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City of Knoxville proposing Homeless Housing in South Knoxville
Submitted by bizgrrl on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 11:39am.
City of Knoxville Mayor Bill Haslam, along with Knox County Mayor Mike Ragsdale, have a plan to end chronic homelessness. Part of this plan is to make the old Flenniken School in SoKno (on Flenniken Ave., near the Martin Mill Pike and Chapman Hwy intersection close to town) a permanent, supportive facility for the homeless.
According to this report in today's KNS, local SoKno business people and neighborhood representatives are not ready to approve such a proposal. "A group of South Knoxville business people and neighborhood representatives plans to ask the Metropolitan Planning Commission to postpone action next Thursday..." Southeast Housing Foundation, LLC, and Flenniken Housing, LLC, are local businesses that have been mentioned in association with developing the site.
In a much earlier Metropulse article, Jon Lawler [Developer and Director of Ten-Year Plan to End Chronic Homelessness], had to quickly come up with the Flenniken School as an alternate location for the homeless facility after well-known landowner Bob Monday, owner of the old Parkway Hotel building, "nixed" the idea to make that building a homeless residential facility.
The South Knox-Seymour Times reports on a meeting of Joe Hultquist [First District City Councilman] and the "newly-formed Downtown South Business Association (DSBA)" to discuss the "proposal to house 48 homeless and mentally-ill individuals at the currently-unused Flenniken Elementary School on Martin Mill Pike". The group came up with a good list of questions that should be answered prior to further steps to make this change.
Note in the mayors' Flenniken Housing discussion, they say the residents will "sign a lease and pay rent", but later they say "that person [formerly homeless resident] is in a much better position to work towards becoming a contributing member of the society" and "Some of them will have a great deal of employment potential and others, especially those with mental illness, will not". How will they pay rent if they are only is a "better position" or have "employement potential"? How long will the residents have to gain regular employment? What will happen if they don't? Once they gain regular employment, do they have to move? What kind of follow-up will the mayors provide to ensure the formerly homeless stay productive members of society?
An additional question I have is, what's the hurry? Shouldn't the mayors take the time to address community issues?
Submitted by Treehouse on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 12:10pm.
I believe the hurry is because of the tax credits which can only be applied for once a year and results of that application will be known in August. Some at the meeting thought it was a done deal but Jon Lawler was not so optimistic the credits would be granted.
That reason is not enough to approve this so quickly. However, the MPC rezoning is probably going to happen because they don't have reason not to. But the change will allow the new zoning to be changed again to allow multi-family zoning. Perhaps the only way to stop this is at the City Council level.
I thought it was interesting that Southeastern Housing Foundation is one person. It is a non-profit.
Jon Lawler argued that eliminating homelessness is a moral imperative. I agree but that doesn't mean we should stop the questions as to the adequacy of the planning and ongoing operations of this effort. To me, the case management is the biggest issue and that has also not been explained fully.
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 2008/07/08 - 6:02pm.
Looks like Jon Lawler didn't score high enough to get the tax credits needed for turning Flenniken School into homeless housing.
"There’s still plenty of work to do," the article says.
Yep. and a bunch of money to be made by "nonprofit" developers in the subsidized housing racket.
Who originally built Townview Terrace (and many other section 8 projects in town)? Lawler Wood.
Who got the contract to rehab Townview after letting it run down for 30 years? Lawler Wood.
Who is the director of the ten year plan to end chronic homelessness for Knoxville and Knox County? Jon Lawler.
Who benefits from "housing the homeless first?"
"nonprofit" development agencies like Southeastern, working in cahoots with real developers who are addicted to HUD money, under the guise of a "moral imperative."
Submitted by Bbeanster on Tue, 2008/07/08 - 8:57pm.
Who benefits from "housing the homeless first?"
"nonprofit" development agencies like Southeastern, working in cahoots with real developers who are addicted to HUD money, under the guise of a "moral imperative."
Yikes!
This is one of the really big unmentionable-out-loud stories in this town.
Submitted by Sobi (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 9:44am.
"This is one of the really big unmentionable-out-loud stories in this town."
