Submitted by Joe Hultquist on Tue, 2008/07/08 - 10:27pm.
Since this video is four years old, I may be the last one to get on the (viewing) bus. Still, just in case there might be someone out there who hasn't seen it, I think it's worth the watch.
Is it anywhere close to accurate? I can't say. Is it worth contemplating? I'd say it is. I believe there's an undeniable underlying truth to its foundational arguments, whether they've got the specifics right or not. Eventually, we're going to have to change the way we do what we do. The question isn't if, but when, and how quickly the transition will happen.
WARNING: It's 52 minutes long. Unless you've got a really fast download connection, I recommend starting it, and then pausing it to let it load, before watching it. And, of course, allow nearly an hour for viewing time.
I am not Kunstler's heir, whoever Kunstler is. The German for "Mister" is "Herr." You'd know that, but you aren't terribly well educated. QED.
As for good and bad, a suburb is empirically a bad idea since it wastes energy to accomplish what a close-in neighborhood with similar amenities does not. Why do you want to waste energy? Are you a fool with money too?
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 11:00am.
the decider? how about the taxpayers funding all that sprawl?
a few examples of the real costs of sprawl, locally:
$5 million in subsidies to Turkey Creek
newly constructed Hardin Valley Academy, while three other existing high schools are failing under NCLB
LCUB's deficient service in sprawling Farragut--a problem of supply and demand.
infrastructure cost of substandard road repairs after suburban developments are already approved and built, without the correspondent investment by the developers themselves. They now have enough hubris to ask for TIF money to build new Walmarts and Lowes stores.
The urban core needs less material investment by government to function properly. The investments in the urban core are more readily made by property owners because their property is already part of the grid, and has been for 100 years.
Submitted by Lisa Starbuck on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 11:27am.
Thanks for posting this Joe. Now can you figure out how to get our local leadership to watch and understand? Especially some of our county commissioners and MPC folks who just don't get it?
Submitted by Anonymously Nine (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 11:28am.
how about the taxpayers funding all that sprawl?
I see, only noble people live in the inner hive, I mean core.
It is those land hording suburban power wasters that must be dealt with? To save the planet and keep us pure?
It is so interesting listening to social democrats try to justify why they should get the majority of the tax spoils.
500 Million dollars has been spent in downtown Knoxville. How much is returned in tax dollars? Was that a good investment for taxpayers?
The rocketsquirrel says 5 million allegedly was invested by taxpayers for Turkey Creek shopping complex. I thought the actual amount was closer to 10 million dollars. How much is returned in tax dollars? About 11 million a year. Pretty good return on taxpayer investment.
Submitted by Factchecker on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 11:40am.
Eventually, we're going to have to change the way we do what we do. The question isn't if, but when, and how quickly the transition will happen.
We once had a leader who saw this and put us on a reasonable course to make the transition. His successor scrapped all of those programs and forced us back to where we were. History bailed him out in the short term by a tempororary collapse of OPEC's dominance of oil supply and thus the ability to set its price.
The next time we had a chance was 8 years ago. Given all that's happened since, would-be President Gore was the perfect pick for a second chance.
The U.S. President is the critical link in effecting real change worldwide. How will we deal with our chance this fall and how many more chances do we have?
Submitted by Factchecker on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 11:45am.
P.S. I love those old clips. Very nostalgic, even as wrongheaded as we know now that lifestyle was. Started watching this morning, but didn't have the time, so I hope to watch it all tonight. Anyway, when it started playing I couldn't help but think about Wall*E. Those who have seen the movie would understand.
Submitted by Lisa Starbuck on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 12:48pm.
It's not just Kunstler - I suppose you think Matthew Simmons is a nutcase too? Did you even watch the video? Killing the messenger won't make the message go away. Regardless of whether you are Repub or Demo, liberal or conservative, the idea that there is limitless cheap oil out there or that we can just continue on as usual is madness.
Submitted by Anonymously Nine (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 1:53pm.
