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Dr. Pete's latestSubmitted by smalc on Mon, 2007/10/15 - 1:43pm.
I came to knoxviews today looking forward to a nice blasting of Pete Stevens' latest editorial in yesterday's N-S. I can't believe nobody has posted yet, it's got to be one of his most offensive. To summarize, it's your fault if your poor. Get off your butts! ( categories: )
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People pay for this through their subscriptions. It's like Townhall.com sent "postage due."
____________________________
"Respect mah authoritah!" - Fred Cartman Thompson
it's your fault if your poor.
Sometimes it is.
Get off your butts!
Sometimes this is good advice, albeit not politically corect in today's times.
Yup, poverty is a behavorial disorder. Besides, poor people are fat.
(And for those of you who don't know me, that's quoting Dr. Pete.)
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
Sometimes? That means it can be quantified. Please tell us how much of the time.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Sometimes this is good advice
That's a well and good if you are talking to someone you know. Certainly there are plenty of people who could work harder and could use a little kick in that direction, but Dr. Pete's column is not about individuals, is it? In fact, he speaks in broad formulas and specifically identifies racial groups.
He leans hard on the canard that poor people vote for Democrats. I'm sure you've done enough voter analysis to know that the poor do not vote in any significant numbers. Voting is disproportionately done by the retired, the only constituency every politician from both parties bends over backwards to please.
Aside from being flagrantly wrong, Dr. Pete is not trying to help the poor extract themselves from poverty. He is addressing Republicans and trying to instill a culture of disregard.
Empirically, we can look at what Republicans have done to to either help or hinder the poor's ability to work their way to prosperity:
Given that Republican policies generally make climbing from poverty more arduous and booby-trapped, it is obvious that what Dr. Pete is doing is providing rationalizations for Republicans to keep being regressive and obstructionist. For all the pious talk about hard work and free markets, you'd think Republicans would have ideas for addressing poverty and rising health care costs, but the only role they ever play is screaming platitudes so loud no one trying to solve problems can be heard.
Meanwhile, a radically expensive culture of dependency has developed between war profiteers and politicians who support an aggressive, entangled foreign policy.
Your party is intellectually and morally bankrupt and dragging our country down with it. All that is left is keeping the bubble of obliviousness inflated, and blowhards like Dr. Pete and Rush Limbaugh are the fumes in the tank.
Man, talk about elitist.
~Russ
1. 1% of population earns 21% of income.
2. 55% of population earns 13% of all income.
3. 1% of population owns 55% of all stocks.
4. 1% of population controls more wealth than the bottom 90%.
Income gap is up another 2%.
No big mystery. Anybody can do it. (Yes, that is intended to be sarcasm).
I had a bead on it but just didn't have much time. Maybe others are burned out on it. Then again, that means I would have had to actually, like, read it. It looks like my presumption was correct, though. The way to end poverty is to neglect the problem and let the poor and disadvantaged fend for themselves.
Like the beer commercial: Brilliant! Dr. Pete should have all of his belongings, financial accounts, resume, and job trail stripped away so he can put his mon--,er--empty hat, where his mouth is. Yet, even that wouldn't start to put him at the disadvantage of most the poor. What a dip.
Union busting has reduced worker's ability to bargain for fair pay
Contract labor has taken away job security and benefits
And created tens of thousands of jobs in right to work states. Unions are still powerful and clinging to every bit of influence they can. But, they are fading. It's a different world than 40+ years ago.
Globalization has moved jobs out of the country
Try technology and transportation as key reasons jobs can move to lower wages overseas. Americans have an appetite for cheap goods. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's a fact.
Predatory lending has become the industry standard for everyone but the financially secure
People are buying houses they can't afford. There are creditors who will offer, but it doesn't mean buyers have to accept.
Subsidies have put small farms at a disadvantage
And created markets and jobs.
Bailouts and favors put small businesses at a disadvantage
Bailouts are usually done to save jobs, likely more jobs at a large plant than the small business. Though, I will agree that small businesses are the backbone of America.
Minorities, including women (technically not a minority), have a harder time getting loans, jobs, raises and promotions
Often due to decisions about education, having children, among other reasons not tied to gender or ethnicity.
Legal troubles are more likely to result in incarceration if you are poor
Studies show this is likely true, but is commiting a crime somehow required of the poor?
Schooling is less effective in poor neighborhoods
Parental involvement is likewise lower. There is no option for poor people. Rich folks can afford private schools, tutors and other benefits. We keep the poor in poor schools. Schools must perform or allow parents more options.
Suburbanization makes cars indispensable
Yep, we have a big country. I guess we could all live in an urban area. But, that's not gonna happen.
Decay and fragmentation of traditional neighborhoods weakens community
For various reasons many people have little sense of neighborhood anymore. They work, come home and rarely take part in community activities. They don't spend time with their neighbors. It's technology, two income families, kids with a zillion activities. People are creating 'dens' and neighborhoods are suffering.
Polluting industries are more likely to locate near the poor and to employ them
It's called cheap land and access to workers.
CBT: "There are creditors who will offer, but it doesn't mean buyers have to accept."
A couple of researchers at NYU have found that if you are black or Hispanic you could not get anything other than a subprime loan even if you had a high credit rating and a proper down payment. You folks can believe that horseshit about American home ownership, but as soon as the wrong folks try to access that part of the American dream, it's their fault that bad loan instruments exist, not the banks. Right. You are smarter than this.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
All you've done is switch to a different frame of reference. No doubt many of the changes I cited are good when viewed from the perspective of a stockholder or a currency trader, but we were talking about the poor working to better themselves. All the trends I listed, regardless of benefits they might accrue on someone, have made it harder to pull yourself up by the bootstraps. "More jobs" is not particularly helpful when those jobs offer less pay, less security, less leverage, less benefits and less freedom.
You seem to think that macrolevel economic growth necessarily translates into better opportunity for everyone, but it is your failure to dig deeper and notice how that growth is increasingly hoarded at the top that leads me to conclude that Republicans are bankrupt of both awareness and ideas. They have their precious ideals to shield them from reality. Dr. Pete is such an ingrate to the government that created and maintains his comfort that he painted himself as a tax slave. He is a disgrace.
