I actually thought about it for about three hours before I posted. This is a man who said this in 1995:
"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."
...and this of the University of North Carolina in 1950:
"The University of Negroes and Communists"
...and this in 1956:
"To rob the Negro of his reputation of thinking through a problem in his own fashion is about the same as trying to pretend that he doesn't have a natural instinct for rhythm and for singing and dancing."
...and this, explaining why he wouldn't vote for a woman for a cabinet post:
"She's a damn lesbian. I am not going to put a lesbian in a position like that. If you want to call me a bigot, fine."
...and this in 1968, when told that Duke University students were holding a vigil for the assassinated Martin Luther King, Jr.:
"They should ask their parents if it would be all right for their son or daughter to marry a Negro."
...and this, in 1999, introducing anti-Gay Rights Bill into the Senate:
"This bill attempts to make sure that President Clinton is not allowed to do by Executive Order what Congress has declined to enact in the past two congressional sessions namely, to treat homosexuals as a special class protected under various titles of the Civil Rights Act of 1964."
I heard that the President said something like "the nation lost a great patriot today." But all I could think was that the nation lost a mean, bitter old man today.
I don't care if you like him or hate him, what he was or what he wasn't. "Hell is a little more crowded today"? That is just as offensive as those who said "Guess George Carlin is doing his stand up before God now".
Just don't like the "Glad they're dead" sentiment.
Submitted by WhitesCreek on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 8:19pm.
I don't see anything that can be taken as a "Glad he's dead", but I understand the quandary of what to say when a detestable person, who spouted more than his fair share of venom while he was alive, passes.
I'm sorry. The tone of this whole conversation creeps me out.
"Hell is a little more crowded"....?
From the KNS "Helms and his wife, Dorothy, had two daughters and a son. They adopted the boy in 1962 after the child, 9 years old and suffering from cerebral palsy, said in a newspaper article that he wanted parents."
They adopted the boy in 1962 after the child, 9 years old and suffering from cerebral palsy, said in a newspaper article that he wanted parents
Perhaps he should have spent more time talking with his wife.
If nothing else, he will be remembered as a test case for a person's affection for free speech. I'm inclined to praise him for having the courage to speak his mind, but I don't want to mistake stupidity for courage.
Speech aside, many of his actions in the Senate were despicable, and he was given far more power than he deserved. One of the most valuable benefits of free speech is the open display of stupidity. It was his party allowing him to rise to the front bench that was the real problem, not Helms' tongue. A party that can not be trusted to filter its own dregs is a party that should not be trusted with votes.
I wish more conservatives had the courage to "call a spade a spade," as David Oatney said of Helms. Conservatives' stay-in-line, follow-along tendencies are what make them obey the edicts of "political correctness." They should just say nigger if nigger is what they mean, but instead of being defiant, they whine. Conservatives just lost their last, best rebel.
So now he's Hitler? I don't know if he's moved up or down on some of your lists.
I am just astounded by this conversation. The point I am trying to make is whether you agree or disagree with Helms to say "hell is a little more crowded..." and rejoice at his death is wrong. If your opinion is that he hated people and you believe that was wrong then how can you say it is okay to hate him?
I guess I'll move along. I can't understand this way of thinking. Apparently the moderator found it not so tolerable as well or he wouldn't have changed the title.
Oh and by the way, Tammy Faye Bakker and her husband took money from little old ladies on a fixed income so she could have gold faucets in her bathtub. But she was a good old broad and will be missed. Didn't I read that around here somewhere?
Submitted by Bbeanster on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 9:52pm.
But she was a good old broad and will be missed. Didn't I read that around here somewhere?
Yep.
She had a greedy streak, for which she was appropriately punished by losing most everything she had and being held up to public ridicule. Jesse's being hailed as a "patriot" by the president.
Tammy Faye was never hateful and I never heard of her calling anyone names or wishing harm on those with whom she disagreed.
Jesse was full of hate and appealed to haters. Hell ain't hot enough for people like him.
I am not defending Senator Helms. That still is not my point.
Just to say, when the sad day comes that we lose Senator Kennedy there will be a great outcry from those who will say "He killed that girl and we're glad he's dead and hell ain't hot enough" and on and on and on.
