Sun
Jan 21 2007
02:08 pm
By: rocketsquirrel

fascist new urbanists, who find battles between urbanists and suburbanists more compelling than a band of space cadets engaged in battle from the Terran carrier "Tiger Claw" in the war against the Kilrathi, might be interested in this view from across the pond by a MP for Suffolk Coastal.

Apparently urban planning in Britain is being driven more by energy security policy than demonstrations of affluence, which is a good thing.

you'll have to google to appreciate the Tiger Claw reference.

ESTATES GAZETTE
09-06-04

Planning

A flying visit to the United States has left me seriously depressed. Not about the war, although that remains as serious a mess as some of us warned, but about America's ability to plan for her own future. The issue of energy security ought to have alerted the nation to the fact that her present course is utterly unsustainable. Yet, the suburbs around her booming cities continue to expand in a way that is entirely dependent upon the car. There is no real concept of containment. Urban renewal is an also-ran, part of social policy rather than central to the development of the nation. For middle-class America, suburban living in ever greater luxury with ever more space, is the great driver.

Read more after the jump...

I was in Atlanta, one of the two or three fastest growing places in the US. Six-bedroomed, six-bathroomed detached houses are going up many miles from the commercial centre. Families here have three garages, use them and still there are cars outside. No-one old enough to drive can do without a car. This has long been the pattern in the US since robber barons bought up the railroads and tramways to eliminate the automobile's competition. Yet, it has got worse. Here, it is literally impossible to buy a loaf of bread on foot or on bicycle. The extension of the rapid transit system has been vetoed by those who feared that the wrong kind of people might thereby be enabled to come to their ungated ghettos of affluence and well-being. Fortress America has another meaning here.

The dependence upon oil is total. The election has been centering on which of the candidates can more credibly claim to influence the producers to cut the price of crude. Few seem to be concentrating on the real issue of supply. The world is running out of oil and is consuming it at an unprecedented rate. By 2020, China will be importing 10 million barrels a day. That's more than the US does now. By then, the issue will not just be price but availability.

All this just emphasises the importance for Britain to stick to its planning guns. Mr Brown could so easily be tempted by the long-time Treasury view that there is plenty of green field land available for housing. His impatience with the planning system is manifest and his promotion of Kate Barker's Report as a counterpoint to John Prescott's plans is ominous. Yet, there is no way in which we can make five million new homes sustainable except by sticking rigidly to the brown field policy, upping density levels, and setting ever high environmental standards - particularly for insulation and sound proofing.

It is no longer just a question of protecting the countryside or regenerating the towns. It is a matter of national survival. If anyone believes that there will be much chance for Britain to get additional oil supplies in a world dominated by the battle of the titans, they will be sadly disappointed. Assuming that we see off the sad isolationists of UKIP, we shall need all the united strength of the European Union to gain a proper share of the available oil supplies. Planning for sustainable cities now will give us a chance of success when push comes to shove. Where the US is designing for future impossible we must plan for future reality.

BY: Rt. Hon. John Gummer

Topics:
Nelle's picture

Huh?

And New Urbanists are fascists why, exactly?

Or was I so thrown by your apparently ubergeek references that I missed some tinge of sarcasm ...

Number9's picture

And New Urbanists are

And New Urbanists are fascists why, exactly?

Because they use politics to restrict choice?

Rachel's picture

Fascists.

Because they use politics to restrict choice?

Hmm, so since George Bush opposes reproductive choice, he's a fascist?

Nelle's picture

Simple answers to simple questions

Hmm, so since George Bush opposes reproductive choice, he's a fascist?

Yes.

Nelle's picture

Sigh

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to this, except I feel compelled to note that in both his writing and his speeches (which are widely available for anyone willing to look for them), John Norquist, president of the Congress of the New Urbanism, emphasizes that the regulatory tools espoused by New Urbanism are generally more responsive to market forces than traditional zoning, which he mocks as "socialist."