Killing the messenger won't make the message go away. Regardless of whether you are Repub or Demo, liberal or conservative, the idea that there is limitless cheap oil out there or that we can just continue on as usual is madness.
Is the issue oil or is it where people should live and how they should live?
Where is the proof this is madness? Oil works. It works well. The only problem is there isn’t enough of it that can be refined quickly enough. That is why the price has gone up. Everyone knew China and India were becoming industrialized. But we listened to the flower children and stop drilling for oil and building refineries.
How stupid was that?
Some advice, if you want to recruit people it works better if you do not tell them they are evil and stupid. For some reason, people don't take well to being put down.
What will cars run on in twenty years?
The cheapest fuel. That is what cars will run on. People care more about their families than they do the planet. That is how we survive. Cue the virulent condemnations that we live on a living planet and it is the only place we have.
This idea that we should pay more and suffer more to save the planet needs some work. It is hard enough to sell altruism for living people much less sell altruism for the planet.
Coal gasification could provide our energy needs for a very long time. So could nuclear. But the great lemming hive thinkers will not allow coal of any kind or nuclear of any kind. The idea of windmill farms and solar farms powering electric cars is a Utopian idea. One has to wonder if it is brought to us by the people who will profit from windmill farms and solar farms.
So when people like Krazy Kunstler tells us we have to suffer and pay more taxes while we suffer, the messenger will be criticized.
Other than the “hockey stick”, and "peak oil", where is the proof that oil is the great demon? My car runs on gas, not rainbows and bunnies.
What to sell altruism for the planet? Show people how it saves them money.
Submitted by Brian A. on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 2:06pm.
Ironically, it will people like Anonymously Nine who will be squealing the loudest when gas prices become so high that they can no longer afford to fill up their SUVs for their daily 50-mile commute.
Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 2:16pm.
mmm, somebody's a nutcase if they think we can drill our way out of this. I'll listen to T. Boone Pickens, a man with almost 60 years in the oil business, more than Nine on this one. If you listen to the whole interview, you'll also hear him acknowledge that we are at or near peak oil, and thinks that the Saudi's speculating that they can increase production to 12 million barrels a day is poppycock. They are currently at 9 1/2 million.
In this interview the other day on NPR please note that he did NOT say we need to drill for more domestic oil. He advocates wind power for the grid and natural gas for transportation fuel. He said, "The mistake was made because we didn't have the leadership that stepped up and said, 'We cannot continue to import foreign oil.'"
After decades investing in oil, T. Boone Pickens is now pouring billions of dollars into what he calls America's biggest wind farm. Pickens envisions putting up 2,500 turbines in Texas to generate 4,000 megawatts of energy — enough to power 1.3 million homes.
Pickens says America is living with oil prices of more than $140 per barrel and gasoline topping $4 per gallon because it didn't plan for its energy future.
"The mistake was made because we didn't have the leadership that stepped up and said, 'We cannot continue to import foreign oil,'" Pickens tells Steve Inskeep.
Wind currently generates a relatively small percentage of the nation's power, with most coming from coal, nuclear and natural gas.
Pickens says he would like to use more wind for power generation and shift natural gas for use as a transportation fuel.
"We've got plenty of natural gas," he says. "That's the beauty of it. Natural gas is cleaner, it's cheaper, it's abundant and it's domestic."
He notes that the United States, with just 4 percent of the world's population, uses 25 percent of the world's oil supply — most of it imported.
Pickens says he wants the government to extend a production tax credit for wind power for a period long enough to encourage investment in the technology.
The federal government recently issued a report forecasting that 20 percent of U.S. power generation could come from wind energy by the year 2030. Pickens says that's too long from now — he'll be 102 years old.
"This has to happen quicker than that," he says. "We'll be broke if you wait for this to all take place by 2030."
So is T Boone Pickens a fruitcake leftwinger, or a pragmatic realist?
Submitted by Anonymously Nine (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 9:10pm.
