Thu
Aug 31 2006
10:08 am

Check out our new election season "Heart of the Matter" feature at WBIR.com:

(link...)

rikki's picture

nifty feature

That's an interesting feature, and it will be fun to see future installments.

I haven't seen the ad in question, but does Ford really claim biodiesel can completely replace petrodiesel? That's an extreme standard to impose. If he actually makes that claim, fine. If not, the oversimplification is on your part. The U.S. does produce a lot of oil, so it's not necessary to completely replace petroleum supplies to achieve energy independence.

Also, I don't think you have fully captured the subsidies the oil industry enjoys. You mention that the federal government uses some biodiesel, but it also uses immense amounts of petroleum fuels, particularly in the military. Oil reserves were major factors in our decisions to go to war in both Iraq and Vietnam, so some portion of those military expenditures should count as indirect subsidies of the oil economy. Then there's road building. Some argue that growth policies favor sprawling development, which increases demand for oil, though that's more of a local issue than a federal issue.

kag's picture

Excellent points, Rikki. As

Excellent points, Rikki.

As far as the breadth of his claim in the ad, he says soybeans are - direct quote - "our ticket to energy freedom."

That's a bold claim.

R. Neal's picture

Not to criticize Ford, who

Not to criticize Ford, who is looking for votes wherever he can find them including agri-business and rural/farming communities, but does anyone else find it bizarre that we are looking at such primitive and inefficient solutions to our energy problems?

Essentially, bio-diesel is a roundabout way to capture energy from the sun. We plow the fields (with petroleum driven tractors). We plant the beans. We fertilize them (with petroleum based products). We harvest them (using our petroleum driven tractors again). We process them, using more energy. We transport the fuel (using more petroleum based transportation). Etc. Etc. We are exploiting DNA and cellular activity of a plant to accomplish some ancient and primitive (yet not understood to us) molecular biology. Soybean DNA is smarter than we are.

Seems like we ought to be focusing more on converting that solar energy directly into something usable, such as electricity, or storable, such as using it to extract hydrogen from water.

Or better yet get the Star Trek geeks to put down their phasers and Gameboys long enough to tackle cold fusion. Without turning the planet into anti-matter, of course.

rikki's picture

good points

And let's not forget the most effective and most democratic technology for addressing energy dependence: conservation.

Socialist With A Gold Card's picture

Does anyone else find it

Does anyone else find it bizarre that we are looking at such primitive and inefficient solutions to our energy problems?

Sure it's bizarre, but look at what happens to politicians who advocate sensible energy research (namely, Al Gore and Jimmy Carter): they get ridiculed as tree-hugging hippies.

Our best hope of breaking our dependence on hydrocarbons is fusion energy (the hot kind, not the cold kind). We're still a long way from a workable fusion reactor, due in part to the very low level of research money the US puts into it. We lag far behind the rest of the world in fusion research, and that's holding the science back globally (the US spends more on basic science than any other country). The saddest part is that, if the Republican Congress hadn't pulled the US out of ITER (the international effort to build a working fusion reactor) in 1998 over the objections of the Clinton administration, we'd be at least somewhat closer to petroleum independence today. We sort of rejoined ITER a couple of years ago with a commitment of a piddly amount of money, but that was after six wasted years when we could have been participating. Workable fusion is still a long way off (ITER estimates commercial availability in 2045), but we should have been closer to it than we are now.

Merely finding more creative ways to pump greenhouse gases into the atmosphere doesn't seem like much of an energy policy to me.

Other renewables (such as solar, wind, geothermal, and tides) could provide 25% or so of our total energy needs, and those technologies already exist. They just need to be produced on a large enough scale that manufacturing efficiencies could kick in and bring the costs down. Tax breaks, federal startup grants, and research dollars could help that effort along. However, that would take actual leadership, and it would take someone with the spine to tell the oil industry to take a flying leap. I don't see many politicians (of either stripe) willing to do that.

--Socialist With A Gold Card


"I'm a socialist with a gold card. I firmly believe we need a revolution; I'm just concerned that I won't be able to get good moisturizer afterwards." --Brett Butler

 

Number9's picture

As far as the breadth of his

As far as the breadth of his claim in the ad, he says soybeans are - direct quote - "our ticket to energy freedom."

