Thu
Aug 14 2008
06:34 pm
I've been following this, but thought it was an open and shut case too silly to bother commenting on.
Score one for the nationalist white southern pride movement, and thanks to the jury for once again embarrassing the State of Tennessee.
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Same here. How many rednecks
Same here. How many rednecks you think they have on the jury spouting off about "heritage not hate"?
The student doesn't
have the right of free speech in the school. If this case was about his wearing of the flag in the general public, then obviously he would be within his rights to wear the flag, but not school. The "Jesus...bong hits" case is similar.
Surprised
I'm surprised at how few people are standing up for the kid. I thought every redneck under the sun would stand up for him. I happen to believe the kid does have a constitutional right to be an idiot and wear the flag in school. But I will certainly exercise my own constitutional rights in calling him a lowlife piece of trash.
Me, too
"I happen to believe the kid does have a constitutional right to be an idiot and wear the flag in school. But I will certainly exercise my own constitutional rights in calling him a lowlife piece of trash."
My position, exactly, Elrod--and may local governments forever grant those stupid-assed "skinheads" the right to rally.
I can't believe I'm on the other side of this...
but I don't understand the argument in this particular case for a 1st Amendment violation. A juvenile (and the individual was a juvenile at the time of the incident) isn't entitled to his full set of civil rights nor is he subject to the full responsibilities of an adult. His parents are still legally liable for any wrongdoing he does, he cannot be tried as an adult without a special decision from a court (and that's a whole other thread entirely), and he's still subject to "statutory rape" laws should he get involved with an older woman. He does not have the right to move out of his parent's home or to cease to abide by their rules (unless he becomes legally emancipated). There's example after example after example clearly establishing that a juvenile is not entitled to the full set of civil rights an adult would have. You can get esoteric about when an older adolescent matures into those rights, but from a legal standpoint, there has to be a clear line drawn in the sand. Here in the U.S., that's 18 for some things, 21 for some others, and even older for a few more. I can make a case that one isn't fully enfranchised as a U.S. citizen until they're 35. Even those of us of a libertarian bent who believe most rights are inherent rather than merely given allow for juveniles not to be fully entitled to all of them.
Case after case after case has upheld the right of a public school to impose a dress code on students, up to and including school uniforms. From that standpoint, a Confederate Battle Flag garners no more special consideration than baggy pants and midriff exposing tee shirts. The jury acted foolishly in its failure to reach a verdict. More than this, the judge acted foolishly in permitting this to go as far as a trial. The whole complaint ought to have been dismissed with prejudice.
As a side note, I've always argued that a Tennessean determined to show his pride in his Confederate heritage should select a flag that better represents the Army of Tennessee, whose every function was purely military, and that hasn't been corrupted by organizations like the KKK. My personal favorite would be Hardee's Battle Flag. (link...)
But then, that's not usually exactly what the wearer is really trying to convey, is it?
Tinker & Hazelwood.
There should have just been a bench decision referring to Tinker and Hazelwood. We've already had the Supreme Court rule repeatedly about student freedom of speech that is disruptive. Having a jury trial was just a waste of time and money.
Not that I agree with Tinker, but I wasn't there so I don't know how "disruptive" the armbands could have really been...
Exactly
The rule is legal and has been enforced for more than just the KKK flag. Case closed, no jury needed for this one.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
The student doesn't have the
You are absolutely correct, Glen. If the kid wants to go to boomsday with the stars and bars on his shirt, no problem. Schools must be able to enforce a dress code, however.
missing the bus
you're all missing the bus. the only solution to this is mandatory dress codes. Tinker does not apply because there have been no incidents causing disruption where the flag is implicated.
let's hope the jury does the right thing and finds for the student.
Case after case after case
I also have a problem with this "It's my heritage" business. I could easily be wrong (there was that time back in 1966) but somehow I doubt that kid is remotely aware of 99% of the history that really is his heritage.
If his ancestors were East Tennesseans, they were most likely Unionists anyway.
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It's hard to say and he probably can't either...
In East Tennessee, there were certainly more Unionists than Confederates by a fairly substantial margin. However, Neutrality would have been the most popular single sentitment in this area toward the war. East Tennessee was solidly against secession, however. If his ancestors were from Knoxville, though, the ratio of Unionists to Confederates reverses itself. This was the most pro-Confederate place in pro-Union East Tennessee. Being an urban area, neutrality was also much harder to effect. In this particular part of these United States, figuring out where one's ancestors stood on the Civil War is a dicey game without supporting materials.
I happen to know from my great Aunt Mamie from stories she heard directly from her own grandfather, John Thomas Spencer, a Civil War veteran, that he was solidly neutral in his sentiments and that "the only fighting he ever wanted to do in that blame war was in defense of his own cornfield." He was drafted illegally and entirely against his will into Longstreet's Corps as his forces retreated northeast after the Battle of Knoxville and shortly before the Battle of Dandridge.
