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Kansas windmill farms
Submitted by R. Neal on Thu, 2008/08/21 - 11:08pm.
Somewhere between Lincoln and Russell County Kansas we saw these gigantic windmill farms that went on forever. Well, for at least 15 or 20 miles. There were hundreds if not thousands of them. I don't recall seeing these the last time we were through here a few years ago.
According to this article, a 100 turbine Kansas farm that went online in 2006 generates enough power for 42,000 homes.
Of course, Republicans in Kansas are opposed to them. In this 2005 press release, Frank Miller, Republican Representative for the 12th District of Kansas, complains about all the tax breaks they get (without mentioning all the tax breaks oil companies get), and cites environmental concerns (without mentioning coal fired power plant pollution or nuclear waste disposal). Maybe it's just me, but these windmill farms look a lot less harmful than a coal fired power plant.
(Rep. Miller notes in his press release that a "100 tower farm with a rated capacity of 100 megawatts running at 30 percent capacity would generate an income in 10 years of approximately $47 million." Sounds like a pretty good supplemental income for farmers.)
Submitted by R. Neal on Thu, 2008/08/21 - 11:22pm.
P.S. I just checked, and Douglas Dam has a rated capacity of 165,600 kilowatts. If my arithmetic is not mistaken, at 100MW per 100 wind turbines, that equals about 165 wind turbines*. How many acres of land would 165 wind turbines take up v. Douglas Reservoir?
(*It is late, and I'm tired from driving all day, so I could be confused.)
Submitted by Johnny Ringo on Fri, 2008/08/22 - 5:47am.
Of course, a lot of people get a lot of recreational pleasure from Douglas lake. Having said that, I think that the windmills are beautiful. It's a shame they suffer from the same NIMBY problem as many other useful utilities, but let's be fair - it's not just Republicans that have opposed them.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 2008/08/22 - 9:26am.
The problem with wind is that you cannot control when you will get power and when you will not. With few exceptions, you can control the power generation of a hydro plant. Wind is not very good at offsetting the need for other generators (coal, gas, nuclear, etc) but is good at offsetting fuel consumption. Since wind is not controllable, you may save on the amount of coal you burn in a year, for example, but you will not eliminate the need to build the coal fired plant since you will need it to run when the wind is not blowing (or blowing too hard).
Wind generation has other problems as well: bird kills, noise, voltage flicker (makes your lights look like you are in a disco). These problems are not insurmountable, but they are not trivial either. Many of these problems become much more of an issue when you increase the amount of wind generation in a given area.
I support wind generation but think the news media does a horrible job presenting its capabilities in a realistic fashion. An illustration: scientists will tell you that they can make gold. You use a particle accelerator, smash some atomic particles together and like magic you can get almost unmeasurable quantities of gold. If the media covered this fact the way they cover wind power you would think that we could be buying gold machines at Walmart in the next few years if it weren't for "big gold" holding the technology back. While the truth is that it is scientifically possible to make gold, but terribly impractical. Wind power is not quite this extreme but the talking heads and news reporters sure do a good job of overselling it.
Submitted by SteveMule on Fri, 2008/08/22 - 5:00pm.
Uh, actaully Anonymous what is clear is that you don't live in a place Kansas, or anywhere on the Great Plains. I've news for you: The wind ALWAYS blows. Sometimes alot, sometimes less, but it ALWAYS blows. That's why they're building the Wind Farms out here and not along Middlebrook Pike.
Secondly, no one expects Wind Power to provide 100% of our energy needs. I've heard the number of 10% and that seems realistic to me.
Submitted by SteveMule on Sun, 2008/08/24 - 8:40am.
Yes, Kansas is long term. That might change if I win the Lottery (which I don't play - I've more sense than to waste my money on it) and I could convince my family to move back with me)
Windmills can cause significant noise pollution. There are claims the noise level can be a irritant for a mile or two away. Sometimes MIMBY makes sense.
Submitted by SteveMule on Fri, 2008/08/22 - 8:54am.
Neal, Folks,
I recently moved to Kansas, not that far from the Wind Farm you saw. I have relatives (by marrige; my brother's in-laws) that have property that is part of this. They were in danger of losing that land a while back. Now thaty are set for the rest of their lives.
On a recent trip to Manhattan, KS, I took some pix of this wind farm, but yours, Neal, are much better :-)
Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Sat, 2008/08/23 - 2:38pm.
I think the solution to varying power is to design power outlets that can be turned on by remote control. That way a cusomer with an electric vehicle could get a break on electricity that is used when KUB or whatever power supplier has excess capacity. Once such a device were invented, it would be easy to retrofit water heaters so that the upper element functions as usual and the lower element is fed by "surplus" power.
____________________________________
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse."
