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Energy efficient front loader update
Submitted by R. Neal on Thu, 2008/02/14 - 3:14pm.
Got our first full-month utility bill since installing our new energy efficient front loading washer/dryer.
As compared to the same period last year, it appears we may have reduced total water consumption by about 21%. Water is so cheap it isn't much in terms of cost savings, but every little bit helps in a drought.
It looks like we may have reduced our electricity usage some, too, possibly owing to less drying time. Compared to the previous month it's about a 13% reduction, but it's hard to compare month to month (average temperature, holiday cooking, etc.)
But the really good news is that CFLs, energy efficient washer/dryer, and other conservation measures have reduced our electricity consumption by 31% as compared to the same period last year. Last year's average temperatures during that period were 50.6 (high) and 31.7 (low), compared to 46.9 and 27.1 for this year, so the savings may actually be higher.
There's more stuff we can do to conserve, though, so we'll keep chipping away at it.
Those are good steps.
I did the CFLs years ago when they were more expensive but the savings were substantial.
I put another layer of insulation in my attic which helped a little.
Surely everyone wraps the water heater with an insulation blanket these days?
I traded my old refrigerator and an upright freezer for a single energy efficient fridge/freezer and that helped.
Last time I painted, I used about 30 tubes of caulk and sealing those cracks also helped.
My "big ticket" item was replacing my heat/air system with a geothermal unit. Expensive but great savings!
I hope to one day get a solar array and a rechargeable auto so as to become entirely energy independent.
For saving water there is a shower head that I love. It delivers an almost stinging stream, so much better than the old pouring out of a bucket one that wasted water.
The toilets can now be retrofitted with a sealed system plastic pressure tank that flushes great but uses only a gallon of water. The pressure builds up when the sealed tank fills up. Works great.
It's been a lot of fun so far finding ways to save energy and water and saving money at the same time.
One area where I'm stumped is the use of "energy vampires" like remote control items, always-on electronics and such. I LIKE those toys!
Another area we seldom consider but is also important energy-wise is the foods we eat. Have they been transported halfway around the world to our table? It matters. Start a garden. Buy local produce and eat healthier.
Let's all keep chipping away. Be smarter and save money. Who knows, we may even save the world!
To my right wing redneck friends I use several subtle approaches like, "I'm driving a small, energy efficient efficient old car to work (didn't cost very much!)and saving my pickup truck for other things." Also, "I don't like giving my money to those Arabs every time I fill up the gas tank, hurts my feelings!" They do the correct thing even if it is for different reasons than I do it.
It works!
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Surely everyone wraps the water heater with an insulation blanket these days?
I have read/heard that if you have a newer WH it's debatable whether a blanket is useful. A blanket would have more benefit if your WH is in a cold area. Insulating your hot water pipes would help as well, some say more than the blanket. If you have a has WH you got to be careful with the blanket too.
My "big ticket" item was replacing my heat/air system with a geothermal unit. Expensive but great savings!
You mind giving us a ballpark cost? Just curious.
What's your auxiliary heat, electric or gas?
I am having problems getting good lifetime out of my CFLs. Maybe it's because they are the cheapos, maybe it's too much switching off and on.
Submitted by gonzone on Fri, 2008/02/15 - 12:19pm.
Good point. It does depend on the age of your water heater and it's location. But a blanket is cheap and it certainly can't hurt. I have a blanket on a gas water heater and see no problem with that. And the pipes are a good place to insulate. If you're remodeling or rebuilding, you absolutely need to look at the new PEX lines that come pre-insulated and are very easy to install.
