[Roundtree's] proposal would not only ban the use of cellphones for Commissioners, but the way the resolution is written it would ban the use of cellphones by those in attendance in the Large Assembly Room. It would even ban the use of the phones at the media table that are provided by Knox County and the Public Building Authority.

(Link...)

Interestingly, the article also cites another possible Open Meetings Act violation, but I assume Brian is (again...) wrong and that Elaine is simply citing the something that came up at the regular, scheduled, and public Agenda meeting on April 9.

I know that if I were up there and had to suffer through a few hours of grandstanding, I'd be trading a few SMS messages with the wife and kids. I do understand the intent, but it all wraps up in the same issue of the public records issue. Rather than ban them, we just need a process to make public those communications relating to county business and that are a work product of the elected official.

19
vote
BH's picture

We reported

what Commissioner Davis stated on the radio. She stated that Commissioner Rountree informed her of his intention and she informed him that she has a type II diabetic child and could not be without her phone.

She did not say where the conversation happened. However, there has been NO public meeting where this proposal has been discussed.

If you would like you can visit (link...) and listen to archived shows and listen for yourself.

BTW, Steve a Reno. It was noticed that you did not attend the fourth district forum. That would have been a great opportunity to hear what your potential constituents think and believe on reforming county governemnt. Ed Shouse, your Republican opponent was there. Finbarr Saunders and Ruthie Kulhman were there. Obviously, they care what the citizens of district 4 think and believe. But not so much for Steve of Reform4.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

The venue I assumed

My own assumption as to where the conversation between Rountree and Davis took place was that it occured at one of the many district-level forums now taking place on the charter amendements.

Those are all public meetings, although maybe they're not on the schedule kept by the commission office.

I know both these parties have been attending them, and that residents and commissioners alike stand around talking afterward...

BH's picture

Tamara:

not all Commissioners stand around and talk at these venues. Commissioner DeFreese refuses to have one on one sidebar conversations with Commissioners at these venues (Charter forums) and even her own press conference that she held recently.

For the record, I like Elaine Davis. I wish she had ran as a Republican or against Drevik. I have no reason to dislike Rountree, I have seen him around the city - county building for years. I attended a recent Karns Republican Club to show support for "Milo".

I think this resolution is not a well thought out proposal and obviously from Tamara's suggestions below, she would concur that he has not truly thought out all possibilities for this resolution.

So, throw this one out. Get a few citizens together along with Tamara and bring something back that addresses every possible scenario and include School Board, MPC and all committees and boards within Knox County.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Conceded

Brian: "not all Commissioners stand around and talk at these venues."

No, I guess they don't. I didn't mean to seem to defend these "sidebars."

I hung around afterward speaking one-on-one with some folks, including commissioners, at our 6th district forum on charter amendments. At that event, some of the commissioners were doing the same thing. Their/our actions seemed innocent enough, but as you point out, problems like the one Davis may find herself in do arise.

DeFreese probably has the right idea to just bolt.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Thinking further about those "sidebars"...

I said: "DeFreese probably has the right idea to just bolt."

Or maybe since meetings like the district-level ones on charter amendments have already been "sunshined," commissioners ARE free to hang around afterward, even if they should speak to one another?

Is it the case that the responsibility is media's to leave the room last? Or does "adjourned" mean "adjourned?"

I really don't know...

SteveMule's picture

Oh!!

Brian, is in a Snippy Snap mood!

Take Care, Be Good and don't play in the street!

SteveMule

reform4's picture

Thanks for noticing, Brian...

I believe I had stated on my blog and to several media folks that I wouldn't be attending because I had already committed to attend an EPA air quality conference in Portland. My campaign manager and senior adviser attended at my request. The point of such a meeting was to hear from the citizens, not to campaign (so having my advisors to report was sufficient for me, and allowed me to attend a very important conference on an issue that will become critical to Knox County.

(Believe me, if I could have flown the redeye and gotten back for the meeting, I would have).

My viewpoints on the Charter amendments are well-published on my blog (reform4.blogspot.com) and I have cited in detail my views to Political Knoxville, Ftn City Focus, the Shopper, and on the air on The Voice. There is no mystery, I'm an open book.

-----------------------------------------
Fighting for Reform and Representation, Fourth District
Steve Drevik, Commission Seat 4-B
(link...)

Tamara Shepherd's picture

I support the ban--and would expand it

As to Rountree's proposal to ban cell phones during commission meetings, I support it.

What's more, I would suggest expanding the proposal to ban elected officials' use of any electronic devices (including Blackberries and laptops) for communication purposes during public meetings, and I would expand it to become part of the county's Ethics Policy, so that it applies to all public bodies. This approach would not require banning constituents' or media's use of same during public meetings.

I am aware of allegations that a commissioner received cell phone calls from a constituent in the audience during the evening commission discussed forming a Charter Review Committee.

I am also aware of allegations that two school board members routinely discuss public business privately, from the dais, using their Blackberries during their public meetings.

It seems to me that these actions are the equivalent of commissioners stepping into that back room to discuss public business privately during meetings.