Submitted by SteveMule on Sun, 2008/08/24 - 8:37am.
Voltage variation is taken care of in the power grid before it reaches it your house. Because the US power Grid is AC (60 Hz) it is vitally important that it be in balance at all times. The 2002 (?) North East black out is example of what happens when it isn't in balance; that Grid was unable to comensate fast enough for the cascading effects and ... well, we saw what happened.
The only way you'd need any kind of control (remote or otherwise) would be if, and only if, you had a wind turbine hooked up directly to your house. That isn't happening.
I must confess I can see how it might be a real issue. We stumbled on our first view of operational wind turbines near Kentland, in western Indiana, back in April.
They do generate a distinct, almost sub-audible, visceral thump...thump...thump, sort of like slow-motion helicopter blades, that could conceivably get old after a while if you had to live with it 24 hours a day.
Submitted by Mike Reed (not verified) on Thu, 2008/08/28 - 1:24pm.
Truly, truly Great Pictures (you should offer them to KS tourism board) & thanks for noticing KS on your way thru. So many just ignore the "bread basket" of the US or make disparaging comments.
Truth is, KS is not a fabulous place to visit, unless you know people here. But it is a great place to live, to rear and/or have family. Most of our "treasures" are hidden away on secondery & dirt roads.
The wind has powered KS for over a century. First to drive water wells, then to provide rudimentary electricity (generators & batteries) before Rural Electrification Assoc. came into being in the 1930s.
These new monsters utilize a renewable natural resource and require subsidies... to off-set the many existing & pre-existing subsidies provided to oil, NG & coal - and their purveyors, Public/Regulated Utilities.
Modern wind generators are much more efficient supplemental providers that require little maintenance (sealed bearings, central computer controls, and extremely durable construction, e.g. - they're expensive).
I live within 40 miles of your photo location and would welcome them into my backyard any day. There is sound, but it's much like the relatively constant wind itself ...and immeasurably more pleasant than traffic or the neighbors' air conditioners.
Thanks again, and stop back by KS whenever you're on the move. We try hard to be friendly and helpful to all foregners.
Mike
Thanks, Mike. We have driven I-70 through Kansas twice now and actually enjoyed it both times more than we thought we would. Some of us truly do appreciate the beauty of the crops.
Couple of questions regarding the crops. It looked like there was two different crops of corn, one planted later than the other. Is this true or is the shorter plant just look like corn but is something else? There was a lot of a low lying crop, some sort of bean we guessed. Do you have an idea as to what it is?
We thoroughly enjoyed the Eisenhower Presidential Library and Museum we visited the first time we passed through Kansas. It is a highly recommended stop.
P.S. I just checked, and Douglas Dam has a rated capacity of 165,600 kilowatts. If my arithmetic is not mistaken, at 100MW per 100 wind turbines, that equals about 165 wind turbines*. How many acres of land would 165 wind turbines take up v. Douglas Reservoir?
(*It is late, and I'm tired from driving all day, so I could be confused.)
Of course, a lot of people get a lot of recreational pleasure from Douglas lake. Having said that, I think that the windmills are beautiful. It's a shame they suffer from the same NIMBY problem as many other useful utilities, but let's be fair - it's not just Republicans that have opposed them.
Most times I say something nice about Ted Kennedy - and over the past ten years I've really come to appreciate him - I add, "except for Cape Wind."
Liberty and justice for all.
My home
The problem with wind is that you cannot control when you will get power and when you will not. With few exceptions, you can control the power generation of a hydro plant. Wind is not very good at offsetting the need for other generators (coal, gas, nuclear, etc) but is good at offsetting fuel consumption. Since wind is not controllable, you may save on the amount of coal you burn in a year, for example, but you will not eliminate the need to build the coal fired plant since you will need it to run when the wind is not blowing (or blowing too hard).
Wind generation has other problems as well: bird kills, noise, voltage flicker (makes your lights look like you are in a disco). These problems are not insurmountable, but they are not trivial either. Many of these problems become much more of an issue when you increase the amount of wind generation in a given area.
I support wind generation but think the news media does a horrible job presenting its capabilities in a realistic fashion. An illustration: scientists will tell you that they can make gold. You use a particle accelerator, smash some atomic particles together and like magic you can get almost unmeasurable quantities of gold. If the media covered this fact the way they cover wind power you would think that we could be buying gold machines at Walmart in the next few years if it weren't for "big gold" holding the technology back. While the truth is that it is scientifically possible to make gold, but terribly impractical. Wind power is not quite this extreme but the talking heads and news reporters sure do a good job of overselling it.
