While this kind of endeavor has some very worthwhile precedents, like the Sufi restaurant I frequented in Boston, the approach will I hope be subtle. To many of us who frequent the Square there is already a sacred feeling about the it. The Grotto for instance, Tomato head, and many other fine shops, already offer a diversity of ideas and provide a strong sense of community for people who enjoy good food and art. Art and freedom expression are scared to me.

This proposed religious center hopefully will join hands with the owners of the other Market Square properties, not try to take the lead in setting a different tone for this successful area. One of the great drawbacks to bringng people downtown has been the approach of panhandlers. It would be a shame if a cadre of interns from this institution got carried away with using the Square as a place to heavy-handedly recruit Christian converts. Personally, I don't want anyone uninvited approaching me in Market Square.

Until more is known about what kinds of community outreach the center plans, I'll have to reserve judgement on it's being a good additon to the Market Square area. Sometimes the Christian idea of charity unwittingly causes problems. The homeless population problem in Knoxville for instance has in some ways been assisted by Christian organizations that want to do good work, but often have no need for long term solutions.

The Rescue Mission and other Christian groups here concentrate mostly on free daily meals, charity, and temporary shelter rather than on permenant housing and individual rehabilitation through good case management. While food and temporary shelter are necessary, there is no excuse for allowing people to sprawl in humiliating public display right outside their door. It does seem the city and these organizations are taking more initiative now to solve the problem, but that might have happened sooner if the large population of homeless here wasn't being maintained on the streets in the first place. Because of the free food and tolerance of what really amounts to "hobo camps", Knoxville has become a haven for vagrants.

The sacred quality of Market Square lies in its central location, it's upbeat vital energy, and its offering of quality goods. It is a place of diversity and it has a sense of village square about it that is enchanting.

The inclusion of a religious organization in the middle of an established area that has already proven its ability to atract visitors, young people, older people and families to our downtown, can enrich and add to the sense of the Square, but only if its purpose is to join in helping to support the nucleus of excitement that has sprung up there.

In the statement above I didn't hear any affirmation about the desire of this organization to join with the other merchants there. Instead I got a strong feeling of competition with other businesses, as the proposed retail spaces appear to offer things that already exist in the Square.

Do we really need another restaurant or coffee shop? I'd prefer to see a good bookstore like Carpe Librum down there or an ice cream parlor or a grocery store like Trader Joe's.

To many of us who live downtown or close to downtown, Market Square is a sacred place already. I hope 4 Market Square consideres and respects this. If they do they might really add to the diversity there by providing a space that is uniquely Christian for our many Christian residents and visitors.

I hope they will take the Bibical admonition to "honor they neighbors" seriously.

So what if you're a young person with leadership qualities who would like to stay in Knoxville, but your're not a Christian? I guess this town isn't interested in supporting and nurturing those folks?

Maybe this is a great program, but anything that ties community leadership too closely to Chrisianity (or any other religion) makes me a little queasy.

Update: I don't mean to imply that there's anything wrong with private groups using private money to do whatever they want. There's not. Nor do I have anything against Christians.

But this isn't the only manifestation of the linkage of religion with business & government leaders in this town, and it does make me a bit uncomfortable.

"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes

Curious - who's on the board? If it's a 501(c)(3), that info is public.

"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes

I didn't mean to suggest that the Rescue Mission or any of the Christian charities hasn't got the purest of motives. I really honor their commitment and the hard work they have done in a situation pretty much ignored by everyone else. I just don't think soup kitchens and temporary housing alone can help solve the agony of homelessness.

Being a little wary of Christian organizations is I think a logical emotion considering the fact that so many in the Evangelical movement have stated clearly their desire to organize into a political instrument and to somehow change the world into one dominated by Christian scripture (as they interpret them).

These groups have been both pushy and extraordinarily judgemental. Their narrow stance towards gays for instance has roused many people to fear and hate millions of innocent people. Politically they threaten women's rights and embryonic stem cell research and public protests of all kinds. I know the vast majority of Christians cannot be identified with these kinds of movements, but it does make sense to try to protect yourself, your community, and your country from being influenced unduly by them. I consider them to be a potentially dangerous component of society.

I agree that reserving jusgement is important. Personally I try to wait until I learn about and visit new organizations that could impact the community before I judge them. Recently, for instance, I visited the Knox Life Church at the Regal Cinema, and I found the pastor and his wife there to be very sincere and innovative in their approach.

Sure, let's wait to see see what this new organization will bring to Market Square, but also let's not dismiss people's honest concern about new organizations seeking to be a powerful part of our downtown community.

Just being "Christian" doesn't automatically make me respect and welcome them.

I used to feel the same way you do, SammySkull. It was hard not see Christianity as a historically bigoted cult full of hypocrisy and torture and worse. Their damnation of innocent babies from "Original Sin" seemed totally self-serving and empirically contrary to reason. The Kingdom of Heaven as an actual place somewhere (until fairly recently) just above the clouds has always seemed ridiculous if taken literally.

