This is purely a functional observation of shopping in Knoxville, of the design of Turkey Creek, and of the design of shoppertainment areas and parking lots in general. Please apply at will to the discussion of appropriate asphalt for the South Waterfront.
I live off Broadway in the 4G/ONK area. couple of weeks ago, I saw a sales flyer for a $99 brown leather office chair from Office Max. Went east to "Knoxville Center" and parked in a vast oasis of largely empty asphalt. They were out of stock, but politely looked in inventory and found one remaining at the Turkey Creek store.
Driving distance 21.2 miles to another vast oasis of asphalt full of very short-tempered drivers.
With New Years sales going on, the parking lot at Office Max Turkey Creek was pretty full. I parked in front of Office Max, got my chair, loaded it in the buggy, took it to my truck. No cart returns. Walked back to Office Max returned the cart. Got the "pissed off accelerated drive around" by a large SUV. They wanted a parking space I was walking past. My apologies to that driver for not having longer legs that could walk as fast as their SUV.
I then walked to Super Target to get a side table. No table. Leaving Target, a driver ignored the pedestrian painted stripes and zoomed past me (which means that pedestrians have the right of way, btw) although, not being a militant pedestrian, I try hard to make eye contact with drivers, yield the right of way, be polite, smile, etc.
Anyway, I then walked back to truck in front of Office Max.
I decided to DRIVE to Super Walmart, parking equidistantly between Walmart and the outparcel Chick-Fil-A. (my lunch plan.) Got table at Walmart, no drive by incidents this time, loaded the table in the truck, and walked to Chick Fil A, (through the drive through lane to get to their "sidewalk." Got honked at (maybe they thought I was a homeless person? who would walk?)
my only point: Turkey Creek could have been designed so much better. It could have been designed as a community but it wasn't. The goal was traffic clogged, destination shoppertainment.
Buying a chair and a table should be relatively pain free, and pleasant. It wasn't. From an objective, function point analysis of moving person, vehicle, and purchases from point A to B to C, it was dysfunctional.
There are some nice shops that would be fun to visit, but it's just not worth it, and I shouldn't have to drive to each store located within the same shopping center. If my son were with me, I would, purely for safety from some of the aggressive drivers.
I'm sure I did it all wrong, it's my fault, I just don't understand, but next time, I'm ordering online and paying shipping.
Turkey Creek could have been more like Gerber Village in Asheville, where they tore down the Gerber Baby Food plant and built this:
From SmartGrowth News:
Asheville's ''Gerber Village:'' No Cars Required''Gerber Village could be called the 'Anti-Atlanta','' says The Asheville Citizen-Times in an editorial about this $150 million project for the 38-acre south Asheville site of the former Gerber baby food factory, where in three to five years about 1,500 residents will find ''almost every amenity without involving an automobile.''
The site's ''urban village'' zoning district, created by the Asheville City Council under its Unified Development Ordinance ''to encourage smart growth,'' the editorial says, is ''a far better fit than the Wal-Mart Supercenter'' that had been discussed as a possibility.
South Miami's Gulfside Development Co. expects to break ground this summer, planning a total of 230,000 square feet of retail and office space, with its first phase construction completed next spring, and 516 to 616 condominiums.
''Once you're here, everything you need is going to be readily available,'' stresses Gulfside Director of Development Jose Suarez-Marill.
Glad to see similar examples of downtown-like urban villages in Buncombe County, the daily mentions Eastwood Village, Cheshire and Biltmore Lake, concluding, ''In-fill development of vacant land, an increase in the city and county tax base and minimal traffic impact is indeed 'smart growth' and a welcome addition to the landscape.'' -- The Asheville Citizen-Times 5/28/2004
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Fascist
Fascist
I live in Karns. I hate
I live in Karns. I hate driving in the West Knoxville area. Everywhere you go, there are drivers who firmly believe that you are using their roadway and are in their way.
Humbug, I say!
