What Randy said...And Cherohala too.

Heck, and I thought all those HOGS were cannibalistically eating BBQ and drinking beer at Calhoun's on the River! -- s.

It's really just a matter of enforcement. The laws are already on the books at the state level, tho I doubt if National Park Rangers (the few that are left) can enforce state law. Still, if the state law were strictly enforced on the roads entering the Park it would take care of the problem as long as NC has similar laws and enforces them also.
Biking has become a big revenue source in the area with the Park, the Dragon, and the Cherohala Skyway attracting bikers nationwide. Enforcing the law would be bad for business. I heard there was a lot of whining mainly from the NC side recently with a recent crackdown on the Dragon on the TN side.
A Tennessee legislator recently proposed eliminating the helmet requirement. Maybe the helmet requirement should be removed and then we can just let natural selection take its course.

Randy and Steve are right on; however, while we are on the subject let's extend the ban to include excessively loud off road vehicles, snowmobiles, etc. and to include all public lands where there presence would be unsuitable.

I must add, however, that those HD riders who I passed while walking along Gay St yesterday morning were driving relatively quite motorcycles.

How do you enforce that? I don't like the grinding bike noise either. I also dislike the stereos blasting out the open windows, the cigarette smell permeating the natural forests and the litter. Someone else probably hates the sound of my children laughing and playing in the fields and climbing the trees.

I ride a Harley and like most Harley riders, I agree with you. If you look at recent issues of, "Harley Owners Group" magazine, most letters to the editor strongly oppose the loud pipes. The few who support loud pipes, say it helps other drivers notice them, and therefore saves lives. One letter stated, he has never seen an accident report where the driver stated they never heard the motorcycle, it's always "I never saw the motorcycle." Very few bikes have the loud pipes, but those that do, usually ride together and are the more reckless and beer drinking drivers. At the rally this weekend, I noticed beer sales were very low for crowd that size. I believe you could have carried all the beer sold, the day I attended, in garden wheelbarrow.

I ride a Harley and like most Harley riders, I agree with you. If you look at recent issues of, "Harley Owners Group" magazine, most letters to the editor strongly oppose the loud pipes.

That's good to know. I have noticed it's actually possible to make a quiet Harley, you just can't make some people ride them. Another case of a few bad apples...

Carole, it's one thing if some guy in the neighborhood wants to be a loud, obnoxious oaf. But that's just one guy, and you might hear it once or twice a week.

In the GSMNP, though, it's wave after wave after wave of them, frequently in packs, all day long. It's too much. There are plenty of other places they can ride.

There are all kinds of restrictions in the National Parks intended to preserve and protect not only the parks themselves but people's enjoyment of them. You can't hunt, you can't feed or harass wildlife, you can't pick flowers or dig up plants or cut down trees, you can't litter, you can't camp or have open fires any old place you want, etc. etc. This ought to be another rule.

You can't close "the Dragon" to normal traffic and allow bikes only. God fearin' taxpayin' Blount County residents live on and off that road. Even trying to get trucks off that road has turned into a federal level issue which went no place.

We have seen time and time again enforcement of noise ordinances in other national parks. So why not here?

I would like to have the freedom to backpack 2 1/2 miles up the Appalachian Trail from Newfound Gap to the Icewater Springs shelter, enjoy the sounds of nature and chatting with fellow hikers there, without having to listen to the rumble of Harleys 2 1/2 miles away fill the air.

Let me give you an example of something else very similar.

Does someone with a bright nightlight have the right to take away your stars?

We're facing this very thing in Roane County. The folks who run the Roane State Observatory are losing the ability to show students the wonders of the universe because developments are installing lights that shine up and obscure the stars.

So do I have the freedom to scream in your ears anytime I feel the need to be noticed?

without having to listen to the rumble of Harleys 2 1/2 miles away fill the air.