On this question of live blogging during meetings, I've certainly appreciated Commissioner Harmon's live reports (I didn't know Lambert had been offering the same), but I suppose that really is the task of media, not the elected officials themselves.

There's an argument to be made that two-way conversation with constituents sometimes takes place in the course of their live blogging, and also that their full attention should be on discussion among members of the elected body, not discussion with constituents...

Concerns like Davis's, that her family needs to be able to contact her during an emergency, might be answered by allowing the elected body's recording secretary to receive calls during meetings. Jolie on commission or Janice Meyers on the school board could serve as intermediaries.

Given CTV, video streaming, and live blogging from media (and independent bloggers), we interested onlookers might still get up-to-the-minute information, and feel better assured that we're not missing out on private discussions going on publicly, too.

Anonymously Nine's picture

Never enough is it?

Is everything a thought crime to you Tamara? Your vision of government reminds me of the Terry Gilliam movie Brazil. You missed your calling, you should be a government bureaucrat.

metulj's picture

Oh, God. The Digit, again,

Oh, God. The Digit, again, using tools not suited for the purpose. For those kind readers who don't know, # 9 did not know (and probably still refuses to believe it) that George Orwell was a pseudonym. The Phallacious Pharaoh of Pharragut is a poor source for cultural references.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Anonymously Nine's picture

Butterfly, the Phallacious

Butterfly, the Phallacious Pharaoh of Pharragut would be Mike Ragsdale.

Keep up.

metulj's picture

Weak. Still. True happiness

Weak. Still.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Anonymously Nine's picture

If the activists for "Open

If the activists for "Open Government" have their way will it soon look like this?

(link...)

This new Open Government doesn't seem very efficient. Nor as representative. Why would anyone want to serve in local government under these "Monkey House" rules?

So far the progress on "Open Government" has just made the Executive Branch of Knox County Government and the professional lobbyist stronger while disenfranchising individual citizens. You have to wonder if that was part of the motivation.

The Sunshine Law used to be about deliberation, now thanks to Fansler et al is has grown to communication. Once again, these are Monkey House rules.

If you think the County Mayor or the lobbyist are on a level playing filed with regular people you are not paying attention. District seatmates should be able to work together with District constituents. This recent move to turn Commissioners into Jurors does not make better government. It basically makes every First Reading a rubber stamp. The County Mayor and lobbyist are not covered under the Sunshine Law.

If all this so called "Open Government" is so wonderful why is it the State of Tennessee and the Federal Government will have no part of it? Why don't they have these same rules? Because they are smart enough to know government cannot function without communication.

Politics is a necessary evil. If you think you can outlaw Politics you don't understand government.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Glad to hear it

Nine: "If all this so called "Open Government" is so wonderful why is it the State of Tennessee and the Federal Government will have no part of it? Why don't they have these same rules?"

So pleased to hear you concede that in local government, there are rules.

Rachel's picture

The County Mayor and

The County Mayor and lobbyist are not covered under the Sunshine Law.

How exactly would you "sunshine" the Mayor? Commission makes sense in that they are a legislative body that jointly makes decisions. I'm not arguing that the Mayor shouldn't run an open and transparent administration; I just don't see exactly how you would apply the OMA to him/her.

If all this so called "Open Government" is so wonderful why is it the State of Tennessee and the Federal Government will have no part of it?

It's disgraceful that the State legislature is exempt from the Act. They shouldn't be.

Anonymously Nine's picture

The circle is complete now.

The circle is complete now.

Rachel's picture

The circle is complete now.

The circle is complete now.

Well, that's clear as mud.

metulj's picture

Remember you are part of the

Remember you are part of the collectivist conspiracy to take guns and put fluoride in water.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

knoxvillian's picture

there is a big differnece

there is a big differnece between open government in remote areas and the county of knox...yes, it can work and does work

bill young's picture

BH

I like Elaine also.

I may not always agree with Elaine.

For example I supported a Charter Review Committee.
Elaine did not.

But I had no problem with her vote..after all she's got
one & I dont.

I believe Elaine Davis is doing a great job.

BH I'm going to fight like hell to keep her
because Democrats need folks like Elaine Davis!!

BH's picture

I agree

with Elaine, also. In case you missed it she made the case against Rountree's resolution. A very good arguement, I might add. That would put Elaine and I on teh same side on this issue.

You Democrats let her down in 2006 and unfortunately for Elaine, Finbarr got in the race and was supported by a few more Democrats than she had. Republicans were fighting it out in our primary and Elaine narrowly lost her primary race.

I believe that I can make a better case for Elaine leaving her current party, than any case that you can make.

bill young's picture

Elaine

It was a hotly contested primary but time
heals the wounds of a political contest.

My case will be simple.

Democrats like Elaine because she's a straight
shooter.

Democrats are proud that Elaine's on commission.

Democrats are ready willing & able to support
Elaine.

Elaine is right where she needs to be

A Democrat on commission.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Talked to Bob

I phoned Bob a while ago to ask about his resolution. He said it's his understanding that the law department is drafting one per his request, but that he hasn't yet seen it. He explained, though, that it was not his intention to bar constituents or anyone in the audience from using cell phones.

