Ah, but Texas (#6) barely squeaked a win (35-32) past unranked UCF.

Chavis will take the fall. Cutcliffe is so one-dimensional as an offensive coordinator that he's has a physics paradox named after him

I know that the 3rd turnover was irrelevant, but you can stick Ainge with that red-zone INT - and, I would add, creating a fumble* returned for a touchdown. That's basically +14 (for the Gators defense) right there.

And did I hear that the Vols offense possessed the ball for all of :27 in the 3rd??? Keerist. I know that it's common wisdom that defense wins ballgames, but c'mon already.

* The reason he backhanded that ball into the RB's breadbasket was that he switched to his uninjured hand. He is no Steve DeBerg. It was a bad decision to let him play, although in fairness it was the UT pass defense that really lost that game. UF had something like seven plays >40yd.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

He is no Steve DeBerg.

DeBerg was a journeyman QB, who played for the KC Chiefs with a cast and pin sticking out of his throwing hand during the 1990 playoffs.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

Similar to the Cal loss. Lack of defense, poor special teams play. But, Florida's a better team. Of well, we had several friends over, some good food and cheered on the Vols as best we could. I was in Gainesville two years ago. I'm kinda glad we didn't make the trip this year. But, Tuscaloosa, Starkville and Lexington await. The Vols need to get better.

Heck of a game for Alabama and Kentucky tonight. Particularly so for the Wildcats. First win over a top 10 team in 30 years. But, was Louisville really the ninth best team in the country? Maybe not. But, they are good.

Remember DeBerg, but not his cast and pin. Had a flurry of success at the end of his career when he was approaching 40. I was somehow reminded of the Vandy game, around '80 maybe, when Steve Alatorre took a snap in the end zone and slipped, so he instinctively put his hand down to break his fall. But it was the hand that held the ball. I'm sure CBT was closer than I was and remembers that play better than me. Maybe he can fill in the details.

We were out and about during parts of the game. Wow, what a ghost town! K-pike through Sequoia Hills was as if it were 6 A.M. The Shrimp Dock had one other customer while I was there. Usually it's very busy.

When many of these businesses depend on Saturday sales, how do they make it when several Saturdays per year are like this? I guess they're eager to do their part to help the Vols, survival be damned. Go Vols!

Grocery stores do a bangup business on game day. We were at Kroger a couple of hours before game time and it was pretty busy, like right before a snowstorm, except people were buying party food and beer. The cashier said they get slammed every UT game day.

This far into the season, East Tennessee State is still undefeated in football.

Too bad the Kroger Co. doesn't depend on Saturday sales. We also were on Mkt Sqr mall last Friday night (the 7th), and the next night while there was a night game. Friday night was the typical very busy night. Saturday, of course, dead.

We ate at Oodles and there was only one other table. It closed by 10 o'clock, before the game was over. Tomato Head and the rest of the businesses were obviously without paying customers during this period too.

But I'm sure Roddy did well with Coca-Cola sales, as did beer distributors, Pilot Oil & Sundries Corp., package stores, the party foods section of Sam's, etc. There is that.

From Randy's "update" link -

As someone once said, "Everything rises or falls on leadership."

It's also said that "a fish rots from the head."

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

The Arkansas State Indians, who come to Neyland on Saturday, nearly beat Texas at Austin to open the season, losing 21-13. They pretty much whipped SMU in their home opener last night, amassing 516 yards of offense.

I'm not saying they'll win, but they could scare UT. Next week is when you find out if the players have given up on the season or not.

This has been a useful sports thread so far.

So far we have learned that UT game day is a good day to play golf. Thanks for the tip, I hadn't thought of that. We have also learned that it's a good day for getting a table at restaurants (other than sports bars, we presume). Thanks for that tip, too.

We have also learned that it may not be the best day for grocery shopping, except at the Shrimp Dock. (Actually, any day is a good day to shop at the Shrimp Dock.)

I purchased 4 pounds of gator meat this week from The Shrimp Dock. We just breaked and deep fried 2 pounds. It turned out ok. Gator is too tough for me. The other 2 pounds we took a conch fritter recipe and substituted the gator. I think these turned out real well.