Rikki is hits it on the head. Sometimes when people bend over to grab their bootstraps, they get kicked in the ass. The people doing the ass kicking aren't necessarily the government, and usually are not. See Countrywide Loans.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
CBT, I sincerely doubt that you can back that statement up with any peer reviewed study. This is more self justification in action. The rest of your comments are similarly vacuous. Do you ever actually think about the statements you make, or is sophistry good enough for you?
Right to work state.
What you are ACTUALLY talking about is a state wherein employers can FIRE someone for any reason or no particular reason at all because they don't have the power and collective strength of a union to help protect their rights. That is EXACTLY what people like my grandaddy fought to make happen when they joined unions back when the usual response was to crack a few heads wide open with baseball bats wielded by common thugs on the orders of the owners of the manufacturing industries. Corporations and the lawyers and politicians that help support the artificial "personhood" rights of those corporations are scared to death that people will band together and realize just how much of a shafting they are actually getting and have been for a long time now. And God help you all when the sleeping giant of the American public finally wakes up and sees what has been done TO them in the name of "security and peace".
_________________________________________________
"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"
"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
It's a different world than 40+ years ago.
Yes, more working hours, negative savings rate, no job security, no pension, fading health insurance, social security at risk thanks to conservative groups' agenda being implemented by Bush, etc.
...
(Don't have time for all that in the middle.)
...
The first word was polluting. Corporations now how to minimize costs by externalizing them. They don't pay for the pollution they create. We do. And they invest in corrupting congress and EPA with things like industry-friendly policies and indemnity protection laws. You fancy lawyers know all about that kind of stuff.
Don't forget the new bankruptcy law written by the credit card industry that makes it much more difficult for the poor to survive a financial catastrophe such as an extended illness.
Of course they can always say a little prayer as they drive by a bank. Helping the prayerful poor to get out of poverty is surely almost as important as granting the prayerful rich help for their team of choice.
Visit us at
Wearybottom Associates
This is the first column of his that I've read, so I'm catching up. Anyone know who this guy is? How old is he?
My reason for asking is a bit emotional. Anyone who lived through or had close family who lived through the Depression should think twice before they criticize FDR's New Deal. In the Depression, hard-working people suddenly found themselves jobless or with no market for their wares. My grandmother had tales that would break your heart. Most of the men in her family had to go all the way to Florida to find work, but even that wasn't enough sometimes.
One story that stood out was a night when there was nothing to eat in the house. They ransacked every drawer and closet, finally finding a jar of old Christmas peppermints. That was dinner. And they were doing better than most people since they were a large family with few young children or elderly.
The New Deal gave the entire country a leg up. It put people to work, gave them back some pride.
Yes, there is abuse of today's system, but poverty is not always a choice. Most working people are just two bad months or one tragedy away from bankruptcy.
It seems to me, Dr. Pete Stevens, you are more to be pitied than chastised because by having the audacity to publish your brilliant opinion piece, you have publicly proven yourself to be a pathetically naïve person without any life knowledge. You seem to think everyone in America can with a little hard work, or "determination" as you put it, realize the American dream. Only a fool would make a statement like that.
Hey Pete! Wake up! Life gets in the way. Sometimes the hand you have been dealt is not all composed of aces, sometimes it's only deuces and treys.
How many nights, Pete, have you tried studying for your GED after a week of meager meals, emotional abuse from your alcohol-addicted parents, and a job detailing cars down at the local car wash?
Have you ever had a child with a learning disability?
How many years have you worked two or three jobs just to put a meal on the table and still found yourself only a few dollars above the poverty level?
How many times have you had to go to an emergency room because you didn't have any insurance and your child was seriously ill?
How many of your babies have died because you were a minority and the healthcare system in this country didn’t offer the same care others were getting?
How many years have you lived in a third-world country? How many times have you witnessed seeing your neighbors die of hunger and disease and political oppression? Have you ever seen a person shot in the head?
Have you ever been stopped by the cops because of your skin color?
The most important question of course is why not? Was it because of anything you did? I mean anything you personally achieved without any help from anyone? I mean what did you yourself ever do to climb to the lofty ranks you seem to think you abide in? What big obstacles have you overcome to get where you are?
As for your simple little formula representing why there isn't more upward movement out of the sweltering and awful hell that is poverty (A+B+C= X's life of luxury on the dole). That is not only laughable, it's cruel.
Yes, there are some people who really don't want to work, who have so little self-respect, so little hope, that they actually want to remain on welfare, a system which by the way does not supply a recipient with all they need to survive, thus creating a criminal class of people willing to defraud the hand that feeds them because they feel burned by the insulting lie that all they have to do is work a job and they will be able to take care of their families.
But who will watch their children if they do that? How will they be able to take care of their family if they're only being paid minimum wage? How will they be able to afford the high rents or the skyrocketing cost of health insurance?
Your belief Pete that none of these obstacles to success matters is what is most glaringly wrong with your arrogant opinion piece. After reading it carefully, I have only one thing to say--You're an idiot, Pete. That's all. Your assumptions don't warrant discussion because they are so patently naïve.
In your article you have chosen not just to demean X who is living in poverty, but also A B and C who care that their fellow human beings are suffering. So where does that leave you?
May I suggest Dr. Stevens that in my book you do not even merit a letter? You sir would only be qualified to be a number, and that number would be zero. In spite of your self-confidence and your success in the business world you have failed at the most important thing in the world--being a human being with feelings.
Personally after reading your opinion piece, I felt I would rather be a lazy person on the dole, someone who had some feelings left, who was really struggling against the odds, than to be someone like you.
"Right to work" is a euphemism for government colluding with corporations just to bust unions. Doesn't seem constitutional. If it were, why the bullshit wordplay?
So, which is worse CBT, those who are actually blind or, those who simply refuse to see?
