I think this was a very inappropriate event. Are there not rules to prevent religious solicitation at public schools? Will all other religions get equal time?

I would guess that, had this "motivational speaker" been a Muslim, and the venue had been the local mosque, a lot of locals would be asking a lot of pointed questions.

It would be one thing if they had an announcement about free tickets to the event, but it doesn't seem right that they would take them out of class to attend a presentation.

I guess the thing is, if they let Grace Baptist do it, why not everyone else? If I were hosting some kind of event targeted at teens, would the school let me come and pitch it to the students? I doubt it.

The best way is to have competent and experienced career civil servants, not
partisan appointments nor elected officers.
gonzone

He added that the general assembly was approved by school system personnel.

You mean experienced career civil servants did this? Surely not!

Having the assembly during school hours was a mistake. Before school or after school, probably OK. Handing stuff out is problematic because it brings up the question Lisa did, which is if you don't let any and every church do it, are you violating the Establishment clause?

And during school? That just seems like a no-brainer.

Agreed on the necessity for after school hours on events like these...the complaints that "no one would come" is as telling about the motives here ....as it is an ineffective response to the question.

The constitutional separation of church and state, which protects religions from the state, must only apply at Powell High School if a Mosque or Synagogue seeks to indoctrinate our children at the public school. It's amazing what bearing a few gifts does to a public school administrator's view of the constitution.

Tamara, this is more than "an abuse of the authority adult school employees have over these youth." If your account is accurate, this is a blatant violation of you and your daughter's rights under the United States Constitution. Those rights protect people for the state, and more importantly protect religions from the state. When the state, through the public school system, decided which religions can and cannot appear before a captive audeince o children, the state is promoting one religion over another, and that's bad for religion. It sure is good for one religion, though, and that's why we have a constitution.

Sounds like someone wasn't thinking very deeply or clearly about this. It sounds like not only a violation of Constitutional church/state separation but also likely an illegal violation of students rights. When will these people learn?

Oh, and this is yet another reason my wife and I chose to homeschool, to avoid the proselytizing that happens in our local schools.

I got ticked when my boys came home with Upwards sports flyers in their bags and was told that the school system's policy was to allow for handouts from religious groups if the handouts weren't overtly religious.

One of my oldest son's teachers gave everyone in the class bracelets with crosses on them on the last day of school. This was several years ago. She was pregnant and not coming back in the fall and, I assume, thought it was ok. My wife, wisely, kept this from me for a few months or else our principal would've gotten an earful. Just the other day we heard about a teacher at their school that read the Bible to her class last year.

Both of these were at Rocky Hill Elementary. It looks like there needs to be an inservice day about keeping religion out of the classroom.

It looks like there needs to be an inservice day about keeping religion out of the classroom.

Yeah, and maybe you could get Rep. Stacy Campfield to give it.

I am, frankly, appalled. This simply is not right, period.

pgs

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

I'm currently reading Religious Literacy by Stephen Prothero and it would be instructional for those who would like to examine these type issues further.

Tamara,

Interested in a little civil disobedience? I see possibilities for having these events disrupted as reward for Grace taking up valuable instruction time at Powell. I'm certain there would be many kids at Powell up to the challenge and creative enough to do it in an amusing way. Of course some media might need invited to record the event. Heh.

When conservative family members or friends ask me "how" I could be a member of the ACLU, I tell them I was raised Catholic in the South.

I asked about this and was told the following: Ken Freeman has been a speaker for our Character Counts curriculum for years. Yesterday's assembly was about making good choices and avoiding alcohol and other substance abuse. He's given this talk at other schools before and it's not religious in content. Apparently at the end of his talk he told the audience that he would be speaking again the next evening and said information about that talk was available at the back of the auditorium.

Tamara's initial post said "When I questioned my daughter about his remarks during the assembly, she replied that it did not appear to her that they were evangelical in any way, nor did she recall his making any reference to religion. It was her impression that Mr. Freeman was more intent on encouraging youth to "make good choices" generally."

Board policy IKCC 'Religious Expression' says the following:

Knox County Schools complies with existing state and federal law regarding religion and religious expression in public schools. Students and employees can engage in expression of personal religious views or beliefs within the parameters of current law. Knox County Schools neither advances nor inhibits religion.