Tools like transect zoning and form-based codes allow more leeway for property owners to build what they want to build, as long as it fits in with the neighborhood. New Urbanism also ideally means more transportation choices, more housing-type choices, etc.

Do all developments that are marketed as New Urbanist fit these ideals? Not by a long shot.

But we're talking about the idea and the philosophy behind it, and I think they're largely sound, and obviously not fascistic.

edens's picture

>more compelling than a band

>more compelling than a band of space cadets engaged in battle >from the Terran carrier "Tiger Claw" in the war against the >Kilrathi

If you only knew...

Unless, of course, you do?

Nelle's picture

Hrmmm

Obviously not ...

edens's picture

Whoops, missed the initial

Whoops, missed the initial google reference.

But hey, it was a long time ago in a galaxy...wait, different show.

Still, the money was good.

rocketsquirrel's picture

ha

nelle, my apologies to others for not making the joke more clear. edens regularly jokes here and at the blab that those espousing new urbanist ideals that involve community design and planning must be fascist. I was making a light-hearted jab at myself and Matt...who i'm sure, like me, will continue to espouse such ideas.

Nelle's picture

Oops!

My apologies for not getting the joke.

Though at least we had the opportunity to educate 9, no?

Not that I'm holding my breath ...

Number9's picture

Really?

Though at least we had the opportunity to educate 9, no?

Education is a two way street. You might learn something here and here.

New Urbanism is about using politics to restrict choice. The use of Evil Sprawl as the boogie-man is very transparent. New Urbanism is vertical high density Sprawl versus suburban low density horizontal Sprawl. As long as there is choice it doesn't matter. When choice is restricted it does become fascism lite.

However, form-based codes and multi-use zoning can be good. The Devil is in the details.

The New Urbanism Versus the Market Process

Randall G. Holcombe

Florida State University

Conclusion

The new urbanist movement is concerned about the negative impacts of urban sprawl, and urges “smart growth” policies to control these negative impacts by increasing the population density of development, and by encouraging people to rely less on automobile travel and use alternative modes of transportation. This paper shows (1) that the concerns of the new urbanists are overblown or unfounded, and that sprawl does not generate the negative effects they claim;

(2) that market forces work against the new urbanist goals of higher density development and reduced reliance on automobile travel, so those goals are unlikely to be met in any event; (3) that if those new urbanist goals were met, it would lower people’s standards of living, not raise them;
and (4) that the type of planning urged by the new urbanist movement plans excessively to try to control the decisions of private landowners while planning insufficiently for the development of its own resources.

The fact that market forces work against the new urbanist goals is especially problematic. As incomes rise, people want to buy more living space for themselves, and want to buy more flexible transportation options. This means that market forces push for lower-density development and increasing automobile travel. Even if government could perfectly control the physical characteristics of development, it cannot (yet) control how many people live in each housing unit, giving government planners limited control over population density in even the most optimistic of scenarios. Meanwhile, suboptimal types of housing units get built (if the new urbanist planners are successful), lowering people’s standards of living. By pushing resources toward mass transit rather than planning for road networks to accommodate automobile travel, the new urbanist ideas are creating more traffic congestion, more air pollution, and again, lower standards of living. The ultimate lesson is that one cannot ignore market forces when trying to design institutions that improve people’s quality of life.

Nelle's picture

Pick your totalitarian state

I like how Holcombe equates New Urbanism with "Soviet-style central planning."

Whew! For a minute there I thought I was a fascist ...

Number9's picture

Ah yes...

I like how Holcombe equates New Urbanism with "Soviet-style central planning."

Whew! For a minute there I thought I was a fascist ...

If you like Holcombe you will love Courrèges who writes, "Therein lies the problem with the new urbanists. They don't trust people making their own choices with their own money. They want to make the decisions for us on how and where we should live our lives, and no matter how pure their motivations may be, their methods are simply atrocious".

This idea of choice is so...American.

