed tax break is 20 years and $4 million. >>>
Mark, this has morphed up to $6 million during the month. Tim Graham said his $4 million request was an estimate. Good luck! -- s.
$6mil TIF
Re: TIF for Graham. Their are several troubling issues here:
1. Moore and Smith do not seem to appreciate disclosure of "possible" conflicts of interest - unless they are pointed out by others.
2. My understanding, or lack of it, is that the TIF zone includes the shaded areas in the KNS map and that any tax increases in the shaded area will be designated to offset the $6mil given to Graham, presumably for improvements to the roads to get to his development - whether this is a desired benefit to the residents, or not.
Somewhere I think I read that residential property taxes were not included in the TIF agreement? I'm not clear on that.
3. Affect on property values? Zoned to commercial - increases the value; nearby residential probably decreases in value? Unless the "value" is being cashed out, increased values would only increase taxes in the meantime - taxes never seem to go down.
4. In light of all the controversy surrounding previous IDB projects (Midway, Farmer's Market/Target) and Graham's South Knoxville project, I just see a lot of red flags.
further
Upon reading the TIF policy, it looks to me like only 60% of the incremental tax revenue (property taxes) in the TIF Plan Area (including residential properties) will be allocated to offset the $6mil provided to Graham. This applies for a max of 15 years (IDB is recommending 20 in this case).
And the economic impact & public review are only done after CC approves the resolution for IDB to award and administer the TIF.
R-07-917: Resolution urging
R-07-917: Resolution urging all citizens to proclaim to every level of government its responsibility to recognize God as foundation of national heritage, the "God Resolution."
I'm speechless. I'll just refer back to the previous post re: "Jesus at the County Commission meeting..."
Watching the meeting now.
Watching the meeting now. Frankly I didn't follow Lumpy Lambert's logic after the contrived give and take with the african-american gentleman. Looks pretty suspicious.
If the South-Doyle
If the South-Doyle homeowners didn't agree for postponement why would they not show up just because Jernigan wanted them to. Smith sounds like he just talked to one side of the argument. Jernigan and his folks.
Lambert just does not represent the general public in any way it seems. Arguably the 4th district seems better represented than his district.
I suspect Moore's 'pass' on postponement was attempt to not tick off Jernigan, etc. too much.
When Jernigan said 'traffic signal' I had to groan out loud.
I doubt typical employees of Home Depot and Super Wal-Mart will be able to afford 'luxury' anything in way of housing. Jernigan himself said they bought a home. I doubt his 250 apartments is that for which they are looking to live in.
Jernigan is really reaching I think with the traffic neutral argument. He did not think he was going to have to argue for it today so having to do some quick double-talk.
Good argument on the medium sized development existing before the sector plan (since 1970s) and therefore should be ignored regarding this change to sector plan.
The homeowners seem to be giving Jernigan a thrashing based on logics and facts.
John Sevier is a Scenic Highway. That does not seem to have much importance to some folks.
Bob Dykes and the woman who spoke for South-Doyle folks have done their homework.
Hammond surprised me opposing change in sector plan. Pleasingly so.
I don't know what's up with Smith. Who cares what Jernigan has done in the past. That does not have anything to do with what they are arguing about. Listening to Lambert is basically a waste of time.
I think it's "perfect" in Jernigan's view because it's what he owns and wants to develop. If he owned somewhere else, that would become 'perfect.'
I dont think Jernigan's small sampling of phone cals about where folks live is enought o base his "1000 people driving 12 miles or more" to work. So what if they are? Maybe they want to live in a nicer less congested area. I know people that have driven 30+ miles to work for 30 years. Because they like being out away from development in their homes. If I can I will not be anywhere near something like the Wal-Mart, Lowe's etc.
I don't have much trust in the MPC folks when they talk.
Jernigan said South Knoxville does not have a great neighborhoods. He doesn't know what he is talking about.
Looks like SD Homeowners win.
What's up with Larry
What's up with Larry Smith?
Wellllll,
First thing that comes to mind is the full-page ad denouncing R. LArry's opponent (James McMillan) that Victor Jernigan bought just before the last county elections.
Second thing probably shows up on R. Larry's financial disclosures. Or maybe not.