Pete (Dr my ass) claims in effect that the poor aren't working. You say that industry moves into the neighborhoods where the poor live so as to have access to labor. How exactly can both of you be right? Or, which of you is blind and who is refusing to see?
I can appreciate that perhaps neither of you have significant experience with racial active and intentional discrimination. Your unfamiliarity with it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Neither of you has to stay blind to it and it's effects. You may not be able to experience it directly but, you can certainly learn about it. You could even learn about it's more insidious cousin, institutional racism but, first you have to choose to not be blind.
It must be wonderful to have always made the right decision and, to have always made the right non-decision. If you could just outline your decision making process from about age three on, you could do the poor and minority communities a world of good. See, as it turns out, sometimes one bad decision takes away all but bad and less bad options down the road. Since you and Pete have never made a bad decision, you are obviously the ones to show us the way. (BTW, there isn't any chance that you or Pete has made a bad decision that didn't ruin your lives because other White people and/or authority figures didn't believe that you were starting from a position of malintentions is there? Cause that would like, really undermine your arguments) Cause shouldn't the blind be leading those who can see all too damn well?
Why don't I just rewrite Pete's column for him and save the KNS some room on the page.
"Hey racists! It isn't your fault. Go home, guard your daughters and your stuff and thank Gawd that you are White.
CAFKIA
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It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
- William G. McAdoo
My next book is entitled, Horatio Alger Was a Pederast: The Confluence of Republican Ethics and Economics.
Don't ask about my last book.
When will people quit blaming everyone else for their mistakes and station in life?
If you want to get ahead in life work hard if that means 2 jobs so be it... if that means no cable TV or cell phone until you have a savings account so be it... I am tried of hearing how bad someone has it who will do nothing about it but b***h about it...
Who ever said life is easy is wrong!!! Grow up and get a job!
To really get ahead in America today it takes two working class parents each working at least two jobs just to survive in some areas. This creates kids without supervision. It deprives them of that warm secure feeling of being cared for, not to mention home cooked meals. If a kid goes bad today--becomes truant, hopeless or angry and violent we blame the parents. I know. I taught these kids. Many of them felt abandoned by parents who were always working and were always tired.
When both parents are working two jobs, as is the case with my own children, the repurcussions flow outward. My one daughter is a single parent office executive who works a part-time job doing customer service and another weekend job as a waitress. Not only is she exhausted, but she's just keeping up with her living expenses. She's very thrifty, but the rents and mortgages in the Northeast are simply out-if-sight now. And, what about my granddaughter a pre-teen who calls her mother several times a day just because "she misses her"? The father is no help. He's a total loser who avoids his kids as much as he can and has never had to pay much child support because he works for himself and just makes up his own financial statements. My daughter has a very strong work ethic, too strong I think for her own good. I really worry about her health because I see all this stress taking its toll, and I feel sad for my granddaughter.
My other daughter is a restaurant manager. She works her butt off. Her husband is a physical plant engineer, and he is on-call 24/7. These two hardly ever get to see one another any more. All they are doing is working, working, working. They do own a nice home, do manage to pay for the kids' college, and all the other necessities of life, but I feel their marriage suffers from too much working. Now that they're older they feel more tired and weary. They wish they had more time together. Work demands have made them practically strangers. Just drifting past one another on the way to their various shifts is not very romantic. Lucky for them they have a mother-in-law that has always been a free babysitter. Sometimes I worry they will never live long enough to retire.
Gee, Joe, I don't believe this nation was founded on the idea that its citizens all having to be drudges. There is such a thing as "quality of life". It's in our history--as in "the pursuit of happiness". Not an idle promise and not meant to be silly, it reflects the ideal America used to offer. Work, home, family, and time for all---more than just slaving away at some drudge job.
If you're willing for us to become a nation of peons that's fine, but I'm not. Why should the rest of the countries in the world show more compassion for their citizens' quality of life than we do? It's embarassing. Working two or three jobs is not the answer--sharing the wealth is the answer. And don't forget that old Jesus reminder--"What you do onto the least of these, you do unto me." I'm no Jesus freak but that dude sure had some wise words to admonish the ignorant masses.
Aw, come on, Joe. You're just trying to be difficult. How do you know there aren't people already who don't have cable TV and cell phones and already work 2 jobs and still can't get by? I'm pretty sure this happens all of the time in the US of A.
Just more of the same... both my parents worked long hard hours and I believe I turned out pretty damn good... My wife and I both work yet we are able to mange to get our kids to football practice and games swimming, tennis or what ever the activity is... people just have to learn to manage their time and money...
If your comment wasn't so off the mark, it might be funny. It's become an such an old cliche to blame everyone who isn't living the American dream for their plight. One that has been debunked over and over.
You'd make a great patrone in Mexico, you know. Down there the upper class has the same values you have. They talk about the lazy poor all the time in their air-conditioned villas. The plantation owners used the same language when talking about slaves.
Manage their time better? How can one manage the three hours a day left over after working two shifts to cavort as your fortunate family seems to be doing. How can you play tennis, taxi kids around, go to school events, and other fun things, anyway. Maybe, you're not working enough, Joe.
I suspect having enough time to have a quality life has little to do with your own superior good management skills. At least you have time. Of course as the country goes to hell in a handbasket, you will also someday feel the pinch. This diminishment of quality started at the very bottom, moved up to the lower working classes and is now hitting the middle class. Unless you are a multi-millionaire your future is as shakey as anyone else's.
When things start to get impossible for you and you're family, I hope no one will hear you "whining".
They're still trying to play a shell game with their paper, too.
Being an existing Countrywide customer* I am deluged with beg letters from them. Convert from your existing fixed rate loan and save money!** Go for a cash-out refinance!*** And now, the latest: Sign up for Countrywide Car Insurance!****
But back to what CBT was saying: Whatever happened to the banks being the gatekeeper between those irresponsible homebuyers and the supposedly responsible mortgage holder? Answer: They assumed that the market was going to keep expanding, and even if there were a few defaults, the banks could make money flipping those properties in foreclosure. We're not talking about a few bad apples here. We're talking about an across-the-board institutional virus. Easy credit. HELOCs and second mortgages. Banks were hedging securities against their mortgage portfolios, and now they can't pay each other. Now you have a whole lot of some asset which is of indeterminate worth, mainly because nobody is willing to buy it. That's why there's a liquidity crisis today.