However...

Several profound life experiences have made me believe very deeply that some Universal spirit does exist, that it can be amazingly sustaining and available in times of dire need, and is quite capable of performing miracles. This is, I think, the reason relignos exist because people have experienced this phenomena first-hand and want to share it with others.

That's the simple part.

Mix in different sects and right away you get divisions, human and therefore fallible intermediares (like priests, nuns, preachers, tenets, and rules). You can also get hypocrites, weak leaders susceptible to corruption, and total distortions about divinity itself. The Bible can become more than just the recordings of a Master's life. It can become a rule book open to thousands of interpretations. Including many that are used by hateful people to foment all kinds of human evils.

In my life experience, I have discovered that there are good people trying to be better people through the practice of religion, and I truly honor this. It doesn't matter what religion they belong to, if any. These people are privately working on their own spiritual knowledge and willing to share it with anyone who is eager to talk about it with an open mind. They have no desire to convert, no evangelical need to usher other people towards one particular path or another. They are, to use your words, having and developing a "private" connection to the Divine.

These people have no need to preach to others or feel superior to others because they find their joy and satisfaction draws others to them naturally. Truly spiritual people are living role models of the qualities most of us need and are seeking in our own lives. I find them very appealing. It would indeed be a better world if we all were working hard to be manifestations of Divine love.

I find that the people I really admired came from every sect imaginable and some from no sect at all, and this liberated me from my prejudice against people who had a strong empirical sense of the Divine. As someone who tends to look for the good rather than the bad, I began opening to the possibility of a spiritual root rather than a box-like house full of books of law written by ancient men to plot out the pathways to damnation or salvation. In other words, I began to seek the Divine love within myself and tried to express those qualities outwardly. Not an easy task by the way.

My wariness over sects (I include all religions in this catagory) has not diminished entirely. I feel they are often an obstacle to self-realized bellef and can really damage those they want to help because of their concepts about what's good and what's evil and what one needs to do in order to receive Grace. In this respect most of them come dangerously close, in my estimation, to cults.

I'm a strong advocate of seperation of Church and State. I believe our Democracy will disappear if we throw that away.

As you pointed out, it was the leadership role in our political community that made me pause when it came to the Market Square group. I recently heard that Mayor Haslam's family has invested a lot of private financial support to this group. Couldn't that cause a bias when it comes to TIFs and other decisions the city might have to make about the proposed businesses on the site? Religious organizations don't have to pay the same taxes corporations do. This fact has caused considerable discussion about these hybrid businmess/church propositions. Churches are becoming investors. They are buying properties and starting businesses in them. Which portion of a building is taxable then and which is not?

The Market Square group does challenge me to consider these things. It also makes me want not to condemn them until I see what they are actually going to do.

Food for thought is always welcome at my table.

they ignore His teachings and seek passages from the Old Testament to use as sticks when telling others how to behave

Thank you! This is what I should have said, however I chose to rant and not really make my point.

"We all saw the sparks fly in San Diego. As horrific as that was, that's what we want to happen spiritually in Knoxville," Lotz said.

Such a violent image! The end result could hardly be called beautiful. It was total destruction.

Very odd.

We would like to see this. pgs
Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

Living Christian values and being involved in positive community empowerment impresses me greatly. There is nothing more compelling as far as spreading Christianity goes than having someone you really admire tell you sincerely their life is the way it is because of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, there is nothing more irritating than having someone try to boast about their Christian beliefs in a way that diminishes other great religions or to stresses the hell and damnation aspect of faith and start giving you the "inside" word on who is or isn't going to burn in hell. Puhleeeese! Spare me those lectures.

As a retired teacher and one-time homeless specialist in Lynn, MA, near Boston. I can honestly say that having good case management and shelters with serious rehab expertise are the two most important things. Band-aid solutions like soup kitchens or day centers, do a terrific short-term job, but they won't decrease the homeless population. The idea that it is somehow okay to have people living in 3rd world conditions beneath your bridges is not going to solve anything. It will just encourage more homelessness.

Many homeless people are drug or alcohol addicted. They need special treatment centers especially long term or whole family shelters. Same for those with mental illnesses. There just isn't enough case management available. We also included homeless prevention. We mediated with landlords and tenants to help people retain housing, and gave housing search assistance with follow up to be sure people were retaining the housing we found for them. We had vast referral and resource knowledge and had built up very good realtionships with the DMH, local hospitals, and many non-profit organizations.

There will always be a few people on the streets, but a large percentage can be placed in subsidized housing, find jobs if given training, and lead more diginified lives.

