Mon
Oct 20 2008
05:41 pm
Fansler rules that the voter-initiated ordinance against it is "poorly worded" and not enforceable. It seems "convention center hotel" is not in the dictionary.
UPDATE: And even if it was enforceable, the PILOT scheme to be used does not technically involve public funding because of the creative accounting involved.
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Creative Accounting???
Interesting take on the ruling for this mixed-use project, especially the PILOT. The ordinance was pretty clear, it would seem to me on what it wanted to prohibit and not prohibit.
"..this prohibition shall NOT (emphasis mine) apply to the City's existing authority to otherwise provide for tax or lease abatements."
The PILOT is how taxes are abated under Tennessee state law. That authority existed at thet time of the ordinance and exists today. I don't know how it can be much clearer that the voters approved an ordinance that allowed for a PILOT.
The ruling is strong and unequivical. The plaintiff had to prove two points - that this was a convention center hotel and that funding was used in violation of the ordinance. They did neither. This project, which is not a convention center hotel by any common industry use of the term, is privately financed with the exception of dollars generated from the project (PILOT) as specifically allowed in the ordinance and EZ bonds, which are resources of the federal government. There is no burden whatsoever placed on city taxpayers.
Interesting take in this
Interesting take in this headline:
Ruling allows hotel to be built in downtown Knoxville
I didn't think there was any law against building a downtown hotel. Just against the city subsidizing it.
Just like the earlier post today. We know who wears the money pants.
Money Pants?
Even more interesting rejoinder. Would you mind sharing with us who involved here is wearing the "money pants" - including within the universe of potential money pants wearers the party underwriting the plaintiff - and what that might have to do with Chancellor Fansler's ruling on the application of the ordinance.
If you don't think a PILOT is a good idea for this project on the that is a subject for discussion upon which reasonable people might disagree. That still has to survive the political process. However this is about whether the proposed project violates the hotel ordinance. Clearly it does not. I can only surmise that you disagree with the court's decision.
However this is about
However this is about whether the proposed project violates the hotel ordinance. Clearly it does not.
Clearly it does not because Fansler says the ordinance is unclear.
But I so think the project is exactly the kind of thing the voters didn't want City $$ spent on.
However, I personally have no trouble with the in lieu of taxes part.
BTW, Bill, I assume the design of this structure has to comply with downtown design guidelines. I'm concerned about this because the initial published drawings looked like they came from somebody who hadn't even read them.
The ruling was very clear on the funding mechanism.
The only thing the Chancellor said was unclear was in regard to what was, in fact, a convention center hotel. Since the preamble of the ordinance referenced a 400 room free standing hotel, the chancellor referenced it in his conclusion. Reliance on the preamble is typical in such cases. Chancellor Fansler also noted that that the plaintiff provided no independent proof of the meaning of the term. See pages 19-20 of the ruling.
Even if the project was somehow considered a convention center hotel it then came under the financing terms of the ordinance, which clearly specifies in plain language that tax abatement is acceptable. That is the language the voters approved. There is nothing unclear about "This court finds that no public funds or financial resources of the City of Knoxville will be used for the development."
Not a single appropriated tax dollar will go to this mixed use project with a 200 room hotel component - "convention center hotel" or not. That was clearly the intent of the ordinance and all parties put this agreement together to comply with the letter and spirit of the ordinance. The ruling confirms this, and takes the additional step of pointing out that the ordinance was not clearly worded, especially in reference to what constituted a convention center hotel.
Rachel, the final plans for the project must go through the downtown design review process.
A final personal note -- consider it gratuitous and attributable only to me and discount as you see fit. Given the history of the funding of this ordinance and this lawsuit there is a rich irony in referencing monied interests here, of all places. in the context of a judicial decision. Such references are cynical, highly disrespectful to a fair, thoughtful and throrough judge, and destructive to any rational discussion of this situation.
In my opinion discussions at the local level (every bit as much as at the state and national level) are best served by serious policy-based references to key issues and not well served by tossing about emotional hot-button terms in hope of some impact on "atmospherics" of a situation --to what end,I am not sure.
I urge everyone interested in this to read the decision. (link...)
Given the history of the
Given the history of the funding of this ordinance and this lawsuit there is a rich irony in referencing monied interests here, of all places. in the context of a judicial decision. Such references are cynical, highly disrespectful to a fair, thoughtful and throrough judge, and destructive to any rational discussion of this situation.