Ironically, it will people like Anonymously Nine who will be squealing the loudest when gas prices become so high that they can no longer afford to fill up their SUVs for their daily 50-mile commute.
Never had an SUV. Never saw the appeal.
My cars get at least 22 MPG city. I probably have a smaller carbon footprint, which doesn't matter, than most people on this blog. Last year put 9,700 miles on all three cars.
I don't have a physical commute. I use wires.
But I am a heartless conservative. I ride my bicycle only for fun.
Submitted by talidapali on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 3:12pm.
No. We don't want Utopia...with Utopia comes stagnation, and with stagnation comes death...(kind of like living in suburbia). What we want is sustainable living that leaves the planet in better shape afterwards than it was before. We want to always keep reaching higher and better, finding ways to improve our world...not destroy it in a hand-wringing, wailing, and teeth-gnashing round of suicidal consumption, while whining that "it's all just too big and too hard for one person to make a difference!!! WAAAAHHHHHHH."
That's not Utopia, that's just common sense. There should be a way for our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren to live in the future, not just us in the here and now.
And that is NOT an impossibility. It takes guts to try to be a better man or woman, to try to live a better life, and leave a better legacy for future generations to look up to...unless you're too chicken to try.
_________________________________________________ "You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White" "I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
I fought the temptation to dive into this, partly because I find all this "death of suburbia" stuff way oversold (Kunstler is at least honest enough to admit that said end will be a painful - and perhaps bloody affair. Indeed he's disturbingly giddy about the prospect). But, then, I've always conceded that Kunstler was a bit of a crank (although he is in the business of selling books and speaking engagements, and bluster generates sales...) He's hardly cornered the market on cranky bluster, though. Have you ever stopped to consider, nine, that you and Kunstler both wear tinfoil hats?
Submitted by Anonymously Nine (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 2:18pm.
Have you ever stopped to consider, nine, that you and Kunstler both wear tinfoil hats?
I accept that people who believe in Earth Altruism and Global Warming would see any pragmatic defense of oil as tin foiled hatted.
Provide a better fuel source at a competitive price and the odds are I would change. I would to so to reduce the ozone air pollution. Which is provable and is a real problem.
The idea Kunstler has of only one urban core is a fallacy. There can be multiple cores both urban and suburban.
What does make sense is multi-use. I am not against the things that do make sense. Walkable communities are a plus. I live in one.
There are people who live in suburban suburbs who can walk to the Market, the Library, and the Post Office. Village Green would be a good example.
Kunstler is a huckster. That doesn't mean every single thing he says is wrong. But his Utopian dreams are dark fantasies.
"I accept that people who believe in Earth Altruism and Global Warming"
Actually, I'm something of an agnostic on global warming (science, by definition, is never "settled").
"The idea Kunstler has of only one urban core is a fallacy. There can be multiple cores both urban and suburban."
Have you ever actually read any Kunstler? Or just the Free Republic condensed version? You might actually find that you, Kunstler and the "New Urbanists" have some common ground:
"As a formal proposition, the human habitat is the town, the village, the neighborhood, and the city..." And, your "vertical sprawl" fantasies aside, he takes a rather dim view of the future of most big cities (he lives, btw, in Saratoga Springs, a town of about 40,000).
Btw, the article that quote comes from is mostly a swipe at the environmental movement:
"The terms open space and green space are themselves very problematical for a number reasons. They are abstractions. They do not describe anything particular. A farm and a neighborhood square are both “open spaces,” both “green spaces,” but they differ hugely in function, character, and ownership relations with society...If you ask for an abstraction (green space) it will be delivered as an abstraction (grassy berm)."
The use of any finite resource as if it is infinite violates the precautionary rule and therefore can never be considered a practice that works best. There is nothing pragmatic about peak oil denial.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Submitted by Factchecker on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 3:07pm.
But we listened to the flower children and stop drilling for oil and building refineries. ... How stupid was that?
...