* I'd fire them if I could find a better offer. Half a point on a 30-year fixed ain't much better.
** ...by converting to a 5-1 ARM from said 30-year fixed. Right. When's the next turnip truck coming by?
*** Your mortgate payment may go up 150%. Says so in the fine print.
**** The only car wreck I see here is this new business model.
____________________________
"Respect mah authoritah!" - Fred Cartman Thompson
I haven't had much time to respond, but I'll make a few brief comments. It's always funny when I get accused of being elitist (or making elitist comments, which to me is basically the same thing). I grew up with what would be best described as a redneck, blue collar pedigree. No family business to join or fall back on. No 'name' to get a job or station in life.
In my younger days, I grew up on a farm. For most of my life, I had a single, no college degree mother. It was a struggle. But, I learned early the key was work and education. I worked at the Y before age 15 and from 15 on always had a paying job, year-round (McDonalds for 3 years, delivering furniture and working in a law firm as a runner in college). Spring breaks didn't mean vacation, it meant I could work 40 hours. I worked my way through college and law school. I've been a fairly successful lawyer for the past 15 years. I'm also very active in the Knoxville community, politically and with charitable groups.
These were decisions any person can make. I've been fortunate, but it's not something others can't accomplish. That's why I have a hard time with people who want to blame everything and everyone else, from the evil banks, to the government, to being in a certain minority group, to being poor growing up. Some things in my life made it more difficult. But, it didn't mean failure.
Yes, there are problems and traps poor people can fall into. I hope the government passes laws and establishes procedures to help prevent those practices. But, having kids when you can't afford them, buying more than you can afford and other stupid decisions are the reason some, and note I said 'some', people are poor. I empathize with those who for medical and other reasons beyond their control wind up in dire circumstances. The government should (and does) help those folks. But, there also needs to be some personal accountability.
For those critics of this ideology, would you agree that some number of poor people are poor as a result of bad decisions? Decisions have consequences.
And BTW, Steve, all my decisions haven't been good. There are lots of things I would change. But, a fairly good work ethic and goals helped me along the way.
"In my younger days, I grew up on a farm. For most of my life, I had a single, no college degree mother. It was a struggle. But, I learned early the key was work and education. I worked at the Y before age 15 and from 15 on always had a paying job, year-round (McDonalds for 3 years, delivering furniture and working in a law firm as a runner in college). Spring breaks didn't mean vacation, it meant I could work 40 hours. I worked my way through college and law school. I've been a fairly successful lawyer for the past 15 years. I'm also very active in the Knoxville community, politically and with charitable groups."
And Horatio Alger told stories too. Dime a piece.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Yes, there are problems and traps poor people can fall into. I hope the government passes laws and establishes procedures to help prevent those practices.
The whole point I've been trying to make is that the government has been doing exactly the opposite. The loan-shark policies of credit card companies were enabled by Congress. Our corporatist government has been working steadily for decades to make the slope into debt slavery steeper and more slippery, to erode the value of employment and to widen the gap between the executive/investor class and the rest of society.
I believe that you mean what you say in the quoted passage above. I also believe you try to help people in your personal life. Your political party (and the other one is not much better) is working against you, however, particularly at the federal level. I'm not sure why you can't recognize the contradiction between ideals and actions, but cheap pablum like Dr. Pete dishes up can be distracting. Republicans ideals have become largely irrelevant to what Bush and the Congress are actually doing, and it seems like distraction is all Republicans hope to achieve these days.
This in a nutshell is where your thinking slides off the track of reality and crashes against innocent people who do not deserve to be condemned. Not to take away from yur humble origins, nor to discount the fact you probably did work hard to get where you are today and should feel proud, but the "decisions" you made were made possible by circumstances that allowed you to grow up healthy with a solid sense of ego and determinaton, circumstances not chosen by you, but brought to you as a stroke of luck.
How different would your life have been if your parents had been abused and in that cycle of violence so many children are trapped in, they called you derogatory names every day? What if you were told your father was a drug addict who said he never ever wanted to see your face? What if you grew up feeling like you were nothing and never going to be anything? How easy would be for you then to decide which college you would choose to attend?
How clear would your thinking have been in law school if you had an undiagnosed learning problem because your school district was broke and you only got textbooks after they were handed down from better schools? What decision would have saved you from that fate?
What if the only home your parents could afford was in a city full of violence? What decision then could have prevented you from having to listen all night to the people next door fighting or the sound of sirens and gunshots?
The idea that any adult person with an education could somehow support throwing billions of dollars away on a war or on contracts with corrupt corporations who no one holds "responsible", rather than help an American kid grow up healthy, nurtured, and educated is simply beyond me.
There are lazy people in the world. They come in all colors and from all classes. Some are even lawyers who faun over clients they know are guilty just to make more money. Some are millionaires. Some are preachers and doctors. These groups always seem to be given a slap on the wrist when it comes to having to be "responsible" or to have made good decisions. Corporations get write-offs, tax breaks, and avenues of bankruptcy. These are handouts to the rich.
Corporate welfare in this country is growing so fast it is impossible to track it. Compared to that, spending a few dollars on insuring all our citizens are fed, as healthy as possible, and enabled to be good parents seems like nothing.
It's self-destructive to think we are all seperate. Each of us is a potential contributor to the whole. Sometimes we need to help each other and sometimes we need help.
There's no shame in that. Unless you happen to be a conservative Republican.
Thanks, Carole. Very well said.
That's easy for you to say. People are different. Many people have fewer options than you did, however humble your background. And many people are ignorant, often no fault of their own, and they are subject to bad short-sighted decisions, such as self destructive behaviors like drug use whether tobacco or harder drugs, to falling victim to mass appeals in an orgy of overcapitalism. Not just of the Countrywide sort, but of the buy now and live for the moment sort because every ad on TeeVee tells them that that is what every good American is doing to be normal and to achieve happiness.