Hayek's View of New Urbanism

by Owen Courrèges
Owen Courrèges is a Research Fellow in the Urban Futures Program at the Reason Foundation

June 13, 2004 -- "If we wish to preserve a free society," Friedrick Hayek once wrote, "it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion." These are words worth remembering this year, on the 60th anniversary of Hayek's seminal work, The Road to Serfdom.

Hayek's maxim is a bedrock principle of American liberty. Simply because a majority of Americans may prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla, we don't demand that the government ban all sales of vanilla. Although one may not appreciate the personal preferences of others, we typically realize that they're not any of our concern.

Alas, there is an established movement that argues precisely the opposite. They call themselves the "new urbanists" and advocate "smart growth" to curb the growth of that malignancy known portentously as "urban sprawl."

Those are, of course, merely buzzwords. New urbanism is, in reality, a set of policies aimed at managing development with an eye for greater population density, thus encouraging more public transit, and fewer cars. To this end, they recommend that local governments pass strict land use controls, including urban growth boundaries, zoning laws restricting the construction of single-family homes, and even the expanded use of eminent domain to foreclose on existing developments.

Of course, no philosophy is complete without a villain, and for the new urbanists the villain is low-density suburban development, a.k.a. "sprawl." Although Americans have flocked to suburban neighborhoods since time immemorial, there have always been those who, because they dislike the suburbs, wish to see their popularity diminished. That's how new urbanism first came about - because of resentment.

However, the unfettered real estate market offers no impediments to the development of high-density neighborhoods. Without the benefit of government interference, many individuals already choose urban living over the suburbs. What makes new urbanists resentful, then, is the fact that most people don't.

Now, the new urbanists could have simply become cheerleaders for urban development. They could have engaged in public campaigns, encouraging others to join the fold and live like San Franciscans. The effort might have been futile, but it would have been unquestionably legitimate. Instead, they have sought to enforce their preferences through coercion. They love their flavor of living so much, they intend to make it dominate under pain of law.

Occasionally, the new urbanists will allow their draconian intentions to slip out. For example, last year during a city council meeting on the subject of transit ridership in Madison , Wisconsin , project manager David Townbridge remarked that "lots of people on the council ... would like to use parking rates as a mechanism to force mass transit." He then gravely predicted that " people will think about whether they really want to pay at least $100 a month just to park."

"Force mass transit?" That's a key tenet of the new urbanist agenda. If people won't choose the "correct" path on their own, the new urbanists aim to force them to.

Similarly, in both San Diego and Los Angeles efforts are currently underway to ban the construction of the so-called "big box" stores. This would include popular chains such as Wal-Mart and Costco. According to the new urbanists, such bans are desirable because large retail stores foster the development of "sprawl." Whether or not shoppers like or dislike these stores is irrelevant; it's enough that they post a threat to new urbanist designs.

Of course, big box stores are better for consumers because they offer a superior selection at lower prices. This reveals an objective problem with new urbanism; it's simply more expensive. Since it imposes densification, real estate costs invariably increase, and higher real estate costs lead to higher prices at the register. On top of that, lot sizes are often regulated, which limits store selection and likewise increases costs.

This, I'm afraid, is not a matter of preference. It's one of economics. The new urbanists are costing us money.

Yet in the mind of new urbanists, this is completely justified. Who cares if vanilla costs less if chocolate is better? Under their philosophy, they're doing society a favor by enforcing a better way of living. In their view, we should be thanking them for saving us from ourselves.

Therein lies the problem with the new urbanists. They don't trust people making their own choices with their own money. They want to make the decisions for us on how and where we should live our lives, and no matter how pure their motivations may be, their methods are simply atrocious. Only I know what's best for me. They only know what's best for themselves.

Ultimately, it comes down to this simple principle: I don't want to be forced to eat chocolate if I happen to prefer vanilla. And neither should you.