Uh, actaully Anonymous what is clear is that you don't live in a place Kansas, or anywhere on the Great Plains. I've news for you: The wind ALWAYS blows. Sometimes alot, sometimes less, but it ALWAYS blows. That's why they're building the Wind Farms out here and not along Middlebrook Pike.
Secondly, no one expects Wind Power to provide 100% of our energy needs. I've heard the number of 10% and that seems realistic to me.
Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!
SteveMule
In Kansas, on the plains:
The wind ALWAYS blows. Sometimes alot, sometimes less, but it ALWAYS blows.
That's exactly what we said to each other after reading that comment.
Is Kansas long term for you, Steve? Beautiful country, a little remote.
Yes, Kansas is long term. That might change if I win the Lottery (which I don't play - I've more sense than to waste my money on it) and I could convince my family to move back with me)
Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!
SteveMule
Plenty of other people have concerns about windmills.
Link...
Link...
Windmills can cause significant noise pollution. There are claims the noise level can be a irritant for a mile or two away. Sometimes MIMBY makes sense.
Link...
Link...
MIMBY=NIMBY
Neal, Folks,
I recently moved to Kansas, not that far from the Wind Farm you saw. I have relatives (by marrige; my brother's in-laws) that have property that is part of this. They were in danger of losing that land a while back. Now thaty are set for the rest of their lives.
On a recent trip to Manhattan, KS, I took some pix of this wind farm, but yours, Neal, are much better :-)
Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!
SteveMule
If coal prices continue to rise as they have been, wind power will be a more viable alternative.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
Don't know. Can't wait to tie my boat up to a wind mill though. Maybe the crappie are biting between turbine 121 and 128.
Aren't there some serious moving parts on these wind mills that require frequent OILING?
Question: What's your opinion of eminent domain?
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
It's almost negligible, smartass. And yes, to get to them, service personnel even have to drive trucks that burn oil!
Watch out, apparently they explode:
Link...
I think the solution to varying power is to design power outlets that can be turned on by remote control. That way a cusomer with an electric vehicle could get a break on electricity that is used when KUB or whatever power supplier has excess capacity. Once such a device were invented, it would be easy to retrofit water heaters so that the upper element functions as usual and the lower element is fed by "surplus" power.
____________________________________
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse."
Voltage variation is taken care of in the power grid before it reaches it your house. Because the US power Grid is AC (60 Hz) it is vitally important that it be in balance at all times. The 2002 (?) North East black out is example of what happens when it isn't in balance; that Grid was unable to comensate fast enough for the cascading effects and ... well, we saw what happened.
The only way you'd need any kind of control (remote or otherwise) would be if, and only if, you had a wind turbine hooked up directly to your house. That isn't happening.
Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!
SteveMule
I must confess I can see how it might be a real issue. We stumbled on our first view of operational wind turbines near Kentland, in western Indiana, back in April.
They do generate a distinct, almost sub-audible, visceral thump...thump...thump, sort of like slow-motion helicopter blades, that could conceivably get old after a while if you had to live with it 24 hours a day.
Truly, truly Great Pictures (you should offer them to KS tourism board) & thanks for noticing KS on your way thru. So many just ignore the "bread basket" of the US or make disparaging comments.
Truth is, KS is not a fabulous place to visit, unless you know people here. But it is a great place to live, to rear and/or have family. Most of our "treasures" are hidden away on secondery & dirt roads.
The wind has powered KS for over a century. First to drive water wells, then to provide rudimentary electricity (generators & batteries) before Rural Electrification Assoc. came into being in the 1930s.
These new monsters utilize a renewable natural resource and require subsidies... to off-set the many existing & pre-existing subsidies provided to oil, NG & coal - and their purveyors, Public/Regulated Utilities.
Modern wind generators are much more efficient supplemental providers that require little maintenance (sealed bearings, central computer controls, and extremely durable construction, e.g. - they're expensive).
I live within 40 miles of your photo location and would welcome them into my backyard any day. There is sound, but it's much like the relatively constant wind itself ...and immeasurably more pleasant than traffic or the neighbors' air conditioners.
Thanks again, and stop back by KS whenever you're on the move. We try hard to be friendly and helpful to all foregners.
Mike
Thanks, Mike. We have driven I-70 through Kansas twice now and actually enjoyed it both times more than we thought we would. Some of us truly do appreciate the beauty of the crops.
Couple of questions regarding the crops. It looked like there was two different crops of corn, one planted later than the other. Is this true or is the shorter plant just look like corn but is something else? There was a lot of a low lying crop, some sort of bean we guessed. Do you have an idea as to what it is?
We thoroughly enjoyed the Eisenhower Presidential Library and Museum we visited the first time we passed through Kansas. It is a highly recommended stop.
What is the name of the wind farm in question? That is one big project.
I believe it is about 30 miles west of Salida, correct?
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