The government is even telling people to buy lottery tickets because they might get rich. Many people see so little reason to hope that things are going to improve for them, that lottery tickets become a valid option and then it's a short step until they're compulsive gamblers who buy lottery tickets instead of feeding their family.
So what are we going to do about it? Ignore them so that they'll wise up on their own? Leave it to the church? Hope that our good corporate citizens will step up?
Why are brainwashed Republicans afraid to admit the only appropriate institution to deal with this is government? If we gets it wrong, then we've got to try harder. Letting up is not an innovative strategy, though it's obviously the GOP's.
And how are the middle class doing in Bush's "ownership society"? Now that we have the highest rate of home foreclosures since the Great Depression, MSNBC has a week long series on this.
Compared to the mid-70's, it ain't looking so rosy.
And Horatio Alger told stories too. Dime a piece.
And some people spend their time teaching instead of doing, drinking fine wine, having au pairs take care of their children and lamenting about the plight of the poor.
Nice.
I like the sleight of hand that lets you introduce the "Those who can, do; Those who can't teach" bromide.
Au pair: Cheaper than regular day care. Price it out. Oh, you don't have to, you are a DINK.
Wine: There are worse, more expensive hobbies. Golf comes to mind. If you'd like some recommendations, I'll give them out. I do not buy wine that costs more than $15 a bottle.
Lamenting about the plight of the poor: WWJD?
I also run my own business with my wife (Doing very nicely, thank you). The current product we are developing does more to protect people than the intellectually bereft platitudes of the likes of you. Don't you have a few contracts to draw up or a couple of corporate bankruptcies to shepherd? Imagine a lawyer scolding the poor for being parasites.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
But I do it because I can, not because I can't do. I see what I do as a calling, helping those who the school systems have failed -- or who simply failed the school system, sometimes it's hard to tell which is which. But I am far from doing it "instead of doing." And, I would venture that anyone who believes that those who can't teach, needs to follow a teacher around for a couple of days. It's probably the hardest job that I've ever had. and that includes a wide variety of part-time jobs during college and grad school and jobs that appeared mroe glamourous than they were.
Perhaps you should reconsider before you generalize.
Pam Strickland
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut
"Doctor" Pete's prescriptions are as old as the debunked agitprop about the Welfare Queen. The guy is a serial plagiarist. He should pay royalties to the RNC blast fax.
Class warfare! Class warfare! Class warfare!
(This is the same self-serving baloney that has Goopers in spasms about haircuts and the square footage of a certain estate on Lynnwood Drive in Belle Meade. IOKIYAR.)
____________________________
"Respect mah authoritah!" - Fred Cartman Thompson
"The guy is a serial plagiarist".
That was my first impression. These are Thomas Sowell columns without the big words.
parents had been abused
cycle of violence so many children are trapped in
undiagnosed learning problem
father was a drug addict
Are these the rules or the exceptions? There are also stories of those who lift themselves out of their circumstances and make a better life for themselves than the one they were born into. Are these circumstances a forever excuse for anything and everything? I dropped out of school because I have no father and mom's working all the time. I robbed the convenience store because my mother was a drug addict. I sold drugs because I chose not to go to college and I ain't gonna flip burgers for $7 an hour. I shot a man because, well, there's violence everywhere in my neighborhood, I can't escape it. Where do we draw the line of personal responsibility?
I understand there are those who encounter and suffer circumstances beyond their control. I want to help those folks all we can. But, how do we seperate that wheat from the chaff of those who make poor choices expecting to be bailed out, are lazy and/or abuse the welfare system? Welfare has created a society that is, what, now entering it's fourth generation? There need to be consequences for some to provide better support for those truly in need. Those truly in need should not be painted with the same, broad brush of laziness and irresponsibility.
"Please, sir... may I have more?"
____________________________
"Respect mah authoritah!" - Fred Cartman Thompson
how do we seperate that wheat from the chaff of those who make poor choices expecting to be bailed out
The wheat is separated from the fucking chaff, and it's not just the chaff getting tossed aside. Furthermore, the bailout you whimper over is miniscule. People who make poor choices wind up in mobile-home parks and public housing, which differ from prison by having no walls, no free meals, shitty medical care and no cable TV.
Put all the fuck ups in prison where they will cost six times as much to bail out, just like you've put all the psychos in mercenary armies costing ten times the salaries and a hundred times the simmering vengeance our meddlesome, viscious foreign policy buys us. Ruin everything with your fixation on the fractional penny of taxes you think you can save with a little more neglect for the desperate.
That's the trouble with Republicans: they identify a problem and propose solutions far worse. Republicans are a convenient herd of gullibility and incapacity that needs a ruthless cull in voting booths nationwide.
Democrats are the pansies they schedule for homecoming.
Let us not forget the school-to-prison pipeline set up by failed programs like "Zero Tolerance" and "No Child Left Behind." The money that dried up for housing subsidies in the 1980s didn't go back into Joe American's hands. It was merely shuffled to the folks who bring you supermax prisons, three-strikes laws and 20-year sentences for being in the car when the 1/4 gram of coke was found on your brother who happens to be black like you.
"That's the trouble with Republicans: they identify a problem and propose solutions far worse. Republicans are a convenient herd of gullibility and incapacity that needs a ruthless cull in voting booths nationwide.
Democrats are the pansies they schedule for homecoming."
My new tag line.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
parents had been abused
cycle of violence so many children are trapped in
undiagnosed learning problem
father was a drug addict
Are these the rules or the exceptions?
CBT there is a lot of this out there. I'd be inclined to say it is the rule rather than the exception.
Someone brought up Horatio Alger stories. My understanding is that these stories all contain a mentor that was impressed by the spark of the disadvantaged youngster. It was the mentor that made the difference as much as the kid.
Nowadays most of the business owners are living far away from the kids that need help. There's not the kind of interaction that existed in small town America.
____________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs
Please may I have more govm't cheese... to go with your damn "whine"..
One is pathetic, the other brings about change.