And on that day, we here will be disgusted, outraged and indignant, just as I was when Carlin died and the folks over at KNS made their remarks about how he could do his little stand up before God now.
I hope that day is long into the future. But when it comes just remember what ol' Bizzy is trying to say to you today.
If we believe in tolerance then we should set a better example.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Fri, 2008/07/04 - 11:49pm.
Here's the difference, Bizzy:
Wingnuts are already gloating over Ted Kennedy's illness. You can find it on most any of their websites. It's there. And actually, you can find it in other places, too, come to think of it -- check the hard-core "PUMA" websites. Bunch of them were and still are doing advance rejoicing. Heck, the Guerilla Women were celebrating Tim Russert's death, too. And the wingnuts don't hate Teddy because of he left Mary Jo Kopechne in the drink -- they hate him because he is a Kennedy. And a liberal. The GWs, of course, hate him because he didn't back their candidate.
OTOH, it was common knowledge that Jesse Helms was in failing health. I haven't seen a soul eagerly anticipating his demise. I'm not going to pretend that I'm sorry that he's shuffled off this earthly coil, and I'm not going to pretend that I'm sorry that I'm not sorry. Heck -- we all die, and he lived a long and comfortable life. The only thing I regret about the timing of this event is that he's not going to see Obama elected president.
Athough it's hard to get a feel for folks who insist on remaining anonymous, I've always liked you, and I am a little disappointed to see you pretending for the sake of making your point that that Jesse's hate speech -- bad as it was -- was his worst sin -- or that I called him Hitler, for that matter.
I didn't hate Jesse because he was a conservative. I despised him because he opposed every single civil rights measure that ever came down the pipeline, and he had the power to do more than just talk about it. He filibustered against anti-lynching legislation, for crap's sake. He was personally vengeful and bigoted and he imposed his crabbed view of the way things ought to be on the world for just as long as he could pin on his Depends and totter out to work in the morning. I wish we could ask Emmitt Till's mother who offends her more -- Jesse or Tammy Faye. But she died after waiting more than 50 years for justice, so I'll just have to guess what she'd think.
Jesse was infinitely worse than Bobby Byrd or Strom Thurmond or George Wallace, who all publicly repented late in life and made significant attempts to set things right. Jesse Helms never, ever did. As recently as 2005, when he published his memoirs, he said "We will never know how integration might have been achieved in neighborhoods across our land, because the opportunity was snatched away by outside agitators who had their own agendas to advance. We certainly do know the price paid by the stirring of hatred, the encouragement of violence, the suspicion and distrust.”
I haven't heard that language since the 1950s. Ol' Jesse didn't change a whit.
And those outside agitators like Emmitt Till or the three boys buried in that earthen dam in Philadelphia Mississippi had it coming to them. And so does Jesse, if there is indeed a price to be paid in the Great Beyond.
And that is that I was completely shocked to see the original title of the post. I admit I took offense to it. I honestly don't care if anyone liked or didn't like Senator Helms or what he was or wasn't. But you have to admit the tone became very mean-spirited. I just don't like to see people reduced to that level of discussion no matter what side it is. 'Taint civilized.
I guess I expect a little more gentleness from the folks here than what I see on the KNS site and if you perceive Senator Helms as a hater, you don't match hate with hate.
Submitted by Factchecker on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 8:55am.
Nice post, Betty. Every time one of these events occurs, there are a handful of thoughtful people who take the time to sort out the reasons for all the resulting rancor coming from the left. Funny, that doesn't seem to happen on the right when they rejoice tragic events befalling the left. Did anyone over there explain, for example, how Ted Kennedy has hurt society? They couldn't do it if they even had the decency to try, because the Kennedys have endlessly helped the world to be a better place. Angry white males may "resent" the Kennedys' contributions in a misplaced sort of way, but they can't really criticize without resorting to cheap personal attacks. They don't give two hoots about MJ Kopechne, any more than they do about Michael Dutton Douglas.
I don't think anyone on this blog hates the person in Bizzy's link, by the way. Why would they?