Lol. That a big developer is getting richer doing small affordable housing projects for homeless people is one of the many bizarro-world paranoid fantasies in this town.
Lawler-Wood doesn't have a connection to this project. They'd never touch it. It's got zero profit potential. This project was supposed to have housed chronically-homeless people. That's not gonna be your market-rate demographic, you know. And the project is too small to be profitable on the razorthin margins you get when you do affordable housing. Besides, it's a hassle to turn an old school into a bunch of little apartments. Why would they mess with that?
So what's the story, bbeanster? Or can't you mention it?
Submitted by R. Neal on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 10:55am.
Lawler-Wood doesn't have a connection to this project. They'd never touch it. It's got zero profit potential.
So, somebody's going to do all the construction for free? They're going to provide all the architectural design, materials, and labor and stuff at no charge as a public service? If so, how come the paper says it's a $6+ million project? Where's the money going? And where's it coming from?
Submitted by Sobi (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 1:43pm.
I'm guessing very low profit potential for a developer. The developer assumes all the risk, ultimately, not the contractors and architect.
Zero? Maybe I exaggerated. But maybe not.
Have you gone over and looked at that building? Been inside it? I have. It's a wickedly cool building, but I think you'd have to be tweakin' mad to think you were going to make money rehabbing it unless you had presold it as pricey condos or office space. That's not what this deal was about.
And where's the money coming from? I dunno. The paper seems to suggest that there's been a little bone shoved down the throat of that question.
Submitted by Nobody (not verified) on Wed, 2009/06/17 - 8:48pm.
Big Fish, Small Pond. Amazing how do goods are there to push the homeless into a helpful situation. Self examination is needed. Why scatter them into the lowest income areas. Maybe to to keep them out of Bearden? How far woould 6 million dollar go toward construction of a new building? In an area nearer to employment and a park like Sequoyah Hills where Jon like to run and enjoy palatial living. This would be much more likely to lift them out of their current situation.
Submitted by CathyMcCaughan on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 2:16pm.
!) Unused buildings at Lakeshore Park? A mental facility is already on the grounds.
All of the smaller buildings, including the chapel, have been sold to Parks & Rec. Expect many to be demolished for parking lots. Lakeshore is not the type of facility that halfway house residents would utilize. Lakeshore houses SPMI who are unable to live in group homes. Lakeshore houses the forensic consumers until they are capable of serving their sentence in a correctional facility. Lakeshore does short term inpatient care to stabilize. Lakeshore is also in need of serious renovations. I suspect it will close in the next 5-10 years and be grabbed up by developers.
There are buildings suitable for halfway houses all over town. On an individual basis, some of these clients could fill in vacancies in the independent living facilities for seniors that are in every neighborhood. Placing them more than a bus ride away from the case management and other services for the homeless that exist downtown seems economically unwise, no matter how much you hate Farragut. Are they prepared to duplicate the support services everywhere in Knoxville? Are they talking about transitional housing or a long-term group home setting?
Submitted by Carole Borges on Sun, 2008/07/06 - 10:51am.
On an individual basis, some of these clients could fill in vacancies in the independent living facilities for seniors that are in every neighborhood.
Wouldn't that be taking advantage of a vulnerable group of people that tends to worry about crime more than others already? Our seniors need a chance to have a safe, secure senior life without having to stay awake nights worrying about their next door neighbors.
This would redistribute the unwanted homeless population, but I think the opposition towards this idea would be justifiably enormous.
Submitted by CathyMcCaughan on Sun, 2008/07/06 - 11:58am.
Young adults with mental illnesses have successfully used senior care facilities. You wouldn't put a homeless person who is still operating in survival mode there, but on a case by case basis, it would work for some.
Submitted by StaceyDiamond on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 4:04pm.
The beggars, which may be different from the actual homeless, have gotten more agressive and mean downtown and even spread to places like the Young High Pike Krogers, beware of beggars with cute puppies, a new trick. Also, men are cruising for hookers in the daylight in Old North, its disgusting. I don't know if either problem is solvable with a 10 year plan, isn't prostitution 2000 yearls old. Perhaps a brothel on Central would help get some off the street.