As an MPC commissioner, Smith was a development whore. No reason to expect him to be any different as a commissioner. The people who elected him also elected Scoobie.
Smith is going to need a lot
Smith is going to need a lot more than a full-page ad if many folks saw what I saw on TV today.
Regarding the first agenda item the logic behind more than 3 houses per acre completely escaped me.
They could have made plenty of money at 3 per acre. I think the older gentleman that owned the farm may have been manipulated.
There did not seem to be any specific logic then just suddenly the 'things change' argument from Lambert?
That was pretty weak.
The Halls/Graham thing should be interesting. Hopefully folks from that area will show up or at least watch on tube.
The Neighbors won!
I am delighted and amazed that the neighborhood won this round. But I bet it had much to do with their good-ole-boy Pinkston being against it and that is what they are supposed to do, vote the way the district rep votes.
Every time Lumpy talks I find myself shouting, "make him stop!". He interrupts everyone from fellow commissioners to those that have the mike and are speaking to them. He offers trivial comments that mean nothing but just another chance to speak.
I heard from someone at the meeting that the wi-fi server may be down or turned off so there cannot be any live blogging. Wonder if that was by design or just because we are now in the "after hours" mode.
My guess(es) as to why the
My guess(es) as to why the neighbors won:
Strong support for the neighborhood from Pinkston. That makes a big difference.
Ballard and Scoobie, who would probably have voted for the developer under normal circumstances, are running for countywide office.
Hammond's running for something -- I just don't know what.
Leuthold? Not sure about that one.
I concur with your analysis.
I concur with your analysis. And I too wonder what Hammond is running for - County Mayor?
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
Umm, did anyone else wonder
Umm, did anyone else wonder what the real reason was for asking for the postponment until Feb.? Could it be that there will be a full Commission by the Feb. meeting and Jarnigan thought he had a better chance with them?
And Scoobie needs to cut Lumpy off when he argues with speakers like he does. That's just bad manners, and probably a violation of Commission rules.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
The man in the orange shirt
The man in the orange shirt (Mr. Brown) suggested the same basis (Jernigan maybe better odds).
Jernigan
My guess is that when Jernigan noticed how many neighbors were present and how prepared they were, he determined it would be best to wait to take the steam out of them.
And I agree that he could see he may not have had everyone bought and paid for on this commission.
My first viewing of Jernigan
My first viewing of Jernigan in action. South Knoxville would be a better place without him is my first impression.
He's also going after a TIF
Jernigan's also going after a TIF on his Washington Pike development (which the city is paying him $800,000 for annexing).
The whole TIF thing has
The whole TIF thing has gotten out of hand. Who/what facilitates reigning it in?
So what is the vibe in Halls
So what is the vibe in Halls with regards to Moore and Smith? Who are good folks running out there?
More clothes
That sure would pay for some more spiffy suits for Mr. Jernigan, maybe even a few more hats. I noticed he was just wearing a navy suit tonight. Maybe his winter wardrobe is not as colorful as the summer one.
Zoning then Commission Meeting
So we are just now finishing up the zoning meeting that started at 4 pm. The regular meeting was to start 2 hours ago! This is going to be a long night, I bet it goes past 10 pm, especially with the controversial nature of many of the agenda items.
Rachel- I think you're right
Rachel- I think you're right on with the proposed (and failed) postponement. You would be adding a lot of pro-development votes, and the vote tonight would have likely gone the other way, IMHO.
JBR- good point on Home Depot employees not being able to swing $1800/month apartments. I was thinking the same thing (disconnect!)
It's good to see the homeowners win once in a while.
-----------------------------------------
Fighting for Reform and Representation, Fourth District
Steve Drevik, Commission Seat 4-B
(link...)
Blight
The current speaker (Mr. McMillan?) just said the magic word: "blight."
Tax increment financing is intended to spur the redevelopment of blighted areas, not for greenfield development.
TIF is supposed to be used only to spur development that would not occur "but for" the TIF.
Greenfield development is a blatant misuse of tax increment financing.
Sales tax BS
Commissioner Ballard is leading Mr. Graham in some very friendly questioning now, and they keep talking about sales tax to be "generated" by Willow Creek.
I wonder whether these projections factor in how much shopping would shift from other stores to these.
Doubt it.
