Wed
Nov 28 2007
09:07 am

The implications in this are very large. It starts with a wink towards improper search and seizure because the raids only affect poor people who might be criminals. But it is a slippery slope that quickly goes from "them" to "us". The excuses the government is using to break the back of our constitutional protections are varied and some even sound like they make sense, but these large dragnets not only scoop up those guilty of a crime,they obviously can harass and embarass innocent people.

"San Diego County’s district attorney has a program called Project 100% that is intended to reduce welfare fraud. Applicants for welfare benefits are visited by law enforcement agents, who show up unannounced and examine the family’s home, including the insides of cabinets and closets. Applicants who refuse to let the agents in are generally denied benefits."

You can be sure these teams are not using kid gloves, but if you're a welfare recipient "suspected" of fraud who will care?

Those would destroy our 4th Amendment rights will say the statue was never meant to protect criminals. That's the open door too many people are rushing through right now. Criminal or not, people have constitutional rights. Loyal Americans stand by them. There is only one word for people who want to tear up the rights of individuals in the name of protection of the group--anti-American. Let the chips fall where they may. Somebody said, "What ye do unto the least.." Oh, yeah, because the next group on the list to be wrongfully treated might be your group.

The usual simplistic thinkers will say, "If they have nothing to hide why should they worry?"

They simply don't realize this is exactly the kind of mentality that allows Democracy to die. If we aren't going to be a nation that stands up for individual rights, even the rights of criminals, then we might as well bow down to people like Osama bin Laden and adopt Shira law.

Stan G's picture

Who Are You Calling Anti-American?

It appears the usual simplistic thinkers to whom you refer includes both the Ninth US Circuit Court and the US Supreme Court

Carole Borges's picture

I wasn't aware the Supreme court condoned this...

Even this conservative Supreme Court will not find it okay for anyone to demand that a welfare recipient must (if they didn't agree they were stricken from benefits) allow random searchs of their living space. If they do then this country's descent into gestapo-ism will literally make me feel sick to my stomach. There are many other ways to prevent fraud.

Spending time and money to raid people's homes on a "suspicion" of welfare fraud is ridiculous. Period. It is a set-up for abuses and only meant to scare people, not only those who commit fraud, but all welfare recipients. Very Republican, but still anti-American.

S Carpenter's picture

reductio ad absurdum

Here's a link I found helpful for background

Under the rationale that welfare fraud is significant enough of a state interest to overcome the individual's entitlement to a welfare check, the Sup Ct might also be OK with the IRS agent checking your house and to see junior's room, his bicycle in the garage, the medicine cabinet, and so on. A search for Jr's belongings and evidence that he is truly your dependent would be OK.

Claim the deduction and get the inspection. Your next audit just got a little more uncomfortable.

Carole Borges's picture

Those examples reflect the absurdity I am talking about...

Should every student receiving a government loan for school expect the "verifiers" to make a home visit? How about Veteran's benefits? The victims of Katrina? Hey, how about taxpayers. God knows more fraud appears there than in the welfare system.

C'mon folks. We've got much bigger problems in this world than welfare fraud and rules are already on the books to prevent it. When I was a welfare worker, I had to document everything, have a home visit (not a random search), and I reported anything irregular to the investigative unit in our office. The cases referred there were miniscule compared to our caseload.

This whole thing is yet another smokescreen to turn our attention away from the rampant corruption infecting our government at the highest levels.

Stan G's picture

Agree or Not, It's the System

Not being an attorney and not knowing the facts, Scott, I personally am not taking a position; and, therefore, I'm relying on the decision of the courts. In this instance the applicants give permission for the search when they apply for benefits.

As far as the IRS in concerned, you had better believe that every return in reviewed electronically to determine whether a taxpayer is entitled to deduct claimed dependents and to determine whether the taxpayer is entitled to claim the earned income credit. It’s simply more efficient to ask specific questions and to verify the answers, and it’s more efficient to ask the taxpayer to submit proof of entitlement before conducting an on site investigation.

