Shuster was out of line (would it be ok to say that Bush's daughters were "pimped out" when they campaigned for him in 2004? How about saying that Mitt's sons were pimped out? Oh but that doesn't work because you know, they're guys). But an apology was sufficient.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 12:11am.
His point was that the Clintons have always fiercely guarded Chelsea's privacy, and the media (and others) have largely honored their wishes and kept their distance. Those who have violated the "gentleman's agreement" have been hammered, from what I gather.
But now, with Chelsea on the campaign trail, doing stuff like picking up the phone and calling superdelegates and Whoopi Goldberg (who was wavering in her support for Clinton and moving toward Obama), it would seem that the terms of the "agreement"have changed -- or so Schuster evidently thought.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 12:21am.
It seemed to be an off-the-top-of-his-head remark, and not a well-chosen phrase, but the term "pimp", when used as a verb, has taken on a much broader pop culture context than running a stable of whores these days.
Submitted by Andy Axel on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 12:22am.
It seemed to be an off-the-top-of-his-head remark, and not a well-chosen phrase
Kinda like the "nappy headed ho's" who play for Rutgers, viz. Don Imus?
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
Look, I don't see how anyone can defend what he said. I usually like Shuster, but he messed up here. And taken in the broader context of MSNBC's general frat boy attitude, it's even more troubling.
I think the Clinton camp was right to call him on it. And even more right to call MSNBC out.
And I think he should have apologized. The first apology, BTW, was of the weak "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" variety. But the second was fine.
Asking for his head, if that's indeed what is being asked for, is way overkill.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 12:30am.
I dunno, Rachel--
I didn't like what Shuster said, but I think the reaction is disproportionate to the offense. I can buy that they're ticked at Matthews et al, and I can't say that I blame them.
But.
I'm just starting to notice things that I always used to blow off about the Clintons...
But new rules apply. IOKIYHH: It's OK if you hate Hillary.
I shudder to think what the agitprop would be if Obama had been referred to as a pimp in similar circumstances...
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
Submitted by Andy Axel on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 12:18am.
Indeed, she is.
She's a woman who is compos mentis and who is capable of making her own decisions.
So she chooses to work on her mother's political campaign - so, in the media's eyes, that makes her a whore who's being tricked out by her own mother? Vile.
That, of course, is the implication of the phrase, "pimping out." At least it was last time I checked.
This is acceptable discourse?
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
Submitted by captainkona on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 12:06am.
I don't think he used the word "pimping" to describe a young woman working on her mom's campaign, I think he used it to describe a parent using their child to give stump speeches due to the fact that she's the only member of the family that isn't dirty.
"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."
I think he used it to describe a parent using their child to give stump speeches due to the fact that she's the only member of the family that isn't dirty.
Wow, you are reading way too much into this.
"Pimp" was a shot right out of Shuster's lizard brain. He feels threatened by powerful women, he lashes out by sexualizing them.
It's the same crap that Chris Matthews has been pulling for years, and Sen. Clinton is calling MSNBC on it.
Submitted by Lobster on Sat, 2008/02/09 - 11:57pm.
It's certainly not the first time that the son or daughter of a presidential candidate has been out campaigning for them. It's nice to see that they believe in the parent. The young lady is certainly old enough to find something else to do if she didn't want to hit the campaign trail.
The comments were a bit harsh. However, wanting the man fired is also a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I think voters are going to see it as Hillary being vindictive. The reporter was already suspended, public notice of her concerns over the comments and the network coverage was raised, and it's time to let it go. It can't help her public image to push this one.
BTW, I have to say I agree with the Clinton camp about the general tone on MSNBC. Mathews and Tucker Carlson are huge misogynists. (And both have said stuff a lot worse than what Shuster said. I saw several guys on Carlson's show yucking it up a few weeks ago when one of them called Hillary a "vaginal American.")
I'm really surprised at some of the reaction to this topic. Why anyone would defend Shuster and go on the offensive toward the Clintons is beyond me. I have been watching MSNBC a lot lately (CNN is just bad) and there is hardly one newsperson, pundit, reporter, whatever you want to call them, on MSNBC that hasn't been really biased against Clinton running for president (including Olbermann), until last night, of course.
Submitted by Carole Borges on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 8:29am.
Unfortunately Hillary just added to the spotlight's glare on Chelsea by sending the letter which she must have known would leak out. She should have picked up the phone to expand upon her angry thoughts about this..then again...I suppose with everyone listening to our conversatons these days, it could have leaked out anyway via the White House. Leaks there are more common than cow manure in a barn.
