Carlton Towers residents wishing for rent controls?
Submitted by bizgrrl on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 7:43am.
Carlton Towers, a 127-unit apartment building that's located at the corner of Sutherland Avenue and Forest Park Boulevard in Bearden.
...
will be renamed 414 Forest Park - will likely aim for a young-ish audience,
...Existing tenants will get a chance to stay in the building, but they'll have to dig into their wallets.
Taylor said average rents currently average about $690 a month, not including utilities, but will jump to around $830 a month after the renovations are completed.
There are many elderly people that live in Carlton Towers. How many of them will be able to cough up the approx. 20% rent increase? The location is perfect for them since it is centrally located with sidewalks and easy access to grocery stores, drug stores, etc. I am not sure this change is something to be boasting. I know, I know, free market! Wouldn't it have been nice if the owners allowed for attrition based on normal turnover? Who? What? The greatest generation? Nah.
Submitted by Mike Cohen on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 12:58pm.
I would assume that people who live there sign a lease. That sets the terms of what you pay and for how long. The idea that someone would buy the building, spend millions improving it and then eat the expense and lose money is crazy. The world doesn't work that way.
I live in the area and while I could be wrong (and often am) I don't see a lot of elderly going in and out of that building. I see far more at Cagle Terrace.
Access to Third Creek is indeed wonderful. I park near the abandoned Bi-Lo and walk that trail a couple of times a week. Plus there's a new Mexican restaurant about to open in the center.
I don't see a lot of elderly going in and out of that building.
I know someone who lives there and have visited them fairly often. I've seen quite a few elderly in the building. Maybe they have different hours than you. In addition, the elderly sit in the lobby, get their mail from the lobby area, go for groceries, etc. They're not real active. I do not know the percentage of elderly to middle-aged or younger in the building though.
Speaking of active, the Third Creek bike trail is not real beneficial to the elderly. But, alas, many of them will probably be out in a year or so (after their leases are up) and it won't really matter.
The idea that someone would buy the building, spend millions improving it and then eat the expense and lose money is crazy. The world doesn't work that way.
Well, duh. However, if they wanted to build community, they could work with the community. Ah, gentrification.
I lived in the Carlton back in 2000. There were quite a few elderly people living there. The population basically broke down into senior citizens and 20-somethings. You're right, the elderly residents did not get out much. Back then, a two-bedroom apartment cost $800 and included all utilities and cable, but you had to pay for your own phone. It was a nice place to live, quiet with a great view at night and a fun pool on the roof.
Submitted by Mike Cohen on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 2:53pm.
Yes, it is essentially empty. Glad to see the new restaurant coming in. Bi-Lo tried to enter the market and failed. When they pulled out they sold to Food City, which had a well established store already nearby. While it seems a shame to have it sit empty, an abandoned grocery store is not an easy space to fill. Given that it is fairly new, it becomes too expensive to buy it, tear it down and start over...you spend a lot of money for something you tear down. Luckily most of the ex Bi-Lo stores (Deane Hill, KPike near Ebeneezer) were converted to Food Citys. It's a tough problem to solve.
Submitted by Lisa Starbuck on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 2:59pm.
There's also a big empty Bi-Lo in Halls, soon to be an abandoned Wal-Mart in Halls, and of course, we can't forget the abandoned Target in Fountain City and the abandoned Circuit City beside Knoxville Center Mall. These are just a few I'm familiar with, I'm sure others could list many more.
It's a real shame that we allow this to happen and worse, that it somehow gets spun as "economic development" when we let them move from one place to another with no consequences for leaving behind a big empty box.
Submitted by Brian A. on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 7:50pm.
but simply from a pedestrian standpoint, it's a shame that the BiLo was the store that closed while the Kroger carries on.
The BiLo's location is closer to all the apartments and you don't have to cross Kingston Pike. It's much easier access for students and the people with limited mobility that inhabit the area.
Submitted by CathyMcCaughan on Thu, 2008/04/03 - 10:03am.
I don't expect the Target near the mall to stay open after the Super Target is built near Cedar Bluff. What if the store was responsible for the maintenance and safety of the property they leave behind until someone else moves into that property?
The empty Bi-Lo building would be a good location for a large indoor climbing center, a roller rink or a campus extension building.
Submitted by Lisa Starbuck on Fri, 2008/04/04 - 6:26pm.