The cost of a geothermal unit depends on the size of you house, which determines the "tons" of heating/cooling you'll need. For an example, let's use a 2000 sq. ft. home. Normally a contractor would want to install a 4 ton unit but with geothermal you can get by with a 3 ton unit(something not available with conventional, they're usually 2 or 4 ton. The most efficient conventional unit, scroll with variable motor,4 ton, etc. would cost about $9K and be about 125% to 150% efficient (displaces more energy than it consumes.) Now a Water Furnace geothermal 3 ton unit would be 400% efficient, would require a 360 foot ground loop minimum, and would cost about $12.5k. And a great fringe benefit is that you get free hot water about 7-8 months a year (an additional tank for this is necessary.) The difference is about $3.5k for this scenario but well worth it in my view. I recommend this for people who have the necessary property for a ground loop and need to replace an older unit. Also, since this is an investment in the house, you should intend to live there for some time.
My auxiliary water heat is gas and the new unit has an emergency-only electric resistance heater included inside, just like conventional units. For no-power emergencies, I keep a large propane unit and several 20 pound tanks handy. I'd rather do wood for this but haven't got around to that.
CFLs are a bit over-rated on the lifetime guarantee it seems but part of the problem may be the quality of the power supplied. I've had cheaper ones go out quickly and some are still working many years after installation. Proper hear dissipation for the ballast in the bulb can also be a factor for longevity.
Hope this helps!
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Thanks for info. I will definitely look into geothermal if (more like when) I need a major hvac overhaul. I saw a Smith and Associates van on the interstate just the other day.
I've been thinking lately that we should talk less about "global warming" and "climate change" and more about "actual hard dollar savings" and "national security" by "reducing our dependence on foreign oil" that "funds terrorist harboring states."
If we can start conserving more while we transition to alternative energy sources and distribution schemes the net effect will also reduce carbon emissions as a byproduct and the "global warming is a myth" crowd will be none the wiser.
(We still need to do something about these coal plants, though. There is a design for a clean plant that was ready to start construction, but Bush nixed funding for it right after his State of the Union speech touting clean coal.)
As is evident above, I agree that the way we frame the issues make a major difference to our less informed neighbors and friends. We've gotta make it something they can relate to or identify with. It's not deceptive either but an honest way of rephrasing an idea. I learned a great deal about framing issues from Lakoff's books and it reduces my frustration level when i find I can persuade gently and make a difference. Every time we re-frame an issue for identification, we move the conversation in a more positive direction. Once we get our friends and neighbors to start doing good things they'll come up with all kinds of reasons themselves to justify their new actions and we have a "job well done" smile.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Count me as one of the "global warming is quite the hysteria" crowd, somewhat more moderate than the "myth" crowd Randy alludes to. I realize that puts me in the minority on Knoxviews. However, I identify myself as such simply to state my agreement with his stance that we should indeed be talking about energy independence, which is something most of us can agree upon. Conservation appeals to the frugal, and heaven knows everyone would like to see us eliminate foreign oil as something we need.
Submitted by captainkona on Thu, 2008/02/14 - 7:09pm.
And if we can pry Republican noses out of Saudi asses we may one day begin to accomplish exactly that.
It's quite a shame that the blatant greed of the present sadministration and it's minions just digs us deeper and deeper into the hole with each passing day.
But, once there's enough money to be made in alternative fuels, the Right should begin to embrace it.
"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."
Submitted by Brian A. on Fri, 2008/02/15 - 2:40am.
I've been thinking lately that we should talk less about "global warming" and "climate change" and more about "actual hard dollar savings" and "national security" by "reducing our dependence on foreign oil" that "funds terrorist harboring states."
I fear within the next decade "global warming" and even "national security" may take a backseat to economics when it comes to energy conservation. Note that even with all the market jitters about the U.S. sliding into a recession, oil is still hovering above $90/barrel. The supply/demand curves have made a noticeable shift in the last five years. The next five could be even worse.
One area where I'm stumped is the use of "energy vampires" like remote control items, always-on electronics and such. I LIKE those toys!
I have all my tv/dvd/receiver (and computer) units plugged up to a power strip. I just flip the switch and turn them all off when I go to bed at night. The only device I leave on is the cable box/dvr because it can take hours to reload the "guide" once you flip it off.