If there ever was a time for the citizens of this country to roar in outrage, now is the time.
Make your voice heard! It's your Constitutional right.
It costs a lot less to extend a hand to the poor-- to help them find a way to make a living then it does to pay to support them in prison.
It also gives hope when someone cares. And, hope means a lot.
Find me how many poor people that live within the family, such as Husband and Wife, that has graduated high school, stays employed and do not have children out of marriage. Fact is you really can not find that many. The ones that may fall under the poverty line tend to do fairly well and seem to get by nicely with all things considered.
It's a fact? Please provide evidence to support your claim. In an argument, when someone makes a proposition that they assert as truth, the person who proposes such is required to provide evidence. Note: an anecdote is not evidence.*
*Many anecdotes gathered together formally are. That's called "data."
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Our prisons are full of those who come from the poverty ranks. It might have been more economical to help them before they turned to crime.
Link...
"Tend to?" "Seem to?"
Weasel words.
____________________________
"Respect mah authoritah!" - Fred Cartman Thompson
"Tend to?" "Seem
Submitted by Andy Axel on Fri, 2007/10/19 - 8:34am.
"Tend to?" "Seem to?"
Weasel words.
What, you got something against Weasels???
Yet the fact remains, I have yet too find that many impoverished people that are in a committed relationship such as marriage, stood in school and graduated and stays employed. I'm not saying they have a wonderful life and can take two great vacations a year like going to Sedona AZ which I simply love, and then one spouse go running off to Paris once a year searching for that, whatever one would search Paris for? Really never like France that much myself, think Amsterdam or Vienna makes for a better vacation personally.
Oh, yea staying out of Prison really helps to stay off the roles of poverty too!
Thank you for your irrelevant and obvious contribution to the discussion, InsuranceAgent.
Looks like the Coach finally got a new IP address off his Comcast account and sobered up long enough to make a new account to me. But he's just joking and would buy you a beer.*
*AKA The Les Jones gambit or the "Dude, I'm just fucking with you" strategy of internet discussion.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Your misuse of tenses, lack of proper punctuation, run-on sentences and other basic grammar errors makes me wonder just how far you went in school. People in glass houses...you know...
(or should I say mangling) of the English language, I daresay you didn't "stood in school" long enough. Even if you did manage to graduate, your English teacher probably GAVE you a passing grade just so you wouldn't be in her class again to disrupt the lessons with snoring and to damage the finish on the desks with drool.
By the way, you have yet to cite one real, documented or peer-reviewed study that impoverished people do NOT stay in committed relationships. For that matter, just who made you the arbiter of what constitutes an "acceptable" committed relationship anyway? Marriage is not the ONLY way to be in a committed and loving relationship.
In a "Republican world", poverty does have a "role". It's to make the rich feel better about themselves while they sit around and talk about how the poor wouldn't be poor if they weren't just so darned lazy. Therefore, Republicans will never do ANYTHING to help reduce poverty in this country or anywhere else. And that includes paying people an honest day's wage for an honest day's work.
_________________________________________________
"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"
"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali
It's ridiculous and very ignorant to think poor people don't have long and loyal marriages, that all their children are born out of wedlock, and that none of them have graduated from high school. What planet do live on anyway? Certainly some of the the things you mention do probably statistically run higher in poorer communities, but it's always dumb to lump "them" all together. Besides who is keeping track of all the white, college educated middle-income or high-income people who fail to stay above the poverty-line these days? No one.
I smell a troll.
Visit us at
Wearybottom Associates
I suppose, the only reason I'm here was the fact that some information about health coverage was so faulty I couldn't help myself from jumping in. Yet I understand this is a liberal site, and understanding most liberals can not comprehend that someone may not agree with their opinion, I can see myself being block from this site in the near future.
Certain facts that are hard to overcome in the long haul, poverty is poverty, you can not end it. Government will never end it, in fact most answers they offer tend to only bring everyone down to a lower level reducing the overall stigma related to poverty. Or a simply fact, Europe's Middle Class lives much like our Poverty Class. Lived in Europe for some 5 years, 3 years in the US Army and 2 more years as a citizen with Eurail Pass (most of the time) in hand, boy was that fun! Fact is though, Socialist Economics simply doesn't work in the long haul. As we are today seeing a more conservative (okay europes conservative is a american liberal) trend in their politics and in fact Belgium (? might be another nation?) is now playing with the idea of private health insurance as a way to reduce medical cost!
This is a gasser. Stick around. Not only are you full of shit, you are a liar and funny.
"Eurail Pass/Citizen" -- 1. How old were you? 2. European citizens are not permitted to hold a Eurail pass.
"Europe's Middle Class lives much like our Poverty Class."
Europe's middle class lives better than American than the American middle class. Longer lives, greater productivity and generally are more happy with their lives than Americans. See Jeremy Rifkin's book "The European Dream."
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
This is a gasser. Stick
Submitted by metulj on Fri, 2007/10/19 - 2:26pm.
"Eurail Pass/Citizen" -- 1. How old were you? 2. European citizens are not permitted to hold a Eurail pass.
"Europe's Middle Class lives much like our Poverty Class."
Europe's middle class lives better than American than the American middle class. Longer lives, greater productivity and generally are more happy with their lives than Americans. See Jeremy Rifkin's book "The European Dream."
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Never said I was a European, yet when I left the military (that would be the US Army) I had recieved a European Out. With Eurail Pass in hand and brought several others over a two year stay. This was in '82 when I first left the military.
I suppose you should go over there and expierence it for yourself, and not trust the words written that you obviously don't have first hand knowledge about. The European Dream is just that, a dream that is or seemingly falling apart, and never was realized. I will not even touch Productivity of the American Worker Vs that of the European Worker.
Yet like I said, most liberals or should I say "New Age Liberal" have little ability to think for themselves. As Pete pointed out, it is all about group think. If someone comes around and suggest anything different they are immediately a liar or full of shit, normal attitude for todays liberal. Todays liberalism isn't the liberalism of 19th Century as some would suggest, and yes Pete was correct when he suggested a new age of liberals were born with FDR and let us not forget President Johnson.