Usually at the Shrimp Dock I just ask for their advice on how to fix it. They haven't steered me wrong yet.

OK, I haven't been to a football game of any kind since Tennessee-Alabama 1979. It rained the entire game and Tennessee lost. There wasn't even any halftime because of the rain. I figured I didn't like it that much anyway, so why go.

When I moved back to Knoxville three years ago, I decided to come downtown and drive all the way down Cumberland and Kingston Pike so I could see what had happened while I had been ignoring it. When I got to James Agee Street, I was thrilled beyond words. But I was perplexed, when I looked to the left to see "Philip Fulmer Way." I thought: "What did he write?" It was August, so it only took me a few days of watching the local news and reading the newspaper to figure out he was The Coach. But he was still alive? Seemed odd to have a street named after him.

A few days later, I was at my uncle's office, and was telling on myself. When I got to "what did he write" my uncle pivoted away from the copy machine to state loudly: The playbook, the most important book of all."

I haven't had the guts to talk to him since yesterday. But I do know that a few weeks ago he was trying to get better basketball season tickets while simultaneously trying to find folks who would take his football tickets.

Pam Strickland

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." ~Kurt Vonnegut

Maryville College won to go 3-0 for the first time since 1981. And it was a doozy, with MC getting the tying TD with 28 seconds left, and then punching in the winning TD in overtime. I was standing about 10 yards away from the winning touchdown behind the end zone. D3 football is good fun. Oh, and the Huntingdon College team had a kick-ass marching band. If you want to watch football played by guys who love the game and don't delude themselves into thinking they're going pro, watch a D3 game.

Elrod is right about there being lots of football beyond UT. Carson-Newman is also one of the best programs at it's level in the nation. C-N knocked off higher division UT-Chattanooga earlier this year. Jefferson City is only a half hour or so drive away. Tusculum apparently has a good program. High school football on Friday nights is a community event.

I would rather Fulmer turned this around than get fired or leave. That being said, one name I haven't heard suggested and wonder why is Terry Bowden.

All the heavy hitters at UT need to do is call Bobby Lowder down near the 'loveliest village on the plains' and they'll get an ear full of why they don't want T. Bowden. I don't know how 'dirty' he is, but he created a stink he's yet to wash off.

Fulmer may have told the truth on Bama, but Spurrier, Arkansas and other coaches and schools were right there with him. Bama was flaunting it. Paying high school coaches 6 figures if they could deliver 18 year old star prospects. Other schools had enough. But, Bama fans and Fulmer detractors don't want to talk about what Bama did wrong. They want to talk about Fulmer's role.

So, Toby, what's the glaring problem over at Neyland-Thompson that Fulmer should be worried about?

A terrible coach? Hmm, one of highest winning percentages in the country and plays in the SEC East. And generally plays one of the most difficult schedules in the country.

Pressure? From who in the UTAD? Carmen? Coaches? Who?

But LOTS of people (literally--parking lots full) enjoy the tailgate parties, the drinking, the rivalries! So the program has to be beneficial to the area overall, right?? Otherwise you're just a whiner.

Fulmer's winning percentage is .762 overall which is 8th among active coaches. Obviously that doesn't guarantee a top 10 team (or a top 100 rated defense).

First 90 games (1992-99):
76-14 .844

Last 91 games (2000-present):
62-29 .681

No question, Fulmer has had less success over the past 4 years. We do live in a 'what have you done for me lately' world, particularly in college athletics. If the trend continues Hamilton won't have a choice. Football at UT lays the golden egg for non-revenue mens and womens athletics. I believe only football and mens basketball turn a profit. Football is the reason so many young men and women have the opportunity to compete at a high level in various sports at UT.

Toby, if you and a guy from Farragut can out-coach Fulmer, you're missing your calling by teaching at Rutgers. Are you helping out Schiano? Phil makes $2M. Surely you'd be worth Sabanesque money. I look forward to seeing your name surface for some coaching jobs in the near future.

