Mon
Nov 17 2008
01:54 pm

David Oatney:

One of the reasons that our bishops are so troubled by the outcome of the presidential election is that this country has elected a candidate whose social positions are not only opposite the Church, but whose very mentality about those issues places him at enmity with the Church herself. There is little doubt that Mr. Obama's election is the greatest singular evil that has ever befallen this country - but the die is cast.

Wow!

92
like
lovable liberal's picture

Sorry, my atheism is showing

I guess it's not news that some of the religious whack jobs are not Protestant. I don't know whether it's good or bad news, though.

No matter how much some people wish for the End Times, the prophecy is not coming true this time any more than the last few hundred times ardent and misguided believers have yearned for it. It's myth and transparently ridiculous.

Liberty and justice for all.

My home

metulj's picture

There is no wackier bunch

There is no wackier bunch than Right-wing Catholics. I have family members who want to roll back Vatican II and think the current pope is a liberal.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

MDB's picture

A friend used to be in a

A friend used to be in a group that believed like that.

While he is still a very conservative, very devout Catholic, he has left the group, and now considers them to be a Roman Catholic cult. (I don't think it was Opus Dei, but I could be wrong.)

For what its worth, another friend and I once sang Tom Lehrer's immortal "Vatican Rag" for him. He had never heard it before, and cracked up. I looked at him and said, "you're going to have to go to confession for this, aren't you?"

He responded, "yeah, but it'll be worth it."

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

Bbeanster's picture

Who is David Oatney?

Who is David Oatney?

KC's picture

the Church, but whose very

the Church, but whose very mentality about those issues places him at enmity with the Church herself.

As a Protestant Christian, I guess I am at "enmity with the church herself."

What ought to "trouble" the bishops is how not to drive away any more of the Church's members who have not already left due to the bishops' failure to stop those 5,000 or so priests from molesting those 12,000 or more children.

If 56% of Catholics voted for Sen. Obama, does the church really want to drive them away as well? If it does, it might want to think about asking the government for a bailout, or get ready to close some more churches.

metulj's picture

"What ought to "trouble" the

"What ought to "trouble" the bishops is how not to drive away any more of the Church's members who have not already left due to the bishops' failure to stop those 5,000 or so priests from molesting those 12,000 or more children."

Yes and men in power in Protestant churches don't use that power against children, ever.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

KC's picture

Yes and men in power in

Yes and men in power in Protestant churches don't use that power against children, ever.

You're right. It does go on, but there is a difference. Whereas the Southern Baptist Convention does try to be authoritarian, the SBC churches do as they please.

And there has been a rejection by the SBC to institute a convention wide computer screening to screen against child predators. That should be changed, and a convention wide system should be used, so that ministers cannot simply "move on" to other churches, as they do now.

The Catholic church seems to be different in that it seems highly authoritarian and tightly managed from the top down. And it's that church authority that failed to investigate and try to stop the abuses that went on and shares a good deal of the blame.

MDB's picture

Warning: Possible Blasphemy

I take no responsiblity if you are struck by lightning while reading this.

If 56% of Catholics voted for Sen. Obama, does the church really want to drive them away as well? If it does, it might want to think about asking the government for a bailout, or get ready to close some more churches.

They just need advertising. Picture a priest with an attention-getting eyepatch (that switches eyes from commercial to commercial) -- "Its Soul-a-thon, our Semi-Annual Salvation Spectacular! The Arch-Bishop is in Rome, and we're dealin' there's nooooooo tomorrow! We've cut penance down 70%! 80%! 90%! Coveted thy neighbor's wife? Come to confession before Friday and you can get off with only one Hail Mary! Expecting a mortal sin sometime soon? Don't worry about it! For the next week only, you can ignore one Commandment! With every baptism, we'll throw in a free set of rosary beads! You can't miss deals like these!"

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

gonzone's picture

Got it covered

Let's do this kathy-lick promo dudes!
Crazy right wing kathy-licks coming out of the woods!
None of my friends, who are actual practicing Christian Catholics, ever espouse such hatred and nonsense as these fools in the provided links.
So, here's to the nuts!:

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson

MDB's picture

Harold Hill? Is that you?

Let's do this kathy-lick promo dudes!
Crazy right wing kathy-licks coming out of the woods!
None of my friends, who are actual practicing Christian Catholics, ever espouse such hatred and nonsense as these fools in the provided links.

Why do I expect that to be followed up by a stirring rendition of "Trouble in River City"?

