Submitted by RayCapps on Tue, 2008/04/29 - 6:39pm.
By this reasoning, after assuring someone they have the right to remain silent, police are free to make the exercise of that right extraordinarily uncomfortable and whatever they compel someone to say to relieve said discomfort is admissable. Oh, but I guess you can still get them for assault and/or battery if they actually touch you. Sick. Absolutely sick. Hard to believe I've lived to hear a member of the SCOTUS say something like that.
The experience of men like John McCain should prove to anyone that the value of "intelligence" gained under torture is questionable at best. Torture, to my knowledge, has only been successful in extracting a confessoin to whatever it is you want someone to confess to or to start naming anyone who comes to mind as accomplices just to make it stop. It's not noted for its ability to obtain reliable data. There's no justification for torture, not morally or as a means of expeditiously gaining reliable intelligence.
But come on, indirectly implying that John McCain approves of torture (referencing the "vote for McCain" comment) isn't very fair, now is it? I mean, John McCain, better than anyone posting on this board, REALLY knows what torture means. Shit, I said something nice about McCain. I suppose I should get ready for a Factchecker post accusing me of being McCain's man or something.
McCain will appoint similar "conservatives" to the bench. He won't have a torture "litmus" test. He will have a "dance with the conservatives who brung me to get reelected" litmus test.
Submitted by RayCapps on Tue, 2008/04/29 - 7:05pm.
I just don't think the subject would come up before the SCOTUS, not for any actions of a McCain Administration. John McCain endured years of torture - real, live, no crap, regular physical and mental torture. Some life experiences go deeper than ideology or politics. I just can't agree with your projection of his actions. Nothing he has said or done has ever in any way condoned the actions of the Bush Administration on this subject. Everything's been entirely to the contrary. I don't have a window into the man's real beliefs and values. Maybe you do. Just seemed a little crass accusing a man who's endured torture of embracing torture, without any quote from him supporting that notion, you know? Whether or not I agree with your assumption, I'm voting Obama in November. My mind is made up on that. I'm not even entertaining the possibility of a Clinton/McCain race any more.
At any rate, I believe we are all well aware of McCain's honorable service record and no one is attacking it, so you can climb down off your moral high horse now.
(P.S. The "line of thinking" referred to in the original post is interpreting the Constitution in whatever way is convenient to advance the Bush/Neocon agenda, which McCain would most certainly perpetuate.)
Submitted by RayCapps on Tue, 2008/04/29 - 9:32pm.
I adore history but have never heard anything about this. Are you referring to the Forrestal fire of '67 (or was it '68? too sleepy to look it up). My understanding was that it was caused by an accidental launch of a rocket owing to a poorly shielded wire (EM triggered launch) on a rocket. Maybe this is something else altogether? My father served on the USS Hancock a few years earlier (Cuban Missile Crisis), so things of that nature have a certain special interest to me.
Submitted by RayCapps on Tue, 2008/04/29 - 9:25pm.
Including an outrageous quote by a member of the SCOTUS about torture and saying, if you vote for McCain, this is what you'll get sure seemed like it was going there to me. If it was, rather, only your intent to suggest McCain would support conservative supreme court justices, then I misinterpreted your remarks and am sorry. Oh, and he most certainly would nominate conservative supreme court justices.
Ray, maybe you didn't click on the first link Randy posted; the story covers McCain's recent vote in the Senate to sanction the use of torture by the CIA.
McCain seems pretty much in favor of it now, his comments in the past notwithstanding. If anyone votes for McCain, they're voting for a continuation of Bush's torture policies, since McCain has openly supported them (and they're voting to appoint Supreme Court justices like Scalia, who seems to spend way too much time watching "24").
Submitted by RayCapps on Tue, 2008/04/29 - 11:59pm.
Ray, maybe you didn't click on the first link Randy posted; the story covers McCain's recent vote in the Senate to sanction the use of torture by the CIA.
To say someone supports or opposes anything based upon the title and stated purpose of any major congressional bill is so fraught with conjecture I didn't bother to comment on it. What was that insulting anti-gay rights bill called, "Defense of Family Act" or some such? So voting for it means you love mommies and daddies and voting against it means you want to break up every traditional nuclear family left? Oh please. Why did McCain say he vote against the bill? Check the NY Times for his response:
Mr. McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, has led the battle in recent years on a number of bills to end torture by the United States. He said he voted against the bill Wednesday because legislation he had helped to pass already prohibits the C.I.A. from “cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment.”