Socialist Economics simply doesn't work in the long haul
If your login name is accurate, you work in an industry built on socialist principles.
I lost my Wingnut decoder ring.
From what I can tell without it, IA says s/he lived in Europe and yet has to speculate as to whether Belgium is, in fact, a country.
As the kids say, WTF?
Submitted by Nelle on Fri, 2007/10/19 - 5:54pm.
I lost my Wingnut decoder ring.
From what I can tell without it, IA says s/he lived in Europe and yet has to speculate as to whether Belgium is, in fact, a country.
As the kids say, WTF?
I was referring to the Nation that decided last year or the year before to expierment with the idea of Private Health Insurance. I think I made that clear, but nice try. Wow, you'll are so predictable!
That's the Country where They speak a Language in which everyday Nouns are capitalized.
Hint: it's not English.
Lessee, looking through my troll diagnostic criteria ...
Fact-free postings? Check.
Highly questionable grammar, spelling, usage? Check.
Persecution complex? Hells yeah.
Diagnosis: troll.
Quite frankly, InsuranceAgent, after seeing your obvious bullshit about other subjects, I for one would never become one of your clients.
But then I place most insurance agents in the same cubbyhole with televangelists, used car salesmen, and other parasites.
Visit us at
Wearybottom Associates
Submitted by redmondkr on Fri, 2007/10/19 - 3:01pm.
Quite frankly, InsuranceAgent, after seeing your obvious bullshit about other subjects, I for one would never become one of your clients.
But then I place most insurance agents in the same cubbyhole with televangelists, used car salesmen, and other parasites.
Frankly speaking, you likely have no insurance and expect people such as myself to pay for your wants and needs out my pocket via taxation instead of taking care of it yourself. We call that, the state of, "Freeloader". I seriously doubt I would want you as a client, because to be a client you would have to have the mentallity of wanting to take care of yourself. That is where my clients benefits, I can develope a plan that covers the greatest benefits with the best companies for the best price, if that is more or less then what they are now spending is not significant, if it is then they are not a client of mine.
As Pete's main point, person A and B wants to enslave person C to take care of person X. I didn't find his article mean spirited, if you did because it isn't what you believe then who is truly meanspirited? I would suggest it is the one that is claiming that the other is meanspirited (or they are offended by the other persons word) because their words don't support their beliefs.
Yet one of the best sayings that most liberals should learn, "Get Over Yourselves!". You have to understand, others do not have to agree with you, that doesn't make them meanspirited.
The article WAS mean-spirited.
If poverty is defined by money (like 3x the annual food budget?), I guess the "government" could simply redistribute tax money. Would that solve the problems of real poverty?
If poverty is the result of circumstances beyond one's control, "government" could provide a safety net, albeit expensive and probably with unintended consequences.
If poverty is temporary, I would hope the "government" would not provide a disincentive to work (in the holistic sense of the word) through hardships.
If poverty is generational, learned behavior, wouldn't one-on-one mentoring be more effective that government money and programs?
I have worked with low-income families for 15 years, and some outcomes were so predictable, it got discouraging. The mix of teenage mothers, absent fathers, and easy access to credit made it difficult to even qualify for affordable housing programs.
It was heartbreaking to see the choices some folks made when they would have had the support and help of dedicated staff and volunteers to achieve their goals. MOST families were able to achieve stability and the success they desired, but our work was almost 100% with the 20% who did not adopt enough behaviors of success to be homeowners.
So, the issue of poverty is complex and, to my libertarian mind, not a basic function of government to fix, but rather the duty of citizens to care for each other with justice, mercy, and humility.
Submitted by Bird_dog on Fri, 2007/10/19 - 11:47pm.
The article WAS mean-spirited.
If poverty is defined by money (like 3x the annual food budget?), I guess the "government" could simply redistribute tax money. Would that solve the problems of real poverty?
If poverty is the result of circumstances beyond one's control, "government" could provide a safety net, albeit expensive and probably with unintended consequences.
If poverty is temporary, I would hope the "government" would not provide a disincentive to work (in the holistic sense of the word) through hardships.
If poverty is generational, learned behavior, wouldn't one-on-one mentoring be more effective that government money and programs?
I have worked with low-income families for 15 years, and some outcomes were so predictable, it got discouraging. The mix of teenage mothers, absent fathers, and easy access to credit made it difficult to even qualify for affordable housing programs.
It was heartbreaking to see the choices some folks made when they would have had the support and help of dedicated staff and volunteers to achieve their goals. MOST families were able to achieve stability and the success they desired, but our work was almost 100% with the 20% who did not adopt enough behaviors of success to be homeowners.
So, the issue of poverty is complex and, to my libertarian mind, not a basic function of government to fix, but rather the duty of citizens to care for each other with justice, mercy, and humility.
Well said!
You said, "It was heartbreaking to see the choices some folks made when they would have had the support and help of dedicated staff and volunteers to achieve their goals. MOST families were able to achieve stability and the success they desired, but our work was almost 100% with the 20% who did not adopt enough behaviors of success to be homeowners."
I know that feeling well, but think of all the positive results you achieved with MOST of the families you worked with. That's what kept me going when I was working with the poverty sector. Hey, you can't make everyone's life perfect, but the vast majority of clients I've known did move on to self-sufficiency again. Not lavish lifestyles, but they had their dignity back and were rewarded when they learned from programs meant to help (these were usually usually funded by the government.
But I do disagree with this statement you made:
"So, the issue of poverty is complex and, to my libertarian mind, not a basic function of government to fix, but rather the duty of citizens to ."
I agree it is complex, way beyond most peoples' (including my own) real comprehension, but citizens are the government and our "duty" is to pay taxes to "care for each other with justice, mercy, and humility" when that's necessary.
It's idealistic to think individuals alone can solve poverty. Just look at the vile racism and bigotted attitude expressed here by people like good old Insurance Agent. God forbid an individual like that with his warped mentality should be in charge of some poverty-ridden person's rehabilitation. It's obvious he has no respect for poor people--so how could he possibly help them? People who know nothing about poverty assume attitudes and parrot politically driven garbage when they lack knowledge. They don't have the mental means or compassion enough to be of much help.