Say what?
Say what?I believe Bill
Say what?
I believe Bill Lyons is accusing me of accusing a judge of corruption or something. I am highly offended by such an accusation.
It is the nature of the disagreement that is important.
Yes, Randy people in this town can disagree with the government and the courts. And people affected are free here to respond to that disagreement and to assocated intimations. It is often helpful if the disagreement is articulated such that a responsible response can be formulated.
Thanks for the providing a comments section. That gave me the opportunity to respectfully asked what you meant by the reference and whether you disagreed with the ruling and/or the policy, clearly stating that reasonable people could indeed disagree.
In short, I had to infer from your comment that you disagreed with something, but had no idea what that was, or what the basis of that disagreement was, who the "moneypants" was, or what that had to do with the decision. Unfortunately that left room for all sort of inference as to your meaning and some at our favorite commments site have already attacked the judge and the integrity of the process. This sort of thing concerns me, as it does many others.
The case has been decided. However, it is that sort of vague juxtoposition of negative terms without context or justification that causes me concern relative to responsible public dialog, here and elsewhere. That, and respect for differing views, is why I am taking the time to engage this in the midst of a very busy day.
You indicate that the will of the people was not adhered to. Fair enough. However I have to admit that I still don't understand that. I repeat - The ordinance had within its body, in plain language the following..."... this prohibition shall not apply to the City's existing authority to otherwise provide for tax or lease abatements." Clearly it allows for PILOTs. This is the language that the proponents included in the ordinance that city residents voted on and approved. I have to conclude that it expresses their will.
The essence of the ordinance, and its obvious intent is expressed here. "City of Knoxville shall not extend or use the credit of or financial resources of the City to guarantee, support,or finance the construction or acquistion of any such above-described new facilities or structures." Chancellor Fansler clearly ruled that the project financing does NOT do any of these things. No city funds or extension credit is part of this agreement. No appropriated taxpayer funds are being used. Period. I don't understand your contention that the will of the people, clearly expressed in this ordinance, is not being adhered to.
It has been clear since the ordinance was passed that no direct use of city funds or extension of its credit could be go toward the construction of a convention center hotel. It has also been clear since the ordinance was proposed and voted on that that a PILOT is OK. We (and the Chancellor) do not think that this project fell under the rubrick of a "convention center hotel" anyway, but that does not matter. Even if we concede that it is a convention center hotel the financing passes muster.
This project fully complies with the will of the people as expressed through the clear wording of the ordinance for which they signed petitions and subsequently voted for. Thanks for your patience and for the opportunity to engage here. My point with all of this is not to question your motives. I know you are not saying anything about the judge. My point is that it is helpful if disagreement is fleshed out a bit more fully and with fewer hot button terms. That gives less ammunition to those who seem to be intoxicated with raw cynicism to just about anything and anybody, and who flock to the Internet and talk radio to express such.
As to the complaints of the plaintiff, of which I well aware since I was in court the whole time, the Chancellor found them to be without merit. As a wise person once said... "Anyone can file a suit and anyone can produce a laundry list of complaints. A judge has to find them to have merit under the law."
The judge found these arguments to be without merit under the law.
Again, thanks for providing the best vehicle for discussion of such issues. Disagreements aside, this is good for the community.
Rachel, the final plans for
Rachel, the final plans for the project must go through the downtown design review process.
Thanks for the info, Bill. I will repeat that I've been a bit concerned because the original drawing (which I'm sure was just a draft) looked more like an 80s office park than an urban building - particularly one that would fit into the environment we've defined with the downtown design guidelines.
As for the hotel itself, I'll repeat that I do not have, nor ever have had, problems with the use of tax abatement. It was clear that was allowed in what people voted for.
I WOULD be disturbed if the City were to give additional direct $$$ to the project, using the Chancellor's ruling that the definition of "convention center hotel" was unclear. I'm sure legally he's correct, but any reasonable person would also agree that the voters intended for no direct City $$$ to go to build something like this.
Finally, is this project really going ahead? I thought that prehaps the current state of the financial markets would slow it down.
Thanks as always for participating on here.