Where will these soybeans be grown? In the new Midway Industrial Park? That may not be a bad idea, after the Midway Industrial Park fails ten years from now we can grow the soybeans hydroponically in the deserted buildings. Genius.

smalc's picture

not unlike TVA's claim that

not unlike TVA's claim that at their current rate of green power expansion they will replace coal in something like 200 years.  Sure, and we will covered in a sea of solar panels and a forest of windmills.

Factchecker's picture

Gosh! I think I agree with

Gosh!  I think I agree with Les, as well as SKB.  Even the first hybrid, the Insight, was pretty decent, and they've come a long way in a short time.  And they've still just scratched the surface.  Seen this oneTongue out

I've cooled off the biodiesel kick.  It either uses waste product like french fry grease, which is fine but wouldn't really go very far and which already has other uses in industry--forcing current grease buyers to buy virgin product, or it uses petroleum-heavy agriculture processes and land, as SKB well noted.  And diesels of all kind, even the upcoming pretty cool Bluetecs, are dirty relative to the cleanest hybrids.  Biodiesel fills a nice temporary niche, but is no big step toward making us energy independent, IMO.

Ethanol from corn (and hydrogen too), I fear, are more false solutions.  Corn has the same problem as soybeans for biodiesel.  Hydrogen has huge hurdles, including the inability to be piped or distributed, because it's too light.  And no one knows how it could be made.  It can be thought of as a storage medium, little more--not a solution.  Corn is an all around big industry scam.  IMO.

Cellulostic ethanol is another story.  If some minor breakthroughs could be made in the conversion of fast-growing junk weeds like switchgrass to ethanol, then ethanol would not have to be petrol or land intensive.  The CO2 emitted when burned would be balanced by its absorption in thecarbon cycle.  Even Bush's SOTU speechwriter was right about that.  (IMO.)  CBT and I might even be in agreement there!

Number9's picture

Ethanol from corn (and

Ethanol from corn (and hydrogen too), I fear, are more false solutions. Corn has the same problem as soybeans for biodiesel. Hydrogen has huge hurdles, including the inability to be piped or distributed, because it's too light. And no one knows how it could be made. It can be thought of as a storage medium, little more--not a solution. Corn is an all around big industry scam. IMO.

Cellulostic ethanol is another story. If some minor breakthroughs could be made in the conversion of fast-growing junk weeds like switchgrass to ethanol, then ethanol would not have to be petrol or land intensive. The CO2 emitted when burned would be balanced by its absorption in thecarbon cycle. Even Bush's SOTU speechwriter was right about that. (IMO.) CBT and I might even be in agreement there!

The electric Lotus will change many minds. Get the price point down and you will see many of them.

Of all the crop based energy solutions switchgrass has the best yield. Corn is not the answer. Staley in Loudon County is one of the worst air polluters in Tennessee. What is the point of ethanol if it causes more pollution than it solves?

smalc's picture

Staley in Loudon County is

Staley in Loudon County is one of the worst air polluters in Tennessee.

And stinks up the entire city of Loudon. I don't see how people live within 5 miles of the plant. Ah, the smell of fermenting corn in the morning.

Les Jones's picture

Rikki:

Agreed. Biodiesel and ethanol have their place, but they're niche energy products. The net energy yield is low, and there are very real limits on how much you can scale them up.

I have hope for hybrids. It's still a young technology with room for dramatic improvements.

I'm also hoping that material science will help with fuel efficiency. It isn't hard to imagine new materials that could dramatically decrease vehicle weight.


Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)

Matt's picture

Transition

Everyone is harping on the whole bio-diesel thing, but the first step in energy independence requires a transitional phase. If its going to take until 2045 to build a fusion reactor, we need something that burns cleaner and could be made readily available in a rich agricultural nation like the US.

In the short term soy beans, corn, and sugar cane can all the used to produce fuel. Also, it could create hundreds of thousands of jobs. The US has plenty of empty land that would be perfect for growing our way to energy independence.

Of course the major problem with this is drought, famine, and global warming. If we go a few years without a good crop, energy prices would be skyrocketing.

Knoxquerious's picture

Up yours buddy

The first step in reducing our need for forign oil should go like this...

America: "Hey, Middle East."

Middle East: "Yea, what's up man."

America: (extending middle finger) "Hey, right here buddy! Why don't you shove it!"

Middle East: "Huh?"

Then we have no choice but to move on to our next step. Easy, right?

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Knox TN Today

Local TV News

News Sentinel

    State News

    Wire Reports

    Lost Medicaid Funding

    To date, the failure to expand Medicaid/TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding. (Source)

    Search and Archives