Some communities require the big boxes to find another tenant before they let them close a store and move to a different location within a certain number of miles from the original.
As I've said before, both the Bearden Bi-Lo and Fountain City Target represent a real opportunity to do an anchor type development that will either establish a true "town center" or strengthen the historic one that currently exists. At one time, during the "Bearden Village" planning awhile back, there was talk of zoning changes similar to the form zoning approach being applied to the South Waterfront and Central/Broadway but the business community was lukewarm to the idea and it never gained traction. Which was too bad, if you ask me. In the interim, there have been several new developments and refurbs done in the area. And, while they certainly look better, they're still essentially strip malls behind those new brick veneers.
Submitted by Mike Cohen on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 3:53pm.
It's a problem, no doubt. You get some that are great re-uses: Nova in South Knoxville, Comcast on Asheville Highway. But there are more empty ones that re-filled and re-used ones, no doubt. I'm hopeful that the Bearden one has a big enough footprint to do some sort of mixed-use, but again..the cost of something recently built makes buying it and tearing it down very difficult economically. Lisa has some valid points...but in some cases, like Bi-Lo, someone just tried to enter the market and failed. No question as a community we need to try and find a better way to re-use these buildings. The Walgreens converted to a library is a great piece of design. It can be done.
Submitted by StaceyDiamond on Wed, 2008/04/02 - 5:08pm.
The same thing has happened through the years in other places out west, the Raillery and others were redone and rents were raised. The Carlton has always been quite reasonable for a apt. bldg with a roof top pool. I sued to live near it and like the atmosphere. I guess its got to keep up with the downtown luxury rents.
Submitted by Pamela Treacy on Sat, 2008/04/05 - 5:57pm.
We have a branch of El Mezcal in Farragut -- it’s my favorite Mexican after the one by Toys R Us. I used to go there once a week before I became more health and money focused. It's like a local pub. I always bumped into someone I know. At first they struggled, because most of the staff didn't speak English -- but everyone learned to communicate and business is always healhly. One of the few restaurants in Farragut that does well.
This discussion is very interesting about the big boxes. I am frustrated with seeing all these open spaces and new stuff being built -- and I am in commercial real estate. I would love to hear what the needs are for those communities with the big spaces. On the school overcrowding issue, we need to think out of the box and possible use some of the buildings as temporary classroom spaces -- before we decide to spend money to build new schools. I hear Halls is having an overcrowding problem. We need to convince the elected officals it is okay to lease. Many state government offices are leased and they don't have the expense of upkeep on the buildings.
I know that a health club looked at old Food City/Bilo space. Do you think that is a good spot for one?
Generally, if a grocery chain is still paying on the leases which is this case -- they will not allow a grocery store to come in. So you have to find another tenant who needs similar amount of space. It's costly to sub divide.
So much of the empty space you see is still paying rent to the owners until their leases run up which can be ten years or more. The tenant has the right to sublet. Since the money is coming in, the owner generally doesn't look for the replacement tenant. Most of the tenants don't want their competition in the area so they would rather pay the rent and leave the space vacant. That is way we need new uses like Comcast and Nova for these spaces.
I heard last week Target is not happening on the Sherril property by Cedar Bluff.
"Wal-Mart is one of the worst offenders. According to the latest tally from Sprawl-Busters, an organization that helps communities fight superstore sprawl, the United States is home to 380 empty Wal-Mart stores."
So I assume the number might be significantly larger now.
Also...
"Most abandoned stores remain vacant for many years. The buildings are unsuitable for much besides big-box retailing. National retailers generally prefer to maintain the lease rather than let the property fall into the hands of a competitor."
Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Mon, 2008/04/07 - 3:52pm.
actually, before it became the Bi-lo in Bearden, grocery chain Brunos acquired the property, including the dislocation of Parker Brothers hardware. Then Brunos execs died in a plane crash, in December 1991. Parker Brothers took the Shoney's building, and in the mid 1990s, I recall, fought to prevent the construction of a Home Depot over by Bill Rodgers Buick on Papermill.
Then Parker Brothers sold out to a big chain, Ace Hardware.
And therefore never send to know for whom the big box retailer tolls; It tolls for thee. (with apologies to John Donne).
Submitted by Mark Taylor (not verified) on Wed, 2008/04/09 - 1:10pm.