Not being much of a hiker (Pupster isn't allowed on the trails, another good restriction, but she goes everywhere we go or we generally don't go), I was wondering how far in the back county you'd have to go to get away from that noise. I guess it's more than 2.5 miles.

I should also note that you can go up to Metcalf Bottoms and wade in the river and not hear anything but the river until a pack of loud bikers comes by. (Or one of those little Japanese cars with tin-can mufflers and big subwoofers and neon lights underneath.)

This kind of "freedom" just doesn't do anything for me. There's just no upside to straight pipes. In normal riding conditions they sap about 20-30% of the hp from an engine that would otherwise generate power over a much broader range. They're just a way to let the poor schmuck who isn't getting enough attention make the world notice. Lots of peer pressure and hearing loss factoring into this too.

The thing these guys missed in kindergarten is that it's rude to annoy or disrupt other people's enjoyment of a public space just because you want to get your jollies making noise. The golden rule and the idea that your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose (or ears) ought to take care of that, but some folks haven't caught on and we can either let them run wild or pass laws to make them behave. Society has generally voted in favor of financial spankings as an educational inducement and lengthy time-out sessions for the slower learners.

It's a shame we aren't focusing more on this sort of quality of life issue as a natural extension of the broken window theory.

FWIW, I don't think there should be any private motorized vehicles in the Park. A shuttle network would let a lot more people enjoy the park without so much time spent looking at the back end of a minivan. It would be a big improvement for hikers: imagine being able to get dropped off at any trailhead (without worrying about what happens to your car while you're gone) and then pop out at any road-trail intersection. No more there & back or two car shuttles. Cleaner air, no more bear-jams.

I don't have a topo map handy but technically the road is probably not 2.5 air miles from the shelter. The road drops down to Cherokee in the Oconaluftee drainage while the trail and the shelter are on the top of the ridgeline high above. It's still a long way and the bike rumble is the only man-made sound that can be clearly heard there all the time.

I agree with Randy about the National Parks, People go there for solitude and to get away from the noise of the cities. Whether it be one persons loud music, car or motorcycle it can be disruptive to many people. The noise is a contradiction to the reason why the parks were created in the first place.

Adrift in the Sea of Humility

Gee, yeah. Let's let people do what they want. We can then have our picnics in a Wal-Mart parking lot right above the sinks.

I ride a Harley but happen to agree that loud bikes (cars, stereos, etc.) shouldn't be allowed in the park, or on the street at all for that matter. I'm all for individual rights, but when they start trampling on the rights of others, I have a problem with it.

When I bought the Harley I have now, it was used and had loud pipes on it. Riding it for more than ten minutes or so, even with earplugs (for me, the rider!) was misery. I can't even imagine riding something like that for long distances. I put quiet pipes on it, and it's fine. Not to mention back in a street legal configuration.

I don't know if anyone else noticed this or not, but there's a big difference in the stereotypical crowds between the Honda Hoot and the HOG rally. And no offense to anyone, as I said I ride a Harley, but I saw far more HOG members who were rather scary riders and seemed to be more into image than riding skills than I saw at Honda Hoot.

I think this is reflected in the death rates among bikers: there are an awful lot of guys and gals in their fifties buying big ass Harleys as their first bikes and just go out and ride them without any training, or much respect for how dangerous a big powerful bike can be for a novice.

Coyote Joes on Clinton Highway and other joints like it scare me to death. Huge numbers of big V twins at a beer joint, probably with many of the riders sucking down brew, scares me. Lots of posers. Let's dress up like bikers, scarf down a few cold ones and admire our bikes. OK, stereotyping, but I saw too many of these this weekend.

The Hoot, on the other hand, seems to cater to more of a cross-country riding crowd. A crowd that, at least from what I observed on the highway, seems to be made up of a larger number of more seasoned riders. I didn't see as many riders scaring me with their skill levels when Honda Hoot was in town as I did this weekend. I didn't hear nearly as many loud pipes either. Is it image or is it riding?

