Thu
Dec 19 2013
10:55 pm
New York bans styrofoam
By: michael kaplan

(link...)

In his State of the City address this year, Mayor Bloomberg said the plastic-foam containers were virtually impossible to recycle, and environmentalists have long complained that the foam cups, trays and containers, stained by beverages, grease and food, were needlessly clogging landfills.

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Factchecker's picture

Rant time

Submitted by Factchecker on Thu, 2013/12/19 - 11:59pm.

Great start. Aside from polystyrene, which does have some nice properties, I'm starting to think that all plastic is a bigger problem than we could have ever imagined. Have you noticed how much is everywhere? Where does it come from and where does it end up? How could it ever be sustainable? Then again, what are the alternatives?

I now can't believe the paper vs. plastic debate had legs at all, let alone never ended with a clear winner/loser. Does anyone believe that paper is not a slam dunk environmental winner over plastic?

Still, styrofoam food containers are a deal killer for me.

michael kaplan's picture

Does anyone believe that

Submitted by michael kaplan on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 12:11am.
(in reply to Factchecker)

Does anyone believe that paper is not a slam dunk environmental winner over plastic?

when you drive through the fog caused by the paper mill in calhoun, or breathe the air generated by it, you have to wonder ...

i kind of like reusable glass or enamel ware for food storage.

bizgrrl's picture

Plastics! For a while

Submitted by bizgrrl on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 5:04am.

Plastics!

For a while restaurants were big on not using styrofoam or plastic. Guess that was a fad?

I have not yet gotten into the habit of bringing my own bags when grocery shopping. I'm trying. Do they even have paper at the grocer any more?

michael kaplan's picture

One of the things I like best

Submitted by michael kaplan on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 8:55pm.
(in reply to bizgrrl)

One of the things I like best about Pete's is that he still uses restaurant china. And one of the things I like least about Panera is that they switched to plastic ...

Factchecker's picture

I agree. I thought many fast

Submitted by Factchecker on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 11:27pm.
(in reply to bizgrrl)

I agree. I thought many fast food restaurants backed off styro for a while. Now the arms race to use the most is definitely on. And stores love to put as few items in each plastic bag as they can. When all you buy is something like a rigid milk jug with an integrated handle, every time they'll stupidly bag it in a thin plastic bag with inconvenient straps. Some will say it's to keep pesky H2O condensate from touching anything (gawd forbid), but it's no different when it's something non-refrigerated like a jug of cooking oil. WTF?

Michael, I've got to think most of the pollution caused by paper plants could be vastly reduced if it needed to be. Greenhouse gases may be nearly impossible to extract, but other pollutants can generally be, if I'm not mistaken. Plastic manufacturing can't be much better. At least trees are renewable and generally carbon neutral until they're processed. And the waste is infinitely preferable.

michael kaplan's picture

just walked out of food coop

Submitted by michael kaplan on Sat, 2013/12/21 - 12:13am.
(in reply to Factchecker)

just walked out of food coop tonight with a jug of milk in no bag whatsoever. the jug was plastic, though -- wish it had been waxed paper or ... glass. remember those?

another gross offender is the orange juice industry moving away from paper to those plastic designer carafes ...

michael kaplan's picture

good points. didn't realize

Submitted by michael kaplan on Sat, 2013/12/21 - 10:04am.
(in reply to Factchecker)

good points. didn't realize that was plastic, not wax. and those spouts from hell: i remember when flav-o-rich went over to them, i photographed both varieties side by side. i've been squeezing orange juice for a while, but you're right, there's the cost of transporting oranges distances.

Mike Knapp's picture

Spot on move, major problem in the oceans; more needs to be done

Submitted by Mike Knapp on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 9:29am.

This is great news as a first baby step. We study this problem in marine ecology where it is seen as an issue for planktivores ingesting plastics and such leading to various physio effects like GI blockage, reproductive problems, messed up steroid hormone levels etc. The North American Atlantic seaboard has a relatively high concentration of coastal plastics.
Anther disturbing large scale phenomenon is the accumulation of plastics in the 5 major oceanic gyres. Seawater can make it small enough for microscopic organisms to uptake which leads to all types of foodweb repercussions. A "plastic soup" is the ocean... One research question is how to make biodegradable plastics which still has a little way to go...