How Knoxville Fellows will fit into the downtown picture remains to be seen, but religious and secular community components can exist happily side-by-side. I mentioned the Sufis in Boston before. They were such nice people and served such great food everyone admired them. One thing they didn't do was hand you a Sufi pamphlet along with your tofu and brocoli dinner. You only knew they were a part of an urban Sufi community through word of mouth. To their credit what was passed along was always good.

I see no agenda in wanting people to be able live their truth openly and safely, in wanting for all people to be treated as equal with no restrictions. Agendas come into play when people seek to actively effect a change in how others are able to live their lives, especially when it comes to religious based condemnation.

I personally appreciate your posts concerning this, Clinton, but I still can't help but be concerned about most religious organizations. It's hard for some of us not to be a little afraid in light of the damaging and hurtful things done all too often in the name of religion.

Downtown Knoxville has an odd mix of Butcher money, pot money, oil money and now some pseudo religion thrown in. I think I'll go with the pot.

If we had an award for funniest KnoxViews comment, that would be right up there among the finalists. At least so far today.

will we someday see an intersection where Jesus finds taking a little toke now and then might just be another path toward enlightenment?

Someone once said all movement is circular.

Certainly the churches need some loosening up. I think these contempo religions might spark something akin to the Hippie Era. Everyone high on God. Flowers instead of guns. Love the poor. No, he's not heavy he's your brother.

On the other hand, they could go the way of Jim Bakker and Enron. Highly trained Trump like leaders, Jesus franchises opening in every mall.

Very interesting culturally. It does make the mind real.

I'm all for love though and a connection to the Universal powers that be, whatever the path, so I'm enjoying watching the changes these churches are going through.

Let's not start rumors.
Rick is married to Bev. His brother Russell is married to Ruthie.

Rick strongly cares for people, regardless of religion. His desire and passion is to help young people make the best of themselves and his talents are suited to that end.

so to be a fellow in this endeavor, do you have to be a Christian? Or will Muslim, Jewish, or other faith groups be included?

Clearly unless you are an athiest God is behind everything. This is common across nearly every major religion. Personal preference determines which God the individual believes in and what said God is behind. This would include other Market Square projects as well. As to whether or not you could be Muslim for example and be a part of the project that would be up to the directors I would assume. Being that it is a privately funded project on private property I'm not sure it matters or that you could do anything about it.

It looks like you're searching for total inclusion here or else its somehow broken. Don't pass up very very good in your search for perfection. You won't find it in government or anywhere else. As a matter of fact perfection doesn't exist here (on earth).

Does Mitt Romney own all the Mormons now? Sorry my Mom's an English teacher and I'm a smart aleck, I couldn't resist.

Thanks for that link. It sheds more light on the Fellows future plans.

My biggest concern has always been the taking over of Market Square, the conversion (if you will) of a space that has evolved because of its artistic, free-spiritedness, its true Market Place inclusiveness, into a convienent front yard and parking garage for a mega-church that sees its mission as a way to bring Christ into secular downtown life.

According to the letter linked on the above post, the Knoxville Fellows Church seems to be the same as the All Soul's Church. Why the name change? The All Soul's Church has some interesting facts about the intentions of this church.

The capacity of the crowds they expect to draw could cause problems. Heavy traffic, a packed parking lot full worshippers rather than shoppers and strollers, doesn't sound very appealing to me. If the church draws too many people will anyone even be able to access The Farmers Market and other businesses? Have you ever seen the flow of traffic following a mega-church service? Don't the UT games congest our downtown enough? I worry Sundays (and maybe more days) will now see too many church goers gobbling up free spaces in our MUNICIPAL parking garage.

The Xmas Eve service on Market Square is also something that I wonder might be construed as favoritism, and it raises a lot of questions. Can any church hold their services in Market Square? Have any other religious organizations attempted to so? Would a Muslim religious event be welcome there on Ramadan or a Jewish service on Passover? Will this be a one time event or will Market Square services be common? I hope not. I do not think a Christian service in a public square that was built with taxpayer money is a good use of that space.

Already it seems to me this Church's overflow into the public domain could be very large. I understand this possibility might be considered great by the organization, but this kind of spoils the hope I had that the Church would confine its "churching" to its own rented space.

It just seemed rather odd to me to imagine a particular church holding their actual service in a public square, but then again...

I'm not against an infusion of spirituality into the community. I think that can even be inspiring. For instance, I really enjoyed the gospel event with the Lonesome Coyotes last summer. No one preached though.

Only time will tell about the possible 300-600 hoped for people the church said in their letter they were planning to draw for their services and where they will park.

Somehow I don't think the Wests or their crime should be dragged into this. I don't think anyone, no matter how much they liked the Wests personally, condoned their illegal drug trafficking or money laundering. It shouldn't be an either/or choice for Market Square's image---God or drug dealing. Personally I'd prefer neither. I like the artistic, boutique shops, and fine restaurant image best. Mega anything there seems out of sync with the atmosphere that has been evolving.