Mr. McCain, of Arizona, said he believed it would be a mistake to limit C.I.A. interrogators to using only those techniques that were enumerated in the Field Manual, which he noted was a public document.
“When we passed the Military Commissions Act, we said that the C.I.A. should have the ability to use additional techniques,” Mr. McCain told reporters Friday in Oshkosh, Wis. “None of those techniques would entail violating the Detainee Treatment Act, which said that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment are prohibited.”
McCain doesn't want the CIA's interrogation techniques limited by the contents of a public document. That would mean our enemies can prepare to deal with all the specific forms of interrogation permitted to the CIA. Whether or not you agree with his reasoning, it's hard to argue it's because he supports torture. It's also clearly noted McCain helped force previous pieces of legislation on the Bush Administration to ban the use of torture by the CIA.
I think, however, the human rights advcates have a valid argument here:
The problem, human rights advocates say, is that disagreement remains over which tactics are prohibited. Mr. McCain, for example, said waterboarding — a simulated drowning technique — was an illegal form of torture. But while the C.I.A. says it no longer uses waterboarding, the Bush administration has not ruled out its use in the future.
“It’s disappointing,” said Jennifer Daskal, a senior counsel at Human Rights Watch, “that Senator McCain, who has long made it clear that Congress had intended to outlaw abusive interrogation techniques including waterboarding, won’t stand up to an administration that continues to say waterboarding is O.K. in certain circumstances.”
I agree the techniques allowed to the CIA in interrogating prisoners ought to be enumerated, but McCain's concern about this being a public document carries some water with me. The obvious solution would be a compromise that enumerates the techniques, but does so in a document not accessible by the FOIA. Wonder why that didn't happen once it became clear the bill wouldn't pass and would be vetoed if it did? Was this bill a poison pill crafted to force a Bush Veto on a Torture Bill in an election year? I honestly don't know.
But surely you see that claiming McCain now supports torture because of a specific issue with one particular bill is a bit of stretch?
I would now like to conclude my defense of John McCain. I'm not really the best qualified person to offer it. Surely someone reads this board who actually plans to vote for McCain?
He's totally against the 14th amendment (as he is for most others) except when it serves Dubya. How can one man become so twisted in his thinking that he can justify anything? Why would he torture himself so? I thought all "devout" Catholics obeyed the Pope so why the support for the death penalty and support for the war, etc?
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Pope and Scalia: Neither the prohibition on the death penalty nor the Catholic opposition to the war carry the weight of being spoken ex cathedra. Think of it as sort of like asking not telling. Also, as a secular not-humanist (hee!) who is the father of a family of Catholics, I have learned that you can go once or twice a year and say "Forgive me, father..."
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Can do.
Wait. I thought you hated activist judges.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
By this reasoning, after assuring someone they have the right to remain silent, police are free to make the exercise of that right extraordinarily uncomfortable and whatever they compel someone to say to relieve said discomfort is admissable. Oh, but I guess you can still get them for assault and/or battery if they actually touch you. Sick. Absolutely sick. Hard to believe I've lived to hear a member of the SCOTUS say something like that.
The experience of men like John McCain should prove to anyone that the value of "intelligence" gained under torture is questionable at best. Torture, to my knowledge, has only been successful in extracting a confessoin to whatever it is you want someone to confess to or to start naming anyone who comes to mind as accomplices just to make it stop. It's not noted for its ability to obtain reliable data. There's no justification for torture, not morally or as a means of expeditiously gaining reliable intelligence.
But come on, indirectly implying that John McCain approves of torture (referencing the "vote for McCain" comment) isn't very fair, now is it? I mean, John McCain, better than anyone posting on this board, REALLY knows what torture means. Shit, I said something nice about McCain. I suppose I should get ready for a Factchecker post accusing me of being McCain's man or something.
McCain will appoint similar "conservatives" to the bench. He won't have a torture "litmus" test. He will have a "dance with the conservatives who brung me to get reelected" litmus test.
I just don't think the subject would come up before the SCOTUS, not for any actions of a McCain Administration. John McCain endured years of torture - real, live, no crap, regular physical and mental torture. Some life experiences go deeper than ideology or politics. I just can't agree with your projection of his actions. Nothing he has said or done has ever in any way condoned the actions of the Bush Administration on this subject. Everything's been entirely to the contrary. I don't have a window into the man's real beliefs and values. Maybe you do. Just seemed a little crass accusing a man who's endured torture of embracing torture, without any quote from him supporting that notion, you know? Whether or not I agree with your assumption, I'm voting Obama in November. My mind is made up on that. I'm not even entertaining the possibility of a Clinton/McCain race any more.