Baby Food Facism
Facist Baby Food Fodder for Fickle Fans of Fancy Facades?
I had a meeting Saturday at Gerber Village. Having grown up going up and down Hendersonville Road in the Skyland area, it is amazing. The Gerber article was 2004. the execution of the project is very well done. There are new buildings that really look 100 years old.
And you can park and walk.
It is a less than great civil engineering design
Turkey Creek could have been and should have been designed for better pedestrian access. Bizgrrl wrote about it as others have. It needs a complete review. The crosswalks need to be bolder and the signage (and lack of signage) for pedestrians needs to be improved.
The turning radius's are too tight and the parking places are too small.
But the asshole behavior of the people? I hadn't thought about it but maybe it is because of the turning radius's and small parking places. But they might be assholes anyway.
Turkey Creek is not alone is less than great design. Have you parked in any of the new parking garages downtown? To save money, i.e. create more parking spaces, the spaces and turning radius's are so small and tight that it is also an unpleasant experience.
What has happened with civil engineering? At a time when automobiles, particularly SUV's, have gotten bigger the parking spaces have gotten smaller. What is up with that?
But the asshole behavior of
But the asshole behavior of the people? I hadn't thought about it but maybe it is because of the turning radius's and small parking places. But they might be assholes anyway.
Right. There's no guarantee that even in a well-designed shopping center, you still wouldn't be encountering snotty drivers.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
Have you parked in any of
Have you parked in any of the new parking garages downtown? To save money, i.e. create more parking spaces, the spaces and turning radius's are so small and tight that it is also an unpleasant experience.
Gee, I park in the Locust Street Garage about 3 times a week with absolutely no problem. But then I don't drive a big honking SUV either.
However, I do see a lot of SUVs parked in there, and most seem to have no problem. And the turning radii would be just fine if people weren't trying to drive through a parking garage at 30 m.p.h.
When I was at the
When I was at the City-County building recently I parked at the closest garage, don't know the name, right behind the old Andrew Johnson (?) hotel/office building, I found it very tight at the turns for driving through the garage. I don't have an SUV but it is a pretty good sized cross-over wagon. I drove very slow to ensure no damage to my car. No different than when driving through Turkey Creek though. At Turkey Creek I drive slow to avoid cars, whereas in the parking garage I drive slow to avoid concrete walls.
I will say the Knoxville/Knox County City-County building is not parking/pedistrian friendly for the elderly or not so healthy persons (without handicap stickers).
I know what you mean...
When I was at the City-County building recently I parked at the closest garage, don't know the name, right behind the old Andrew Johnson (?) hotel/office building, I found it very tight at the turns for driving through the garage. I don't have an SUV but it is a pretty good sized cross-over wagon. I drove very slow to ensure no damage to my car.
Is that the garage across from the Dwight Kessel garage? I parked there one time and it will be the last time. There is paint on the walls where cars have scratched by. I have an average size sedan.
My best keep secret for a surface lot with decent sized spaces is the one behind the Walnut building.
This is one of the main reasons I do not go downtown. Pain in the rear parking. This is one reason why people like the Old City. You can get a parking place.
This is apparently uncommon sense. Make it easy for customers to do business with you. The ROI is lousy when there are no customers.
This may sound crazy, but I
This may sound crazy, but I would like to see Gay street turned into strictly a pedestrian street, utilizing horse and buggies and also, as djuggler mentioned above, ole' timey buses to shuttle shoppers from one end to the other. I think it would make downtown Knoxville rather unique.
Adrift in the Sea of Humility
Not crazy
I've been thinking the same thing lately. Wherever this has been tried, it's usually served to draw in throngs of people. Although the technique isn't that common in the US yet, practically every podunk little town in Europe has a pedestrian-only zone, and these zones draw people in huge numbers.
Eventually, I also think we should turn the Gay Street Bridge into a pedestrian-only link between downtown and the South Waterfront; just look at the huge numbers of people using the (larger) pedestrian bridge linking downtown Chattanooga to North 'Nooga; great gobs of people are using it every day of the year.