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

MDB's picture

Let's see if I get this straight

Which of these is the bigger evil:

  1. The election of Barack Obama
  2. The fact that, 160 years ago, my ancestors could have owned Obama's ancestors

Apparently, the blogger quoted picks "A". Wowzers.

If that.... individual.... wants to disagree with Obama, fine, more power to him. But great googledy moogledy, he needs to turn down the hyperbole a notch or twenty.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

metulj's picture

Reminder: Slavery has been

Reminder: Slavery has been grounds for excommunication ipso facto since the 15th Century in Catholic doctrine. Pope Eugene, IIRC my church history.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

MDB's picture

Fair enough, but the

Fair enough, but the overwrought blogger referred to American evil, not church history.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

scottfrith's picture

This is nonsense. Catholic

This is nonsense. Catholic social teaching also warns against Capital Punishment; however, you never heard this kind of rhetoric in 2001 when President Bush took office -- how many executions did Governor Bush preside over in Texas?

No political party fully represents Catholic teachings on social issues. This kind of overheated rhetoric doesn't represent my Catholic faith. It's disappointing.

metulj's picture

"No political party fully

"No political party fully represents Catholic teachings on social issues."

Ding. Ding. Ding.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Rachel's picture

I never want to hear anyone

I never want to hear anyone mention Bush Derangement Syndrome again.

Nobody's picture

I do enjoy seeing the hatred

I do enjoy seeing the hatred for religion and the inherent bias and bigotry come out on a liberal website. Denouncing the Catholic Church, referring to Christians who are Protestant as "whack jobs," and of course mocking their religious texts and what is in them versus just saying that it is not applicable to a particular scenario is all out in the open now. So refreshing after watching the hypocrisy of this election and how liberals somehow were religious too.

I would not call Obama's election "evil." I would also choose a better method of addressing those who say such things instead of the stereotyping done here but please, do continue so that the whole world can continue to see the real colors underneath the liberal mask of alleged religious tolerance. It must be a liberating experience for liberals to know that they do not have to hide their raw hatred for those of a religious nature anymore now that your own Messiah has been delivered to the Office of the President.

metulj's picture

Wow. I've never encountered

Wow. I've never encountered someone who enjoys religious bigotry.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Nobody's picture

No, I just enjoy seeing the

No, I just enjoy seeing the liberal horde show its true colors instead of hiding behind the hypocrisy we have seen from all of you for months now when it comes to religion.

lovable liberal's picture

Learn to read, Nobody. I

Learn to read, Nobody.

I didn't say that all Protestants are whack jobs, only that some whack job Christians are not Protestant. Got it? Some unspecified number of Protestants are whack jobs. There are other whack jobs, too.

Even if I said that most of the Christian whack jobs mentioned in the press are Protestant, which is true, that wouldn't label all Protestants or all Christians as whack jobs, which they aren't.

Liberty and justice for all.

My home

Nobody's picture

Yeah, spare me your line.

Yeah, spare me your line. The only thing here is how refreshing it is to see the bigotry coming out in full form, yet again, after it has been suppressed for so long. It lets the world see a liberal for what they really are and allows for your true colors to be in full bloom. Just like you liberal mouths want to rant about things that conservatives need to own up to (and you're right about that) why you and the horde can't be honest and just admit how much you hate religion in general and Christianity in particular is a puzzle. Otherwise, the hypocrisy is just too much and just as conservatives tried to change who they were and made a mess it will be nice to see the ugly bigotry come out soon from the horde so we can all know that none of you have changed.

metulj's picture

Could you spare us your line

Could you spare us your line as well. K. Thx.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Rachel's picture

Otherwise, the hypocrisy is

Otherwise, the hypocrisy is just too much and just as conservatives tried to change who they were and made a mess it will be nice to see the ugly bigotry come out soon from the horde so we can all know that none of you have changed.

That sounds like it was written in Palinese.

Joseph Bailey's picture

No, I have been saying that

No, I have been saying that long before 2008, so there's no "Palinese" going on here but for a bunch of liberal do-gooders on here, every last one of you know more about Palin and her doings than I or other conservatives do. All one has to do is come here to check out the latest on Palin.