People care more about their families than they do the planet. That is how we survive. Cue the virulent condemnations that we live on a living planet and it is the only place we have.
...
Coal gasification could provide our energy needs for a very long time.
How many non sequiturs and ignorant remarks can you possibly make in one post? I already addressed the first idiotic line. The answer to the end of affordable oil, not to mention global warming (your disbelief of which shows how screwed your mind is), is alternate, sustainable forms of energy.
Where have you Republicans been on alternate energy since the warning signs have been popping up for the last, oh, 35 years? Same place McBush still is. Keep drilling, Scotty. There's plenty of untapped oil in the U.S.!
Submitted by Anonymously Nine (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 3:15pm.
The answer to the end of affordable oil, not to mention global warming (your disbelief of which shows how screwed your mind is), is alternate, sustainable forms of energy.
How sustainable is corn ethanol? How is that working for you?
"The answer to the end of affordable oil...is alternate, sustainable forms of energy."
Maybe. Although, as nine might be surprised to discover, Kunstler's mighty skeptical on that point (one point I tend to agree with him on). There's a distressing tendency, on both sides of the debate, to conflate technology and energy.
Submitted by Factchecker on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 6:00pm.
There's a distressing tendency, on both sides of the debate, to conflate technology and energy.
Certainly there are some enviros who think we're going to have cheap solar everything very soon if we just invest enough. I think there are many more on the other side, though, who want to talk about yankee "technology" as our savior "someday"--whether fusion, "clean coal," or some other fantasy, which gives them a reason to insist on business as usual (ie, keep drilling and hoping) for the foreseeable future (McBush, Duncan, Alexander, et al). Meanwhile, if we just had leadership, there are current technologies such as CSP that we can employ now and they can close the energy shortage gap cheaper and faster than, say, drilling ANWR or starting new nuwkular plants.
Actually, I'm something of an agnostic on global warming (science, by definition, is never "settled").
I'm surprised at you. This science has been settled for a long time. What there is is uncertainty. But it's only a matter of where we fall within the extremes of we're pretty screwed but still have a few years to correct what we're doing to ourselves and we're totally screwed and far past the point of no return. That's the only debate between real climate scientists.
Submitted by Factchecker on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 6:12pm.
How sustainable is corn ethanol? How is that working for you?
What does that have to do with anything?
Why does it have to be sustainable? Where was that written on clay tablets?
Clay tablets? Who cares? It just depends on how long you want mankind to exist. Otherwise, you either have unintended long term effects that negate all the partying you can do now with cheap energy, which burdens future generations with diseases like asthma and with our cleanup bills, or at best, we subject them to the same type of painful transitions we're now going through. There are, unavoidably, some transitional energy sources we have to employ, such as ethanol of all kinds, but they are stop-gap and come with a price (like your beloved corn ethanol example).
Submitted by talidapali on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 11:03pm.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 8:42pm.
I propose that cities like Knoxville should postpone road projects for a few years and focus on sidewalks.
Absolutely. We should also invest in bike paths and bike lanes on the roads as well, so that people who WANT to use a tried and true method of getting around that is sustainable, can do so without risking death or maiming by having to share a narrow roadway with those super-sized, gas-hogging SUVs carrying those super-sized, McDonald's-munching humans who don't look any farther into the future than what's for dinner.
/snark off
_________________________________________________ "You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White" "I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
Island Homes is a suburb isn't it?
If you still wear a bowler and stiff collar, sure. In the 21st Century, it is a downtown neighborhood in the urban core.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
In the 21st Century, it is a downtown neighborhood in the urban core.
Urban suburb=good
Suburban suburb=bad
And who is the decider Heir Kunstler?
I am not Kunstler's heir, whoever Kunstler is. The German for "Mister" is "Herr." You'd know that, but you aren't terribly well educated. QED.
As for good and bad, a suburb is empirically a bad idea since it wastes energy to accomplish what a close-in neighborhood with similar amenities does not. Why do you want to waste energy? Are you a fool with money too?