Owen Courrèges is a research fellow in the Urban Futures program at the Reason Foundation and lives in Houston .

R. Neal's picture

Would you please post links

Would you please post links and excerpts instead of entire articles which may be copyrighted? Thanks!

edens's picture

>Matt...i'm sure, like me,

>Matt...i'm sure, like me, will continue to espouse such >ideas.

All part of my secret life as advance man on earth for a starfarring race of New Urbanist totalitarian cats.

ultron's picture

Aren't the Reason Foundation

Aren't the Reason Foundation folks the same people whose science writer took money from the petroleum industry (without disclosing it) to say that global warming didn't exist?

Number9's picture

So?

Aren't the Reason Foundation folks the same people whose science writer took money from the petroleum industry (without disclosing it) to say that global warming didn't exist?

I have no idea. Does it change what Owen Courrèges
wrote? What is more important, the message or the messenger?

Do you disagree with Courrèges? If so, then why? If you do not want to type much then just go to Goodwin. Many here do. It is easier than thinking.

Up Goose Creek's picture

Choices

#9, my critique of the articles is that they imply that bigger is always better, everyone wants the same thing, etc. This is false. Different buyers will want different livng situations, often people want different living situations as they age.

I don't see people being forced to live in high rises in Knox County. Do you?

bizgrrl's picture

I don't see people being

I don't see people being forced to live in high rises in Knox County. Do you?

Thank goodness.

rocketsquirrel's picture

deep breath

9, in your own totalitarian paranoid world view, did you even read my original post about energy policy as it relates to sprawl? the issue I was raising was that of sustainable community design. thanks for hijacking yet another thread.

Number9's picture

Nice try.

did you even read my original post about energy policy as it relates to sprawl? the issue I was raising was that of sustainable community design. thanks for hijacking yet another thread.

I understood the thread hence the response. If you want to walk in an Urban Wonderland go for it. But must you insist that everyone walk? In your post there is the suggestion to use public policy, zoning, and transportation policy to force a form of social behavior for the benefit of "national security". Bull. Social Democracy is easy to spot and easier to deconstruct.

This is social engineering. No thread hijack occurred. You should of asked if I could think of an example of "New Urbanism Social Engineering" in Knoxville.

Why didn't you?

Because you knew I would reference the 28 million dollar waste of taxpayer money for the Knoxville Transit Center. As another member of KnoxViews noted more could be done to encourage mass transit in Knoxville simply by providing more buses and reliable pickup times. But there is no Federal Grant to do that. Where is the market study of KAT ridership to justify taking 28 million dollars of federal money?

Perhaps you would care to comment on this:

Now, the new urbanists could have simply become cheerleaders for urban development. They could have engaged in public campaigns, encouraging others to join the fold and live like San Franciscans. The effort might have been futile, but it would have been unquestionably legitimate. Instead, they have sought to enforce their preferences through coercion. They love their flavor of living so much, they intend to make it dominate under pain of law.

Occasionally, the new urbanists will allow their draconian intentions to slip out. For example, last year during a city council meeting on the subject of transit ridership in Madison , Wisconsin , project manager David Townbridge remarked that "lots of people on the council ... would like to use parking rates as a mechanism to force mass transit." He then gravely predicted that " people will think about whether they really want to pay at least $100 a month just to park."

edens's picture

>As another member of

>As another member of KnoxViews noted more could be done to >encourage mass transit in Knoxville simply by providing more >buses and reliable pickup times. But there is no Federal >Grant to do that.

Well, consider the source.

And frankly, Nine, all this talk about New Urbanists using the political process to restrict choice, I suppose god came down from heaven and rezoned most of west knox county single family residential?

Number9's picture

The God reference is a nice touch.

And frankly, Nine, all this talk about New Urbanists using the political process to restrict choice, I suppose god came down from heaven and rezoned most of west knox county single family residential?

I would have thought you would introduce Kunstler the II to defend your position. But sarcasm is good too.