As a member of the Downtown South Business Association and, having attended the public meetings with regards to the Flenniken School Plans, I would like to mention that this group is not completely opposed to this project.
However, this project has been put on a fast-track and the group believes there should more consideration given to the impact on the area and community before being put in the SoKnox backyard.
If you are interested in participating in a face-to-face discussion, there will be a meeting tonight @ 6:30 at the Woodlawn Christian Church (4339 Woodlawn Pike).
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2008/07/07 - 4:13pm.
Yes, but on the opposite side of the highway. Just a guess, but wouldn't there be a considerably greater amount of pedestrians crossing Chapman Highway if it were located at Flenniken?
I'm not saying it shouldn't be located at Flenniken. I just feel all things should be considered.
Lots of sidewalks in Farragut...they even have two new hospitals close by and an express bus that goes right to downtown. Lets build some low income housing near the old Kroger in Farragut/Kingston Pike.
Submitted by GoWest (not verified) on Mon, 2009/06/22 - 7:00pm.
Now there is a selfless donation? What could the government's 6 million bring these folks on some acreage in Sequoyah?
Speeding traffic and congestion from Sevierville, Seymour, South Knox County and UT student populations are a problem on Chapman Highway. It is so congested nearer to town that it is difficult for police to enforce observation of the lights and speeders. Essentially radar and pulling people over creates more chaos. The cameras seem to be effective on the lights. Are you saying these sick people, unable to take care of themselves, often mentally unstable, should be housed near a busy speeding highway? I suppose a few fatalities would bring some actions; although it is not ideal...
Most of the clients are male, are, or have been regular drug users and have criminal records. Check the statistics on the client we are not to disciminate against in South Knoxville. Most of them do not have driver's license or vehicles.
So the West Knox City Area does not have more job opportunities, social workers, or bus services?
Submitted by Up Goose Creek on Tue, 2008/07/08 - 10:08pm.
Townview terrace was originally built as mid range housing and went section 8 in the 80's. I'd like to see the feds limit the number of subsidized units in a development to 20-30& or so. That way the managers have incentive to keep troublemakers in line to keep them from running off the market rate tenants.
____________________________________
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse."
True, Lawler-Wood generally chases bigger fish. Although there are quite a few intertwined subsidiaries. Parkridge successfully fought off, several years back, a 64-unit low income tax credit development atop what were once the standard knitting mill's parking lots. I forget the corporate name of the "developer" in that instance, but it was Mike Wood who did all the talking (lucky for Parkridge, Victor was still pissed at Pat and Rodney for jacking up the price on one of the potential baseball stadium sites).
Betty's right, though, it is something of an open secret about how Lawler and Wood have done quite well for themselves in affordable housing (the Townview buyout and subsequent construction management contract was particularly galling).
Nice pavilion out on the river, though. Sometimes they even let neighborhood groups use it...
Submitted by Sobi (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 12:43pm.
Really? I didn't realize that the fact that Lawler-Wood made beaucoup bucks doing low-income housing all over the place was a secret of any kind. I would have thought, "Everyone knows that."
But they never made it on projects like this one at the old Flenniken school. They don't generally chase bigger fish than this. They always do.
And Mike Wood is not related to Lawler-Wood, biz-wise. Wood's over in South Knox, not on Gay Street, and although he's Pat Wood's brother, his realty joint is not an "intertwined subsidiary" of L-W.
And none of them have anything to do with this Flenniken thing.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 1:01pm.
OK, I'm guilty of highlighting the wrong part of Anonymous' post. Here's the part I was specifically citing. The Townview Terrace saga never got closely examined, in part because of the prominence of Lawler/Wood. I'm not saying that Jon Lawler had anything to do with that. My only contact with him was to write about the non-public negotiations he was conducting to sell Ft. Dickerson to South College (these dealings were done with Victor Ashe's blessing, and, iirc, collapsed when the public got wind of them).
Who originally built Townview Terrace (and many other section 8 projects in town)? Lawler Wood.
