Wed
Feb 6 2008
08:31 am
By: bizgrrl
AP is reporting Clinton ahead in delegates.
Super Tuesday results.
Update: Obama campaign provides Excel spreadsheet showing Obama delegate win.
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Did she, really?
Obama won more states. In many of the states he did win he really trounced her. ID, for example 79% to her 17%. MN, Obama 67% to her 32%. KS, Obama 74% to her 26%. I'm not even touching the states he carried strongly in the south. The list goes on. He won more states, his margins are wider and he is well within the '100 delegates' his team was shooting for.
Super Tuesday Spin can really go both ways. I think, however, it is fair to say that the Democrats did win. Two superb candidates. A record number of dems turnout.
For me, Clinton is great, but Obama inspires greatness. Which is better?
Currently, the way primaries
Currently, the way primaries work, winning states is not what counts.
It is great so many Democrats turned out to the polls. I hope we can become one behind the winning candidate in November!
No disputing that
Totally agree. I think I was meaning more than 5-6 weeks ago, Hillary was set to rake in the delegates. Instead, Obama became incredibly competitive and shredded down her expected delegate count.
We all measure success with our own rulers, I think. For me, Obama showed stronger than expected in states that a few weeks ago no one thought he would.
I fully expect that 80 delegate (a win in itself for Obama) lead by Hillary to be whittled down and passed in the coming contests. My basis for this? MO. NM. DE. And all of the states with her small margins that he made her really compete for. He is wearing her campaign down.
On another note, how does his being competitive yesterday affect HRC's funds? She had to spend a lot more to win where she did.
I think many rational people
I think many rational people could argue it's going to be hard for Obama to overcome Clinton's wins in California, New York, Florida, Michigan, plus a few Southern pickups. Sure, the guy won more states, but Clinton won more votes by an order of magnitude. It's not like picking up that level of support is going to make it hard for her to raise money.
(Edit, from Census.gov: U.S. State population estimates. States won by Obama average about 65 million population so far, HRC with MI and FL total more than TWICE as many residents, at 118 million or so*.
Even without MI and FL, HRC won states with 30 million more residents than Obama's total - that's about four times the population of Tennessee. Someone with more time on their hands than I have today will have to crunch statistics on numbers of folks registered to vote in these states...I'm assuming fairly static numbers, and that may not be the case. Although I'd still be - is surprised the word? - if someone manages to wring more numbers out of Missouri than California has, although the enthusiasm of Obama supporters at this point should not be underestimated.)
On to Ohio, I guess. Again. Sigh....As far as this, though?
All I have to say is, keep on dreaming, friend. Hillary is tough as nails, and that includes not folding the tent when things get hard. If anything, adversity makes her team work harder, and I'd bet anything I own it'll be working smarter along with that harder.
Plus, what's up with Obama winning caucus states, while Clinton wins actual elections? Unfortunately for Obama supporters, this one also plays to HRC's strength, since last I checked, November 4, 2008, will not be a caucus.
As far as spending money, it costs A LOT more to run television ads in San Francisco and Long Island than it does in Rochester, Minnesota. Here again, this is something of a nonissue.
[*The population in states won by Hillary actually is more than twice as many as Obama...the actual number is twice as many, plus five million, enough to fill up another state like Kansas or ND.]
Hate to burst your bubble
Hate to burst your bubble but the delegates are split. Just because she "won" a state doesnt mean winner take all. Your argument is moot. You assume that because she won a large state i.e. NY/CA that the entire Democratic population voted for her?
Votes?
Right now, the actual vote count in all the DNC-approved primaries and caucuses is something like
Obama: 7,721,632
Clinton: 7,631,257
(Changing slightly as the last few returns from yesterday are added)
As far as I can tell,
As far as I can tell, yesterday 's Democratic race was as close to a tie as you're ever going to get.
The good news is that Dems are picking from two candidates most of them like. Either can unify the party.
The Republicans are picking from three (now two?) candidates that many of them are holding their noses to vote for.
Hate to burst your bubble,
Hate to burst your bubble, but you missed my point entirely. I realize exactly what's up with delegates, for a few reasons I don't want to get into here. Many people appear to be making the point that Hillary is done for, her financial well dried up, etc., because of Obama's supposed rout last night.
I'm making the point that sure, Obama won some states, but population wise? Hillary kicked his ass. Not only that, but the only states where Obama won resoundingly were red states that no Democrat will win in the general, with a couple of exceptions, maybe (Minnesota, Illinois).
For what it's worth, Hillary also kicked the asses of all the Republicans put together, since in many states she got more votes than all of them combined. I realize the Obama folks are going to keep yammering about delegates, and in fairness that is going to be what this will come down to. However - in terms of raw numbers - Hillary's huge advantage is going to mean that many of the folks who voted for her are also going to continue to give her money. I think it's a great demonstration of exactly how Hillary will do in the general, when she's competitive in a lot of the Clinton/Gore 1992 states, including Tennessee.
I'm making the point that
I'm making the point that sure, Obama won some states, but population wise? Hillary kicked his ass
53,120 votes is an ass kicking...? (snark) Please explain. (/snark)
TOTAL VOTES CAST
Clinton: 50.2% (7,347,971)
Obama: 49.8% (7,294,851)
(link...)