There's some irony in this: Water is so cheap it isn't much in terms of cost savings, but every little bit helps in a drought. Seems like revaluing the water supply might go a ways toward getting people to see things in terms of "hard dollar savings."
~m.
Good point. My guess is there will be some adjustments if we have another drought this summer. Alcoa had to build a huge extra pipeline down to Little River and I don't know how many hundreds of thousands that cost. It's still ridiculously cheap, though. Especially compared to a bottle of water at the quickie mart.
Submitted by Michael on Fri, 2008/02/15 - 10:40am.
Alcoa had to build a huge extra pipeline down to Little River and I don't know how many hundreds of thousands that cost.
And Georgia's ready to battle with Tennessee over water. And the utilities are monopolies. So why don't water rates follow the rules of supply and demand? I can't figure out if we're just paying the additional costs of maintaining our flow through taxes to cover government subsidies, or whether we're just shoving our heads in the sand as we did over fossil fuels for so long.
When you have water restrictions as Blount County saw, and a rush to build infrastructure, it seems as if it's a matter of deferment. The recent drought has demonstrated how marginal the supply is. But the new Southeastern water wars show how tenuous things have gotten.
And really, if most folks water bills doubled, it wouldn't have near the impact fuel increases have caused. How long before water's fair market value reflects its costs?
~m.
A ball park average for many water utility districts for loss to leakage is around 50%! Imagine the savings with a little infrastructure work! But then we might not have money for wars and new interstates more nuclear missiles.
Infrastructure improvement and eliminating waste just ain't 'Murikan enough I reckon. Worse than universal health care and Social Security, sounds like some commie idea some dirty hippie thought up. :-)
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Yeah, see this thread on Roaneviews. Apparently Oliver Springs looses 50% of its intake to leakage. I assume output is less than intake, so that's more than 50% loss.
Submitted by Factchecker on Fri, 2008/02/15 - 2:24pm.
Wow, thanks for the great stuff, gonzone. Especially on the geothermal. I'd love to have one. Are you in the local area? I've heard that the install requires extra expertise that many local HVAC contractors don't have. A co-worker did a GHP some years ago and it was a nightmare for him. Leaked antifreeze and unbalanced (would overheat, etc.).
I have two green tips I've been meaning to post somewhere. 1) I got a Kill-a-Watt meter that you can plug various loads around the house into and see what they're consuming, even when you think the loads are off. It's fun and informative. You can use it to figure what appliances to replace, put on power strips, etc. It's only about $20. There are other brands available too.
2) We were having trouble getting our clothes dry and were about ready to replace our dryer in desperation. I could see a good bit of the way into both side ends of the dryer vent and vacuum it partially if needed, but there never seemed to be much lint blockage. I decided as a last resort before a new dryer to buy one of these, which are also available at Lowe's.
In less than an hour I had extracted several large masses of lint from the vent sides. "Just a little" lint throughout the vent was collectively enough to prevent our dryer from working almost at all. It took hours to dry a typical washer load of clothes before. Now a full load is bone dry in under a half hour. Can't recommend this strongly enough. If you're having any doubt about whether you're drying clothes efficiently, clean the entire vent path with a suitable brush tool.
Always glad to help move someone towards a greener lifestyle. I'm in the local area and the only contractor is Smith and Associates for this. I can recommend them based on my personal experience. The technology has advanced so far in this area lately that it's stunning to learn. Doesn't use anti-freeze, too toxic.
Thanks for the dryer vent brush tip. I'm gonna do it. I once used my leaf blower on the vent from outside and had to profusely apologize to my better half for all the lint that ended up in the dryer! (but it worked!)
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Submitted by gonzone on Sun, 2008/02/17 - 12:50pm.