There are, of course, plenty of exceptions. I consider myself to be one of those. But there really isn't an excuse for imposing on other peoples rights while exercising your own. Leave the loud pipes at the race track. Leave the loud stereos off the streets too.

sp

During the Honda Hoot, there were several motorcycle accidents reported in the area, including four on "The Dragon" in one day. The Tennessee Highway patrol issued more than two hundred tickets during the Honda Hoot on "The Dragon" During the Harley Rally, there was no mention of problems or accidents on "The Dragon." If there was an accident in Knoxville, I failed to see any media reports on it.

I was wrong about the THP tickets and accidents on "The Dragon." These events occurred about two weeks following the Honda Hoot. Sorry

Well, it certainly would not be practical in most places; however, many years ago I worked for a short time in Cherokee, NC during which time there was a gathering of Harley riders. After a certain time of night when a Harley entered the city a patrol car would pull in about a foot behind it (or them) and would follow it until it parked or exited the city.

And Carol Borges, what do you have against wildlife? We intrude when we build the road; the least we can do is respect the habitat by restricting noise.

As many of you are aware, the federal government is addressing the Dragon’s Tail by recommending the road be replaced by an Interstate and by replacing motorcycles with eighteen wheelers.

The one good thing about being pessimistic is - at least it shows you understand the situation. -- Unknown

What? What? What?

Wait, semis still use that highway. Right?

I am still trying to get TDOT to explain any plans for extending 95 into Blount County. I guess if they want to replace Calderwood Highway with an interstate we residents will be the last to know.

"Wait, semis still use that highway. Right?"

Wrong. I think I saw a semi on that stretch of 129 ... once. But no, we don't need an interstate through there. And yes, Santeelah is my favoritist lake but it won't be if there's an interstate going along its shore.

Part of the appeal is its inacessability. So close but yet so far.

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

My birthday camping trip in the Smoky Mtns. was utterly ruined by motorcyle noise this past weekend. The trail of Harleys ahead of us on the overcrowded Cade's Cove loop insured my kids would have NO chance of seeing ANY wildlife.

I'm behind shuttling visitors through 100%! And, if you'd like to pay a "big" donation, you can drive on through. I'm not sure why this concept isn't being more thoroughly investigated.

Andrea, you would be in the same boat as beach goers who 'happen' to pick the second or third week in May to go to Myrtle Beach (which is Bike Week with about 250,000 bikes, or about 15 times what was here this weekend). Loud pipes are everywhere. They get non-stop pipe roar, almost 24 hours a day. I ride over every year (about 1,500 miles for the week). Same for all bike rallies I've been to.

With the HOG rally in town, this weekend was an exception, not the rule. The bikes with loud pipes are the exception. Bikes with louder pipes are a brief passing. I don't think a ban is necessary. What other nuisances shall we choose?

My pipes aren't stock, but they're not loud. Just a bit deeper rumble. I took the packing out when I put different chrome tips on, but the baffles are still there. I don't like to ride behind bikes with loud pipes. I can't hear the stereo on my bike.

I don't get the appeal of driving a loud vehicle . . . even on city highways. I guess it's just not in my blood. All I hear is an annoying noise.

This is doubly true out in the mountains. Isn't the point to be out experiencing nature?

Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.

Do people have the right to peace and quiet?

If I'm sitting on my deck in the country, do I have the right to expect my neighbors to not ride atv's all night?

We already have a law in Knoxville (and most other cities) that a vehicle stereo system can't be audible from more than 50 ft away (I've seen it enforced in Nashville, but never in Knoxville). Any good reason why an engine shouldn't be held to the same standards?

The only point I was originally trying to maou have to be really careful when you start trying to "get rid" of others with habits that might annoy you. The shoe could very easily someday be on the other foot. . . and we also have to try to learn to accommodate the needs of others.