I feel like I am beating my head against the wall. My intent was never to open up a debate on Senator Helms record or life. My point is that when someone we may dislike passes we can take the high road or we can take the low road...and when someone of note passes and the post is entitled "hell is a little more crowded today" then that person has chosen the low road. I guess I'm not even saying to respect the dead, but death itself. It will come to those we love as well as those we hate.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 12:15pm.
You're entitled to be as offended as you choose to be, and to say so. But others are entitled not to share your sensibilities. I've slept on it, re-read what was said yesterday, and darned if I don't I agree with Bbeanster -- Hell ain't hot enough.
Is this different cut and paste of the same piece, or do they send out two different versions, or do they send it out as a kit, some assembly required?
At any rate, the MDT report is pretty typical. They know their audience. Rebel flags will be flying at half mast in Blount Co.
“It’s just incredible that he would die on July 4th, the same day of the Declaration of Independence and the same day that Thomas Jefferson and John Adams died, and he certainly is a patriot in the mold of those great men,” said former North Carolina GOP Rep. Bill Cobey.
Comparing Helms to Adams and Jefferson? Puke. The only similarity is the antipathy toward blacks that he shared with Jefferson. Rot in hell you racist homophobe.
Submitted by ANGRYWOLF on Sat, 2008/07/05 - 1:01pm.
and accused liberals of being haters...
There are far more conservatives who hate than liberals.
And yes Jessie was a racist bigot..still I wouldn't wish hell for anybody.
His fate is up to God at judgement day like it is for all of us.
Heck, I will probably be dropped into the fiery furnace with Jessie, albeit for far different reasons than his for being there.Smile.
And you have to remember that Jessie had family and friends who loved him and who are grieving for him at this moment..so please keep their suffering in mind.
That was a very unkind thing to say. Maybe you should think twice before you post.
He was a racist SOB. That doesn't change because he's dead.
I actually thought about it for about three hours before I posted. This is a man who said this in 1995:
"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."
...and this of the University of North Carolina in 1950:
"The University of Negroes and Communists"
...and this in 1956:
"To rob the Negro of his reputation of thinking through a problem in his own fashion is about the same as trying to pretend that he doesn't have a natural instinct for rhythm and for singing and dancing."
...and this, explaining why he wouldn't vote for a woman for a cabinet post:
"She's a damn lesbian. I am not going to put a lesbian in a position like that. If you want to call me a bigot, fine."
...and this in 1968, when told that Duke University students were holding a vigil for the assassinated Martin Luther King, Jr.:
"They should ask their parents if it would be all right for their son or daughter to marry a Negro."
...and this, in 1999, introducing anti-Gay Rights Bill into the Senate:
"This bill attempts to make sure that President Clinton is not allowed to do by Executive Order what Congress has declined to enact in the past two congressional sessions namely, to treat homosexuals as a special class protected under various titles of the Civil Rights Act of 1964."
No, I won't miss him even a little.
I heard that the President said something like "the nation lost a great patriot today." But all I could think was that the nation lost a mean, bitter old man today.
Death doesn't change the facts.
I will miss him at least as much as I miss Jerry Falwell.
Visit us at
The Home
Mean? Perhaps. Accurate? Without question.
I don't care if you like him or hate him, what he was or what he wasn't. "Hell is a little more crowded today"? That is just as offensive as those who said "Guess George Carlin is doing his stand up before God now".
Just don't like the "Glad they're dead" sentiment.
I don't see anything that can be taken as a "Glad he's dead", but I understand the quandary of what to say when a detestable person, who spouted more than his fair share of venom while he was alive, passes.
How about, "He left the world a better place."
;>)
Ed. Note: The headline was changed. It originally said "Hell is a little more crowded today."
Carry on.
I'm sorry. The tone of this whole conversation creeps me out.
"Hell is a little more crowded"....?
From the KNS "Helms and his wife, Dorothy, had two daughters and a son. They adopted the boy in 1962 after the child, 9 years old and suffering from cerebral palsy, said in a newspaper article that he wanted parents."
They adopted the boy in 1962 after the child, 9 years old and suffering from cerebral palsy, said in a newspaper article that he wanted parents
Perhaps he should have spent more time talking with his wife.
