fascist new urbanists, who find battles between urbanists and suburbanists more compelling than a band of space cadets engaged in battle from the Terran carrier "Tiger Claw" in the war against the Kilrathi, might be interested in this view from across the pond by a MP for Suffolk Coastal.
Apparently urban planning in Britain is being driven more by energy security policy than demonstrations of affluence, which is a good thing.
you'll have to google to appreciate the Tiger Claw reference.
ESTATES GAZETTE
09-06-04Planning
A flying visit to the United States has left me seriously depressed. Not about the war, although that remains as serious a mess as some of us warned, but about America's ability to plan for her own future. The issue of energy security ought to have alerted the nation to the fact that her present course is utterly unsustainable. Yet, the suburbs around her booming cities continue to expand in a way that is entirely dependent upon the car. There is no real concept of containment. Urban renewal is an also-ran, part of social policy rather than central to the development of the nation. For middle-class America, suburban living in ever greater luxury with ever more space, is the great driver.
Read more after the jump...
I was in Atlanta, one of the two or three fastest growing places in the US. Six-bedroomed, six-bathroomed detached houses are going up many miles from the commercial centre. Families here have three garages, use them and still there are cars outside. No-one old enough to drive can do without a car. This has long been the pattern in the US since robber barons bought up the railroads and tramways to eliminate the automobile's competition. Yet, it has got worse. Here, it is literally impossible to buy a loaf of bread on foot or on bicycle. The extension of the rapid transit system has been vetoed by those who feared that the wrong kind of people might thereby be enabled to come to their ungated ghettos of affluence and well-being. Fortress America has another meaning here.
The dependence upon oil is total. The election has been centering on which of the candidates can more credibly claim to influence the producers to cut the price of crude. Few seem to be concentrating on the real issue of supply. The world is running out of oil and is consuming it at an unprecedented rate. By 2020, China will be importing 10 million barrels a day. That's more than the US does now. By then, the issue will not just be price but availability.
All this just emphasises the importance for Britain to stick to its planning guns. Mr Brown could so easily be tempted by the long-time Treasury view that there is plenty of green field land available for housing. His impatience with the planning system is manifest and his promotion of Kate Barker's Report as a counterpoint to John Prescott's plans is ominous. Yet, there is no way in which we can make five million new homes sustainable except by sticking rigidly to the brown field policy, upping density levels, and setting ever high environmental standards - particularly for insulation and sound proofing.
It is no longer just a question of protecting the countryside or regenerating the towns. It is a matter of national survival. If anyone believes that there will be much chance for Britain to get additional oil supplies in a world dominated by the battle of the titans, they will be sadly disappointed. Assuming that we see off the sad isolationists of UKIP, we shall need all the united strength of the European Union to gain a proper share of the available oil supplies. Planning for sustainable cities now will give us a chance of success when push comes to shove. Where the US is designing for future impossible we must plan for future reality.
BY: Rt. Hon. John Gummer
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Huh?
And New Urbanists are fascists why, exactly?
Or was I so thrown by your apparently ubergeek references that I missed some tinge of sarcasm ...
And New Urbanists are
And New Urbanists are fascists why, exactly?
Because they use politics to restrict choice?
Fascists.
Because they use politics to restrict choice?
Hmm, so since George Bush opposes reproductive choice, he's a fascist?
Simple answers to simple questions
Hmm, so since George Bush opposes reproductive choice, he's a fascist?
Yes.
Sigh
I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to this, except I feel compelled to note that in both his writing and his speeches (which are widely available for anyone willing to look for them), John Norquist, president of the Congress of the New Urbanism, emphasizes that the regulatory tools espoused by New Urbanism are generally more responsive to market forces than traditional zoning, which he mocks as "socialist."
Tools like transect zoning and form-based codes allow more leeway for property owners to build what they want to build, as long as it fits in with the neighborhood. New Urbanism also ideally means more transportation choices, more housing-type choices, etc.
Do all developments that are marketed as New Urbanist fit these ideals? Not by a long shot.