What difference does it make
What difference does it make that your guy won Kansas and Alabama, when he won't win them in November? You really think folks in those two states will continue to give money to help Obama going forward, when they won't be competitive in the general election, and after Republicans start pouring in money to help their guys on the ground in the Midwest and the deep South?
My point is partly that the states where Hillary won big are states with lots of Democrat general election voters and large Democratic infrastructures. You can snark all you want, but I'm glad my candidate's the one with the big states in her column, and where Democrats will be competitive in November.
What difference does it make
What difference does it make that your guy won Kansas and Alabama, when he won't win them in November?
You assume Hillary could win those states in November vs Obama? Please explain.
My point is partly that the states where Hillary won big are states with lots of Democrat general election voters and large Democratic infrastructures.
And your point is what again? Please explain. Dems will always win the "large states" that you speak of. This converation is turning into a trainwreck... Your fervor boileth over...
You assume Hillary could win
I'm thinking she means those will be Red states in November that no Democrat can win.
This is incorrect
The delegate totals I've seen had Obama winning last night by about 4. That's Chuck Todd's analysis at least, and I trust him more than this article.
No linky?
No linky?
More incomplete than wrong
The numbers aren't "wrong." They're just nowhere near complete.
(link...)
Scroll down to 1:00 for Todd's estimate. Note that the Clinton and Obama camps both agreed with Todd's analyses.
Note that the delegates appearing in the media now are just ongoing calculations. There are 1,681 delegates at stake and the article above only accounted for about 1,147 of them. For example, Obama won Minnesota big and probably took a 16 delegate lead there. Yet the ongoing calculations at this point have it 3 to 2.
So much for the "inevitable
So much for the "inevitable candidate". I dont see any fat ladies singing yet. :)
ID, for example 79% to her
ID, for example 79% to her 17%.
Is this really support for Obama? Idaho is about as Republican as you can get. Isn't Obama's support there coming from cross-overs who think that if Obama is the nominee, he'll lose in the general?
I think Idaho had a caucus,
I think Idaho had a caucus, which means those #s are based on small real #s.
Here's what I found interesting - in almost every state (Missouri being the obvious exception) either Clinton won big or Obama won big. What's up with that?
Obama won red states that
Obama won big in red states that don't vote for Democrats in general elections. With a couple of exceptions, maybe, one of them being his home state.
Obama claims delegate lead --nbc backs up that claim
linky
It's the superdelegates that
It's the superdelegates that throw a monkeywrench into the whole equation, for me.
I've been tracking it with my own completely-unreliable system factoring in percentage of votes as well as delegates, and in my "machine" Obama has consistently been, and remains, ahead of Clinton, though it's closer than ever.
- pan
Your argument makes no sense.
Your argument makes no sense. Are Hillary voters not going to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination?
Are Hillary voters not going
That's not what I'm reading. What I'm reading is that in the general election, Obama probably wouldn't win Alabama or Kansas or South Carolina. [McCain] will. Those are Republican strongholds.
By the same token, Hillary probably won't carry Obion County and Cocke County and Blount County and Knox County and Sullivan County like she did last night in a general election against [McCain], and would still probably carry Davidson and Shelby, even though she lost them to Obama last night. Different dynamics are in play then. You can split tickets, e.g.
California & New York, OTOH, are consistent Dem performers. Think Electoral College here (it's a broken system, yes, but it's the framework we have to work with today). They alone represent 86 EV's of 270 needed to win. Overlay the EV's of the states that Clinton won versus what Obama won and you'll see what this means.
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
Are Hillary voters not going
Are Hillary voters not going to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination?
This one will.
For an interesting perspective on super-delegates, see here.
Okay, where's this going? AP
Okay, where's this going?
AP provides new delegate numbers.
I think, like Rachel said,
I think, like Rachel said, it's pretty close to a tie. I think that we all have to be patient, and attempt to be nice to one another. it helps if none of us draw fine lines that piss other people off.
I think that the world is going to be surprised by how well the Dems do in November. I think a lot of conventional wisdom needs to be thrown out the window.
pgs
Pam Strickland
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut
Here was my prediction from
Here was my prediction from last Friday:
Clinton: 772
Obama: 701
It's probably not going to be much different, except I didn't apply exact delegate math which is impossible without an ORNL Cray supercomuter.
From what I can tell, you
From what I can tell, you are correct re those delegate calculations. In the meantime, the candidates have each been trying to claim underdog status. Odd, but true.
pgs
Pam Strickland
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut
Delegate counting site
For results without speculation, Salon has one of the better delegate counting sites for Super Tuesday that I've seen. They explicitly count pledged delegates and super delegates separately. They are updating it as the numbers come in, but aren't trying to guess what the count will be.
It's also worth a look just to see their "caricature" of Huckabee. You might have to watch an ad to access the page:
Link
"caricature" of
"caricature" of Huckabee
Need more be said?
Funny how when Obama wins
Funny how when Obama wins more delegates in a state, the Obamaphiles cite that as the winning format, but when Clinton wins more delegates in total, all of a sudden the winning format shifts to who won more states. Lol...pathetic.