We're going to try to live blog the Democratic debate right here if I can stay alert and awake.
CNN has not said what gimmick they have lined up for tonight. Will the questions be offered up by talking bears on unicycles? Will the candidates have to wear funny clown hats?
Stay tuned...
7:56 - Whatever you think of her politics, is Kitty Pilgrim not the greatest name ever in broadcast journalism? (Wolf Blitzer would be a close second, if it weren't for Wolf Blitzer.)
8:00 - Here we go, live from the Kodak Theater. There's glamor, it's where the Oscar's are awarded. But this is the hottest ticket in town that will change history.
Here are the candidates. Only two left standing.
Candy Crowley: This really focuses the minds of the voters. One of them will be the nominee, and one could be president. Now we understand the importance. (Pan to Rob Reiner in the audience).
Wolf: A moment in American History!
Crowley: A race with historic possibilities! You're seeing them on the stage right now!
Moderators: Doyle McManis of LA Times, Gene Cummings, Politico.com (whose readers chose her questions).
Wolf: No rules.
Opening remarks....
Obama: Acknowledges Edwards. Eight candidates, 17 debates, testimony to the party, opportunity to make history. Friends with Hillary before, will be friends after. Defining moment. Nation at war, planet in peril, families struggling to stay in their homes. How do we take country in a new direction, get past divisions. Not a choice between black and white, gender or religion, young or old, but are we looking backward or forward, past or future. We want change from Bush, but change that brings country together, push back against special interests, levels with the American people, solve any problem, fulfill our destiny.
Clinton: Jan 20th, next president will be sworn in. Hopes it's her. When celebrations are over, president will walk into the Oval Office and there will be a stack of problems waiting. (Lists, war, health care, energy, global warming). Imperative that we have a president starting on day one that can solve problems and tackle the challenges and seize the opportunities. Acknowledges Edwards, reminder that there are people in poverty. Have a discussion about what we believe are the goals and priorities for America. (Mrs. says WOW!)
Q: Policy differences?
Clinton: Differences pale in comparison to Republicans. Health care: must have universal health care. Mortgage crisis. Foreign affairs, be realistic but optimistic. Serious threats. Full diplomatic effort, but president should not put office on the line in the first year meeting with dictators. Republicans, more of the same. Just look at us, we are not more of the same. We will change our country.
Obama: Health care. 95% of plan similar. Reason people don't have insurance is cost. Reduce cost. If we make it affordable, people will buy it. Can't mandate purchase of unfordable insurance. Mortgage, Doesn't agree with rate freeze. Will cause rates to go up. Need more oversight of predatory lending practices. Reduce influence of lobbyists. Iraq. Opposed from the start. Next president must show judgment to use military power wisely, elevate diplomacy. Would meet with Iran. Carrots and sticks.
Q: Health care, most Democrats want full coverage. Obama, your plan is voluntary. 15 million people would not be cover. Why is that better?
Obama: Anybody who wants health care will be able to get it under my plan. 15 million want it, can't afford it. I mandate coverage for children. Young people will stay on their parents' plan. Massachusetts mandated, people can't afford it, what are you going to do about it? Garnish their wages?
Clinton: Passionate cause of my public service. Children, rural areas. My plan, if you have insurance and you like it, you don't have to change. If you are uninsured, we will open up Congressional plan to you. We will make it affordable to everyone. Lowers cost, improves quality. Covers through subsidies, caps premiums. Designed to be affordable with tax credits. People who think they don't need it, etc. Cannot get to universal health care if we don't have single payer, or mandate employers, or do what I am proposing, which is shared responsibility. Obama mandates for children, so he's not against mandates. We have to be willing to fight for universal health care. Must bite the bullet.
Q: Obama, people opt out go the ER, we all end up paying?
Obama: If people game the system we can make them pay back premiums. Hillary's subsidies are not sufficient. I want to lower premiums. Ted Kennedy said he is confident we will get universal health care with me as president. We have failed in the past because we haven't brought Democrats and Republicans together to get it done, and broadcasting the negotiations on CSPAN (?).