But we're talking about the idea and the philosophy behind it, and I think they're largely sound, and obviously not fascistic.
>more compelling than a band
>more compelling than a band of space cadets engaged in battle >from the Terran carrier "Tiger Claw" in the war against the >Kilrathi
If you only knew...
Unless, of course, you do?
Hrmmm
Obviously not ...
Whoops, missed the initial
Whoops, missed the initial google reference.
But hey, it was a long time ago in a galaxy...wait, different show.
Still, the money was good.
ha
nelle, my apologies to others for not making the joke more clear. edens regularly jokes here and at the blab that those espousing new urbanist ideals that involve community design and planning must be fascist. I was making a light-hearted jab at myself and Matt...who i'm sure, like me, will continue to espouse such ideas.
Oops!
My apologies for not getting the joke.
Though at least we had the opportunity to educate 9, no?
Not that I'm holding my breath ...
Really?
Though at least we had the opportunity to educate 9, no?
Education is a two way street. You might learn something here and here.
New Urbanism is about using politics to restrict choice. The use of Evil Sprawl as the boogie-man is very transparent. New Urbanism is vertical high density Sprawl versus suburban low density horizontal Sprawl. As long as there is choice it doesn't matter. When choice is restricted it does become fascism lite.
However, form-based codes and multi-use zoning can be good. The Devil is in the details.
Pick your totalitarian state
I like how Holcombe equates New Urbanism with "Soviet-style central planning."
Whew! For a minute there I thought I was a fascist ...
Ah yes...
I like how Holcombe equates New Urbanism with "Soviet-style central planning."
Whew! For a minute there I thought I was a fascist ...
If you like Holcombe you will love Courrèges who writes, "Therein lies the problem with the new urbanists. They don't trust people making their own choices with their own money. They want to make the decisions for us on how and where we should live our lives, and no matter how pure their motivations may be, their methods are simply atrocious".
This idea of choice is so...American.
Would you please post links
Would you please post links and excerpts instead of entire articles which may be copyrighted? Thanks!
>Matt...i'm sure, like me,
>Matt...i'm sure, like me, will continue to espouse such >ideas.
All part of my secret life as advance man on earth for a starfarring race of New Urbanist totalitarian cats.
Aren't the Reason Foundation
Aren't the Reason Foundation folks the same people whose science writer took money from the petroleum industry (without disclosing it) to say that global warming didn't exist?
So?
Aren't the Reason Foundation folks the same people whose science writer took money from the petroleum industry (without disclosing it) to say that global warming didn't exist?
I have no idea. Does it change what Owen Courrèges
wrote? What is more important, the message or the messenger?
Do you disagree with Courrèges? If so, then why? If you do not want to type much then just go to Goodwin. Many here do. It is easier than thinking.
Choices
#9, my critique of the articles is that they imply that bigger is always better, everyone wants the same thing, etc. This is false. Different buyers will want different livng situations, often people want different living situations as they age.
I don't see people being forced to live in high rises in Knox County. Do you?
I don't see people being
I don't see people being forced to live in high rises in Knox County. Do you?
Thank goodness.
deep breath
9, in your own totalitarian paranoid world view, did you even read my original post about energy policy as it relates to sprawl? the issue I was raising was that of sustainable community design. thanks for hijacking yet another thread.
Nice try.
did you even read my original post about energy policy as it relates to sprawl? the issue I was raising was that of sustainable community design. thanks for hijacking yet another thread.
I understood the thread hence the response. If you want to walk in an Urban Wonderland go for it. But must you insist that everyone walk? In your post there is the suggestion to use public policy, zoning, and transportation policy to force a form of social behavior for the benefit of "national security". Bull. Social Democracy is easy to spot and easier to deconstruct.
This is social engineering. No thread hijack occurred. You should of asked if I could think of an example of "New Urbanism Social Engineering" in Knoxville.
Why didn't you?