Knox County Schools will take reasonable steps to protect students from religious coercion or harassment in schools promptly, equitably, and with civility. If a student or a student's parent or guardian believes that the student's rights with regard to personal religious beliefs have been violated, they shall state their complaint to the school principal. If their concerns are not addressed, then the student or a student's parent or guardian shall make a complaint in writing to the Superintendent. It shall be the duty of the Superintendent, within thirty (30) days of receiving the complaint, to ensure that the rights of the student are protected.

I don't care if my children bring home fliers for VBS, some mom selling Pampered Chef or anything else. I do care when academics are interrupted for somebody's tent revival, infomercials or coupon book pep rallies.

Thanks for your comments. In reference to an assertion I made earlier:

"...all students at Powell High School were removed from their fourth period classes to attend a general assembly for the purpose of learning about a 4-day event now underway at Grace Baptist Church

...I would expect to hear from school officials and/or school system officials that this was not their "purpose" at all. Again, the program delivered by the speaker at the in-school event apparently took a more secular bent and it is certainly possible that these officials did not authorize the distribution of tickets to the Grace Baptist event during the in-school assembly.

However, the "purpose" of Grace Baptist representatives who attended seems clear. Their intent appears to have been to promote their own event of a very different nature featuring this same speaker.

It may be, then, that school system officials are themselves the victims of Grace Baptist's "bait and switch" tactic.

If that is the case, I suppose a question arises of how school system officials may avoid being compromised by such churches in the future.

With regard to the school-level administrator's motive, it is also perfectly clear to me from the conversation I had with him that it was his intent to cause students to attend the Grace Baptist event hosted at that church this week. He said to me, quite explicitly, that he "didn't want them to miss it."

If my understanding of his motive is correct, a question also arises of how school officials may avoid being compromised by the desires of such school-level administrators.

However, the "purpose" of Grace Baptist representatives who attended seems clear. Their intent appears to have been to promote their own event of a very different nature featuring this same speaker.

I like how they try to lure the kids in by promising a chance to win an Xbox/Ipod or tv. Pathetic. What are Ken Freeman's credentials?

*edit...found it Link...

Looks like your typical Baptist fluff piece... Does he have a degree in social work?, education? Outside of him "loving him some Jesus" and helping to "save" over 200,000 people (rolls eyes) what the hell makes him so qualified to tell students "dont do drugs, drugs bad, drinking and driving kills...." blah blah blah...

two thoughts:

1. When you read Freeman's bio, it is clear that he intends to evangelize, even in "school auditoriums," in a "fresh, easy to understand manner that roots itself in God's word."

Ken’s approach to evangelism allows him to grab the attention of his audience through humor and his down to earth personality. His message, then, is always delivered in a fresh, easy to understand manner that roots itself in God’s word. Ken’s ability to be versatile allows him to communicate well in any setting, traditional or contemporary, school auditorium or church staff meeting, a large convention or an intimate retreat.

2. If indeed a school administrator said he "didn't want them to miss it (the 4 day event at Grace Baptist)" then that may rise to the level of coercion, which Indya indicates is in violation of KCS policy. "Knox County Schools will take reasonable steps to protect students from religious coercion or harassment in schools promptly, equitably, and with civility."

Now you kids are probably asking yourselves 'Hey Matt how can we get back on the right track!?'

rant

My mother was a member of Grace since the late forties. Once, while she was suffering from Alzheimer's, we had visitors from there. They had been next door to her house looking for her and a neighbor had told them she had moved in with me. They rang the bell and announced that they had been assigned to visit her and see if she had all her Sunday school lesson books and her tithe envelopes. This was before we had the solicitor-discouraging Gino.

Mama was at the stage where she could not complete an intelligible sentence and they kept looking at me as if a translation of her words was imminent. There was never any encouragement or even the standard, "If we can do anything to help, just call." They had apparently just wondered why her tithe had dried up. This was a long time after I had become her conservator and was desperately searching for ways to pay for her care while I had to be away at work. As politely as I could I asked them to leave my house.

My last encounter with that bunch was just before Mama's funeral. Somebody called me and asked if it would be permissible for a group from the church to visit the funeral home (in faraway Wartburg) on Tuesday night since I had done the blasphemous deed of scheduling the receiving of friends on Wednesday, a time when all good Baptists are at church.