I am wondering though how all of the Messiah's supporters feel about him possibly picking the Hildabeast for his Sec of State-assuming she could get confirmed. I mean, so much for change huh? Well, if he does and she is confirmed it will ruin his Presidency and make it so much easier to win in 2010 and 2012. Otherwise, to my surprise, your savior O seems to be off to a good start regarding the transition and rumors have it that he will keep Gates as Def Sec, maybe offer McCain a position or Ambassadorship and I do enjoy seeing him tap top Bush officials on terrorism for his national security team. Hmm, I guess we are going to get four more of some of it for our national security and that I can live with too. I mean, dealing with SEC is a different issue but bringing on top Bush security officials, imagine that.

metulj's picture

Would it be better if we

Would it be better if we were liberal "do-badders?" Since we are "do-gooders," then it seems that we are the ones who are on the right path. Good is better than bad? Right?

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

MDB's picture

Wow, good point!

You're right!

If liberals are "do-gooders", conservatives are "do-badders".

We're Superman, they're Lex Luthor.
We're Luke Skywalker, they're Emperor Palpatine.
We're Batman, they're the Joker.

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

Rachel's picture

That's a pretty spectacular

That's a pretty spectacular misreading of what I meant by "Palinese." Downright Palinesque, it was.

lovable liberal's picture

You're so incensed you have

You're so incensed you have to argue against things no one said. Now it's clear it's not your reading comprehension that's at fault. You want to spout BS. You're the one offering a line.

I'm not religious, but I don't hate religion even if you think I do. It's pretty clear you live in a world of make believe anyway. Too bad it's such a sour world for you.

Liberty and justice for all.

My home

R. Neal's picture

U.S. Rep. Paul Broun,

U.S. Rep. Paul Broun, R-Crazy | Jay Bookman

"It may sound a bit crazy and off base, but the thing is, he’s the one who proposed this national security force. I’m just trying to bring attention to the fact that we may — may not, I hope not — but we may have a problem with that type of philosophy of radical socialism or Marxism. That’s exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany and it’s exactly what the Soviet Union did. When he’s proposing to have a national security force that’s answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he’s showing me signs of being Marxist.”

R. Neal's picture

SC priest: No communion for

SC priest: No communion for Obama supporters - Yahoo! News

COLUMBIA, S.C. – A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him "constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil."

rikki's picture

touchdown Jesus

There is a lot of overheated talk on both sides. What this is really all about is the threat a college football playoff poses to Notre Dame's chances of ever again being National Champion.

metulj's picture

Clearly, Obama is an

Clearly, Obama is an anti-papist.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

SnM's picture

back to the topic

If Obama is the greatest singular evil, what's the greatest plural evil?

Moose?

metulj's picture

I am going with oxen. True

I am going with oxen.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

scottfrith's picture

LOL

LOL

gonzone's picture

my guesses

Mormons?

No, no! I know!
Scientologists?

OK, help me out here, can I get a life-line call?

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson

Rachel's picture

Palins.

Palins.

Carole Borges's picture

Your response, Rachel...

I loved the question, but when I read your answer I really had this small bubble of amusement burst in my brain. Chuckle, chuckle...

WhitesCreek's picture

Exactly!

Exactly!

jcgrim's picture

pre vatican II catholics

I was educated for 12 years at an all girl's school by nuns who seemed only to care about our virginity and ending abortion. Seems like every religion has it's proportion of rigid, narrow nutjobs and the pre-vatican II catholics, exemplified by Oatney, are no exception. The nonsense about priests telling us to vote only for anti-choice candidates is an example of the Church's medieval expectations of blind obedience from the flock.

I am continuously confused how they reconcile their pro-life position with the Bush doctrine of preemptive war, the destruction of millions of innocent civilians in Iraq and Afganistan, torture, disdain for the powerless and poor, especially in New Orleans after Katrina- all policies supported by republicans. Never did I hear of a bishop or priest say that a vote for a republican who supports these issues constituted a vote for evil.

Very disappointing. It's no wonder the Church is loosing thoughtful, caring Catholics.

Rachel's picture

Never did I hear of a bishop

Never did I hear of a bishop or priest say that a vote for a republican who supports these issues constituted a vote for evil.

Yup. You must repent for voting for a pro-choice candidate, but not for voting for a pro-death penalty candidate.

It's pretty freakin' inconsistent.

SteveMule's picture

In Oatney's defense ...