Locally you can get only horizontal from the contractor, either submerged in the lake (for the really lucky ones) or in the ground at a depth of 6-7 feet around here where the average year-round temperature is about 58 degrees. For the example above (360 foot loop) that would require about a half acre unobstructed. The horizontal is much more expensive to install due to the drilling and the pump strength requirement is greater. The ground loop is actually split into three smaller pipes separated one foot apart to run out the ditch and back so 360 feet becomes 1440 feet of heat collection/dissipation. The delta of heating/cooling 58 degrees to room temperature is where the savings are. Another side benefit/feature is that these units actually heat the air higher than conventional units so the common complaint of heat pumps don't "feel as warm as gas heat" is overcome and the unit avoids cycling as often.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Those are good steps.
I did the CFLs years ago when they were more expensive but the savings were substantial.
I put another layer of insulation in my attic which helped a little.
Surely everyone wraps the water heater with an insulation blanket these days?
I traded my old refrigerator and an upright freezer for a single energy efficient fridge/freezer and that helped.
Last time I painted, I used about 30 tubes of caulk and sealing those cracks also helped.
My "big ticket" item was replacing my heat/air system with a geothermal unit. Expensive but great savings!
I hope to one day get a solar array and a rechargeable auto so as to become entirely energy independent.
For saving water there is a shower head that I love. It delivers an almost stinging stream, so much better than the old pouring out of a bucket one that wasted water.
The toilets can now be retrofitted with a sealed system plastic pressure tank that flushes great but uses only a gallon of water. The pressure builds up when the sealed tank fills up. Works great.
It's been a lot of fun so far finding ways to save energy and water and saving money at the same time.
One area where I'm stumped is the use of "energy vampires" like remote control items, always-on electronics and such. I LIKE those toys!
Another area we seldom consider but is also important energy-wise is the foods we eat. Have they been transported halfway around the world to our table? It matters. Start a garden. Buy local produce and eat healthier.
Let's all keep chipping away. Be smarter and save money. Who knows, we may even save the world!
To my right wing redneck friends I use several subtle approaches like, "I'm driving a small, energy efficient efficient old car to work (didn't cost very much!)and saving my pickup truck for other things." Also, "I don't like giving my money to those Arabs every time I fill up the gas tank, hurts my feelings!" They do the correct thing even if it is for different reasons than I do it.
It works!
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Surely everyone wraps the water heater with an insulation blanket these days?
I have read/heard that if you have a newer WH it's debatable whether a blanket is useful. A blanket would have more benefit if your WH is in a cold area. Insulating your hot water pipes would help as well, some say more than the blanket. If you have a has WH you got to be careful with the blanket too.
My "big ticket" item was replacing my heat/air system with a geothermal unit. Expensive but great savings!
You mind giving us a ballpark cost? Just curious.
What's your auxiliary heat, electric or gas?
I am having problems getting good lifetime out of my CFLs. Maybe it's because they are the cheapos, maybe it's too much switching off and on.
Good point. It does depend on the age of your water heater and it's location. But a blanket is cheap and it certainly can't hurt. I have a blanket on a gas water heater and see no problem with that. And the pipes are a good place to insulate. If you're remodeling or rebuilding, you absolutely need to look at the new PEX lines that come pre-insulated and are very easy to install.
The cost of a geothermal unit depends on the size of you house, which determines the "tons" of heating/cooling you'll need. For an example, let's use a 2000 sq. ft. home. Normally a contractor would want to install a 4 ton unit but with geothermal you can get by with a 3 ton unit(something not available with conventional, they're usually 2 or 4 ton. The most efficient conventional unit, scroll with variable motor,4 ton, etc. would cost about $9K and be about 125% to 150% efficient (displaces more energy than it consumes.) Now a Water Furnace geothermal 3 ton unit would be 400% efficient, would require a 360 foot ground loop minimum, and would cost about $12.5k. And a great fringe benefit is that you get free hot water about 7-8 months a year (an additional tank for this is necessary.) The difference is about $3.5k for this scenario but well worth it in my view. I recommend this for people who have the necessary property for a ground loop and need to replace an older unit. Also, since this is an investment in the house, you should intend to live there for some time.