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
the decider? how about the taxpayers funding all that sprawl?
a few examples of the real costs of sprawl, locally:
The urban core needs less material investment by government to function properly. The investments in the urban core are more readily made by property owners because their property is already part of the grid, and has been for 100 years.
Thanks for posting this Joe. Now can you figure out how to get our local leadership to watch and understand? Especially some of our county commissioners and MPC folks who just don't get it?
how about the taxpayers funding all that sprawl?
I see, only noble people live in the inner hive, I mean core.
It is those land hording suburban power wasters that must be dealt with? To save the planet and keep us pure?
It is so interesting listening to social democrats try to justify why they should get the majority of the tax spoils.
500 Million dollars has been spent in downtown Knoxville. How much is returned in tax dollars? Was that a good investment for taxpayers?
The rocketsquirrel says 5 million allegedly was invested by taxpayers for Turkey Creek shopping complex. I thought the actual amount was closer to 10 million dollars. How much is returned in tax dollars? About 11 million a year. Pretty good return on taxpayer investment.
Let's review, vertical sprawl good. Horizontal sprawl bad.
We once had a leader who saw this and put us on a reasonable course to make the transition. His successor scrapped all of those programs and forced us back to where we were. History bailed him out in the short term by a tempororary collapse of OPEC's dominance of oil supply and thus the ability to set its price.
The next time we had a chance was 8 years ago. Given all that's happened since, would-be President Gore was the perfect pick for a second chance.
The U.S. President is the critical link in effecting real change worldwide. How will we deal with our chance this fall and how many more chances do we have?
P.S. I love those old clips. Very nostalgic, even as wrongheaded as we know now that lifestyle was. Started watching this morning, but didn't have the time, so I hope to watch it all tonight. Anyway, when it started playing I couldn't help but think about Wall*E. Those who have seen the movie would understand.
He's the scourge of the new century, alright. From Radiant City. Highly recommended.
So to make the bike trail "nicer" you propose to remove the Interstate Highway?
I suppose a team of bicyclists could pull a semi-tractor trailer of toilet paper. 18 strapping bicyclists could do it. Heavy loads may require horses.
Maybe they just put the bike trail in the wrong spot?
You social democrats are funny. You envision an impossible utopia.
Remember when Krazy Kunstler thought Y2K was the end times?
Link...
BTW, did you know you are killing the planet?
Link...
Happy now?
It's not just Kunstler - I suppose you think Matthew Simmons is a nutcase too? Did you even watch the video? Killing the messenger won't make the message go away. Regardless of whether you are Repub or Demo, liberal or conservative, the idea that there is limitless cheap oil out there or that we can just continue on as usual is madness.
Killing the messenger won't make the message go away. Regardless of whether you are Repub or Demo, liberal or conservative, the idea that there is limitless cheap oil out there or that we can just continue on as usual is madness.
Is the issue oil or is it where people should live and how they should live?
Where is the proof this is madness? Oil works. It works well. The only problem is there isn’t enough of it that can be refined quickly enough. That is why the price has gone up. Everyone knew China and India were becoming industrialized. But we listened to the flower children and stop drilling for oil and building refineries.
How stupid was that?
Some advice, if you want to recruit people it works better if you do not tell them they are evil and stupid. For some reason, people don't take well to being put down.
What will cars run on in twenty years?
The cheapest fuel. That is what cars will run on. People care more about their families than they do the planet. That is how we survive. Cue the virulent condemnations that we live on a living planet and it is the only place we have.
This idea that we should pay more and suffer more to save the planet needs some work. It is hard enough to sell altruism for living people much less sell altruism for the planet.
Coal gasification could provide our energy needs for a very long time. So could nuclear. But the great lemming hive thinkers will not allow coal of any kind or nuclear of any kind. The idea of windmill farms and solar farms powering electric cars is a Utopian idea. One has to wonder if it is brought to us by the people who will profit from windmill farms and solar farms.