I call BS.
sales tax
Right, Nelle. A resident just pointed out that the new box stores would cannibalize sales from other stores.
The hapless commission doesn't have a clue what they are supposed to do here and Tank is a worse chairman than Scoobie - God help us - Oh, that's yet to come. :)
Halls guy
Yeah, that last "ordinary resident" from Halls was great.
He had me at slamming Lumpy.
Do you get the impression that
this commission is a big lump of putty? Mike Edwards is trying to tell the CC that they are basically requesting that IDB consider and evaluate a TIF to accomplish some specific objective. They have no objective except to respond to Graham. They are putty in his hands.
I actually read the TIF document and this whole process should be initiated by CC and end with IDB...sheezz
If I were putty, I'd be offended
BTW, can you share a link to the TIF document?
I don't know how to paste the pdf...
But from the KNS article, there is a pdf file that explains the IDB Policy.
(link...)
Industrial Development Board policy on tax increment financing
I am watching Smith throw
I am watching Smith throw Graham some softballs. Give me a break. Just watching Smith makes me dislike the guy.
Three redlights? Redlights are thrown around way to easily.
Not just 3 red lights
There's a whole half-mile of greenway too!
Progressive greenway, as Mr. Graham said.
Thank goodness. I hate those retrograde greenways.
Geez, who had the idea that
Geez, who had the idea that Tank Strickland could serve as co-chair? He ran (or rather didn't run) a lousy meeting.
And not taking a roll call vote on the thing was unconscionable. Does anybody know who voted how?
BTW (and Bill Lyons can correct me if I'm wrong), the City did develop a policy sometime back that it uses in evaluating whether or not to recommend a TIF. Sounds like the County needs to do the same.
BTW, I'm not from Halls but I spent a lot of time on Beaver Creek and its tribs a few years back. I'm very familiar with this site, and there was a lot of B.S. being slung about it tonight.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
Isn't Tank the Vice-Chair?
And you're right about the weasel voice vote - they should have had discussion following voting for the amended motion AND a roll call vote...
Yeah, vice-chair. Sorry, my
Yeah, vice-chair. Sorry, my typing fingers got ahead of my brain. Anyway, he sure has no clue how to run a meeting.
How much longer till the GOD resolution? And will anybody on Commission still be awake to debate it?
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
The God Resolution follows the ethics discussion!
Doesn't that seem backwards...
Debate the God resolution?
Which commissioners do you think will vote against this resolution, other than Mark Harmon? None of the others have the guts. There may be some in the audience that will speak to it. I imagine Lumpy will try to crucify Mark Harmon for voting against it (pun intended).
Debate was probably the wrong word
I hold out the faint hope that either Hammond or Leuthold will point out that religion isn't Commission's buisness. It's a faint hope, however.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
It's ironic that someone
It's ironic that someone with Lambert's and some of the others behavior and odd view of ethics are introducing the God resolution while the guys that may vote against it, Harmon and maybe Norman, probably come the closest to 'Christian' behavior with regards to ethics, etc.
It's ironic that someone
Irony, or hypocrisy?
They're voting on 907 now
God's at 917.
I hope they don't make Her wait too much longer ...
Votes
On the Willow Creek TIF, I believe M. Harmon and Leuthold were the 2 voting against, the other 8 in favor.
There was talk of Scoobie not voting.
Tony Norman voted for the
Tony Norman voted for the TIF? That is disappointing.
OK.... On to audio and video
OK.... On to audio and video streaming...
Wonder if this takes Knology off the hook for showing the meetings?
Hammond - "people that don't have cable can still watch the meeting" - that made me giggle.... It sure is getting late...
our patience has been rewarded
will Dwight and Scoobie come to blows? pillow fight? we're all getting sleepy.
I second the sleepy
... and move that Commission starts meeting twice a month to avoid these monster agendas.
I do appreciate the small burst of fireworks, tho :)
Ridiculous
Scoobie is a terrible chair. He has no idea how to run a meeting. Here we go again with the battle with the mayor's office. This discussion will go nowhere tonight yet each side has to fight this out.
Yeah, this discussion is a joke
It's not good argumentation to keep saying the same thing over and over again.
I can't believe I'm saying this,,,
But he's more effective than Tank.