Now, unless Mr. Defoe has such provenance of his own ancestry, it would be amost impossible to say which side his forebears would have fought for in the Civil War, much less whether or not they fought willingly, assuming they were from East Tennessee. It would surely cause eyes to glaze over to examine immigration patterns and project the probablilities that his ancestors are from here, are from the South, or were even in the United States in 1861-65.
From personal knowledge, it seems a very large percentage - not all - of these "heritage" boosters don't seem to know much more than that they were born in the South and are damned proud of it. I would think a Richard Petty sticker or Lynard Skynard logo would make that statement sufficiently, but oh well...
Bristol was much more Confederate than Knoxville
Bristol and Sullivan County was the most pro-Confederate area of East Tennessee, mostly because of the V&ET Railroad connecting it to tobacco-based Virginia. If you use the June 1861 referendum on secession as a guide (and it's a pretty good indicator considering it was after the war began), over 70% of Sullivan County for secession. Nowhere else in East Tennessee came close.
Knoxville was more Unionist than Confederate, though it definitely had its share of Confederates. The Brownlow influence was very strong among Knoxville's strong ex-Whig electorate in keeping loyalties to the Union.
His flag is upside down
If his reason is heritage then he needs to know the flag on his belt is upside down! I don't own a Confederate Flag but I do believe the man had right to wear it under current dress codes written by the Anderson County School Board. The dress code is pretty much open to the opinion of the principle. It should be more specific and not require the opinion of the principle.
Frankly, all this "Southern Heritage" malarkey...
would probably suffer a permanent derailment if people knew their history better. Like the fact that 71,000 years ago (give or take) the eruption of the supervolcano in Lake Toba on Sumatra nearly wiped out the human race. The theory of leading scientists says that humanity today is ALL related to approximately 10,000 human beings that managed to survive in Africa (because the tropical refuges there were more numerous). Elsewhere on earth a volcanic winter plunged the planet ecosystem into a nearly decade long cooling cycle which exacerbated an ice age that was already beginning. The volcanic winter of the Toba eruption destroyed the growing seasons for at least six years. Not only did the human population nearly go extinct, so did a lot of species of plants and animals. The biggest volcanic winter event in recorded history so far has been the Tambora event which caused the "year without a summer" in 1816. That volcanic eruption was 40 times LESS than the Toba eruption.
There is not a single "pure" race on Earth and all the "Southern Heritage" you can muster will not change that. We all come from the SAME roots, even the Biblical story of Adam and Eve says so.
_________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"
"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
Naw, the world's only 6,000
Naw, the world's only 6,000 years old, donchaknow?
Proud ignorance knows no remediation.
Liberty and justice for all.
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The "Heritage not Hate"
The "Heritage not Hate" mantra is pretty much negated by the presence of Kirk Lyons, the Klan and Nazi-sympathizing lawyer who is pictured in the NS standing behind the plaintiff and his counsel. And seeing (and hearing) that kid on TV was a hoot. I'm relieved not to be kin to him. The Dixiecrats must be so proud.
(link...)
And to top it all off, that crazy old HK Edgerton showed up too -- he and June Griffin need to get married.
Betty (and everyone else),
Betty (and everyone else), check out Joe Powell:
(link...)
on the Kirk Lyons involvement and more.
Kirk Lyons and other riff-raff
Throughout my career, I've covered various hate groups, beginning with a Klan rally in Sevier County in 1985. Later, while still working in Sevier County, I ran across identity preacher Ken Gregg, who objected to paying taxes and was affiliated with a neo-nazi paramilitary group out of North Carolina led by a crazoid named Glenn Miller. About the time I got to the Journal, Miller and Gregg surfaced again wanting to have a march down Gay Street in honor of some racist cause or another. I met Richard Butler (founder of the Aryan Nations) when I went down to Pulaski to cover a massive gathering of racist groups drawn from all over the country. Kirk Lyons attended this.
Seeing Lyons on the cover of the NS wearing a big cowboy hat and not identified as a well-documented nationally-known racist leader was as appalling as seeing the demented June Griffin getting an op-ed piece in the same issue of the paper. I like Jim Balloch personally, but he is so caught up in Southern heritage that I do not think that he should have covered this case. I don't know how anybody who saw/heard the plaintiff expounding on his "heritage" and what he thinks of those who oppose him can claim that he's anything more than your basic single-digit IQ, bottom-feeding redneck punk.
Ken Gregg:
(link...)
As are most of those who sport "confederate" gear.
Yeah! the 6th U.S. Circuit
Yeah!
Anderson County, please contact Blount County for advice.