Because you knew I would reference the 28 million dollar waste of taxpayer money for the Knoxville Transit Center. As another member of KnoxViews noted more could be done to encourage mass transit in Knoxville simply by providing more buses and reliable pickup times. But there is no Federal Grant to do that. Where is the market study of KAT ridership to justify taking 28 million dollars of federal money?
Perhaps you would care to comment on this:
>As another member of
>As another member of KnoxViews noted more could be done to >encourage mass transit in Knoxville simply by providing more >buses and reliable pickup times. But there is no Federal >Grant to do that.
Well, consider the source.
And frankly, Nine, all this talk about New Urbanists using the political process to restrict choice, I suppose god came down from heaven and rezoned most of west knox county single family residential?
The God reference is a nice touch.
And frankly, Nine, all this talk about New Urbanists using the political process to restrict choice, I suppose god came down from heaven and rezoned most of west knox county single family residential?
I would have thought you would introduce Kunstler the II to defend your position. But sarcasm is good too.
The current infill for West Knoxville has a great deal of high density apartments and condos. For example, West Hills is ringed by apartments and condos. But you know that.
Is there anything wrong with single family residential? Other than developers don't make as much money and it is not socially acceptable to some people? I have heard that some people even have three car garages in their Bourgeoisie single family homes. Evil doers.
Is there anything wrong with
Is there anything wrong with single family residential?
Of course not. But it does "restrict choice," and is, by your definition, fascist.
>Is there anything wrong
>Is there anything wrong with single family residential?
Not really. And if you actually knew anything about New Urbanism, you'd know that most new urbanist developments are predominantly single-family (by acreage if not overall unit count).
You may not have noticed, other than the occasional sarcasm, I tend to shy away from those anti-bourqeoisie moral arguments against the burbs. Such arguments are about as pointless and tiresome as the "socialists in disquise" argument from folks like The Reason Foundation (who tend to lump any and all anti-growth agitation under the heading "new urbanist").
For instance, there's nothing intrinsicly "new-urbanist" about anti-big-box store legislation(and I'm not particularly fond of such legislation). It might shock you to learn that quite a few actual New Urbanist developments contain big box retail
big box retail
<--It might shock you to learn that quite a few actual New Urbanist developments contain big box retail--->
including Gerber Village in Asheville, which I referenced earlier in comparison to Turkey Creek. But Matt, the only differences between the two developments is apparently restriction of choice, which somehow became the topic of this thread, instead of community design and sustainable communities.
In fact, one could argue that while what has happened in Fort Sanders is NOT good from a historic preservation planning perspective, the "big box" apartments are more European in nature, resulting in a more efficient, sustainably designed community from an energy consumption perspective in relation to the automobile.
>one could argue that while
>one could argue that while what has happened in Fort Sanders >is NOT good from a historic preservation planning >perspective, the "big box" apartments are more European in >nature, resulting in a more efficient, sustainably designed >community from an energy consumption perspective in relation >to the automobile.
I'd say the answer to that is yes and no. Certainly the buildings are bigger (huge, in the case of the UT Foundation's Volhalla) but many aren't arranged in all that efficient or pedestrian-friendly manner. Compare, for instance, the Jefferson Commons stuff with what was later built under the NC guidelines (Verdat Aboush's buildings on the corner of Highland and 16th and the development on Laurel between 16th and 15th. There's really not that much difference in the size and scale of the buildings, but the way the newer buildings are oriented in relation to the street and their parking fits and works much better.
And, really, despite all Nine's hue and cry about "concrete canyons" most New Urbanism is about those subtle differences in arrangement and layout (indeed, New Urbanism is a big driver in HUD's HOPEVI policy of replacing largely high-rise housing projects with something less dense).
I mean, honestly, look through this photo tour of Kentlands (the true prototype new urbanist suburban development, since Seaside was always meant to be a resort community):
(link...)
The housing types and architecture aren't all that different from what you'd find in any upscale development in West Knoxville. Not that much denser, really, if you consider how close the homes in cul-de-sac subdivisions actually are The neighbors are certainly no-closer in the townhuses and multifamily units than in a standard suburban development, . The difference is largely how the individual pieces interact and are arranged on the landscape.