If nothing else, he will be remembered as a test case for a person's affection for free speech. I'm inclined to praise him for having the courage to speak his mind, but I don't want to mistake stupidity for courage.
Speech aside, many of his actions in the Senate were despicable, and he was given far more power than he deserved. One of the most valuable benefits of free speech is the open display of stupidity. It was his party allowing him to rise to the front bench that was the real problem, not Helms' tongue. A party that can not be trusted to filter its own dregs is a party that should not be trusted with votes.
I wish more conservatives had the courage to "call a spade a spade," as David Oatney said of Helms. Conservatives' stay-in-line, follow-along tendencies are what make them obey the edicts of "political correctness." They should just say nigger if nigger is what they mean, but instead of being defiant, they whine. Conservatives just lost their last, best rebel.
And Adolph Hitler loved dogs.
So?
Here's Todd Rundgren's tribute to Jesse.
It's must-see TV.
Link...
So now he's Hitler? I don't know if he's moved up or down on some of your lists.
I am just astounded by this conversation. The point I am trying to make is whether you agree or disagree with Helms to say "hell is a little more crowded..." and rejoice at his death is wrong. If your opinion is that he hated people and you believe that was wrong then how can you say it is okay to hate him?
I guess I'll move along. I can't understand this way of thinking. Apparently the moderator found it not so tolerable as well or he wouldn't have changed the title.
Oh and by the way, Tammy Faye Bakker and her husband took money from little old ladies on a fixed income so she could have gold faucets in her bathtub. But she was a good old broad and will be missed. Didn't I read that around here somewhere?
Yep.
She had a greedy streak, for which she was appropriately punished by losing most everything she had and being held up to public ridicule. Jesse's being hailed as a "patriot" by the president.
Tammy Faye was never hateful and I never heard of her calling anyone names or wishing harm on those with whom she disagreed.
Jesse was full of hate and appealed to haters. Hell ain't hot enough for people like him.
I don't "rejoice in his death." But I'm not going to say good things about him just because he's dead.
I hope there were people who loved him because by all appearances he was a mean, intolerant ole bastard.
Calling people names=not ok.
Theft and greed=ok.
Okay.
I am not defending Senator Helms. That still is not my point.
Just to say, when the sad day comes that we lose Senator Kennedy there will be a great outcry from those who will say "He killed that girl and we're glad he's dead and hell ain't hot enough" and on and on and on.
And on that day, we here will be disgusted, outraged and indignant, just as I was when Carlin died and the folks over at KNS made their remarks about how he could do his little stand up before God now.
I hope that day is long into the future. But when it comes just remember what ol' Bizzy is trying to say to you today.
If we believe in tolerance then we should set a better example.
Here's the difference, Bizzy:
Wingnuts are already gloating over Ted Kennedy's illness. You can find it on most any of their websites. It's there. And actually, you can find it in other places, too, come to think of it -- check the hard-core "PUMA" websites. Bunch of them were and still are doing advance rejoicing. Heck, the Guerilla Women were celebrating Tim Russert's death, too. And the wingnuts don't hate Teddy because of he left Mary Jo Kopechne in the drink -- they hate him because he is a Kennedy. And a liberal. The GWs, of course, hate him because he didn't back their candidate.
OTOH, it was common knowledge that Jesse Helms was in failing health. I haven't seen a soul eagerly anticipating his demise. I'm not going to pretend that I'm sorry that he's shuffled off this earthly coil, and I'm not going to pretend that I'm sorry that I'm not sorry. Heck -- we all die, and he lived a long and comfortable life. The only thing I regret about the timing of this event is that he's not going to see Obama elected president.
Athough it's hard to get a feel for folks who insist on remaining anonymous, I've always liked you, and I am a little disappointed to see you pretending for the sake of making your point that that Jesse's hate speech -- bad as it was -- was his worst sin -- or that I called him Hitler, for that matter.