Taking a break... Tivo paused, will catch up in a minute...
Hilary: Mentions record on SCHIP. Issue is so important. Critical points. Regulate insurance industry differently, must cover everyone. Must compete on cost and quality, no cherry picking. Drug companies, we pay for it many times over, taxpayers pay for clinical studies. Medicare must be able to negotiate prices. Important as Democrats that we carry the banner of universal health care. The industry is clever and well funded. Must have a coalition, business, labor, doctors, nurses, hospitals, we can withstand the insurance and drug companies.
Q: Obama, health plans would cost billions in new spending, requires new taxes. Republicans will call you tax and spend liberal Democrats.
Obama: Republicans aren't in a strong position to argue fiscal responsibility. I'm happy to have that argument. Even with McCain. My plan paid for through savings and prevention. We can save $150 billion. Rest paid for by rolling back Bush tax cuts. Talks about tax cuts for working people. Restore a sense of balance.
Q: Clinton, your plan will cost $110 billion. Tax the rich to pay for it?
Clinton: Pay for it by eliminating tax cuts for people making more than $250K, plus modernization and efficiencies. We spend more than anyone, don't get the best results. We can do better. Eliminate HMO and drug company tax giveaways. Electronic medical records, mentions Gingrich and Frist, save $77 billion. Rural health care access (California, Georgia, Tennessee).
Q: Tax increases for wealthy Americans?
Both: Yes. (Obama agrees with Hillary on medical records and rural health care). Hillary: Go back to tax rates before Bush, when we did really well.
Q: Immigration. Impact on black community related to flood of immigrant labor.
Obama: Worked on the streets of Chicago. Before immigrants, had huge unemployment among blacks. Not an immigration problem. Scapegoating. We have a real difference with the other party. Nation of laws and nation of immigrants. Get control of borders. Crack down on employers who exploit immigrant labor. Give a pathway to citizenship, pay a fine, learn English, to those already here. Economic problems are all rooted in fact that our economy is out of balance, tax cuts, lack of investment in infrastructure, education. Immigration not the problem.
Q: Driver's license for illegal immigrants?
Clinton: Employers exploit illegal workers, causes American job losses. Comprehensive immigration reform. Help communities deal with social costs. Path to legalization. Help them learn English, they must pay a fine. After all that, then talk about driver's licenses.
Q: What does Obama mean by "humane" policy.
Obama: Worked with McCain to move this issue forward. Hard politically. Right thing to do. (Won't say Hillary's policy is not "humane", but people have flipped, I have been consistent.)
Q: Clinton, were you MIA on immigration reform?
Clinton: Started work on it before Obama came to the Senate. House passed mean-spirited provision that would have criminalized Jesus Christ. Stood with farm workers, got their endorsement. Looking at immigration as political issue, but let's be practical and realistic. People are hurting economically, want to blame immigrants. Does not agree with driver's license for illegal immigrants.
Obama: Clinton flip flopped on that, but now has clear position, but took a long time to get there.
Clinton: Correction, Obama couldn't answer question on driver's license either at first. Need united Democratic party with fair minded Republicans to join us to fix broken immigration system.
Break...
Q: Obama, Clinton's experience. Americans agree. Why are they wrong?
Obama: A lot of Americans disagree and think we should move forward with new leadership. I have spend entire adult life trying to bring about change. Streets of Chicago. Civil rights lawyer. State legislator. U.S. Senate. Ability to bring people together, overcome special interests, talking straight. Respect Clinton's record. Skills I have are the ones needed.
Q: Clinton, What experience as First Lady qualifies you?
Clinton: Go back 35 years. Children's Defense Fund. Carter appointment to legal services corporation. Run projects for aid to prisons, education reform, varied experience in private, public and non profit. In White House had great deal of responsibility, worked on children's health care, took on drug companies, worked on foster care, went to 82 countries, working for refugee and women's rights, go to Senate and work across party lines. Positive change in people's lives.