Who got the contract to rehab Townview after letting it run down for 30 years? Lawler Wood.
Submitted by Sobi (not verified) on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 2:32pm.
I'm still not seeing the conspiracy in all this, my good people. None of those entities ever had anything to do with this project, except for one obvious genetic connection.
My only contact with him was to write about the non-public negotiations he was conducting to sell Ft. Dickerson to South College (these dealings were done with Victor Ashe's blessing, and, iirc, collapsed when the public got wind of them).
But, Bean, it was only PART of Fort Dickerson. :)
You remember correctly. I think there would have literally been pitchforks and torches carried to the C/C building over that one.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Wed, 2008/07/09 - 3:15pm.
The "sale" was further complicated by a deed restriction that Lawler evidently didn't know about. The family that donated Ft Dickerson to the city (the Wayland family, I believe) wanted the land back if the city ever decided to get shed of it. I came across that factoid the easy way -- Mary Sullivan, the wife of Joe Sullivan, the former owner of Metro Pulse, is a member of the Wayland family, and it took one call to the administrator of the family properties (they own a big chunk on the west side of Chapman Highway, including the former Pinkston Motors site) to find out that the sale couldn't happen.
In case anybody missed it, MPC denied the Use on Review for Flenniken School last week. The vote was near unanimous (one vote in favor). No word on whether this will be appealed to Council.
I believe the hurry is because of the tax credits which can only be applied for once a year and results of that application will be known in August. Some at the meeting thought it was a done deal but Jon Lawler was not so optimistic the credits would be granted.
That reason is not enough to approve this so quickly. However, the MPC rezoning is probably going to happen because they don't have reason not to. But the change will allow the new zoning to be changed again to allow multi-family zoning. Perhaps the only way to stop this is at the City Council level.
I thought it was interesting that Southeastern Housing Foundation is one person. It is a non-profit.
Jon Lawler argued that eliminating homelessness is a moral imperative. I agree but that doesn't mean we should stop the questions as to the adequacy of the planning and ongoing operations of this effort. To me, the case management is the biggest issue and that has also not been explained fully.
Looks like Jon Lawler didn't score high enough to get the tax credits needed for turning Flenniken School into homeless housing.
"There’s still plenty of work to do," the article says.
Yep. and a bunch of money to be made by "nonprofit" developers in the subsidized housing racket.
Who originally built Townview Terrace (and many other section 8 projects in town)? Lawler Wood.
Who got the contract to rehab Townview after letting it run down for 30 years? Lawler Wood.
Who is the director of the ten year plan to end chronic homelessness for Knoxville and Knox County? Jon Lawler.
Who benefits from "housing the homeless first?"
"nonprofit" development agencies like Southeastern, working in cahoots with real developers who are addicted to HUD money, under the guise of a "moral imperative."
Yikes!
This is one of the really big unmentionable-out-loud stories in this town.
"This is one of the really big unmentionable-out-loud stories in this town."
Lol. That a big developer is getting richer doing small affordable housing projects for homeless people is one of the many bizarro-world paranoid fantasies in this town.
Lawler-Wood doesn't have a connection to this project. They'd never touch it. It's got zero profit potential. This project was supposed to have housed chronically-homeless people. That's not gonna be your market-rate demographic, you know. And the project is too small to be profitable on the razorthin margins you get when you do affordable housing. Besides, it's a hassle to turn an old school into a bunch of little apartments. Why would they mess with that?
So what's the story, bbeanster? Or can't you mention it?
Lawler-Wood doesn't have a connection to this project. They'd never touch it. It's got zero profit potential.
So, somebody's going to do all the construction for free? They're going to provide all the architectural design, materials, and labor and stuff at no charge as a public service? If so, how come the paper says it's a $6+ million project? Where's the money going? And where's it coming from?
I'm guessing very low profit potential for a developer. The developer assumes all the risk, ultimately, not the contractors and architect.
Zero? Maybe I exaggerated. But maybe not.
Have you gone over and looked at that building? Been inside it? I have. It's a wickedly cool building, but I think you'd have to be tweakin' mad to think you were going to make money rehabbing it unless you had presold it as pricey condos or office space. That's not what this deal was about.