Bizgrrl, to answer your concern as the developer of The Carlton Towers we will be doing everything we can to accomodate any of the elderly folks (which there are actually only a few now, about 8-9% of the total population) that are there, even in providing assistance from a time and resource standpoint at our expense should they need to move to other housing. Your position that they will be put on the street in the name of gentrification is not true in the slightest, we plan to care for these folks in every way we possibly can.
I know some people who just moved in there. I bet they're bummed.
Not to mention being at the west end of the Third Creek Greenway, a bicycle boulevard to downtown.
Visit us at
The Home
I would assume that people who live there sign a lease. That sets the terms of what you pay and for how long. The idea that someone would buy the building, spend millions improving it and then eat the expense and lose money is crazy. The world doesn't work that way.
I live in the area and while I could be wrong (and often am) I don't see a lot of elderly going in and out of that building. I see far more at Cagle Terrace.
Access to Third Creek is indeed wonderful. I park near the abandoned Bi-Lo and walk that trail a couple of times a week. Plus there's a new Mexican restaurant about to open in the center.
I park near the abandoned Bi-Lo and walk that trail a couple of times a week. Plus there's a new Mexican restaurant about to open in the center.
That shopping center has been essentially empty for a while now. No potential tenants? It seems like a waste of space.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
I don't see a lot of elderly going in and out of that building.
I know someone who lives there and have visited them fairly often. I've seen quite a few elderly in the building. Maybe they have different hours than you. In addition, the elderly sit in the lobby, get their mail from the lobby area, go for groceries, etc. They're not real active. I do not know the percentage of elderly to middle-aged or younger in the building though.
Speaking of active, the Third Creek bike trail is not real beneficial to the elderly. But, alas, many of them will probably be out in a year or so (after their leases are up) and it won't really matter.
The idea that someone would buy the building, spend millions improving it and then eat the expense and lose money is crazy. The world doesn't work that way.
Well, duh. However, if they wanted to build community, they could work with the community. Ah, gentrification.
I lived in the Carlton back in 2000. There were quite a few elderly people living there. The population basically broke down into senior citizens and 20-somethings. You're right, the elderly residents did not get out much. Back then, a two-bedroom apartment cost $800 and included all utilities and cable, but you had to pay for your own phone. It was a nice place to live, quiet with a great view at night and a fun pool on the roof.
I saw the sign for the restaurant. Isn't it Mezcal, or El Mezcal? Wonder if is the same as the El Mezcal in Farragut...
I've parked there to get on the trail as well. I've heard of several car break-ins at the Sutherland Ave parking area.
Plus there's a new Mexican restaurant about to open in the center.
Bet the rent's pretty good there.
~m.
Yes, it is essentially empty. Glad to see the new restaurant coming in. Bi-Lo tried to enter the market and failed. When they pulled out they sold to Food City, which had a well established store already nearby. While it seems a shame to have it sit empty, an abandoned grocery store is not an easy space to fill. Given that it is fairly new, it becomes too expensive to buy it, tear it down and start over...you spend a lot of money for something you tear down. Luckily most of the ex Bi-Lo stores (Deane Hill, KPike near Ebeneezer) were converted to Food Citys. It's a tough problem to solve.
There's also a big empty Bi-Lo in Halls, soon to be an abandoned Wal-Mart in Halls, and of course, we can't forget the abandoned Target in Fountain City and the abandoned Circuit City beside Knoxville Center Mall. These are just a few I'm familiar with, I'm sure others could list many more.
It's a real shame that we allow this to happen and worse, that it somehow gets spun as "economic development" when we let them move from one place to another with no consequences for leaving behind a big empty box.
but simply from a pedestrian standpoint, it's a shame that the BiLo was the store that closed while the Kroger carries on.
The BiLo's location is closer to all the apartments and you don't have to cross Kingston Pike. It's much easier access for students and the people with limited mobility that inhabit the area.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
That Kroger is much better than the Bi-Lo was and the Fresh Market there is stellar.
to compel Target, Circuit City, etc to return the area to green space before moving to a "better" location in the same area.
I don't expect the Target near the mall to stay open after the Super Target is built near Cedar Bluff. What if the store was responsible for the maintenance and safety of the property they leave behind until someone else moves into that property?
The empty Bi-Lo building would be a good location for a large indoor climbing center, a roller rink or a campus extension building.
Some communities require the big boxes to find another tenant before they let them close a store and move to a different location within a certain number of miles from the original.