Positive New Urbanism
The housing types and architecture aren't all that different from what you'd find in any upscale development in West Knoxville. Not that much denser, really, if you consider how close the homes in cul-de-sac subdivisions actually are The neighbors are certainly no-closer in the townhuses and multifamily units than in a standard suburban development, . The difference is largely how the individual pieces interact and are arranged on the landscape.
A good example that not all of New Urbanism is wrong. Take out the social agenda and don't come to the taxpayers for money and New Urbanism can work.
Why can't we see some of the Kentlands in the design of the South Knox Waterfront?
Why no Kentlands?
I mean, honestly, look through this photo tour of Kentlands (the true prototype new urbanist suburban development, since Seaside was always meant to be a resort community):
(link...)
The biggest mystery to me is that so far there is no component of the South Knox Waterfront like Kentlands. I argue a lot with edens but this is what I envisioned as a part of the South Knox Waterfront. Not all of it, but it does seem this should be considered for part of the Waterfront. This is one of the major oversights as far as I can see. Some will argue that these look a little pricey. You should hope so. There needs to be a balance. My guess is that middle class condos will be poorly represented also.
detached homes
9, there are houses that look like Kentlands on Phillips avenue. (well maybe not quite so big) Even a few in my neighborhood. I know one of them that could be for sale if you'll e-mail me. We need to get more commited homeowners here.
My comment was more along
My comment was more along the lines of, consider the source.
I dunno, seems to me that the writer is ascribing a menace to new urbanism that is not necessarily there. Was it really born out of resentment at suburbs and suburban-dwellers? I have no idea, but it seems a little simplistic. I grew up within city limits, but in a lower-density, suburban type environment, and I liked that. And as I shop at Wal-Mart and drive to the mall out west, I don't feel particularly coerced, threatened or oppressed by the spectre of new urbanism.
Try harder
... I don't feel particularly coerced, threatened or oppressed by the spectre of new urbanism.
Obviously, you're not trying hard enough.
vertical high density Sprawl
vertical high density Sprawl
Huh?
And you never did answer my question - if the definition of a fascist is one who uses politics to restrict choice, does that make George Bush (and other anti- reproductive choice advocates) a fascist?
Just trying to get the definitions straight.
Evidence of market failure
In an effort to get the conversation back on track, here's a report on a new study, out of the afore-mentioned Atlanta, suggesting that there is indeed an unmet demand for walkable places, even in the most sprawling of regions.
I expect that a similar study in our next of the woods would find comparable results.
A snippet:
"In all, about a third of metro Atlantans living in conventional suburban development would have preferred a more walkable environment, but apparently traded it off for other reasons such as affordability, school quality, or perception of crime," the report says. It defines a walkable environment as one in which distances between destinations are comfortably reachable on foot, and the street network is well-connected rather than full of cul-de-sacs.
A little pretentious of you.
In an effort to get the conversation back on track
Do you believe that suburban neighborhoods and walkable communities are mutually exclusive? You would be incorrect if you believe that.
In fact offering sidewalks and bike riding trails enhances the product offering for suburban developments.
This issue starts at the MPC level. Your plea falls on deaf ears if MPC does not require walkability via ordinance. In other words the developer has to build sidewalks and walking/riding trails.
Ask developers if they want to pay for sidewalks and riding trails. Then you will understand why there are so few sidewalks.
As far as the study you reference, obesity? You have to be kidding. Let's review the New Urbanists talking points:
Al Gore said save the planet
We have only ten years
The Car is the enemy
We are fat so walking is the solution
I don't care what developers build as long as the taxpayers don't have to fund it. Let developers build old style zero lot line three story mixed-use form-based codes neighborhoods with alleys in the back. People that desire that life style will purchase those homes. Just don't come to the taxpayer to pay for it.
Why does Northshore Town Center get a TIF for interior roads when other subdivision developments don't get a TIF for roads? Does that seem fair? Does it seem equitable?
Do you realize how transparent the New Urbanist agenda is? But I do appreciate your trying to save the planet and all the fat people.