And where's the money coming from? I dunno. The paper seems to suggest that there's been a little bone shoved down the throat of that question.
Big Fish, Small Pond. Amazing how do goods are there to push the homeless into a helpful situation. Self examination is needed. Why scatter them into the lowest income areas. Maybe to to keep them out of Bearden? How far woould 6 million dollar go toward construction of a new building? In an area nearer to employment and a park like Sequoyah Hills where Jon like to run and enjoy palatial living. This would be much more likely to lift them out of their current situation.
Why cant we house them closer to Farragut?
!) Unused buildings at Lakeshore Park? A mental facility is already on the grounds.
2) That small old school on Lyons View
3) Some of the vacant space at Western Plaza
4) Brownlow School
Is there anything like that at all west of town and to Farragut?
4) Brownlow School
4th & Gill already struggles with all the homeless in the mission district. That neighborhood already does its share.
All of the smaller buildings, including the chapel, have been sold to Parks & Rec. Expect many to be demolished for parking lots. Lakeshore is not the type of facility that halfway house residents would utilize. Lakeshore houses SPMI who are unable to live in group homes. Lakeshore houses the forensic consumers until they are capable of serving their sentence in a correctional facility. Lakeshore does short term inpatient care to stabilize. Lakeshore is also in need of serious renovations. I suspect it will close in the next 5-10 years and be grabbed up by developers.
There are buildings suitable for halfway houses all over town. On an individual basis, some of these clients could fill in vacancies in the independent living facilities for seniors that are in every neighborhood. Placing them more than a bus ride away from the case management and other services for the homeless that exist downtown seems economically unwise, no matter how much you hate Farragut. Are they prepared to duplicate the support services everywhere in Knoxville? Are they talking about transitional housing or a long-term group home setting?
Wouldn't that be taking advantage of a vulnerable group of people that tends to worry about crime more than others already? Our seniors need a chance to have a safe, secure senior life without having to stay awake nights worrying about their next door neighbors.
This would redistribute the unwanted homeless population, but I think the opposition towards this idea would be justifiably enormous.
I wholeheartedly agree with your concern.
Young adults with mental illnesses have successfully used senior care facilities. You wouldn't put a homeless person who is still operating in survival mode there, but on a case by case basis, it would work for some.
The beggars, which may be different from the actual homeless, have gotten more agressive and mean downtown and even spread to places like the Young High Pike Krogers, beware of beggars with cute puppies, a new trick. Also, men are cruising for hookers in the daylight in Old North, its disgusting. I don't know if either problem is solvable with a 10 year plan, isn't prostitution 2000 yearls old. Perhaps a brothel on Central would help get some off the street.
Did somebody say: NIMBY?
~m.
As a member of the Downtown South Business Association and, having attended the public meetings with regards to the Flenniken School Plans, I would like to mention that this group is not completely opposed to this project.
However, this project has been put on a fast-track and the group believes there should more consideration given to the impact on the area and community before being put in the SoKnox backyard.
If you are interested in participating in a face-to-face discussion, there will be a meeting tonight @ 6:30 at the Woodlawn Christian Church (4339 Woodlawn Pike).
If it were to be located at Flenniken wouldn't this be putting more pedestrians on Chapman Highway, an already dangerous highway.
I could be wrong, but don't they have sidewalks on Chapman Hwy up to that point?
Yes, but on the opposite side of the highway. Just a guess, but wouldn't there be a considerably greater amount of pedestrians crossing Chapman Highway if it were located at Flenniken?
I'm not saying it shouldn't be located at Flenniken. I just feel all things should be considered.
Lots of sidewalks in Farragut...they even have two new hospitals close by and an express bus that goes right to downtown. Lets build some low income housing near the old Kroger in Farragut/Kingston Pike.
There would also be more job opportunities for them in Farragut.
Now there is a selfless donation? What could the government's 6 million bring these folks on some acreage in Sequoyah?