Just seemed a little crass accusing a man who's endured torture of embracing torture
Seems a little crass to accuse me of this when I didn't. But since you seem to want to go there:
Link...
Link...
Link...
At any rate, I believe we are all well aware of McCain's honorable service record and no one is attacking it, so you can climb down off your moral high horse now.
(P.S. The "line of thinking" referred to in the original post is interpreting the Constitution in whatever way is convenient to advance the Bush/Neocon agenda, which McCain would most certainly perpetuate.)
It is true that John McCain almost singlehandedly sank the USS Forrestal while pulling a prank on a fellow aviator.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
I adore history but have never heard anything about this. Are you referring to the Forrestal fire of '67 (or was it '68? too sleepy to look it up). My understanding was that it was caused by an accidental launch of a rocket owing to a poorly shielded wire (EM triggered launch) on a rocket. Maybe this is something else altogether? My father served on the USS Hancock a few years earlier (Cuban Missile Crisis), so things of that nature have a certain special interest to me.
Including an outrageous quote by a member of the SCOTUS about torture and saying, if you vote for McCain, this is what you'll get sure seemed like it was going there to me. If it was, rather, only your intent to suggest McCain would support conservative supreme court justices, then I misinterpreted your remarks and am sorry. Oh, and he most certainly would nominate conservative supreme court justices.
Ray, maybe you didn't click on the first link Randy posted; the story covers McCain's recent vote in the Senate to sanction the use of torture by the CIA.
McCain seems pretty much in favor of it now, his comments in the past notwithstanding. If anyone votes for McCain, they're voting for a continuation of Bush's torture policies, since McCain has openly supported them (and they're voting to appoint Supreme Court justices like Scalia, who seems to spend way too much time watching "24").
~Russ
To say someone supports or opposes anything based upon the title and stated purpose of any major congressional bill is so fraught with conjecture I didn't bother to comment on it. What was that insulting anti-gay rights bill called, "Defense of Family Act" or some such? So voting for it means you love mommies and daddies and voting against it means you want to break up every traditional nuclear family left? Oh please. Why did McCain say he vote against the bill? Check the NY Times for his response:
Link...
Salient point:
McCain doesn't want the CIA's interrogation techniques limited by the contents of a public document. That would mean our enemies can prepare to deal with all the specific forms of interrogation permitted to the CIA. Whether or not you agree with his reasoning, it's hard to argue it's because he supports torture. It's also clearly noted McCain helped force previous pieces of legislation on the Bush Administration to ban the use of torture by the CIA.
I think, however, the human rights advcates have a valid argument here:
I agree the techniques allowed to the CIA in interrogating prisoners ought to be enumerated, but McCain's concern about this being a public document carries some water with me. The obvious solution would be a compromise that enumerates the techniques, but does so in a document not accessible by the FOIA. Wonder why that didn't happen once it became clear the bill wouldn't pass and would be vetoed if it did? Was this bill a poison pill crafted to force a Bush Veto on a Torture Bill in an election year? I honestly don't know.
But surely you see that claiming McCain now supports torture because of a specific issue with one particular bill is a bit of stretch?
I would now like to conclude my defense of John McCain. I'm not really the best qualified person to offer it. Surely someone reads this board who actually plans to vote for McCain?
Scalia is a sick, sick man.
He's totally against the 14th amendment (as he is for most others) except when it serves Dubya. How can one man become so twisted in his thinking that he can justify anything? Why would he torture himself so? I thought all "devout" Catholics obeyed the Pope so why the support for the death penalty and support for the war, etc?
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Pope and Scalia: Neither the prohibition on the death penalty nor the Catholic opposition to the war carry the weight of being spoken ex cathedra. Think of it as sort of like asking not telling. Also, as a secular not-humanist (hee!) who is the father of a family of Catholics, I have learned that you can go once or twice a year and say "Forgive me, father..."
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
And to some members of Opus Dei, torture isn't so much a punishment as it is a sacrament.
____________________________
"It's gettin' so a businessman can't expect no return from a fixed fight. Now, if you can't trust a fix, what can you trust?"
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