>Why does Northshore Town
>Why does Northshore Town Center get a TIF for interior roads >when other subdivision developments don't get a TIF for >roads? Does that seem fair? Does it seem equitable?
Well, I suppose they could do what Turley did at Turkey Creek and just get the city to straight-up build it for them.
Northshore Town Center
Just as an FYI there are no City TIF funds going to interior roads at Northshore Town Center.
Thanks Bill,
Just as an FYI there are no City TIF funds going to interior roads at Northshore Town Center.
What are the City TIF funds for?
>What are the City TIF funds
>What are the City TIF funds for?
Improvements to the Northshore/Pellissippi interchange and, I think, a turn lane on Northshore at the entrance to the development. Infrastructure costs that TDOT, the city, whoever, would typically eat, I believe?
I mean, did Turley kick in any cash for the extensive reworking of Lovell and Campbell Station Road interchanges?
Was it?
Improvements to the Northshore/Pellissippi interchange and, I think, a turn lane on Northshore at the entrance to the development. Infrastructure costs that TDOT, the city, whoever, would typically eat, I believe?
Then why was it after the fact and the developer said they would go bankrupt without it?
Turley did not pay for the main road or the intersections. The roads and intersections were planned as part of the development and went through the bond process.
I don't think that is an apples to apples comparison.
Bonds vs. TIF - Northshore Town Center
#9 is correct on the difference in the two funding methods but I would carry through with the difference a bit further. The city did fund the infrastructure for Turkey Creek through the bond process and Northshore Town Center road improvements are funded through an infrastructure TIF. The Bond process puts the city at risk. If the development does produce additional tax revenues sufficient to retire the bonds the city is still obligated to pay off the them off. In the case of Turkey Creek the city paid for the road work on the front end.
With the infrastructure TIF as set up for Northshore, the developer paying up front for all the work and is repayed by the increased tax revenues as they come in. The big difference is that if the development does not pan out for whatever reason and the taxes are not forthcoming the developers and their bank partners are on the hook for the cost of the road improvements. The city is not at risk at all here. Northshore would be improved, widened, with additional signalization and those driving Northshore under increasingly difficult conditions in the area would still benefit.
Interesting take on the issue
The Bond process puts the city at risk.
Thanks for the reply Bill. I have not heard that bonding puts the City at risk if a project fails. It seems logical.
On the other hand, could the premise be made that if the City is not at risk, through a TIF, then a project less certain than a massive shopping mall in West Knoxville next to two Interstates might be green-lighted?
If I understand correctly, if the developer went bankrupt the bank would then be responsible for the balance on the TIF? It sounds like the bank is a co-signer?
Remembering the Butcher days of yore should there be a concern about over speculation? In the era of the World's Fair banks made loans on some real long shots.
Interesting point regarding banks
Interesting point about banks and TIF loans. Some banks have been very comfortable with the risk profile and the concept and others are not. As more get a comfort level they can live with it really does turn to the value of the project as they see it. In a way there is not a whole lot of difference between a bank making a loan directly to the developer to finance the project and another (or the same, I guess) bank making a TIF loan associated with the project. In either case if the project does not work the bank may have a bad loan to deal with.
In reality, you rarely see a TIF loan unless the rest of the project has already applied for and gotten bank financing so there has already been a good bit of due diligence.
TIF
TIF's are not all drawn the same way. A TIF subordinates the position of the borrower. The tax abatement also is taken into consideration because it increases the cash flow of the borrower.
Speaking of the market,
Speaking of the market, homes in new urbanist developments typically command higher prices than traditional suburban developments in the same market, mostly due to demand.
Highrise urban condos (sales of which, as nine has gleefully noted, are crapping out in some of the most over-speculated markets) aren't exactly what new urbanism is all about - if at all, really (a fair amount of new urbanist theory actually argues against going highrise).
Get a Life
You folks need to get a life. As for me and my three car heated garage...to heck with walking, I wanna drive everywhere I go! AND IT'S CALLED CHOICE!!!