Speeding traffic and congestion from Sevierville, Seymour, South Knox County and UT student populations are a problem on Chapman Highway. It is so congested nearer to town that it is difficult for police to enforce observation of the lights and speeders. Essentially radar and pulling people over creates more chaos. The cameras seem to be effective on the lights. Are you saying these sick people, unable to take care of themselves, often mentally unstable, should be housed near a busy speeding highway? I suppose a few fatalities would bring some actions; although it is not ideal...
Most of the clients are male, are, or have been regular drug users and have criminal records. Check the statistics on the client we are not to disciminate against in South Knoxville. Most of them do not have driver's license or vehicles.
So the West Knox City Area does not have more job opportunities, social workers, or bus services?
Is this the direction we are heading?
Link...
Link...
are going to die...then let them do it and decrease the surplus population..."
Ebenezer Scrooge
A sentiment to which many now subscribe...perhaps the Ghosts of Christmas need to begin making the rounds a little earlier each year.
_________________________________________________
"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"
"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
This is how a small town in Calif is temporarily helping the homeless situation.
Link...
Townview terrace was originally built as mid range housing and went section 8 in the 80's. I'd like to see the feds limit the number of subsidized units in a development to 20-30& or so. That way the managers have incentive to keep troublemakers in line to keep them from running off the market rate tenants.
____________________________________
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse."
True, Lawler-Wood generally chases bigger fish. Although there are quite a few intertwined subsidiaries. Parkridge successfully fought off, several years back, a 64-unit low income tax credit development atop what were once the standard knitting mill's parking lots. I forget the corporate name of the "developer" in that instance, but it was Mike Wood who did all the talking (lucky for Parkridge, Victor was still pissed at Pat and Rodney for jacking up the price on one of the potential baseball stadium sites).
Betty's right, though, it is something of an open secret about how Lawler and Wood have done quite well for themselves in affordable housing (the Townview buyout and subsequent construction management contract was particularly galling).
Nice pavilion out on the river, though. Sometimes they even let neighborhood groups use it...
Really? I didn't realize that the fact that Lawler-Wood made beaucoup bucks doing low-income housing all over the place was a secret of any kind. I would have thought, "Everyone knows that."
But they never made it on projects like this one at the old Flenniken school. They don't generally chase bigger fish than this. They always do.
And Mike Wood is not related to Lawler-Wood, biz-wise. Wood's over in South Knox, not on Gay Street, and although he's Pat Wood's brother, his realty joint is not an "intertwined subsidiary" of L-W.
And none of them have anything to do with this Flenniken thing.
If there's a conspiracy here, prove it.
OK, I'm guilty of highlighting the wrong part of Anonymous' post. Here's the part I was specifically citing. The Townview Terrace saga never got closely examined, in part because of the prominence of Lawler/Wood. I'm not saying that Jon Lawler had anything to do with that. My only contact with him was to write about the non-public negotiations he was conducting to sell Ft. Dickerson to South College (these dealings were done with Victor Ashe's blessing, and, iirc, collapsed when the public got wind of them).
I'm still not seeing the conspiracy in all this, my good people. None of those entities ever had anything to do with this project, except for one obvious genetic connection.
My only contact with him was to write about the non-public negotiations he was conducting to sell Ft. Dickerson to South College (these dealings were done with Victor Ashe's blessing, and, iirc, collapsed when the public got wind of them).
But, Bean, it was only PART of Fort Dickerson. :)
You remember correctly. I think there would have literally been pitchforks and torches carried to the C/C building over that one.
The "sale" was further complicated by a deed restriction that Lawler evidently didn't know about. The family that donated Ft Dickerson to the city (the Wayland family, I believe) wanted the land back if the city ever decided to get shed of it. I came across that factoid the easy way -- Mary Sullivan, the wife of Joe Sullivan, the former owner of Metro Pulse, is a member of the Wayland family, and it took one call to the administrator of the family properties (they own a big chunk on the west side of Chapman Highway, including the former Pinkston Motors site) to find out that the sale couldn't happen.
In case anybody missed it, MPC denied the Use on Review for Flenniken School last week. The vote was near unanimous (one vote in favor). No word on whether this will be appealed to Council.
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