Tough financing environment
Rachel, first, thanks for referencing what, in fact, the people voted for. I was beginning to wonder about having a discussion about an ordinance and a decision regarding said ordinance where folks' opinions seem not to be grounded either in the wording of the ordinance or the wording of the opinion. Even when we disagree you have always been an adherent to "reality based" dialog and I appreciate that.
Obviously the project will need to secure financing before moving ahead. Everyone knows the present environment but hopefully it can move forward in a reasonable time frame. Regardless of whether or not this is technically a "convention center hotel" The City has never had any intention of proceeding down the road that would put direct City dollars into this mixed-use project. Tax abatement is all that has ever been anticipated.
Even when we disagree you
Even when we disagree you have always been an adherent to "reality based" dialog and I appreciate that.
Cue the digit to call me an urban fascist socialist cheerleader for the Haslam administration. :)
Oh, and I should clarify my statement about not having a problem with tax abatement - that's provided this project is evaluated for tax abatement by the same standards the City uses for other projects and meets the criteria for one. I sort of assumed folks would know I meant that, but probably a good idea to get it on the record.
Play fair...
Cue the digit to call me an urban fascist socialist cheerleader for the Haslam administration. :)
I never used the F word. I don't think that is the right phrase at all. I don't recall socialist either.
I thought the phrase was "new urbanist cheerleader".
I really don't get the fascist or socialist part. This is just a tax grab under special wording. It is kind of contra capitalism.
And Fansler is right, they should have thought of Pilots and TIFS. This was clever legal maneuvering. You have to give the Hotel lawyers credit for a well thought out move. It was quite brilliant.
That is the real point. It doesn't matter as long as the local press is in the tank with this.
People need to wise up. These battles are fought in court not with petitions. The idea that the people have much voice here is a little bit of a fantasy. It is really tough to compete when you are out funded to this degree.
This is unbelievable. I
This is unbelievable.
I think the people of the city of knoxville should be presented a second chance (and a third or more if necessary) to clarify the ordinance to determine if they want to have any form or fashion of taxpayer whatever involved in any downtown projects.
It should be put on an election ballot before anything proceeds.
When they (the people) voted to not fund a "convention center hotel" they didn't realize there should have been a lot more meetings and lawyers to clarify the verbage to ensure the "money pants" people (realtors, developers, Cazana, etc.) did not return to maneuver every last semblance of intent to work around the will of the people.
One point of order. Bill
One point of order. Bill Lyons is correct that the ordinance does not prohibit tax abatement:
"this prohibition shall not apply to the City's existing authority to otherwise provide for tax or lease abatements."
As always, though, I differ somewhat in the definition of "no city funding" when talking about TIFs and PILOTS, but no need to beat that dead horse.
The free federal "Empowerment Zone" funding is amusing though. (Wasn't that a Clinton program?)
HUD
P.S. Here are the specific
P.S. Here are the specific complaints:
The ordinance had within its
Of course it did. Haney had to leave himself a loophole.
Believe it...
It all depends on what the meaning of taxpayer money is?
Perfect.
This is pretty funny. Apparently the English Language is not sufficient to convey the will of the voters.
You have to feel for the taxpayers and the voters. When will they ever learn? We decide these issues in court in this town and the taxpayers have to pay the legal bills. It is like getting screwed twice.
This should be a wake up call on Knox County Charter Amendments 3 and 4. Don't be fooled again. Vote AGAINST Charter Amendments 3 and 4. They are written even more poorly than the City referendum for the Downtown Hotel that Chancellor Fansler threw out.
It's your money. Just say no.
(link...)
God Bless America! Go Vols!
God Bless America! Go Vols! Praise Jesus!
Yeap, that about covers it. I like how they link Neil Armstrong standing on the moon to the charter amendments. I voted "Yes" to all of them just to enrage the digit.
Thats what Jack McElroy said...
I like how they link Neil Armstrong standing on the moon to the charter amendments.
That puts you in league with Jack McElroy. Not a big flag supporter either.
(link...)
However, George Korda said the messaging for the Charter Amendment opposition group was actually a little better than the message from the Knox Charter Petition.
(link...)
Now we learn if the daily paper can fool all the people all the time. They seem to have had some success.
Are you implying I hate baby
Are you implying I hate baby Jesus and America? You dont have any pictures of me not putting my hand over my heart during the anthem do you?
I like how they link Neil
Moonbats, you know...