The current infill for West Knoxville has a great deal of high density apartments and condos. For example, West Hills is ringed by apartments and condos. But you know that.

Is there anything wrong with single family residential? Other than developers don't make as much money and it is not socially acceptable to some people? I have heard that some people even have three car garages in their Bourgeoisie single family homes. Evil doers.

Rachel's picture

Is there anything wrong with

Is there anything wrong with single family residential?

Of course not. But it does "restrict choice," and is, by your definition, fascist.

edens's picture

>Is there anything wrong

>Is there anything wrong with single family residential?

Not really. And if you actually knew anything about New Urbanism, you'd know that most new urbanist developments are predominantly single-family (by acreage if not overall unit count).

You may not have noticed, other than the occasional sarcasm, I tend to shy away from those anti-bourqeoisie moral arguments against the burbs. Such arguments are about as pointless and tiresome as the "socialists in disquise" argument from folks like The Reason Foundation (who tend to lump any and all anti-growth agitation under the heading "new urbanist").

For instance, there's nothing intrinsicly "new-urbanist" about anti-big-box store legislation(and I'm not particularly fond of such legislation). It might shock you to learn that quite a few actual New Urbanist developments contain big box retail

rocketsquirrel's picture

big box retail

<--It might shock you to learn that quite a few actual New Urbanist developments contain big box retail--->

including Gerber Village in Asheville, which I referenced earlier in comparison to Turkey Creek. But Matt, the only differences between the two developments is apparently restriction of choice, which somehow became the topic of this thread, instead of community design and sustainable communities.

In fact, one could argue that while what has happened in Fort Sanders is NOT good from a historic preservation planning perspective, the "big box" apartments are more European in nature, resulting in a more efficient, sustainably designed community from an energy consumption perspective in relation to the automobile.

edens's picture

>one could argue that while

>one could argue that while what has happened in Fort Sanders >is NOT good from a historic preservation planning >perspective, the "big box" apartments are more European in >nature, resulting in a more efficient, sustainably designed >community from an energy consumption perspective in relation >to the automobile.

I'd say the answer to that is yes and no. Certainly the buildings are bigger (huge, in the case of the UT Foundation's Volhalla) but many aren't arranged in all that efficient or pedestrian-friendly manner. Compare, for instance, the Jefferson Commons stuff with what was later built under the NC guidelines (Verdat Aboush's buildings on the corner of Highland and 16th and the development on Laurel between 16th and 15th. There's really not that much difference in the size and scale of the buildings, but the way the newer buildings are oriented in relation to the street and their parking fits and works much better.

And, really, despite all Nine's hue and cry about "concrete canyons" most New Urbanism is about those subtle differences in arrangement and layout (indeed, New Urbanism is a big driver in HUD's HOPEVI policy of replacing largely high-rise housing projects with something less dense).

I mean, honestly, look through this photo tour of Kentlands (the true prototype new urbanist suburban development, since Seaside was always meant to be a resort community):

(link...)

The housing types and architecture aren't all that different from what you'd find in any upscale development in West Knoxville. Not that much denser, really, if you consider how close the homes in cul-de-sac subdivisions actually are The neighbors are certainly no-closer in the townhuses and multifamily units than in a standard suburban development, . The difference is largely how the individual pieces interact and are arranged on the landscape.

Number9's picture

Positive New Urbanism

The housing types and architecture aren't all that different from what you'd find in any upscale development in West Knoxville. Not that much denser, really, if you consider how close the homes in cul-de-sac subdivisions actually are The neighbors are certainly no-closer in the townhuses and multifamily units than in a standard suburban development, . The difference is largely how the individual pieces interact and are arranged on the landscape.

A good example that not all of New Urbanism is wrong. Take out the social agenda and don't come to the taxpayers for money and New Urbanism can work.

Why can't we see some of the Kentlands in the design of the South Knox Waterfront?

Number9's picture

Why no Kentlands?