Here are a couple few decent links on the issue
NOAA's marine debris site

NatGeo

5 Gyres

and for gits n shiggles from the house files
paper from NCBI on Biodegradability of Plastics

Mother Jones article on biodegradable plastics

Mike Knapp's picture

scared... but the market can fix it

Submitted by Mike Knapp on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 10:52am.
(in reply to metulj)

Save The Earth: Become A Capitalist
"Property Rights Prevent Overuse and Pollution
The fact is that pollution is often the product of weak property rights. When nobody owns it, no one takes care of it. This concept dates back to times before the industrial revolution when grazing lands were public and, consequently, farmers and livestock owners allowed their animals to overgraze simply because there was no incentive not to. Only when lands were enclosed and property rights established did people start rotational feeding and other techniques to conserve the land. Parallels can be found in public lakes (overfishing), public roads (traffic jams from volume, irregular maintenance) and many other situations."

Stick's picture

FTFY

Submitted by Stick on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 10:55am.
(in reply to Mike Knapp)

Only when lands were enclosed and property rights established were rural populations forced into urban slums to work for slave wages in unsafe conditions.

ArtWagner's picture

Malarkey

Submitted by ArtWagner on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 11:27am.
(in reply to Mike Knapp)

History is full of incidences that totally dispute what you are claiming. Try checking with the 1930s landowners in the Oklahoma panhandle. Property rights, my eye.

Mike Knapp's picture

sorry, that was sarcasm

Submitted by Mike Knapp on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 12:59pm.

woops... I'm sorta new here. Insert sartalics in that free market comment

Stick's picture

Cool... I was struggling to

Submitted by Stick on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 1:48pm.
(in reply to Mike Knapp)

Cool... I was struggling to reconcile your two comments in this thread. Also, really dig the festive Darth Vader.

CE Petro's picture

I also struggle with bringing

Submitted by CE Petro on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 5:14pm.

I also struggle with bringing my own bags to the grocery. I use my reusable bags then forget to put them back into the car. One day, it will be more habit than forgetfulness.

As I was just reading this article I thought I'd share. Here's a little story on what a simple plastic sandwich bag can do.

Factchecker's picture

When shopping, the box rocks

Submitted by Factchecker on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 11:10pm.
(in reply to CE Petro)

I often forget to take bags in from the car or forget to put the empties back in the car. What I love about 3 Rivers and Earthfare, though, is that they provide used stock boxes (cardboard) that make excellent rigid containers for your groceries. No more fighting with limp bags. Until recently I had been keeping the same used box in the car and I reused it for months. Somehow I put it aside and haven't used it lately, for some reason. (Note to self to find me one again.)

Pam Strickland's picture

Thanks for the reminder CE

Submitted by Pam Strickland on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 8:33pm.

Thanks for the reminder CE Petro. I have several reusable bags, but like you I tend to forget to put them back in the car after I bring the groceries in. At least I have enough that when I do remember it means I can make two or three trips to the store before there are no more bags in the car.

Factchecker's picture

Midway Atoll bird holocaust

Submitted by Factchecker on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 11:01pm.

This is what our "blessed way of life" in plastics is doing to the world.

Factchecker's picture

The CRT glass problem and a cool solution

Submitted by Factchecker on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 11:37pm.

Sort of off topic, but this looks like a nice enviro problem solver. h/t Slate.

redmondkr's picture

Cardboard, and make it from

Submitted by redmondkr on Fri, 2013/12/20 - 11:40pm.

Cardboard, and make it from hemp?

bizgrrl's picture

It drives me crazy how some

Submitted by bizgrrl on Sat, 2013/12/21 - 5:59am.

It drives me crazy how some people bag groceries, one item per bag or putting toilet paper, paper towels, etc. in a bag. Although, for the price of groceries these days, I'm not willing to bag them myself.

Ok, I have my cloth bags ready for grocery shopping today.

redmondkr's picture

Beijing has introduced a

Submitted by redmondkr on Sat, 2013/12/21 - 9:17pm.

Beijing has introduced a program by which subway riders may pay with recyclable plastic bottles.

Interesting that this would come from a city in which people can barely see their hands in front of their faces.

This image from Political Loudmouth on Facebook.

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