Q: Why CEO?
Clinton: Government is not a business. It's a trust. Current president is CEO president. Look at the results.
Obama: Romney hasn't gotten a very good return on his investment in this campaign.
OK, highlights only now....
Clinton: Change, first woman president would be huge change. Who's ready day one. Two candidates sitting here are a great tribute to America and Democratic party.
Obama: Good things happened during Clinton administration, especially compared to Bush. Bringing in a new generation of voters. Call on America to reach higher. Who can inspire. Democratic primary participation doubled.
Clinton, on Bush/Clinton dynasty: Regrets we have had a Bush in the White House all that time. Took a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush, will take a Clinton to clean up after the second Bush.
Clinton: Very clear on Iraq, will begin to withdraw troops in 60 days. Out within a year. Must plan and execute it right. Pentagon not planning. Think about 100,000 civilians in embassies, businesses, charities, and Iraqis who sided with us. Can't walk out on them. Iraq government is out of time. Must take responsibility. Bush intends to leave troops. Irresponsible. We will inherit it.
Obama: Be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in. No permanent occupation, no permanent basis. McCain lack of understanding about global threats. Set a date. Send a signal to Iraqis. Clear about the mission. Profound strategic error to go into Iraq in the first place. I will be most effective against McCain with clear contrast.
Wolf: Hillary, that's a swipe at you.
Clinton: Not taking the bait. Sticking to original statement. Talking about other countries in the region. Start diplomatic efforts with them. Asked Obama to support her legislation to prevent Bush from committing to ongoing presence in Iraq.
Clinton: Voted against measure to require inspection report before voting for military option because it suggested we would defer to the UN Security Council, not a good precedent. Voted to limit Bush's authority to one year, not approved. If I'd know then what I know now. Bush abused the authority. Warned it was not authority for a preemptive war. But now how do we go forward? Republicans are still committed to Bush's policy, i.e. McCain, who accused me of surrendering. Democrats have a much better grasp of reality we are facing. Must have credentials and gravitas of Commander and Chief.
Obama: Welcome progress in Iraq. Notion that Democrats don't want progress is ridiculous. Complete the mission honorably. Notion that we have succeeded means we have set the bar so low that it's buried in the sand. Gravitas is that I always thought this was a bad idea. Need better judgment. I am the strongest nominee on national security.
Wolf: Hillary, why won't you say your vote was a mistake?
Clinton: Look at what was going on at the time. No one appreciated how obsessed Bush was with the invasion. If I had been president, we would not have diverted our attention from Afghanistan. We should go into the campaign with a plan for going after the terrorists and a plan for going forward.
Wolf: So you were naive?
Clinton: No, nice try. Told personally by the White House that it would get inspectors back in there. I made reasoned judgment, person who executed the policy did not.
Obama: Authorization said "use military force in Iraq". Everybody understood. Clinton has experience on day one, but it's important to be right on day one.
Hollywood question about sex and violence on TV, blah blah. Was this on anybody's list of important issues? Obama slams industry executives in the audience for producing it.
Hillary can you control Bill?: Clinton, he has a spouse too! I'm running for president. I'm prepared to make the decisions.
Dream ticket between the two of you?
Obama: I respect Clinton. But premature. Restore a sense of what's possible in government. No more yes men in the White House. Hillary would be on anybody's short list.
Clinton: I agree with Obama. Overwhelmed by the response both have received. No doubt we will have a unified Democratic party, going into the election prepared to win. HillaryClinton.com. (Wolf: we do the plugs here.)
And that's that. Commentary later in a separate post.
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CNN has not said what
Well, let me put the roast in the oven and draw some Wild Turkey over ice. This oughta be good.
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
The Beard: "What happens
The Beard: "What happens here may determine the fate of the election..."
Yeah, Wolf - I'm sure you hope so.