At some point, the engineers will tell us that the Gay Street Bridge will be unsuitable for vehicular traffic and can't be repaired within economic reason. What better way to preserve it than to recast it as a link between a pedestrian zone downtown and a revitalized waterfront?
We really should give Chattanooga a run for its money in the revitalization department.
--Socialist With A Gold Card
"I'm a socialist with a gold card. I firmly believe we need a revolution; I'm just concerned that I won't be able to get good moisturizer afterwards." -- Brett Butler
We really should give
We really should give Chattanooga a run for its money in the revitalization department.
Ambitious and perhaps unrealistic goal. Downtown Knoxville is unique in many respects. Hilly, rocky, one way streets, excessive slope, not the same as Chattanooga. Are you willing to contribute in higher taxes, parking, and user fees?
I have serious doubts on your idea of closing the Gay Street Bridge to automobile traffic. I doubt anyone would ever approve that idea. I think it is a bad idea.
Not that unique
It would cost next to nothing to close Gay Street (with cross traffic remaining at Main and Cumberland). It would cost next to nothing to reduce the Gay Street Bridge's load from vehicular to pedestrian use. It'd certainly be a lot cheaper than trying to maintain a 100-year-old bridge that was only given a minor facelift the last time around. The repair bills on that bridge will come due in a few more years; so, do you want to pay the bajillions necessary to demolish and rebuild it, or would you rather pay the pittance needed to shore it up for mere foot traffic?
To state that such a goal is unrealistic or expensive flies in the face of (hillier) Chattanooga's experience with an even larger 100-year-old bridge, linking two revitalized neighborhoods. I'd invite you to travel south 100 miles some pretty day this spring and see it for yourself.
I find it ironic that Chattanooga's revitalization plan was crafted largely by Stroud Watson, a professor in the School of Architecture at UT Knoxville. We have the expertise in our own back yard to accomplish here what has been done by our southern neighbor, yet contrarians and business-as-usual sprawlists have managed to squelch one of the few enlightened voices in this town.
--Socialist With A Gold Card
"I'm a socialist with a gold card. I firmly believe we need a revolution; I'm just concerned that I won't be able to get good moisturizer afterwards." -- Brett Butler
Expertise does not pay the
Expertise does not pay the bills my socialist friend. How about it folks, who likes this idea?
Curiosity
I'm just curious as to why you think such an idea would be expensive; in Chattanooga's case, the conversion of the bridge to pedestrian use turned out to be a lot cheaper than demolishing it (which is why the idea was adopted in the first place).
Specifically, how could the closure of Gay Street and the Gay Street Bridge possibly be more expensive than maintaining both the street and the bridge for continued vehicular loads?
Please do enlighten me.
--Socialist With A Gold Card
"I'm a socialist with a gold card. I firmly believe we need a revolution; I'm just concerned that I won't be able to get good moisturizer afterwards." -- Brett Butler
It's about the South Knox Waterfront...
Specifically, how could the closure of Gay Street and the Gay Street Bridge possibly be more expensive than maintaining both the street and the bridge for continued vehicular loads?
I wasn't thinking about the maintenance costs of the bridge I was thinking about the marketing of the South Knox Waterfront. To cut off a direct access point and require traffic to route over the new bridge could alter the marketing of the proposed condos affecting the breakeven of the project. So the result could have serious repercussions.
In the South Knox Waterfront plan there is a pedestrian bridge proposed. It is pricey and is over towards the football stadium but it is in the plan.
I don't think Dave Hill would ever consider closing the bridge. Too much at stake.
Topic summary: Farragut is
Topic summary: Farragut is annoying.
Rebuilding Gay St bridge
Socialist, you're about a decade late with your sugestion. The Gay St. bridge just had a major overhaul and reopened about a year ago.