As I've said before, both the Bearden Bi-Lo and Fountain City Target represent a real opportunity to do an anchor type development that will either establish a true "town center" or strengthen the historic one that currently exists. At one time, during the "Bearden Village" planning awhile back, there was talk of zoning changes similar to the form zoning approach being applied to the South Waterfront and Central/Broadway but the business community was lukewarm to the idea and it never gained traction. Which was too bad, if you ask me. In the interim, there have been several new developments and refurbs done in the area. And, while they certainly look better, they're still essentially strip malls behind those new brick veneers.
It's a problem, no doubt. You get some that are great re-uses: Nova in South Knoxville, Comcast on Asheville Highway. But there are more empty ones that re-filled and re-used ones, no doubt. I'm hopeful that the Bearden one has a big enough footprint to do some sort of mixed-use, but again..the cost of something recently built makes buying it and tearing it down very difficult economically. Lisa has some valid points...but in some cases, like Bi-Lo, someone just tried to enter the market and failed. No question as a community we need to try and find a better way to re-use these buildings. The Walgreens converted to a library is a great piece of design. It can be done.
The same thing has happened through the years in other places out west, the Raillery and others were redone and rents were raised. The Carlton has always been quite reasonable for a apt. bldg with a roof top pool. I sued to live near it and like the atmosphere. I guess its got to keep up with the downtown luxury rents.
We have a branch of El Mezcal in Farragut -- it’s my favorite Mexican after the one by Toys R Us. I used to go there once a week before I became more health and money focused. It's like a local pub. I always bumped into someone I know. At first they struggled, because most of the staff didn't speak English -- but everyone learned to communicate and business is always healhly. One of the few restaurants in Farragut that does well.
This discussion is very interesting about the big boxes. I am frustrated with seeing all these open spaces and new stuff being built -- and I am in commercial real estate. I would love to hear what the needs are for those communities with the big spaces. On the school overcrowding issue, we need to think out of the box and possible use some of the buildings as temporary classroom spaces -- before we decide to spend money to build new schools. I hear Halls is having an overcrowding problem. We need to convince the elected officals it is okay to lease. Many state government offices are leased and they don't have the expense of upkeep on the buildings.
I know that a health club looked at old Food City/Bilo space. Do you think that is a good spot for one?
Generally, if a grocery chain is still paying on the leases which is this case -- they will not allow a grocery store to come in. So you have to find another tenant who needs similar amount of space. It's costly to sub divide.
So much of the empty space you see is still paying rent to the owners until their leases run up which can be ten years or more. The tenant has the right to sublet. Since the money is coming in, the owner generally doesn't look for the replacement tenant. Most of the tenants don't want their competition in the area so they would rather pay the rent and leave the space vacant. That is way we need new uses like Comcast and Nova for these spaces.
I heard last week Target is not happening on the Sherril property by Cedar Bluff.
Pamela
Ever heard of Sprawl-Busters...
Link...
In a 2000 article on Link... ....
"Wal-Mart is one of the worst offenders. According to the latest tally from Sprawl-Busters, an organization that helps communities fight superstore sprawl, the United States is home to 380 empty Wal-Mart stores."
So I assume the number might be significantly larger now.
Also...
"Most abandoned stores remain vacant for many years. The buildings are unsuitable for much besides big-box retailing. National retailers generally prefer to maintain the lease rather than let the property fall into the hands of a competitor."
actually, before it became the Bi-lo in Bearden, grocery chain Brunos acquired the property, including the dislocation of Parker Brothers hardware. Then Brunos execs died in a plane crash, in December 1991. Parker Brothers took the Shoney's building, and in the mid 1990s, I recall, fought to prevent the construction of a Home Depot over by Bill Rodgers Buick on Papermill.
Then Parker Brothers sold out to a big chain, Ace Hardware.
And therefore never send to know for whom the big box retailer tolls; It tolls for thee. (with apologies to John Donne).
Bizgrrl, to answer your concern as the developer of The Carlton Towers we will be doing everything we can to accomodate any of the elderly folks (which there are actually only a few now, about 8-9% of the total population) that are there, even in providing assistance from a time and resource standpoint at our expense should they need to move to other housing. Your position that they will be put on the street in the name of gentrification is not true in the slightest, we plan to care for these folks in every way we possibly can.
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