Not getting rid of any people, just the rude actions. I don't think it's all that difficult to figure out when you're being inconsiderate most of the time and I don't see why everyone else should have to put up with it. Technology is simultaneously eroding social structure and making it easier to do rude things. It's really a shame that it has to come down to law, but that seems to be all we have left.

I think that any modification to make a vehicle louder should be illegal, be it a motorcycle or a car. Why do people want their Honda Civics to be so loud? Enforcement would be key, and I fear it would be nonexistent. God forbid TN would have any sort of vehicle inspection!

The last time I was on the Cherohala, the problem wasn't the loud bikes, it was the guys on the "racing type" bikes (I'm sure there is a more correct term). They seem to believe the scenic byway should be their personal slalom course and are annoyed that anyone would actually want to enjoy the scenery.

"racing type" bikes (I'm sure there is a more correct term)

The correct term is "crotch rocket".

We heard Harley exhaust noise coming from Alcoa Hwy constantly from Friday afternoon until Sunday morning. It was absolutely continuous, always there, all day Saturday. It wasn't THAT loud at our house, but it was bothersome and our neighborhood walks were upset because our more fearful dog kept shutting down from his stress level resulting from the noise.

As a culture we tend to just block out and ignore ever increasing noises/disturbances until they reach a certain threshold. The majority always seems to be expected to cut more and more slack. Our tolerance threshold just keeps getting pushed and we usually acquiesce. We're expected to be good sports, but it is politically incorrect to expect those "exercising their freedoms" to show any friggin' respect for the rest of us.

When you have tourism events like this, there are pros and cons, winners and losers. Unfortunately, there is never a debate about this and who will suffer while others benefit. We are just told by government officials who sanction such events that it's an economic slam dunk. To whom? What will "we" do with the money? Why should we all care? What are the drawbacks? (They are considerable IMO.)

Put me in the camp that's sick and tired of being sick and tired of being expected to endure more and more. Noise as well as other hardships and inconveniences. We're effectively paying to stimulate our economy and there's a lack of honesty about what it costs and who is paying for it.

This may be just one weekend, but there are MANY such weekends that equally apply. Anybody else sick of Boomsday? Bet the (remaining) wildlife could live better without it. I'd like to see a doctoral thesis on the effect of fireworks on birds and fish. Of course, it is all about us, er--I mean--the short term economic drivers.

If you want to enjoy blowing out your own ears, buy a music player with headphones. Leave the rest of us to enjoy a little peace. That's practicing good karma.

Rant over for now.

I can't enjoy riding my bicycle around the Cades Cove loop because of all the cars. Its dangerous to ride a bicycle with all the cars forcing you off the road, polluting the area with their egg smelling fumes, and scaring the wildlife with the noise from their car. I agree with some of the other comments, the park should be closed to all motorized traffic, except for a public shuttle.

They do seem to be vocal and gaining power. If they are lucky Tennessee will someday probably be all nice, clean, well preserved, quiet, and full of people whose noses wrinkle at even thought of contacting anything annoying (to them). It could even have a gate encircling it and the Smokies, so people would have to pay to come in and the riff-raff could be kept out. Yeah, that would be very charming, like a little castle wall maybe with Disneyesque turrets?

It's okay. I'm adaptable. I'm also very intrigued to see just how far people will carry this trend. When it starts to burn those who have been throwing gasoline on the fire, like when the government comes in and takes away their house so they can build a "prettier" development there, I sure hope these types will comply nicely and not complain.

Unfortunately the people who support development and massive city ordinaces are 2nd cousins to the "legislative needy". They ain't kissing cousins, but they sure are related in the sense that they want to bully everyone into doing it "their way". Assuming always that their way is of course perfectly logical and reasonable.

I sympathize with noise problems and some of the concerns brought up here, but I do think it's not only folly, but downright dangerous to always look to more and more laws to solve these kinds of problems.

It's never a chice between "eating it" or "arrest the dummies" you know. But it seems those are the two tidy boxes some people want to live in, so more power to them.