Submitted by CathyMcCaughan on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 10:56am.
The comment was completely inappropriate no matter how you think pop culture has changed language. Celebritarts selling their children's pictures are pimping out their children. Adult children working on campaigns are not whores. When the vultures try to attack our children we DO become bears. They don't stop being our children when they turn 18.
If he had said that about my daughter, no matter her age, he'd be damn lucky if all he got was a request to be fired. I'd stomp a grease pit in his chest.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Generally speaking, I have laid off the Bush's children. While party girls, the older one generally acquits herself as intelligent. Jenna gets a lot of grief, but she tends to make some weird decisions. The book was one of them. I imagine this wedding is part of the "Let's Distract The Media" game that Bush plays.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Submitted by CathyMcCaughan on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 11:21am.
I have much better reasons to dislike Bush, but his unwillingness to be a parent, lack of protection of his daughters from the paparazzi and absence of reaction to their attacks by the media have always disappointed me.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 11:34am.
Being a president's kid is a tough gig. The worst thing I remember anybody saying publicly was when Limbaugh called Chelsea "the family dog." She was about 12. Amy Carter was treated horribly, too.
And I always liked the story about HST threatening to punch out the music critic who gave his daughter a bad review.
The Clintons obviously did a whole lot of things right raising Chelsea, a Stanford graduate who has turned out beautifully. I remember when GwB was inaugurated -- the Bush twins were decked out for barhopping. Chelsea was wearing a beautifully tailored suit.
Submitted by WhitesCreek on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 1:58pm.
I remember making some rather unflattering observations about the Bush Twins. I don't remember saying anything that would rise to the actual standards of their behavior, and I don't remember getting to make such observations in the role of a supposedly neutral journalist.
McCain has an interesting habit of not having his foot stuck deeply enough in his mouth to stifle his words. I suspect we'll get to hear him sing "Bomb Bomb Iran" until we're sick of it when the general elections get's going.
Submitted by Bbeanster on Sun, 2008/02/10 - 4:09pm.
McCain's said and tolerated some vile stuff. You'd think someone who was smeared in 2000 as a -- well, you know what they called him -- because he adopted a kid from Bangladesh would be repulsed by that kind of stuff, and not b e afraid to say so.
Misogyny is a tough, deeply ingrained thing. Its practitioners get a pass, second only to that given to purveyors of homophobia, maybe.
Although the social/economic impact of racism is so huge it defies quantification -- just take a drive through Walter P.
Man, this election is stirring some bitter brew. We are not a nice people.
In the same world in which that woman turning sexism on its head is framed as Odd News, and in which that woman is called a bitch to the amusement of the other party's nominee, and is called a she-devil and depicted with horns, and is heckled by jerks demanding she iron their shirts, and is reduced to tea parties and her response to that demeaned as "really be[ing] on edge," and in which she is cast as a feminazi monster, and has her ability to withstand the rigors of the presidency questioned with an unflattering image, and has a nutcracker designed in her image, and finds her moment of candidly expressed emotion turned into a national story using dog-whistles once removed from "hysterical," and is routinely accused of playing a victim and of playing the gender card, often erroneously, and is said to need a copy of The Rules, and is accused of having a career only because her husband cheated on her, and is subjected to the swill of online hate groups with names like "Hillary Clinton: Stop Running for President and Make Me a Sandwich" and "Hillary Clinton Shouldn't Run for President, She Should Just Run the Dishes," and is regularly featured in sexist political cartoons, and is challenged by a 527 calling itself C.U.N.T., and is called the Crybaby-in-Chief if she shows emotion, and can't bloody win no matter what she does, but only in the eyes of misogynist wankers because SHE'S. STILL. HERE.
But damn if there aren't plenty of people in this world trying to see that she isn't.
Tons of embedded links at the original.
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
She'd better be more concerned with the fact that Obama's beginning to pull away.
Actually, I found the term "pimping" to be fairly close to appropriate. Why else is she there?
"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."
Shuster was out of line (would it be ok to say that Bush's daughters were "pimped out" when they campaigned for him in 2004? How about saying that Mitt's sons were pimped out? Oh but that doesn't work because you know, they're guys). But an apology was sufficient.
Hillary needs to learn to quit when she's ahead.
What exactly did you find "fairly close to appropriate" in using "pimping" to describe a young woman working on her mom's political campaign?