Wait for it...
Are we about to get to the parking garage and Chesapeake's?????
What if?
Can you imagine how long this meeting would go if there were a full commission of 19? And each one would feel a need to pontificate about nothing.
Did Lumpy or Harmon win?
I was out to Dinner, Can someone tell me who won the God debate?
God lost.
God lost.
you crack me up!
The Shopper is the only reason I still get the paper - well, and Sudoku.
they've drifted
still hashing out the travel allowance. Is that on the agenda? No, but Pinkston couldn't stay on topic and challenged Dwight who brought up overtime in the Sheriff's dept - it is pretty amazing that some of these people have a life.
I must say that I'm
I must say that I'm impressed that after 7 hours they still have the energy left to bash one another.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
Bears 13, Vikings 12 4
Bears 13, Vikings 12
4 Minutes left in the 3rd.
Who would have thought that commission would be on later than Monday Night Football.
Why are they trying to break away
Leave my Commission meeting on and stop breaking in.... I can not wait till we can stream it.
Votes
I was sitting in the room and I think Mark Harmon and Tony Norman were the two votes against Tim Graham's TIF. Leuthold went for it after amending the $4 million to $5 million. -- s.
Midnight
This meeting is going till midnight. Perhaps the actual vote on the God resolution will happen at the bewitching hour. How appropriate. There are some good speakers addressing the problems with this resolution.
Its official... Vikings 20,
Its official...
Vikings 20, Bears 13
Commission outlasted Monday Night Football. God put them over the top.
So there's this guy who
So there's this guy who wants to complain about the county's solid waste recycling facility, and he gets up to talk, Scoobie tells him we're not on that one yet. The guy says 'what are we on?' Scoobie says 'We're on a resolution for God.' So the guy says he's for separation of church and state, and I bet he still thinks the solid waste thingie stinks.
Well, yay for Tank
Well, yay for Tank Strickland! I think that's the most I've ever heard him talk and every word was a good 'un.
And who was the woman audience member who spoke first? Boy, was she giving Commission a history lesson. Good for her (and the other two speakers) for sticking around till midnight to stick up for religious freedom.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
Bean's post
Copying Bean's post from the "scandal" thread because it answers my question above:
Margaret Klein, a lawyer and the widow of the finest historian who ever lived in Knoxville (Dr. Milton Klein), just delivered a brilliant speech -- exhorted them to obey the Golden Rule and support the constitution.
This lady I really want to meet.
maybe he's more articulate than
"Joseph"? who spoke? about the dangerous dogs.... What was that about?
Scoobie "For God"
So, I guess god did win?
Did God win?
Well, if you think he needs Knox County govt meddling in religion, then I guess he did.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
ok, now CTV has turned into a pumpkin
Does this meeting qualify for a Guinness Record?
full days of work...
"Guinness Record"??
What is the big deal? I work 8 hours everyday.... They need to do this more, and get some work for knox county done.
How appropriate that we end
How appropriate that we end the night with a spirited conversation on solid waste...
that POed neighbor of the
that POed neighbor of the recycling center is way cool.
His sizing up of Mike Arms was brilliant.
Jernigan said South
Jernigan said South Knoxville does not have a great neighborhoods. He doesn't know what he is talking about.
It doesn't look like West Knox, which, in my opinion, is a good thing.
Jernigan may have been saved
Jernigan may have been saved from himself. He should know that someone who can pay $1800 a month will just buy a house, perhaps a condo if they don't like yardwork. The corporate relocation market just isn't that strong in South Knox.
I really enjoyed the contrasting accents of the two gentlemen who spoke against Willow Creek. The local man was very knowlegeable about hydrology and ecology, but with his scientific bent it took me a while to figure out that "open boxes" were vacant storefronts and not dangerous culverts. The transplanted northeasterner was more direct about the economics. He was the first to point out that all that sales tax revenue doesn't arise out of nowhere. I wish he'd gone a step further to help Lumpy connect the dots that maybe the reason his uncle's strip mall was struggling was because the shoppers were going to Graham's development up the road.