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
No holds barred!
No rules?
We'll see how this pans out.
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
nba playoffs
ya know in the playoffs when tempers boil in a game 5?
everybody predicts a dirty nasty game 6.
then game 6 is hard fought but no elbows
thats the way i think this debate will go
Game Six
Hm. Not an unintentional sports metaphor, I'm sure.
So, is Obama cast as Carlton Fisk...?
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
bill russell
bill russell
I'm glad they're talking
I'm glad they're talking about health care in detail.
This is one of the first debates i've watched; Obama seemed a bit nervous at first, though he's gotten more relaxed. Hillary has seemed at ease the whole time.
Cut the camera to George
Cut the camera to George Castanza!
I'm glad they're talking
Two bucks gets you three that the press complains that this debate was "boring."
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
Politico question: "Latinos
Shorter Politico question: "Latinos are taking low-wage, low-skilled jobs from blacks. Comment?"
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
NPR had a Latino blogger speak on this topic yesterday
He said he is sick of the way the media and some politicians are trying to make "The Latinos" soound like a people with one mind. He refuted this saying Latinos come in all colors, belong to both parties, speak English and don't speak English, are legal and illegal, and adhere to many different religions. He insisted his community is diverse and inclusive. He said the media and some politcans were trying to pit one minority group against another (blacks and latinos) for their own benefit. He said this was a very old but effective way to distract minorities from pointing toward the real people who are screwing up thier lives and the real issues which prevent them from obtaining the American Dream.
WTF is "coercive
WTF is "coercive diplomacy?"
____________________________
With the possible exception of things like box scores, race results, and stock market tabulations, there is no such thing as Objective Journalism. The phrase itself is a pompous contradiction in terms.
I think "coerecive" was a poor word choice, but telling...
coerce
TRANSITIVE VERB:
coerced , coercing , coerces
To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.
To dominate, restrain, or control forcibly: coerced the strikers into compliance. See Synonyms at force.
To bring about by force or threat: efforts to coerce agreement.
It's the Bush approach, though I think Hillary would go lighter on this and too smart to get us into another war.
This is one area that makes me feel Obama would be a much better president. America would be safer under his command. His diplomatic skills, his style of really listening and thinking before he attacks someone, and his belief that talking to our enemies can solve problems before we have to take up arms, these traits really appeal to me. It's a true change of direction.
Barack said, "I want to change the mind-set that got us into this war."
Coercive diplomacy is the current way we are handling our foriegn policy.
It doesn't seem to be working very well from my perspective.
Hillary has, I think, the old mind-set.
missed the first thirty minutes
My kids were playing video games, which may be a better use of our time.
I wish Obama and Clinton would just flip a coin to decide between one of them being Pres. and one to be VP and just run together.
Can they appoint Edwards
Can they appoint Edwards Attorney General?
Chief Justice?
It'd be awesome.
Woolf! Woolf!
"...were you naive?"
What an asshat thing for Wolf Blitzer to say to Hillary...inappropriate...jerk.
Yeah, but that was a nice
Yeah, but that was a nice round of boo's from the audience he got for it.
As a lifelong Democrat I
As a lifelong Democrat I want to remind everyone to vote, both in the primary, and in the general election no matter who gets the nomination. I keep thinking of what Ann Richards said on Larry King Live.... "When democrats vote, democrats win!" As a people who are totally fed up and in dire need of change we need to get out the Democrat vote so that we can take our country back.
barak's wife won the debte
Barak's wife won the debate he has a coretta
Obama took on McCain
That, to me, is the most important thing. He was already drawing contrasts between himself and McCain. She's just talking about how bad Bush is. All Democrats hate Bush. His approval rating among Democrats is probably .01%. But Bush isn't on the ballot in November. McCain most likely will be. If Democrats are serious about winning this November then we need to think about contrasts with McCain and not just Bush.