They are student-athletes, so athletics is one reason they are there. Check the scholars on the track teams, swimming, volleyball and other sports (and yes, football has some too, but for various reasons likely not near as many). Football and basketball get more publicity (and scrutiny), but athletics goes much farther. My point, if it wasn't obvious, is that the revenue football generates allows UT to have to these other sports for men and women and for those sports to have a good budget to compete at a high level.

I was being a bit of a smart eleck and for that I apologize. It just aggravates me that people look at coaches, teachers and (insert your favortie other profession here) and say, 'gee, that's easy, I could do that and even better'. I mean Toby, all you do is read the teacher's manual, use the outline books and CD's that the book publisher gives you (or your department) and stand up and read the outline...right? Then, you spend your time reading and 'researching' with the idea of writing some paper or book no one other than some other professor will read. Your job is easy, right? Any half-wit could do it. Well, I suspect there's more to it and it's a bit more difficult. Same for other professions, including football coaches, particularly those at the highest level.

Fulmer has had less success over the past 4 years. We do live in a 'what have you done for me lately' world, particularly in college athletics.

Particularly? He's a head coach at a top program. This isn't Woody Widenhofer we're talking about here.

Top rankings and bowl bids and championships are performance criteria. Four losses is death in the BCS, and he's already halfway there, 3 games into the season.

Man, I'd love to have a job where I fail to deliver on my promised performance. "Hey, my sales are only at 42% this year, but if you average that out over the last four years, I'm somewhere in the low 90s..."

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

Phil Fulmer couldn't do my job

And you couldn't do his. You're not qualified.

(and a not terribly sophisticated one either)

Tell that to Peyton Manning as he reads defenses, changes blocking schemes and plays, all in 20 seconds or so with 80,000 people screaming at him. And he makes what, about $100M a year for his unsophisticated efforts.

It's interesting how "market forces" apply everywhere else except viz UT football.

Take a look at the increase in the athletic department budget during Fulmer's years as head coach. You might also match up the millions given to academics by those who also contribute substantially to athletics. Ask your President there at Rutgers how last season affected the school. My guess is with a higher profile football team, contributions to and interest in Rutgers all increased.

A question: Would the University of Tennessee exist if its sports programs ceased tomorrow?

Yes, but with less money.

Yes, but with less money.

In another thread, you argued that throwing money at the system is not the way to improve education. At least that's been proven by UT athletics. In what way has UT improved as a school by increased football money?

Maybe there has been an educational quality up tick in very recent years under the latest UT president. But where is any correlation of improved academics to, say, the Fulmer years?

In what way has UT improved as a school by increased football money?

Examine the list of donors to acedemic fundraising and you will see direct ties to athletic (notably football) supporters. UT Administrators understand the importance of a successful athletic department as one part of 'advertising' the University and developing relationships with those who can financially support academic pursuits.

And note this:

In its 2008 America's Best Colleges ranking, U.S. News and World Report placed UT in the top 30 percent of national public universities, ranked 45th among 164 public institutions.

Could be better, but not bad.

UT is a critical part of Knoxville, from the students, to the employees, to other contributions in the arts (Clarence Brown, history collections), the new Baker Center and partnerships with Oak Ridge research facilities. And, yes, also included are successful athletic programs.

Sadly, some will always be critical. It's the same with the city putting more money downtown. Why should the city put money in theaters (the Tennessee, Bijou, Regal Riviera), repairing the S&W and providing events on Market Square? I see lots of good reasons. But, there will always be critics who fail to see the good results from downtown investments. So, carry on the complaining about those 7 Saturdays in the Fall.

In its 2008 America's Best Colleges ranking, U.S. News and World Report placed UT in the top 30 percent of national public universities, ranked 45th among 164 public institutions.

I fail to see how that ties to football. Football money has always been large here. I conceded that there has been a recent academic improvement that relates to things like having a new UT president, and that seems to be reflected in your "proof" above.

Virtually all of the really good (much better than UT) engineering schools in the country have small, crappy football programs. It's also a major stretch to credit UT football for UT's theater department, which built its own reputation many decades ago.

Too bad Maryville College will never be a good liberal arts school until it gets a football program.

Once again, you avoid the obvious. Look at my other comment.