To update your referenced article, the Supreme Court was asked to review the Ninth Circuit Court decision and on Monday of this week they declined to do so.

Edit which I attempted to post before Carole's response: Reading the article you posted, Scott, I note it refers to "unannounced visits" not to raids. I recall many years ago my cousin who was then fulfilling her student loan obligation by working as a public health nurse in NYC mentioning that part of her job was to make unannounced visits.

Carole Borges's picture

Scumbag crime vs blue collar vs white collar?

Crime is crime. If you somehow feel less emotional about tax fraud than you do about welfare fraud, it is possible your sense of ethics is a little skewed.

Would you advocate home and business inspections for every taxpayer in the US, just to be sure none of them might be commiting fraud? They are after all stealing money from the national treasury.

Laws protecting us from pre-emptive search and seizure have to be preserved because by extension they could lead to all of us.

Tax evasion (fraud) is not just a current problem, but a growing one. I personally know people who haven't paid taxes in years. They work under the table, and they lie about their business expenses. I also know someone who called the IRS because their ex-husband's fraud about his income was affecting their child support payments. He hadn't filed taxes in 7 years. The IRS said they had a huge file on that person and would eventually get around to addressing the problem. That was several years ago and no one has done anything.

From the IRS.gov website: "Recent research by Graetz (1999) and Schneider and Enste (2000) concludes that global tax evasion is on the rise. However, the authors differ in their assessments as to what is causing this trend. Schneider and Enste cite a rising tax and regulatory burden as the reason for an expanding shadow economy among OECD countries. Graetz sees the growing complexity of Federal income tax laws as the driving factor behind increased noncompliance in the U.S. This paper suggests a third possibility: Taxpayers simply may be enjoying greater success at evasion due to a decline in transaction visibility. U.S. taxpayer data show that nonmatchable income has grown from 8.7 percent of reported AGI in
1980 to 18.4 percent in 2000. Applying constant misreporting rates for matchable and nonmatchable income from the 1988 TCMP study, taxpayer underreporting is estimated to have increased from 3.6 percent to 5.6 percent of reported AGI between 1980 and 2000.

The decline in transaction visibility appears related to the trend of widening income inequality. In the last two decades, the top 5 percent of U.S. taxpayers with the highest reported AGI accounted for over 77 percent of the increase innonmatchable income. Preliminary evidence is found for the hypothesized relationship between income inequality and a measure of tax noncompliance for asample of 23 developed and developing nations. This finding supports the view that a widening variation in taxpayer incomes, and the associated decline in transaction visibility, could be contributing to the presumed growth in taxpayer noncompliance."

(Someone said not to post PDF links on this site, but non-compliance issues and this excerpt was taken from the IRS.gov pages).

S Carpenter's picture

More bad policy than bad law

Stan, I agree that it is not a 4th amendment problem per se because taking welfare does not give the gov't the power to search. You can say no when they come to your door.

The absurd track of such policies and where they will lead was the point I was attempting to express.

The efficacy of the policy is also in question. The article suggests that the rate of applicants now turned down has increased 9 percent. They do not indicate an increase in the rate of prosecutions.

I'd guess (but can't demonstrate) that the cost of sending an investigator/police officer to houses to search for evidence of fraud exceeds the $250 to $500 cost of the welfare check per house.

Stan G's picture

Carole

I take it your comments were directly at me and quite frankly I have no idea what your point is. I’m not emotionally involved with either welfare fraud or tax fraud and I am certainly not ranking one above the other.

When a welfare recipient applies for benefits in San Diego, they authorize the department to make unannounced visits. When I taxpayer signs a tax return, it is signed under penalty of perjury that the return is true, correct, and complete. The IRS does not accept that statement at face value; it in fact confirms specific items such as W-2 and 1099 income, dependents, etc. against information stored in it’s and the Social Security Administration’s databases. I have no problem with either system and I have no reason to object to either system any more than I do Redflex cameras simply because you take exception to them.

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