As if they needed my permission. I stood properly admonished and told the gentleman to go ahead, she's not there anyway.

Until I was eighteen, I was 'encouraged' to attend that church and, under threat of the gaping jaws of hell, even joined it when I was twelve. Since a person can enter no other legally binding agreement at that tender age, I trust that God has forgiven me for that youthful indiscretion.

As a result of my experiences I have been known to tell proselytizers from their bigot factory that it is my firm belief that a true Southern Baptist and a Christian cannot exist in the same body.

Somewhere I still have a T shirt that says "Recovering Baptist" on the back. I bet it's too small to get into now.

/rant

Wearybottom Associates

bigot factory that it is my firm belief that a true Southern Baptist and a Christian cannot exist in the same body.

I can understand your disillusionment with the pastoral care that the church failed to offer, but I think your belief is a vast generalisation.

Consider the churches, of all denominations, that deliver food to the needy, reach out to the needy and sick on a regular basis, and support causes like the Mission of Hope, and most people would agree that these churches, including Southern Baptist ones, are following Christ's teachings.

Following it perfectly? No. But then churches are made up of people, and nobody's perfect.

It might sound a bit narrow, but I think any group with any religious affiliations at all should be barred from entering our public schools to speak to our children, no matter what trinkets they bring, and no matter how helpful their message might be. There are plenty of secular organizations out there with fantastic motivational speakers, and kids themselves have proven to do a very effective job.

I think way too much was made out of this. This was a motivational speaker and GOD or attending Grace Baptist Church was not the purpose of this assembly by any means. He was there to tell his story and to tell us about how our choices and how they affect our lives. I'm pretty sure if a student didn't feel comfortable taking a ticket and politley refused they wouldn't have been punished in anyway. I attended this assembly and I personally enjoyed it and thought he was there with good intent and not how you have portrayed it. I never once felt any pressure and I think some people like to take things and blow them out of proportion to get a rise out of people.

I'm not a member of Y-Teens so I can't answer your question. Now answer this question. Why should we not have a speaker like Ken Freeman be able to come in and talk to us about choices. Let me remind I don't recall hearing Grace Baptist but once and it wasn't even in a way that was to pressure us to attend their church like you make it sound. Because if it was then trust me I would be upset because I have a church and I don't like to be pressured to attend another one.

I see nothing wrong with allowing their representatives to speak in schools about personal responsibility.

It's unnecessary because teachers promote personal reponsibility on an hourly and daily basis.

Using phrases like "do your own work," "pay attention," "complete this assignment," and "wake up," is how most teachers do it.

I'm a believer and a regular church goer, but this seems like an attempt to "fly under the radar," by the promoters of this church event. It would be better if they promoted it through word-of-mouth.

I don't think high schoolers would let them down using that tactic.

What's the deal with giving away chances on goodies? I figured a Baptist would consider that gambling which is almost as bad as dancing. When I was growing up in a Baptist household, we were not even allowed a deck of cards.

I guess there are those who believe that the ends justify the means if the church is more like a business than a real church.

Wearybottom Associates

First, my son went to the assembly too. He said that he enjoyed it quite a bit, but didn't take the ticket as we have a church home. By the way, the tickets were given out at the back of the auditorium and to my knowledge, nothing out of the way was said to any of the kids that refused the tickets. He said that there was no preaching, religious promoting or any arm twisting to attend the program at Grace. The guy really did talk about making good choices and mentioned that they could hear more at the Grace event.

I don't mind for one minute the kids going to the occasional assembly during class time, it's probably a good break for them. Plus, I appreciate any help I can get when it comes to positive influences for today's kids. I guess I'll call the school in the morning to counter your complaining and to encourage more Charater Counts, personal responsibility or any other POSITIVE motivational asseblies. Indya, I hope your reading this.

On to my idea, as you have such strong feelings concerning this, why don't you run for the school board instead of beating your chest in a blog? I bet your kids regret ever telling you anything that goes on. You are attempting to make a mountian out of a mole hill.

mentioned that they could hear more at the Grace event.

How is this not promoting a religious event in the confines of an institution of public education? Especially if the school system gave the speaker the authority to speak? Looks to me like a violation of the Establishment clause.