____________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs
I think the first fellow you
I think the first fellow you mean was Mike McMillan. He's been active in construction runoff/stormwater issues for a long time, and has been bird-dogging TDEC and Knox County for some time now. I would have liked to have seen more follow-up questions as to whether the commercial area could have been designed around the land, more bridges, etc. I kinda hate the way Turkey Creek is laid out in one big giant clump, and you can't really walk safely from one area to another. Being broken up might help visually, and maybe even offer better traffic flow, encourage more walking between stores, etc.
-----------------------------------------
Fighting for Reform and Representation, Fourth District
Steve Drevik, Commission Seat 4-B
(link...)
I think you mean James
I think you mean James McMillan. Mike McMillan is a former County Commissioner who would probably have thought this development was fine and dandy.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
Edwards is stooging for Talbott/HolRob
Again, Edward is up there stooging for his old friend and former employer, Bob Talbott and HolRob, who develop a thing or two around Knox County, but, it their defense, they don't come to the county looking for a handout, they make their money and development work the old fashioned way.
Edwards would be a lot more persuasive if he'd call a spade a spade, Ragsdale is in Graham's pocket and he needs to point out the fact that these developments, traveling on TIFS, are actually projects subsidized by the county's taxpayers, to the eventual detriment of our school system funding and call it what it is.
In our community, it's all in whose making the money as to level of debate which surrounds an issue. When HolRob was selected to develop the old farmer's market site (which Edwards and John Werner, both former HolRob employees voted for) nobody raised a ruckus although they should have screamed blatant conflict of interest all way around.
Well, Talbot and Holrob
Well, Talbot and Holrob don't make all of their money the "old fashioned way." 6/14/07 N/S story:
Under the proposal, the 309,900-square foot tower would include 58 residential condominiums, five town homes and nearly 39,000 square feet of retail and office space, plus a 207-space parking garage. The $56.2 million project is contingent on approval of $8.5 million worth of tax-increment financing over 20 years. Tax-increment financing generally allows additional property tax revenue generated by a project to be used for paying the debt costs of that project.
Members of the Devon Group are Talbott......
Betty- sorry I had to leave
Betty- sorry I had to leave before the end- is that waste/recycling issue the county-sponsored one in Solway? If so, that fellow came to Commission two months ago with the same issue. MH had invited him to offer a proposal, but MH said he never heard back from him. I have some more details on that case.
-----------------------------------------
Fighting for Reform and Representation, Fourth District
Steve Drevik, Commission Seat 4-B
(link...)
The God Resolution
Well now, I ain’t no English major, but I’m having a slight problem with the resolution as quoted by WBIR; in particular the tense of the verb “urge.”
Also:
Does it include those American citizens who refer to god, presumably the same god, in terms of a great spirit? Is “national heritage” capitalized to exclude those citizens?
Now that the commissioners have acknowledged God as the foundation of our national heritage, can two or more commissioners who hold similar beliefs get together to pray about pending county business?
No, no
No. Tony Norman did NOT vote for the TIF. The no votes were Norman and Mark Harmon.
Craig Leuthold interrogated Graham like Perry Mason, then amended his $4 million request to $5 million and acted like he had saved us money. Leuthold voted for the TIF while making threatening sounds about "wait til next time."
His daddy, Craig ain't. -- s.
I liked Norman's line of
I liked Norman's line of questioning thru the evening on various topics.
I would readily accept Norman and Mark Harmon representing the whole county if I thought the load would not be overwhelming.
I thought it was shameful the way the gentleman from Canton Hollow Road seemed to have been manipulated by the developers. That looked coached and contrived. And Lumpy's pre-fab questions and throwing in the, 'we havent met before have we Mr. ...' That whole thing looked 'setup' to me.
Why do you think Scott Davis was so 'sacrificing' about being on PBA? Why did Ragsdale, Smith etc want him on PBA so badly?
Cletus is right, however, Sentinel Tower will never be
That was a TIF which included Talbott, however, it is not a tried and true HolRob project, as it is much akin to the group of "investors" that wanted to purchase the TVA North Tower. Again, that deal never went through, despite best efforts.
The Sentinel Tower will never be built, the numbers don't work, even with the proposed TIF financing (which is just a buzz word for your taxes are going up, your property is going to be reappraised)and the new construction upscale luxury downtown condominium demand is not the same as the demand for lofts, rehabs, etc. which are popular downtown now.