He also explained that his proposed resolution wasn't motivated by Open Meetings considerations so much as by his occassional inability to hear discussions during meetings when other commissioners are speaking on cell phones. He explained that he has some hearing loss in one ear from having worked around jet engines and firearms for many years.

Bob also suggested that if commissioners can all hear adequately, maybe they won't need to ask as many questions, and meetings could move along a little more quickly. (Seems to me like they wouldn't need to ask so many questions if they were paying attention to the meeting, rather than talking on cell phones, too!)

Whether or not his resolution was motivated by Open Meetings considerations, though, I personally think it's a valid topic to be raised.

scottfrith's picture

Banning paper and pencil

Let's also ban paper and pencil to prevent those sneaky politicians from passing notes among themselves or the audience...

(please note sarcasm)

In all seriousness, a government will reflect the integrity of the people you elect. If you don't trust your Commissioner with a cell phone (which for many would be a device that includes a calendar, email, etc), you should probably get a new Commissioner.

BH's picture

For once

I agree with Scott Frith

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Good business etiquette, too

Scott: "Let's also ban paper and pencil to prevent those sneaky politicians from passing notes among themselves or the audience...(please note sarcasm)"

I dunno, Scott (and Brian)--I don't think "politicians" should be passing notes among themselves during a public meeting, either.

If I understand Bob's proposed resolution correctly, he isn't suggesting commissioners shouldn't carry cell phones (or pencil and paper) into meetings, only that they shouldn't be using them to communicate among themselves (or anyone else) during the meeting. Considerations of Open Meetings law aside, that's just good business etiquette.

And as to passing notes between "politicians" and constituents during meetings, I'd have to say that's probably improper, too--even though I've been guilty of that, myself.

During that contentious school board meeting last spring on the system wide rezoning, I recall (with a cringe) that I twice approached the dais to hand notes to Buttry and Bratton.

In retrospect, I have to concede that my window of opportunity to lobby school board members on the issue had likely closed when the meeting began, save one last opp at the podium during public forum.

Personally, I'm willing to impose this correct rule of behavior on myself, too.

BH's picture

Tamara:

You are missing the point. It is not inappropriate for you (a constituent) to communicate with Bratton and Buttry during the or a meeting. You are their boss, you should be allowed to communicate with them.

Here is a hypothical example that would be inappropriate, let's say the 4th district school board member uses his device and then nods to the school board chair and she picks up her device during the meeting within seconds of one another and after reviewing he device she grins or nods back, kind of like message received. That would be inappropriate if it happened.

It was a lifesaver when a constituent called Commissioner DeFreese recently to inform her that the very first workshop on the proposed Charter Amendments was not being televised. She stopped the meeting in order to recess and they instantly flipped the tv cameras on. That is an appropriate form of cellphone communication with constituents during teh meeting.

My church has hearing devices for people that have hearing impairments. Maybe Knox County should invest in an amplified hearing device for Commissioner Rountree and any other Commissioners that may need them. Instead of imposing a rule on the other 18 commissioners and their constituents because one commissioner has a hearing problem.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

"Under the Big Top"

I still disagree on this question of when constituents should lobby their elected officials, Brian. I wouldn't expect to find that a constituent had somehow violated the Open Meetings Act for having phoned or slipped a note to an elected official during the meeting (although maybe...), but it's still rude and impulsive, at best.

Let's face it: The appropriate time to lobby one's elected official is before the meeting, during the citizen's forum, or afterward. During the meeting, constituents don't need to be traipsing on and off the dais, or sitting yards away phoning them. It creates a circus-like atmosphere.

I *do* agree with you, though, that your hypothetical example of communications between elected officials using Blackberries during a meeting is wrong. That *would* seem to be an OMA violation.

shannons's picture

integrity

This is what it is all about. Unfortunately, like cheating on a test, we need to oversee these elected officials and that is a sad state.

Pam Strickland's picture

Good Manners

It's just plain rude for people to be in any kind of meeting and talking on the phone instead of paying attention to the people around them. They've been called together for a purpose. In the case of county commission, they are being paid by our tax dollars. If they have something so important that it requires them to talk on the phone to someone else, perhaps they shouldn't attend the meeting. Or, perhaps they shouldn't be a commissioner.

Yes, there should be some kind of emergency exception to this general rule. But if you take a call, step away from the area where other people are talking. And, frankly, I would say it's more appropriate for a diabetic child and her caretakers to only be required to remember one number for mom. She shouldn't have to call the clerk in that situation.

But by keeping the phone on vibrate, the meeting should be able to proceed w/out interruption.

My cell phone is my only phone, but that doesn't mean that I must be compelled to answer it every time it rings. If I'm in church, a business meeting, in class, out to dinner, in a government hearing or any number of other situations, I can always let it go to voice mail. Then I can return the call at a more appropriate time. And, frankly, I think the world would be a much more civilized place, if other people did the same.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

Lisa Starbuck's picture

Changes to Commission Rules

I proposed changes to commission rules in this earlier thread after the very well-run and professional appointments meeting. My proposal would not only prohibit cell phone calls by commissioners during meetings but also stop back room recesses and lobbying by constituents and commissioners alike after the meeting gets started.

(link...)

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