I didn't hate Jesse because he was a conservative. I despised him because he opposed every single civil rights measure that ever came down the pipeline, and he had the power to do more than just talk about it. He filibustered against anti-lynching legislation, for crap's sake. He was personally vengeful and bigoted and he imposed his crabbed view of the way things ought to be on the world for just as long as he could pin on his Depends and totter out to work in the morning. I wish we could ask Emmitt Till's mother who offends her more -- Jesse or Tammy Faye. But she died after waiting more than 50 years for justice, so I'll just have to guess what she'd think.
Jesse was infinitely worse than Bobby Byrd or Strom Thurmond or George Wallace, who all publicly repented late in life and made significant attempts to set things right. Jesse Helms never, ever did. As recently as 2005, when he published his memoirs, he said "We will never know how integration might have been achieved in neighborhoods across our land, because the opportunity was snatched away by outside agitators who had their own agendas to advance. We certainly do know the price paid by the stirring of hatred, the encouragement of violence, the suspicion and distrust.”
I haven't heard that language since the 1950s. Ol' Jesse didn't change a whit.
And those outside agitators like Emmitt Till or the three boys buried in that earthen dam in Philadelphia Mississippi had it coming to them. And so does Jesse, if there is indeed a price to be paid in the Great Beyond.
And that is that I was completely shocked to see the original title of the post. I admit I took offense to it. I honestly don't care if anyone liked or didn't like Senator Helms or what he was or wasn't. But you have to admit the tone became very mean-spirited. I just don't like to see people reduced to that level of discussion no matter what side it is. 'Taint civilized.
I guess I expect a little more gentleness from the folks here than what I see on the KNS site and if you perceive Senator Helms as a hater, you don't match hate with hate.
Heck, I don't even hate this guy...
Link...
Facts obtained by Observation are not hate. Things...and people... are what they are.
I'm not sad that Helms is dead. I am, and have been on several occaisions, saddened by what he did with his life.
Having the power to build bridges...he built walls.
Nice post, Betty. Every time one of these events occurs, there are a handful of thoughtful people who take the time to sort out the reasons for all the resulting rancor coming from the left. Funny, that doesn't seem to happen on the right when they rejoice tragic events befalling the left. Did anyone over there explain, for example, how Ted Kennedy has hurt society? They couldn't do it if they even had the decency to try, because the Kennedys have endlessly helped the world to be a better place. Angry white males may "resent" the Kennedys' contributions in a misplaced sort of way, but they can't really criticize without resorting to cheap personal attacks. They don't give two hoots about MJ Kopechne, any more than they do about Michael Dutton Douglas.
I don't think anyone on this blog hates the person in Bizzy's link, by the way. Why would they?
I feel like I am beating my head against the wall. My intent was never to open up a debate on Senator Helms record or life. My point is that when someone we may dislike passes we can take the high road or we can take the low road...and when someone of note passes and the post is entitled "hell is a little more crowded today" then that person has chosen the low road. I guess I'm not even saying to respect the dead, but death itself. It will come to those we love as well as those we hate.
Why is that so hard to understand?
You're entitled to be as offended as you choose to be, and to say so. But others are entitled not to share your sensibilities. I've slept on it, re-read what was said yesterday, and darned if I don't I agree with Bbeanster -- Hell ain't hot enough.
Helms himself said that others "would have to describe his legacy." I think that's pretty much what we're doing here.
Check out the slants on these two takes by the same AP reporter in the local papers:
Maryville Daily Times
Knoxville News Sentinel
Is this different cut and paste of the same piece, or do they send out two different versions, or do they send it out as a kit, some assembly required?
At any rate, the MDT report is pretty typical. They know their audience. Rebel flags will be flying at half mast in Blount Co.
From the MDT-
Comparing Helms to Adams and Jefferson? Puke. The only similarity is the antipathy toward blacks that he shared with Jefferson. Rot in hell you racist homophobe.
and accused liberals of being haters...
There are far more conservatives who hate than liberals.
And yes Jessie was a racist bigot..still I wouldn't wish hell for anybody.
His fate is up to God at judgement day like it is for all of us.
Heck, I will probably be dropped into the fiery furnace with Jessie, albeit for far different reasons than his for being there.Smile.
And you have to remember that Jessie had family and friends who loved him and who are grieving for him at this moment..so please keep their suffering in mind.
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