Beaver Dam Baptist has done stuff like this at Hall Middle and High for years. You couldn't get away with it in a less isolated area. But the school board says their annual "crusade" is legal.

What no one is being told here is this program, and any other NON-school related program was VOLUNTARY. The kids could have opted out and done something else. My child has opted out of several programs in the past. But hey, don't let that stand in your way of chest thumping.

Tamara, I "get it" more then you think. The reason I said what you quoted was, in your many posts you made it sound as if the kids were forced to take the tickets (my words, not yours). This just simply was not the case, they were OFFERED the tickets. My son, who I believe shares forth period with your daughter, politely refused the ticket as did many others. Nothing out of the way was said to any of them. If the kids were in any way made to feel bad or guilty for not taking te tickets, I would have been at the school the next morning.

Again, you are attempting to make something out of absolutely nothing.

Oh, this program was offered at more schools other than Powell. Wonder why no one else is whinning about it? HHhhmmmmmmm.

and really didn't affect any change?

You mean all those competent career civil servants up in the AJ building have been ignoring you?

Surprise, surprise.

I've spoken with all our school board members about this incident and some others prior

It comes in handy sometimes to have all those pandering polticians around, doesn't it?

Did you know Mr.Freeman also spoke at a Powell Middle School assembly? And I never once recall them twisting my arm to go to anything or take any tickets. This is my opinion you have yours and if you feel like this is a big enough issue to take to our school board members then go ahead but just know this was an approved assembly and your daughter did not have to attend if she didn't want to. I know I was informed of the speaker and what he was there to talk about if your daughter would have asked her teacher I'm sure they would have gladly explained the assembly to her as they did with me. You have taken this and blown it up to be more than it should be.

So it appears these students were offered a ticket. If they WANTED to take one, they could. If they WANTED to stay out of the assembly, they could. These adults obviously cared enough about our children to bring in Mr. Freeman. His credentials? I do not know. As for me, if I am drowning and someone cares enough to try to rescue me, I think I will just wait until someone swims out that I feel is "qualified" to try to rescue me.

Also, regarding the reference to gambling; for something to be considered a gamble, you have to put up something that you risk losing. The tickets were free.

Hopefully, most of us are teaching our children to stand up for what they believe in. Is that a life-lesson or just something we tell them because it sounds "parental"? What about when they are adults? The adults that were offering (not forcing) the tickets were doing just that, doing something with what they believe because they care about these kids. This assembly and the tickets that were offered to the students (who wanted to take one) did no harm to any of them...and no, I was not one of the adults there from Grace.

I believe school campuses have been used in rural areas for churches to bring in coats and clothing during school hours. In short, of course there are different religious views and that is part of our rights as Americans. We express ours, you express yours. Meanwhile we have pregnant middle schoolers, drugs in schools, and it seems more and more of our kids are either becoming or are victims of drunk drivers. And yet we spend this much time and resource complaining because some people came and offered our kids and invitation to hear a man speak at a church.

Regarding the prizes being "bait". I attended the event with my daughter. None of the students (even assuming a few came solely for the chance of winning something) arrived and felt tricked because they realized they were at a church, and after the prizes were awarded (at the beginning, before Mr. Freeman spoke) there was not a mass Exodus of students from the room.

Again, were the students harmed? Ask the over 130 that came to know Jesus Christ as their savior last night, as did many of their parents.

Are the kids in this movie trailer Link... saved from the evil world?

The kid in the clip says he was saved at age 5. What age do you advise?

So it appears these students were offered a ticket. If they WANTED to take one, they could. If they WANTED to stay out of the assembly, they could.

I've heard different stories as to whether going to the assembly was mandatory or not. That makes a big difference. In fact, it may make all the difference, legally.

Poltically, it's probably a different story. The question that Christians need to ask themselves is if the Muslim Community of Knoxville ever wanted to do something like this, would it be allowed? Or would the public want to allow it?

Probably not.

Ask the over 130 that came to know Jesus Christ as their savior last night, as did many of their parents.

I met him at one of the candidate forums. Nice fella. Good Democrat.

Killer abs.

In the experience of my youth with this same church, it's pretty easy to get a kid to 'come to know Jesus' when several adults repeatedly offer the gaping jaws of hell as the alternative.