Yes Mamaw, but that was only
Yes Mamaw, but that was only a repair of the structural plates under the road surface. The girders, trusses, and pylons underneath it all weren't repaired and were left for another day. The ?$16 million? (I don't remember the exact dollar amount, but that rings a bell) spent on that renovation is peanuts compared to the repair work that'll come due in another 10 years or so.
The Walnut Street Bridge in 'Nooga cost $4 million to convert to pedestrian-only use, and that included resurfacing its half-mile length in hardwood boards.
--Socialist With A Gold Card
"I'm a socialist with a gold card. I firmly believe we need a revolution; I'm just concerned that I won't be able to get good moisturizer afterwards." -- Brett Butler
The girders, trusses, and
The girders, trusses, and pylons underneath it all weren't repaired and were left for another day. The ?$16 million? (I don't remember the exact dollar amount, but that rings a bell) spent on that renovation is peanuts compared to the repair work that'll come due in another 10 years or so.
Interesting. Should that be included in the South Knox Waterfront project? You ask an intriguing question.
topic summary?
topic summary? community design is more important than throwing in unwalkable, but "pretty" strip shopping centers with slabs of asphalt, and lessons can be learned from projects like Gerber village.
What has happened with civil
What has happened with civil engineering?
As a civil engineer, I will admit we are a service industry like many others. We must please the ones paying the bills. (owners, developers) Minimize cost is the mantra. Squeak by the regulations. Yes, we have an obligation to hold public safety paramount, beyond that you serve your client.
Is it too late? Maybe some
Is it too late? Maybe some influence can be put on the project to enhance it, e.g. pedestrian friendly, park-like setting changes within the exisitng parking lots and roadways. Could they (should they) build townhome type condos in the midst of the shopping areas?
What has happened with civil engineering?
Money, return on investment...
Los Angeles has it right
I shopped at a place in Los Angeles that was fantastic. It combined shopping with entertainment as a Disney like experience. The parking circled the complex which was all outdoors but instead of the "strip mall" facing out toward the parking, it faced inward. Shuttles ran from the parking area to the complex and if you didn't want to walk from one end of the complex to another you could just as easily take a shuttle. There were restaurants and bars and a movie theatre that dwarfed anything Knoxville has. There were sidewalk vendors and street performers. Miniature golf was nestled between exclusive jewelry sales. The complex was decored in theme complete with fountains and resting areas.
The shops provided a pickup service so that you could buy things then go on about your day without the burden of packages or having to run out to your vehicle.
You could easily come to this shopping complex in the morning and not return to your car until late in the evening without feeling like you were trapped or lacking for anything.
This is how shopping should be done. This is how Turkey Creek could have been done. The Belks/Borders part came closes close in concept but a long distance from realization. At least they connected to the greenways trail.
Thank you for your post. I have voiced the same complaint and lack of forethought by the architects.
djuggler beat me to it
"The Belks/Borders part came closes close in concept but a long distance from realization."
Yep, I really like that part. My brother and I wound up walking around it one night and enjoyed it.
The Target/Wal-Mart part isn't walking-friendly. In part that's because it's servicing big stores that need acres of parking, but they could have done a better job with the crosswalks. The little islands of shops and restaurants - Mangia, the Verizon Store, McCallisters, etc. - feel really cut off from the main stores.
www.lesjones.com
I shopped at a place in Los
I shopped at a place in Los Angeles that was fantastic. It combined shopping with entertainment as a Disney like experience. The parking circled the complex which was all outdoors but instead of the "strip mall" facing out toward the parking, it faced inward. Shuttles ran from the parking area to the complex and if you didn't want to walk from one end of the complex to another you could just as easily take a shuttle.
I hate to break the news to you, but I think you 'were' in Disneyland!
Adrift in the Sea of Humility
Not Disney - Spectrum Center
"I hate to break the news to you, but I think you 'were' in Disneyland!"
Ah! I finally found it. The complex I reference is the Irvine Spectrum Center. It's done right. And this is absolutely how Turkey Creek should have been developed.