Yes, you're right. WE absolutely DO need also individuals to help eradicate poverty. The government alone can't do it. Each of us should be putting out shoulder to the wheel to know more about it, serve directly those in need, volunteer to help organizations who make a difference, and we should willingly offer some of our tax money to uplift our fellow citizens. All of those things. But how many people actually are doing this?
Not enough. So the government either steps in or people remain poor and cause us serious problems and drain or pockets in other ways. Taxes also go for prisons. I'd rather the government spent my dime helping someone before they are incarcerated.
I'm afraid some people are so turned off to the government, they can't imagine it doing any good. It does do good. It has done good. Individuals alone do very little really. So we need the government. As cumbersome and corrupt and sometimes insane as it is--it's still better than relying on individuals.
"libertarian mind"
A paradox...
____________________________
"Respect mah authoritah!" - Fred Cartman Thompson
maybe not
Frankly speaking, you likely have no insurance and expect people such as myself to pay for your wants and needs out my pocket via taxation instead of taking care of it yourself. We call that, the state of, "Freeloader". I seriously doubt I would want you as a client, because to be a client you would have to have the mentallity of wanting to take care of yourself. That is where my clients benefits, I can develope a plan that covers the greatest benefits with the best companies for the best price, if that is more or less then what they are now spending is not significant, if it is then they are not a client of mine.
Wrong again, my dear. I have the decent insurance that comes with retirement from a government contractor. I guess, in a way, I am a burden to you and yours since I was on the federal payroll for over 34 years and am presently sucking up a monthly pension check from your taxes.
How sweet it is! For that Gino and I do thank you.
Please keep paying those taxes and get you a free copy of Firefox, it has a very good spell checker that gives the more erudite troll little red lines under such gaffs as mentallity and develope.
It can't help you with such Boratic language as:
That is where my clients benefits, I can develope a plan that covers the greatest benefits with the best companies for the best price, if that is more or less then what they are now spending is not significant, if it is then they are not a client of mine..
You may want to spend a bit of time here between clients to help you with that aspect of your communication skills.
Of course that assumes that you actually recognize a need for improvement. Who knows, maybe your clients can actually understand this language. Have you ever considered running for office in Knox County? There should be some openings soon.
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Wearybottom Associates
Well, I'm glad you appreciate my contributions to your lifestyle, it is easy to be a liberal when all is given by others and not yourself.
The language barrier, I actually think how I'm going to say something with a client. I really don't worry about it in arenas as in internet forums, not to mention insomia. Not like I'm here actually expecting to drum up business, I might of been born at night but, it wasn't last night!
In fact, I am thinking about coming up with a survey, it will attempt to qualify by political leanings. Conservative equals good shot, Moderate is a toss up, Liberal might as well say goodbye! Then again, I have that big "W" sticker in the rear window, just have to ask "Hey you like that sticker?".
So let me get this straight about you, in Pete's analogy you have A and B demanding C to pay for X. Now X is the parasite but you are A, B and C, so one can say you're not just a parasite but a demanding parasite! Man, what a life you have!
Dr. Pete's math is as worthless as his words. The real equation is A,B,C and X democratically agree that A,B and C will provide subsistence support for X, should it be needed. Then when C doesn't get his way, he starts whining in a racist and elitist way that makes everyone wish he'd just shut up or die.
Someone with a W sticker on their vehicle has no right to whine about being made to pay for anything. There are thousands of American soldiers paying for your idiocy with their lives, and every American will be paying for it for at least a generation to come. You actually have the audacity to call someone who served our country making the nukes we used to stare down the Soviets "a demanding parasite"! You should consider yourself lucky if the decent people in this country don't democratically agree to seize the assets of anyone still sporting a W sticker and give them a cab-fare voucher to the homeless shelter.
I didn't read Pete's analogy or his article. I spent most of my day transferring ancient Laserdiscs to iPod video.
Your posts caught my eye because they reminded me of another one, the one with a big SUV that got better gas mileage than her hybrid. Then there is this from Factchecker who was being kind to a visitor.
I would hardly call my retirement a gift even if your taxes do pay for it. I spent several years slaving over a hot gaseous diffusion plant to keep a bunch of soft wingnutters like you safe from the commies and to earn that pension so you got your money's worth.
For the safe continuance of your lifestyle I have even ingested minute quantities of UF-6 gas in the days when proper respiratory protection was nonexistent so you don't really want to sell me insurance anyway. The old Army assault mask I wore then was actually a great deal better than the dust masks Mr. Bush's EPA administrator deemed adequate for the cleanup at the World Trade Center.
One of the facilities where I worked is also infamous for its abundance of liquid and gaseous mercury and you know where they got the old saying about being mad as a hatter.
Come to think of it, I guess you don't. Your posts suggest that you're a history major of the same caliber as your hero , so you'll just have to Google that one.
PS: Some of my past positions have required the submission of official reports from time to time so I have developed a proficiency for bullshit that can perhaps equal or possibly even exceed yours.
Andy, Steve, Randy, Toby, Rikki, CAFKIA, and Factchecker are adept at seeing beyond this veil. Hornback remains silently buffooned.
PPS: Do consider a post in Knox County Government. You and Lumpy and Scoobie could take us where we have never been before.
Visit us at
Wearybottom Associates
Thanks, KR. I was just going to type about how working for 34 years to earn a pension and insurance in a day when employers were loyal to employees and employees were loyal to their employers and everybody kept their promises is not "freeloading" except in the wingnut world.
My mom is a freeloader because her company put its pension in the hands of a hedge fund that bet the wrong way one microsecond on some frankenstein security and lost half the fund's value. NDAs and secrecy agreements keep it out of the press.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Thank for me too, KR and the rest. I hadn't read this thread when I commented about our new insurance salesman on the Gore thread. We've got another live one. Looks like people will soon be dusting off their cookbooks!
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