I have talked (via email) with David Oatney privately several times. First, he is a very, very devot traditional Roman Catholic. To the point that church teaching, dogma, tradition and, yes, authority, are the end and end all of religous discussion and debate. Like it or not, that's just who/what he is. Secondly, he is also a very staunch traditional conservative. And again, like it or not, that's just who/what he is. Everything he does, says and probably thinks, is done, said and probably thought thru those lenes.
Therefore, Catholic and conservative inconsistancies and failures simply either don't exist or are minor, temporary glitches. He is, I am afraid, very typical of all too many religous (Catholic and non-Catholic)conservatives.
Out here in the land where the deer and the antolope play I hear a lot of the same things that Oatney has said. They don't realize that pre-election rhetoric is just pre-elelction hot air. They really belive it is the gospel truth. The fact that %56 percent of American Catholics voted for Obama does not mean that he is wrong. No, he beleives what the church believes (at least he belives he does), so if he's wrong then the church is wrong and the church cannot be wrong so he's not wrong. Consequently, the fact that %56 of American Catholics voted for Obama means that %56 of American Catholics are in immeadiate danger of going to Hell. It's easier for him to believe that then it is that he just might be wrong. That's another inconsistancy you will never be able to get him to admit.
So, cut him some slack and God bless him, just let him say whatever the hell he wants, because he'll say it anyway.

Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!

SteveMule

lovable liberal's picture

Sorry, pointing out the fact

Sorry, pointing out the fact that Oatney is a rigidly doctrinaire traditional Catholic is not a defense. It's agreement.

Besides, I'm just a liberal who believes in free speech, so I just gotta be me, too. Where does that leave us?

Trying to figure out who makes sense relative to the world...

Liberty and justice for all.

My home

SteveMule's picture

Wrong

I wasn't agreeing with him. I don't agree with him; on either his Catholism or his conservative political beliefs. I was only saying where he comes from, so to speak. He's not nuts, just wrong.

Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!

SteveMule

lovable liberal's picture

Oops, my bad. Agreement

Oops, my bad. Agreement with Oatney's critics is what I meant, not agreement with him.

On the other hand, I'm confused why you'd want us to "cut him some slack and let him say what he wants," first because no one is attempting to shut him up, and secondly because you disagree with him, and I'd think you'd want the ability to make that known. I don't see the benefits of silence.

I tried previously, probably too elliptically, to make the point that I'm going to say what I want, too. The genius of the First Amendment is that Oatney and I both get our say, along with everyone else. Then, everyone has to figure out for themselves what makes sense. Some will succeed, some won't, but we will get to speak.

Liberty and justice for all.

My home

KC's picture

The problem with the Oatneys

The problem with the Oatneys of the country involvement in politics is that rather debating and discussing public policy, they simply claim that their policy positions have the authorization of God, and, thus, cannot be debated.

The other problem is that not only should their policy positions be debated, their theological positions upon which they base their polical stances should be debated.

A case in point is that when James Dobson made the claim that "Palin is God's answer." As a life-long Southern Baptist I was taught and raised, and I believe, that Jesus was and is God's answer. Period.

reform4's picture

You hit the nail on the head, Gary

The problem with the Oatneys of the country involvement in politics is that rather debating and discussing public policy, they simply claim that their policy positions have the authorization of God, and, thus, cannot be debated.

Bingo.

KC's picture

Seems like every religion

Seems like every religion has it's proportion of rigid, narrow nutjobs and the pre-vatican II catholics, exemplified by Oatney, are no exception. The nonsense about priests telling us to vote only for anti-choice candidates is an example of the Church's medieval expectations of blind obedience from the flock.

I don't really mind the fire and brimstone preachers who preach against individual sin and humbling yourself before God.

What I've found troubling over the last decade is the constant mixing of politics and faith, and what appears to be a doctrine that puts what goes on in the voting booth above what takes place in a person's home, and, indeed, his or her heart.

Living a Christ-like life is being seemingly substituted by voting for the "chosen" candidate and political activism.

As I said on another thread, Christ was crucified because he wouldn't get involved in politics or governing; at all.

He wanted power over a person's soul, not power over a person's government.

Joseph Bailey's picture

Good point. Pastors who do

Good point. Pastors who do preach that people need to repent and stay focused on their calling and not corrupting the work of God, have every right to tell anyone to get right with the Lord. However, as you correctly mentioned the mixing of religion and politics is not only sinful but violates our Constitution's prohibition against a Religious Test. Which while we do not have an official one we are doing it de facto the last two decades or so.

Up Goose Creek's picture

Socialism

The thing that puzzles me about the current turn of events is how so many republicans want to associate their party with Christianity while at the same time being pro capitalism and rabidly anti-socialist.