My auxiliary water heat is gas and the new unit has an emergency-only electric resistance heater included inside, just like conventional units. For no-power emergencies, I keep a large propane unit and several 20 pound tanks handy. I'd rather do wood for this but haven't got around to that.
CFLs are a bit over-rated on the lifetime guarantee it seems but part of the problem may be the quality of the power supplied. I've had cheaper ones go out quickly and some are still working many years after installation. Proper hear dissipation for the ballast in the bulb can also be a factor for longevity.
Hope this helps!
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Thanks for info. I will definitely look into geothermal if (more like when) I need a major hvac overhaul. I saw a Smith and Associates van on the interstate just the other day.
I've been thinking lately that we should talk less about "global warming" and "climate change" and more about "actual hard dollar savings" and "national security" by "reducing our dependence on foreign oil" that "funds terrorist harboring states."
If we can start conserving more while we transition to alternative energy sources and distribution schemes the net effect will also reduce carbon emissions as a byproduct and the "global warming is a myth" crowd will be none the wiser.
(We still need to do something about these coal plants, though. There is a design for a clean plant that was ready to start construction, but Bush nixed funding for it right after his State of the Union speech touting clean coal.)
Those are good ideas for persuasion Randy!
As is evident above, I agree that the way we frame the issues make a major difference to our less informed neighbors and friends. We've gotta make it something they can relate to or identify with. It's not deceptive either but an honest way of rephrasing an idea. I learned a great deal about framing issues from Lakoff's books and it reduces my frustration level when i find I can persuade gently and make a difference. Every time we re-frame an issue for identification, we move the conversation in a more positive direction. Once we get our friends and neighbors to start doing good things they'll come up with all kinds of reasons themselves to justify their new actions and we have a "job well done" smile.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Count me as one of the "global warming is quite the hysteria" crowd, somewhat more moderate than the "myth" crowd Randy alludes to. I realize that puts me in the minority on Knoxviews. However, I identify myself as such simply to state my agreement with his stance that we should indeed be talking about energy independence, which is something most of us can agree upon. Conservation appeals to the frugal, and heaven knows everyone would like to see us eliminate foreign oil as something we need.
And if we can pry Republican noses out of Saudi asses we may one day begin to accomplish exactly that.
It's quite a shame that the blatant greed of the present sadministration and it's minions just digs us deeper and deeper into the hole with each passing day.
But, once there's enough money to be made in alternative fuels, the Right should begin to embrace it.
"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."
I've been thinking lately that we should talk less about "global warming" and "climate change" and more about "actual hard dollar savings" and "national security" by "reducing our dependence on foreign oil" that "funds terrorist harboring states."
I fear within the next decade "global warming" and even "national security" may take a backseat to economics when it comes to energy conservation. Note that even with all the market jitters about the U.S. sliding into a recession, oil is still hovering above $90/barrel. The supply/demand curves have made a noticeable shift in the last five years. The next five could be even worse.
Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.
I have all my tv/dvd/receiver (and computer) units plugged up to a power strip. I just flip the switch and turn them all off when I go to bed at night. The only device I leave on is the cable box/dvr because it can take hours to reload the "guide" once you flip it off.
There's some irony in this: Water is so cheap it isn't much in terms of cost savings, but every little bit helps in a drought. Seems like revaluing the water supply might go a ways toward getting people to see things in terms of "hard dollar savings."
~m.
Good point. My guess is there will be some adjustments if we have another drought this summer. Alcoa had to build a huge extra pipeline down to Little River and I don't know how many hundreds of thousands that cost. It's still ridiculously cheap, though. Especially compared to a bottle of water at the quickie mart.
Alcoa had to build a huge extra pipeline down to Little River and I don't know how many hundreds of thousands that cost.