Fortunately I don't believe that God holds a grudge against me for signing on with that bunch when I was twelve, after all I was just a minor. In my adult life I abandoned the Baptists and became a Christian.

Lenny Bruce once said the people were leaving the churches in droves . . . . . . and going back to God.

BTW the tickets were not free. Somebody paid for those tickets and they expected a return on their investment. Looks like they got it, too.

Wearybottom Associates

Can you imagine the uproar if somebody managed to get Tom Cruise to give a little motivational talk at Powell and, just in passing, he mentioned Scientology?

Wearybottom Associates

Between some peoples' disdain for the church, and organized religion, and others' support for it, I haven't seen answers to the fundamental question about this assmembly.

Was it mandatory, were kids given a choice whether to go or not, and if not, did it violate the Constitution?

Everything else is pretty much irrelevant.

assmembly

No, that wasn't a Freudian Slip typo.

That's your fundamental question. Mine is; Does anything from any church belong in a government owned building?

That depends on what the policies are concerning who can use a building when it is not being used by the government, or when school is in session. The government can't ban religious organizations, but let every other group use the building.

No disrespect to you Mrs. Shepard but I think you have way too much time on your hands and not much of a life to worry about something so trivial. I mean I wish you could put this effort to something that would be positive and not something like the speaker at Powell High School. I think there are alot worse things that go on in our world everyday. I don't find a speaker coming in to speak to a group of high school students one of them. Be thankful the school system cares enough about your children to want them to make positive choices in life.

. . . a Wahabist Muslim shows up at Powell High and schedules an assembly.

This person would be invited to speak because:

. . . school system cares enough about your children to want them to make positive choices in life.

Yeah, right.

Wearybottom Associates

An in-depth review of our American history reveals the paradox of how our shared national vision for “religious freedom” evolved by jerks and sputters.

It’s certainly true that William Brewster and his fellow Separatists rejected the confines of the Church of England, and that they settled Virginia in 1620 to live their collective faith with greater independence. How ironic, then, that these same settlers accepted delivery of the nation’s first Negro slaves, born to America from England on the ship Jesus of Lubeck, just twelve years later. Through the lens of history, we wonder at the gaps in Puritan theology that allowed this culture to arise.

Similarly, John Winthrop’s Puritans settled in nearby Massachusetts in 1630 to reform, but not reject, the Church of England. The government these settlers established “selected” candidates for citizenship and voting rights, and soon began a practice of physically branding and even killing those of emerging faiths, including early Baptists and Quakers.

A century and a half of cult-like exiles, murders, and great discord followed these earliest attempts at planting a civilization on this new frontier. Ultimately, a widespread general belief in God survived the chaos and came to be expressed by many colonists, including George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison, as Deism. The percentage of colonists affiliated with specific churches, though, declined to just ten percent.

This was the cultural and religious context, then, in which delegates to the Constitutional Convention arrived in Philadelphia in 1787. Southern delegates were especially vocal that the new government should not impose religious requirements for voting or holding office. When Patrick Henry proposed a tax to support a national Christian church, his motion was defeated, and James Madison wrote of that debate that “The same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects.”

This concern still weighed on Madison when he worked to pen our Bill of Rights just three years later. His original text of the First Amendment read: “The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience in any manner or on any pretext be infringed.”

Madison’s peers, however, believed that this enumeration of government powers might actually limit their scope and invite abuse. The "Establishment Clause,” they reasoned, was broad enough to cover unforeseeable threats. In the end, the text we know was given greater import, that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

This nation’s road to fostering a culture of religious freedom that does not sacrifice our national unity has been no less bumpy in recent times. Amid much contention, the U. S. Supreme Court delivered its landmark decision on religion in schools in the 1962 case Engel vs. Vitale. Although the court spoke specifically to the unconstitutionality of government-led prayer in public schools, its 6-1 vote that such activity violates the Establishment Clause is understood more generally to prohibit the promotion of a religion in schools, even if that promotion is not coercive.

In his prevailing opinion, Justice Hugo Black summarized thusly: “A union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion.”

Lets not forget Jefferson's Bible. He took out all the voodoo magic tricks.

okay so you all say that "halls has it?" but let me rem