So when people like Krazy Kunstler tells us we have to suffer and pay more taxes while we suffer, the messenger will be criticized.
Other than the “hockey stick”, and "peak oil", where is the proof that oil is the great demon? My car runs on gas, not rainbows and bunnies.
What to sell altruism for the planet? Show people how it saves them money.
"Coal gasification could provide our energy needs for a very long time."
Funny, I thought I was the one hankering to return to the days of streetcars and gaslights...
Ironically, it will people like Anonymously Nine who will be squealing the loudest when gas prices become so high that they can no longer afford to fill up their SUVs for their daily 50-mile commute.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
mmm, somebody's a nutcase if they think we can drill our way out of this. I'll listen to T. Boone Pickens, a man with almost 60 years in the oil business, more than Nine on this one. If you listen to the whole interview, you'll also hear him acknowledge that we are at or near peak oil, and thinks that the Saudi's speculating that they can increase production to 12 million barrels a day is poppycock. They are currently at 9 1/2 million.
In this interview the other day on NPR please note that he did NOT say we need to drill for more domestic oil. He advocates wind power for the grid and natural gas for transportation fuel. He said, "The mistake was made because we didn't have the leadership that stepped up and said, 'We cannot continue to import foreign oil.'"
So is T Boone Pickens a fruitcake leftwinger, or a pragmatic realist?
Ironically, it will people like Anonymously Nine who will be squealing the loudest when gas prices become so high that they can no longer afford to fill up their SUVs for their daily 50-mile commute.
Never had an SUV. Never saw the appeal.
My cars get at least 22 MPG city. I probably have a smaller carbon footprint, which doesn't matter, than most people on this blog. Last year put 9,700 miles on all three cars.
I don't have a physical commute. I use wires.
But I am a heartless conservative. I ride my bicycle only for fun.
Last year put 9,700 miles on all three cars.
Then why the heck do you need 3 cars? Just curious.
"I don't have a physical commute. I use wires."
And those wires use electricity and lot more than you realize.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
I said "like" as in those who are similarly criticizing the movement for us to drastically reduce our fossil fuels consumption.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
No. We don't want Utopia...with Utopia comes stagnation, and with stagnation comes death...(kind of like living in suburbia). What we want is sustainable living that leaves the planet in better shape afterwards than it was before. We want to always keep reaching higher and better, finding ways to improve our world...not destroy it in a hand-wringing, wailing, and teeth-gnashing round of suicidal consumption, while whining that "it's all just too big and too hard for one person to make a difference!!! WAAAAHHHHHHH."
That's not Utopia, that's just common sense. There should be a way for our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren to live in the future, not just us in the here and now.
And that is NOT an impossibility. It takes guts to try to be a better man or woman, to try to live a better life, and leave a better legacy for future generations to look up to...unless you're too chicken to try.
_________________________________________________
"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"
"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
you propose to remove the Interstate Highway?
Did I propose that?
They're just tuned to different frequencies.
Have you ever stopped to consider, nine, that you and Kunstler both wear tinfoil hats?
I accept that people who believe in Earth Altruism and Global Warming would see any pragmatic defense of oil as tin foiled hatted.
Provide a better fuel source at a competitive price and the odds are I would change. I would to so to reduce the ozone air pollution. Which is provable and is a real problem.
The idea Kunstler has of only one urban core is a fallacy. There can be multiple cores both urban and suburban.
What does make sense is multi-use. I am not against the things that do make sense. Walkable communities are a plus. I live in one.
There are people who live in suburban suburbs who can walk to the Market, the Library, and the Post Office. Village Green would be a good example.
Kunstler is a huckster. That doesn't mean every single thing he says is wrong. But his Utopian dreams are dark fantasies.
"I accept that people who believe in Earth Altruism and Global Warming"
Actually, I'm something of an agnostic on global warming (science, by definition, is never "settled").
"The idea Kunstler has of only one urban core is a fallacy. There can be multiple cores both urban and suburban."