And Georgia's ready to battle with Tennessee over water. And the utilities are monopolies. So why don't water rates follow the rules of supply and demand? I can't figure out if we're just paying the additional costs of maintaining our flow through taxes to cover government subsidies, or whether we're just shoving our heads in the sand as we did over fossil fuels for so long.
When you have water restrictions as Blount County saw, and a rush to build infrastructure, it seems as if it's a matter of deferment. The recent drought has demonstrated how marginal the supply is. But the new Southeastern water wars show how tenuous things have gotten.
And really, if most folks water bills doubled, it wouldn't have near the impact fuel increases have caused. How long before water's fair market value reflects its costs?
~m.
A ball park average for many water utility districts for loss to leakage is around 50%! Imagine the savings with a little infrastructure work! But then we might not have money for wars and new interstates more nuclear missiles.
Infrastructure improvement and eliminating waste just ain't 'Murikan enough I reckon. Worse than universal health care and Social Security, sounds like some commie idea some dirty hippie thought up. :-)
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Yeah, see this thread on Roaneviews. Apparently Oliver Springs looses 50% of its intake to leakage. I assume output is less than intake, so that's more than 50% loss.
Wow, thanks for the great stuff, gonzone. Especially on the geothermal. I'd love to have one. Are you in the local area? I've heard that the install requires extra expertise that many local HVAC contractors don't have. A co-worker did a GHP some years ago and it was a nightmare for him. Leaked antifreeze and unbalanced (would overheat, etc.).
I have two green tips I've been meaning to post somewhere. 1) I got a Kill-a-Watt meter that you can plug various loads around the house into and see what they're consuming, even when you think the loads are off. It's fun and informative. You can use it to figure what appliances to replace, put on power strips, etc. It's only about $20. There are other brands available too.
2) We were having trouble getting our clothes dry and were about ready to replace our dryer in desperation. I could see a good bit of the way into both side ends of the dryer vent and vacuum it partially if needed, but there never seemed to be much lint blockage. I decided as a last resort before a new dryer to buy one of these, which are also available at Lowe's.
In less than an hour I had extracted several large masses of lint from the vent sides. "Just a little" lint throughout the vent was collectively enough to prevent our dryer from working almost at all. It took hours to dry a typical washer load of clothes before. Now a full load is bone dry in under a half hour. Can't recommend this strongly enough. If you're having any doubt about whether you're drying clothes efficiently, clean the entire vent path with a suitable brush tool.
Always glad to help move someone towards a greener lifestyle. I'm in the local area and the only contractor is Smith and Associates for this. I can recommend them based on my personal experience. The technology has advanced so far in this area lately that it's stunning to learn. Doesn't use anti-freeze, too toxic.
Thanks for the dryer vent brush tip. I'm gonna do it. I once used my leaf blower on the vent from outside and had to profusely apologize to my better half for all the lint that ended up in the dryer! (but it worked!)
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Forgot to ask, gonzone, but can you comment on your GSHP's loop? Vertical or horiz. and how much area did you need?
Thanks.
Locally you can get only horizontal from the contractor, either submerged in the lake (for the really lucky ones) or in the ground at a depth of 6-7 feet around here where the average year-round temperature is about 58 degrees. For the example above (360 foot loop) that would require about a half acre unobstructed. The horizontal is much more expensive to install due to the drilling and the pump strength requirement is greater. The ground loop is actually split into three smaller pipes separated one foot apart to run out the ditch and back so 360 feet becomes 1440 feet of heat collection/dissipation. The delta of heating/cooling 58 degrees to room temperature is where the savings are. Another side benefit/feature is that these units actually heat the air higher than conventional units so the common complaint of heat pumps don't "feel as warm as gas heat" is overcome and the unit avoids cycling as often.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."
Hunter S. Thompson
Another obstacle I don't think we could overcome. Thanks again for the good info., though.
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