Examine the list of donors to acedemic fundraising and you will see direct ties to athletic (notably football) supporters. UT Administrators understand the importance of a successful athletic department as one part of 'advertising' the University and developing relationships with those who can financially support academic pursuits.

I suggest you ask the new president what he thinks of the athletic department. I know the answer. You'll also find him at every football game, often at midfield accepting checks.

There are good schools with bad football teams and small athletic departments. So what? If you have a good football program, does that mean you necessarily have a bad (or worse) school? Of course not. It's not an either-or proposition.

Would UT all of the sudden be a better academic school if we tore down Neyland Stadium and TBA? No. Let's look just at money, no question a vital need at UT. Athletic Department money and academic money are seperate. The Athletic Department contributes significant money directly to the University. That would be lost. There would be no increase in funding for new professors and new classrooms. In fact, the University would lose a substantial base of support both in donors and in Nashville where many pursestrings are controlled. (I will avoid mentioning that most women's sports and many mens sports would no longer exist or would be scaled back substantially).

I know you don't want to believe it, but the facts are clear. At UT, a successful athletic department helps the school. I've said enough. Keep searching for reasons not to like something which obviously helps the University and Knoxville.

That's a lie. No operating revenue comes from athletics.

To the misinformed:

From the UT Athletic Department annual report at the end of 2006:

Over the past year the University of Tennessee athletics department donated more than $25 million - directly or indirectly - as well as another $6.93 million in tuition payments back to the university for the 2006 fiscal year.

Scholarships

Every year the athletics department provides funds to the university to grant non student-athletes academic scholarships. Theses funds for the fiscal year 2006 totaled $1.375 million, providing more than 2400 students with the opportunity to further their education. In addition, the athletics departments spent $6.93 million for scholarships for 348 student-athletes in the 2005-06 academic year.

University Community Support

Along with its contributions for scholarships, the athletics department also contributes to improving overall campus life in other ways. Through free or reduced rate tickets, licensing revenue, player of the game scholarships and alumni association tickets, the athletics department provided approximately $11.99 million in athletic benefits to the university.

Twenty-eight percent of the athletic department's expenditures in the 2005-06 were spent with Knoxville campus units.

During the fiscal year, the athletics department paid more than $9.1 million for facilities, utilities and maintenance expenses - expenses the university pays for other departments. The athletics department's annual debt service cost for several university parking garages totaled more than $1.125 million.

In 2005-06, the athletics department spent more than $480,000 on travel expenses for the Pride of the Southland Marching Band, $75,000 for band member scholarships and $22,890 for pep band. The athletics department provides funding for three areas with out having any oversight of the units. Last year the department spent $1.6 million to operate the Thornton Athletics Student Center, and approximately $1.2 million to cover the budget shortfall for Thompson-Boling Arena. The athletics department also spent $279,036 to cover operating deficit for Gibbs Residence Hall in addition to its normal housing fees for student-athletes.

Add this to the millions donated by those with substantial athletic connections and, well, you're talking about a lot of 'operating revenue' generated by the athletics department.

$1.375 million, providing more than 2400 students with the opportunity to further their education. In addition, the athletics departments spent $6.93 million for scholarships for 348 student-athletes

$1.4 million = 2400 non athletes
$6.9 million = 348 athletes

-or-

80% more money to help 15% of the total. Can't say that really proves your point.

updated because I realized my math was a bit off. I'd originally put 20% where it now accurately says 80%.

Well then. Maybe only when Army and Navy can kick their football programs up a few notches will our military be able to start winning some wars again.

The 'athletic' department provides a number of full scholarships for athletes. The other money funds various scholarships. Just a guess, but the athlete scholarships likely not only include tuition and books, but also housing and meals. Not so with the non-athlete scholarships. That ramps up the cost substantially for the athlete scholarships.

The math doesn't have to equal out to see that the athletic department is contributing $1.4 million to non-athlete scholarships. Frankly, the number for non athlete scholarships could be zero, as I expect it is at most schools. The point is that the athletic department provides millions to the University for non-athlete scholarships and to maintain/support non-athletic facilities.