The war is the obvious candidate. Only Obama brought up the 100 year war comment from McCain. Obama paired Clinton's support for the war in 2002 with McCain's. Her differences with McCain will be more muddled than they will be from Obama.
We can argue arcane details on health care. Some really want a female President. Some really want an African American President. Some love Hillary's wonkish command of policy. Some love Obama's ability to inspire. Pair the two together and you have the ideal candidate. But the big issue is who will win in November. And to do that we need a candidate who draws contrasts...but on our terms. We need a candidate who brings Independents to our side because of the war and not loses them over 90s era shenanigans. For that reason, Obama was stronger tonight.
I think this debate moved Obama up a lot...
He had a chance to finally straighten out some of the common misconceptions about his health care plan, the war, immigration, etc, etc, etc...
He really shines when he can be who he is...an elegant and gracious man. Nastiness just doesn't come natural to Obama.
I thought he was very gracious toward Hillary in a way that gave a hint about how he would handle diplomacy. He's tough, but he is also amazingly charismatic and charming. I thought he and Hillary just might waltz off stage and float away at the end of the night. I think this man is a person who can heal rifts and genuinely open up avenues of possibilty with enemies.
Hillary was also very gracious and constrained. I didn't hear anything new or surprising abour her policies, I think they have been around a long time. She did offer more details and specifics. I think that helped differentiate the two candidates.
The intros made me think
The intros made me think back to R.Neal's previous post, "October debate: A dramatization". I really did think Clinton's intro was great.
I thought Clinton scored the most points. Obama did make people laugh, but in my opinion, still not enough substance. We have had a funny guy in the White House for 7 years. Now, we need someone who takes this job seriously.
I was most concerned during the Iraq War portion of the debate. Obama is sticking with the "I was against the war" meme, whereas Clinton voted "for the war". Keep in mind, this is easy for him to say, he didn't have a chance to vote. He wasn't a US Senator at the time. What you say and what you do may not be the same. Unlike Bob Graham, US Senator from Florida, who actually voted against the war and ran for President. How far did he get in 2004? Does anyone even remember him? Then there's this. Why is it okay for John Kerry to vote for the war and be a Presidential candidate but not Hillary Clinton?
The debate was a big
The debate was a big disappointment... for CNN and the bobble-headed media. There weren't any fireworks or cheap shots, nobody got punched out, both candidates acted presidential and stuck to the issues, and disagreements were civil. The bobble heads will have to find something else to talk about today, like maybe issues or something. Or Mitt Romney's haircut.
Hard to score it. Obama had more specifics than usual, but Clinton always comes ready to discuss the facts and details. The tussle about Iraq is commented on elsewhere, but they both made good points and I think Clinton defended herself well against the Obama-Blitzer tag team attack.
Both scored some good one liners...
Obama: Republicans aren't in a strong position to argue fiscal responsibility. I'm happy to have that argument.
Clinton: Government is not a business. It's a trust.
Obama: Romney hasn't gotten a very good return on his investment in this campaign.
Clinton: ...it did take a Clinton to clean after the first Bush and I think it might take another one to clean up after the second Bush.
I liked how Obama stood up and spoke out against blaming immigrants for our economic woes and unemployment in black communities.
Where I see a fundamental difference is health care.
No matter how you slice it and dice it, Obama's plan is not universal. Clinton's isn't great (i.e. it isn't HR676), but it's a start and it's better than Obama's. I didn't appreciate how Obama basically lied about Clinton's plan not help the needy pay for mandatory premiums. Clinton corrected him by noting subsidies and tax credits. Obama's idea to reduce costs thereby making premiums less expensive so everyone will buy them is, well, a fairy tale. There are some people who think they are immune and immortal, so they just won't participate. Clinton's plan makes them. Just like we make people buy car insurance. There are other criticisms, of both plans, but Clinton is the only candidate who seems to understand the problem and is willing to take it on.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I gave Obama points for acting "as if" right out of the gate. He went right after McCain in the role of presumptive nominee moving on to the general.
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