All women in the public realm are whores?
Anyone who puts a woman in that realm is a pimp?
...and....who doesn't like free media? I suspect we'll continue to hear the 'outrage' over the coming week or so.
I suspect Shuster now wishes he called CC a surrogate for her mother instead of what he actually said.
His point was that the Clintons have always fiercely guarded Chelsea's privacy, and the media (and others) have largely honored their wishes and kept their distance. Those who have violated the "gentleman's agreement" have been hammered, from what I gather.
But now, with Chelsea on the campaign trail, doing stuff like picking up the phone and calling superdelegates and Whoopi Goldberg (who was wavering in her support for Clinton and moving toward Obama), it would seem that the terms of the "agreement"have changed -- or so Schuster evidently thought.
Chelsea's 28 years old -- not 12.
Hillary's letter made her intention re Shuster pretty clear.
The "clarification" came after she and her campaign noted the public reaction (very negative) to the letter.
I do, btw, agree that Chris Matthews and Tucker Carlson have been pretty insufferable.
Yes, his point was fine. Chelsea is now an adult and campaigning for her mom. She's not a sheltered child anymore. She's an adult.
So that makes it ok for him to say her mom is "pimping her out" in "some sort of weird way"?
Please.
It seemed to be an off-the-top-of-his-head remark, and not a well-chosen phrase, but the term "pimp", when used as a verb, has taken on a much broader pop culture context than running a stable of whores these days.
Kinda like the "nappy headed ho's" who play for Rutgers, viz. Don Imus?
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
Look, I don't see how anyone can defend what he said. I usually like Shuster, but he messed up here. And taken in the broader context of MSNBC's general frat boy attitude, it's even more troubling.
I think the Clinton camp was right to call him on it. And even more right to call MSNBC out.
And I think he should have apologized. The first apology, BTW, was of the weak "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" variety. But the second was fine.
Asking for his head, if that's indeed what is being asked for, is way overkill.
I dunno, Rachel--
I didn't like what Shuster said, but I think the reaction is disproportionate to the offense. I can buy that they're ticked at Matthews et al, and I can't say that I blame them.
But.
I'm just starting to notice things that I always used to blow off about the Clintons...
I didn't like what Shuster said, but I think the reaction is disproportionate to the offense.
Isn't that pretty much what I just said?
The wingers are already having a laff riot over this, by the way. Have you seen what TennesseeFree has at the top of their page lately?
But new rules apply. IOKIYHH: It's OK if you hate Hillary.
I shudder to think what the agitprop would be if Obama had been referred to as a pimp in similar circumstances...
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
I saw that. It's nasty and stupid and about what I'd expect from that guy.
Indeed, she is.
She's a woman who is compos mentis and who is capable of making her own decisions.
So she chooses to work on her mother's political campaign - so, in the media's eyes, that makes her a whore who's being tricked out by her own mother? Vile.
That, of course, is the implication of the phrase, "pimping out." At least it was last time I checked.
This is acceptable discourse?
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
She's a woman who is compos mentis and who is capable of making her own decisions.--
Well, perhaps she should have written the letter rather than her mommy.
Hillary's the candidate. This commentary was directed towards her campaign.
If she hadn't gone after this, everyone would just say she's too cowardly to defend her own daughter. IOKIYHH, indeed.
I don't think he used the word "pimping" to describe a young woman working on her mom's campaign, I think he used it to describe a parent using their child to give stump speeches due to the fact that she's the only member of the family that isn't dirty.
"The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open."
You wish. And play nice, per the directive of management out front, in case you didn't see it.
I think he used it to describe a parent using their child to give stump speeches due to the fact that she's the only member of the family that isn't dirty.
Wow, you are reading way too much into this.
"Pimp" was a shot right out of Shuster's lizard brain. He feels threatened by powerful women, he lashes out by sexualizing them.
It's the same crap that Chris Matthews has been pulling for years, and Sen. Clinton is calling MSNBC on it.
Good for her.
It's certainly not the first time that the son or daughter of a presidential candidate has been out campaigning for them. It's nice to see that they believe in the parent. The young lady is certainly old enough to find something else to do if she didn't want to hit the campaign trail.
The comments were a bit harsh. However, wanting the man fired is also a bit of a knee jerk reaction. I think voters are going to see it as Hillary being vindictive. The reporter was already suspended, public notice of her concerns over the comments and the network coverage was raised, and it's time to let it go. It can't help her public image to push this one.