I mean, honestly, look through this photo tour of Kentlands (the true prototype new urbanist suburban development, since Seaside was always meant to be a resort community):

(link...)

The biggest mystery to me is that so far there is no component of the South Knox Waterfront like Kentlands. I argue a lot with edens but this is what I envisioned as a part of the South Knox Waterfront. Not all of it, but it does seem this should be considered for part of the Waterfront. This is one of the major oversights as far as I can see. Some will argue that these look a little pricey. You should hope so. There needs to be a balance. My guess is that middle class condos will be poorly represented also.

Up Goose Creek's picture

detached homes

9, there are houses that look like Kentlands on Phillips avenue. (well maybe not quite so big) Even a few in my neighborhood. I know one of them that could be for sale if you'll e-mail me. We need to get more commited homeowners here.

ultron's picture

My comment was more along

My comment was more along the lines of, consider the source.

I dunno, seems to me that the writer is ascribing a menace to new urbanism that is not necessarily there. Was it really born out of resentment at suburbs and suburban-dwellers? I have no idea, but it seems a little simplistic. I grew up within city limits, but in a lower-density, suburban type environment, and I liked that. And as I shop at Wal-Mart and drive to the mall out west, I don't feel particularly coerced, threatened or oppressed by the spectre of new urbanism.

Nelle's picture

Try harder

... I don't feel particularly coerced, threatened or oppressed by the spectre of new urbanism.

Obviously, you're not trying hard enough.

Rachel's picture

vertical high density Sprawl

vertical high density Sprawl

Huh?

And you never did answer my question - if the definition of a fascist is one who uses politics to restrict choice, does that make George Bush (and other anti- reproductive choice advocates) a fascist?

Just trying to get the definitions straight.

Nelle's picture

Evidence of market failure

In an effort to get the conversation back on track, here's a report on a new study, out of the afore-mentioned Atlanta, suggesting that there is indeed an unmet demand for walkable places, even in the most sprawling of regions.

I expect that a similar study in our next of the woods would find comparable results.

A snippet:

"In all, about a third of metro Atlantans living in conventional suburban development would have preferred a more walkable environment, but apparently traded it off for other reasons such as affordability, school quality, or perception of crime," the report says. It defines a walkable environment as one in which distances between destinations are comfortably reachable on foot, and the street network is well-connected rather than full of cul-de-sacs.

Number9's picture

A little pretentious of you.

In an effort to get the conversation back on track

Do you believe that suburban neighborhoods and walkable communities are mutually exclusive? You would be incorrect if you believe that.

In fact offering sidewalks and bike riding trails enhances the product offering for suburban developments.

This issue starts at the MPC level. Your plea falls on deaf ears if MPC does not require walkability via ordinance. In other words the developer has to build sidewalks and walking/riding trails.

Ask developers if they want to pay for sidewalks and riding trails. Then you will understand why there are so few sidewalks.

As far as the study you reference, obesity? You have to be kidding. Let's review the New Urbanists talking points:

Al Gore said save the planet

We have only ten years

The Car is the enemy

We are fat so walking is the solution

I don't care what developers build as long as the taxpayers don't have to fund it. Let developers build old style zero lot line three story mixed-use form-based codes neighborhoods with alleys in the back. People that desire that life style will purchase those homes. Just don't come to the taxpayer to pay for it.

Why does Northshore Town Center get a TIF for interior roads when other subdivision developments don't get a TIF for roads? Does that seem fair? Does it seem equitable?

Do you realize how transparent the New Urbanist agenda is? But I do appreciate your trying to save the planet and all the fat people.

edens's picture

>Why does Northshore Town

>Why does Northshore Town Center get a TIF for interior roads >when other subdivision developments don't get a TIF for >roads? Does that seem fair? Does it seem equitable?

Well, I suppose they could do what Turley did at Turkey Creek and just get the city to straight-up build it for them.