Have you ever actually read any Kunstler? Or just the Free Republic condensed version? You might actually find that you, Kunstler and the "New Urbanists" have some common ground:
"As a formal proposition, the human habitat is the town, the village, the neighborhood, and the city..." And, your "vertical sprawl" fantasies aside, he takes a rather dim view of the future of most big cities (he lives, btw, in Saratoga Springs, a town of about 40,000).
Btw, the article that quote comes from is mostly a swipe at the environmental movement:
Link...
"The terms open space and green space are themselves very problematical for a number reasons. They are abstractions. They do not describe anything particular. A farm and a neighborhood square are both “open spaces,” both “green spaces,” but they differ hugely in function, character, and ownership relations with society...If you ask for an abstraction (green space) it will be delivered as an abstraction (grassy berm)."
The use of any finite resource as if it is infinite violates the precautionary rule and therefore can never be considered a practice that works best. There is nothing pragmatic about peak oil denial.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
How many non sequiturs and ignorant remarks can you possibly make in one post? I already addressed the first idiotic line. The answer to the end of affordable oil, not to mention global warming (your disbelief of which shows how screwed your mind is), is alternate, sustainable forms of energy.
Where have you Republicans been on alternate energy since the warning signs have been popping up for the last, oh, 35 years? Same place McBush still is. Keep drilling, Scotty. There's plenty of untapped oil in the U.S.!
The answer to the end of affordable oil, not to mention global warming (your disbelief of which shows how screwed your mind is), is alternate, sustainable forms of energy.
How sustainable is corn ethanol? How is that working for you?
Why does it have to be sustainable? Where was that written on clay tablets?
You don't even know what the damn word means as used.
Nine is not sustainable either in its present rate of consumption.
"The answer to the end of affordable oil...is alternate, sustainable forms of energy."
Maybe. Although, as nine might be surprised to discover, Kunstler's mighty skeptical on that point (one point I tend to agree with him on). There's a distressing tendency, on both sides of the debate, to conflate technology and energy.
Here's an idea: let's lock Kuntsler and the digit in a room together with an exhaust fan and vent.
The resulting hot air could heat a small city for months.
:)
Certainly there are some enviros who think we're going to have cheap solar everything very soon if we just invest enough. I think there are many more on the other side, though, who want to talk about yankee "technology" as our savior "someday"--whether fusion, "clean coal," or some other fantasy, which gives them a reason to insist on business as usual (ie, keep drilling and hoping) for the foreseeable future (McBush, Duncan, Alexander, et al). Meanwhile, if we just had leadership, there are current technologies such as CSP that we can employ now and they can close the energy shortage gap cheaper and faster than, say, drilling ANWR or starting new nuwkular plants.
I'm surprised at you. This science has been settled for a long time. What there is is uncertainty. But it's only a matter of where we fall within the extremes of we're pretty screwed but still have a few years to correct what we're doing to ourselves and we're totally screwed and far past the point of no return. That's the only debate between real climate scientists.
What does that have to do with anything?
Clay tablets? Who cares? It just depends on how long you want mankind to exist. Otherwise, you either have unintended long term effects that negate all the partying you can do now with cheap energy, which burdens future generations with diseases like asthma and with our cleanup bills, or at best, we subject them to the same type of painful transitions we're now going through. There are, unavoidably, some transitional energy sources we have to employ, such as ethanol of all kinds, but they are stop-gap and come with a price (like your beloved corn ethanol example).
More on how screwed this thinking is.
I propose that cities like Knoxville should postpone road projects for a few years and focus on sidewalks.
Absolutely. We should also invest in bike paths and bike lanes on the roads as well, so that people who WANT to use a tried and true method of getting around that is sustainable, can do so without risking death or maiming by having to share a narrow roadway with those super-sized, gas-hogging SUVs carrying those super-sized, McDonald's-munching humans who don't look any farther into the future than what's for dinner.
/snark off
_________________________________________________
"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"
"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
Post new comment