Update?
BTW, I have to say I agree with the Clinton camp about the general tone on MSNBC. Mathews and Tucker Carlson are huge misogynists. (And both have said stuff a lot worse than what Shuster said. I saw several guys on Carlson's show yucking it up a few weeks ago when one of them called Hillary a "vaginal American.")
I have to disagree with your interpretation of Sen. Clinton's remarks.
Greg Sargent over at TPM has the same interpretation.
But her statement doesn't say Shuster should be fired, but rather that MSNBC needs to look at its "pattern of behavior," which I have to agree with, especially given the frankly bizarre things Chris Matthews has said and the other crap that's gone on there.
Democrats need to push back against all this crap.
...according to ABC News, anyway.
I'm really surprised at some of the reaction to this topic. Why anyone would defend Shuster and go on the offensive toward the Clintons is beyond me. I have been watching MSNBC a lot lately (CNN is just bad) and there is hardly one newsperson, pundit, reporter, whatever you want to call them, on MSNBC that hasn't been really biased against Clinton running for president (including Olbermann), until last night, of course.
Obama's camp calls Shuster's comments "deplorable".
It appears Shuster, initially, may not have been apologetic and Shuster tried to defend his comments in correspondence with the Clinton campaign.
Are we going to have to return to the 30 minutes of network news to get actual news without all of this unwarranted biased reporting?
Unfortunately Hillary just added to the spotlight's glare on Chelsea by sending the letter which she must have known would leak out. She should have picked up the phone to expand upon her angry thoughts about this..then again...I suppose with everyone listening to our conversatons these days, it could have leaked out anyway via the White House. Leaks there are more common than cow manure in a barn.
The comment was completely inappropriate no matter how you think pop culture has changed language. Celebritarts selling their children's pictures are pimping out their children. Adult children working on campaigns are not whores. When the vultures try to attack our children we DO become bears. They don't stop being our children when they turn 18.
If he had said that about my daughter, no matter her age, he'd be damn lucky if all he got was a request to be fired. I'd stomp a grease pit in his chest.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
I can remember some very ugly remarks about Jenna Bush when her book was published last year.
In fact, I made some of them.
Generally speaking, I have laid off the Bush's children. While party girls, the older one generally acquits herself as intelligent. Jenna gets a lot of grief, but she tends to make some weird decisions. The book was one of them. I imagine this wedding is part of the "Let's Distract The Media" game that Bush plays.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
I have much better reasons to dislike Bush, but his unwillingness to be a parent, lack of protection of his daughters from the paparazzi and absence of reaction to their attacks by the media have always disappointed me.
Being a president's kid is a tough gig. The worst thing I remember anybody saying publicly was when Limbaugh called Chelsea "the family dog." She was about 12. Amy Carter was treated horribly, too.
And I always liked the story about HST threatening to punch out the music critic who gave his daughter a bad review.
The Clintons obviously did a whole lot of things right raising Chelsea, a Stanford graduate who has turned out beautifully. I remember when GwB was inaugurated -- the Bush twins were decked out for barhopping. Chelsea was wearing a beautifully tailored suit.
Link...
I remember making some rather unflattering observations about the Bush Twins. I don't remember saying anything that would rise to the actual standards of their behavior, and I don't remember getting to make such observations in the role of a supposedly neutral journalist.
At this point, though, I am undecided if Shuster's remark rises to the standard of McCain's amazingly offensive and revealing "joke" in '98.
McCain has an interesting habit of not having his foot stuck deeply enough in his mouth to stifle his words. I suspect we'll get to hear him sing "Bomb Bomb Iran" until we're sick of it when the general elections get's going.
Oh geez, I forgot this one. Maybe the Clinton's owe Shuster a favor for getting it resurrected.
That's horrible.
McCain needs to be reminded of that one, early and often.
Here's a pretty good opinion piece on the whole misogyny thing.
McCain's said and tolerated some vile stuff. You'd think someone who was smeared in 2000 as a -- well, you know what they called him -- because he adopted a kid from Bangladesh would be repulsed by that kind of stuff, and not b e afraid to say so.
Misogyny is a tough, deeply ingrained thing. Its practitioners get a pass, second only to that given to purveyors of homophobia, maybe.
Although the social/economic impact of racism is so huge it defies quantification -- just take a drive through Walter P.
Man, this election is stirring some bitter brew. We are not a nice people.
Another: Link...
Tons of embedded links at the original.
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
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