But according to Jesus' teachings: pooling of community resources, care for the poor, etc. are the way to live a godly life. Sounds like socialism if not communism to me.

____________________________________
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse."

Joseph Bailey's picture

Doesn't have anything to do

Doesn't have anything to do with socialism or communism because the State was not what Jesus was talking about. What he was talking about was how people need to care for other people as well as his other teaching that he was the Son of God, sent here to redeem us from us our sins. You left that one out.

gonzone's picture

Actually it did

Actually Jesus couldn't avoid it. The "church" was the instrument that the Roman empire used to rule the Israelis. So when Jesus said "woe unto you Pharisees and keepers of the law" he was directly addressing the governing body of his people and its corruption. God's ideal for His people was that no king ever rule them (they only needed him as their ruler)but the people insisted and got what they asked for, often to their regret.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson

Joseph Bailey's picture

It was not the "church" that

It was not the "church" that the Romans used to rule anything about Israel. Jesus was addressing the governing body of religious rulers, which unlike the USA of today, had no separation of religion and State. They were primarily religious in nature as the entire law was religious in nature as there was no difference between secular and religious law either. However, the church ruled nothing over the Jews as it did not exist yet when you are referencing Jesus talking to the Pharisees. Also, Jesus was commenting directly on how those in a leadership position within Judaism had corrupted the work and message of God to date, not whether or not the State would control one's life. Socialism did not exist then as Marx himself would tell you that it can only exist AFTER it progresses from capitalism and neither did they have capitalism either although they did have business and trade.

metulj's picture

"Socialism did not exist

"Socialism did not exist then as Marx himself would tell you that it can only exist AFTER it progresses from capitalism and neither did they have capitalism either although they did have business and trade."

I wish people who have obviously never read Marx would stop putting words into Marx's mouth.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Joseph Bailey's picture

Yeah, like you. So, go get

Yeah, like you. So, go get a copy of Das Capital or The Manifesto, or maybe read up on his biography. I am kind of sick of someone who does not squat about Marx on here writing about him too.

metulj's picture

I learned my Marx from this

I learned my Marx from this guy. And it is Kapital or Capital, in English. Not Das Capital, which is complete nonsense.

"I am kind of sick of someone who does not squat about Marx on here writing about him too."

Self-loathing is a sign of mental health problems. You should have that looked at.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Joseph Bailey's picture

That's grrrrrrrrrreat but

That's grrrrrrrrrreat but the last time I checked there was more than one Professor in this world who taught on Marx. I guess you were not aware of that though, huh?

Also, I continue to be relieved at knowing that the Editors of The Elements of Style and of its companion work, Grammar, reside here on this site. I mean, it is comforting to know that as one posts on the Internet, often while multitasking, that we can always rely on the readers here to grammar check it. Hey, instead of factcheck.org maybe you and the others here could start a grammarcheck.com. However, you are right that a substantial part of Das Kapital is complete nonsense. Well put but I do wonder, with Marx and his method of writing, do you think you could give it a check and find a way to put it into words that are not "nonsense?"

Up Goose Creek's picture

Nobody

Is "nobody" talking to me? Because I'm a pretty solid churchgoing Christian. Why would you think I hate myself and the people I worship with?

I think some people just enjoy feeling persecuted.

____________________________________
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse."

rikki's picture

Is "nobody" talking to

Is "nobody" talking to me?

Nobody is just a bot that hits KnoxViews once a day, picks a random thread and posts about how happy it is to see the liberal horde showing its true colors. It fails the Turing test.

redmondkr's picture

After my recent event I have

After my recent event I have instigated of a policy of completely ignoring the posts of the nobodies whose only purpose in life seems to be raising the blood pressure of descent people who care about their friends, neighborhoods, and country.

In the past I have made an attempt to use logic (and God knows how many times I have cast this link before the homophobic swine) but these people don't give a damn. Their minds are made up so don't try to confuse them with facts.

There is a fundamental problem at KnoxViews and I don't see a ready solution. Site rules are worthless if miscreants are allowed to merely return under a cloak of secrecy after being banned for their hateful posts. Yet we get many many thoughtful anonymous postings that are helpful and not allowing them would be a detriment to the community. Do we need another Come to Jesus Meeting?

I know it's awfully unladylike but I'm always tempted to just respond to Nobody with a polite:

Shove it, buggerer.


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R. Neal's picture

Yawn. Would you please go

Yawn. Would you please go away? You are not welcome here.

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