Bill Lyons's picture

Northshore Town Center

Just as an FYI there are no City TIF funds going to interior roads at Northshore Town Center.

Number9's picture

Thanks Bill,

Just as an FYI there are no City TIF funds going to interior roads at Northshore Town Center.

What are the City TIF funds for?

edens's picture

>What are the City TIF funds

>What are the City TIF funds for?

Improvements to the Northshore/Pellissippi interchange and, I think, a turn lane on Northshore at the entrance to the development. Infrastructure costs that TDOT, the city, whoever, would typically eat, I believe?

I mean, did Turley kick in any cash for the extensive reworking of Lovell and Campbell Station Road interchanges?

Number9's picture

Was it?

Improvements to the Northshore/Pellissippi interchange and, I think, a turn lane on Northshore at the entrance to the development. Infrastructure costs that TDOT, the city, whoever, would typically eat, I believe?

Then why was it after the fact and the developer said they would go bankrupt without it?

Turley did not pay for the main road or the intersections. The roads and intersections were planned as part of the development and went through the bond process.

I don't think that is an apples to apples comparison.

Bill Lyons's picture

Bonds vs. TIF - Northshore Town Center

#9 is correct on the difference in the two funding methods but I would carry through with the difference a bit further. The city did fund the infrastructure for Turkey Creek through the bond process and Northshore Town Center road improvements are funded through an infrastructure TIF. The Bond process puts the city at risk. If the development does produce additional tax revenues sufficient to retire the bonds the city is still obligated to pay off the them off. In the case of Turkey Creek the city paid for the road work on the front end.

With the infrastructure TIF as set up for Northshore, the developer paying up front for all the work and is repayed by the increased tax revenues as they come in. The big difference is that if the development does not pan out for whatever reason and the taxes are not forthcoming the developers and their bank partners are on the hook for the cost of the road improvements. The city is not at risk at all here. Northshore would be improved, widened, with additional signalization and those driving Northshore under increasingly difficult conditions in the area would still benefit.

Number9's picture

Interesting take on the issue

The Bond process puts the city at risk.

Thanks for the reply Bill. I have not heard that bonding puts the City at risk if a project fails. It seems logical.

On the other hand, could the premise be made that if the City is not at risk, through a TIF, then a project less certain than a massive shopping mall in West Knoxville next to two Interstates might be green-lighted?

If I understand correctly, if the developer went bankrupt the bank would then be responsible for the balance on the TIF? It sounds like the bank is a co-signer?

Remembering the Butcher days of yore should there be a concern about over speculation? In the era of the World's Fair banks made loans on some real long shots.

Bill Lyons's picture

Interesting point regarding banks

Interesting point about banks and TIF loans. Some banks have been very comfortable with the risk profile and the concept and others are not. As more get a comfort level they can live with it really does turn to the value of the project as they see it. In a way there is not a whole lot of difference between a bank making a loan directly to the developer to finance the project and another (or the same, I guess) bank making a TIF loan associated with the project. In either case if the project does not work the bank may have a bad loan to deal with.

In reality, you rarely see a TIF loan unless the rest of the project has already applied for and gotten bank financing so there has already been a good bit of due diligence.

shortstuff's picture

TIF

TIF's are not all drawn the same way. A TIF subordinates the position of the borrower. The tax abatement also is taken into consideration because it increases the cash flow of the borrower.

edens's picture

Speaking of the market,

Speaking of the market, homes in new urbanist developments typically command higher prices than traditional suburban developments in the same market, mostly due to demand.

Highrise urban condos (sales of which, as nine has gleefully noted, are crapping out in some of the most over-speculated markets) aren't exactly what new urbanism is all about - if at all, really (a fair amount of new urbanist theory actually argues against going highrise).

shortstuff's picture

Get a Life

You folks need to get a life. As for me and my three car heated garage...to heck with walking, I wanna drive everywhere I go! AND IT'S CALLED CHOICE!!!

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