I don't think there should be any private motorized vehicles in the Park. A shuttle network would let a lot more people enjoy the park without so much time spent looking at the back end of a minivan. It would be a big improvement for hikers: imagine being able to get dropped off at any trailhead (without worrying about what happens to your car while you're gone) and then pop out at any road-trail intersection. No more there & back or two car shuttles. Cleaner air, no more bear-jams.

This is the way it works in Denali.

One problem: You'd have to charge admission to make this work. Something has to pay for the buses and for the drivers, and your taxes and campground fees won't cut it. The park is strapped as it is.

With the HOG rally in town, this weekend was an exception, not the rule. The bikes with loud pipes are the exception. Bikes with louder pipes are a brief passing. I don't think a ban is necessary.

You don't hike, do you? It's not like you're in a car and they're by you in an instant. I've hiked the Chestnut Top ridge and could hear them for minutes at a time, followed by another wave not long after. And this was not during the Hog rally. There isn't a day that there aren't super-loud motorcycles in GSMNP.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

You don't hike, do you?

I used to a lot. I've done Davenport Gap to Fontana Dam on the AT and a number of other trails in the Park. But now, not so much. Other hobbies and other stuff taking up my time.

One problem: You'd have to charge admission to make this work. Something has to pay for the buses and for the drivers, and your taxes and campground fees won't cut it. The park is strapped as it is.

I would be happy for my government to stop invading other countries and divert some of my tax money to this, but that's just me. Back to the (semi-) real world, eventually there will be an EPA again with impact studies, non-attainment zones and court rulings that set a date to shut the park down if something isn't done. It may be years or decades, but cars will be kicked out of our most abused national park at some point.

I would be happy for my government to stop invading other countries and divert some of my tax money to this, but that's just me.

It's not just you.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

As much as I'd like to go back in time and have a do-over on the Iraq war vote, I don't think that's technologically possible. Since the money's already been borrowed & spent I don't think we're looking at a surplus anytime soon.

I'd like to see the park charge a stiff fee to take a private vehicle into Cades Cove. Use that money to pay for trolleys.

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

Dear Land Lovers,
What you would do with the lands you stole and the plans you are now devising to manage them better seem very thoughtful. As you know, your people's record of good management of natural resources is outstanding. Before you came there were no cars, no signs in the forests, no fences. The lands managed themselves. Your improvements however have added much. The idea of trolleys sounds really good. Perhaps they could have glass sides, so the people wouldn't even have to get out. The bears might appreciate that. The stiff fee idea does bother me though. You see my great, great grandchildren unfortunately are poor. They once were rich, you know. They owned the lands you are now discussing, but of course that was not in the best interest of all concerned. Thank you for being so considerate as to decide now what new rules you will impose on people who want to visit these precious tourist attractions. Thus far your decisions have done much to improve the land that we so poorly misused. Your educated stewardship is appreciated by all native peoples, so keep up the good work.

A few observations...

Loud motorcycles are using illegal mufflers. Motorcycles and street legal mufflers are manufactured to be as quiet as a normal passenger car per long standing federal regulations. Owners swap out the original muffler for a loud one not meant for the street.

Does it seem like a problem that over 80% of the motorcycles on the road are using mufflers not meant for street use? I think that people need to stand up for their rights against this BS.

The preferred enforcement solution is simple, fair, and based on law. Officers should ticket any motorcycle which does not have a muffler with the EPA label which will be present and clearly visible on all street legal equipment.

National Parks like the smokey mountains have their own set of code that is enforced by park police. You might contact the park superintendent and request an addition to this park "compendium" to require that motorcycles use mufflers with the EPA label. Same thing for your local and state laws, make sure that they are worded correctly to work with the federal regulations below, then pressure for strict enforcement of those laws.

Subpart D—Motorcycles

(link...)

Subpart E—Motorcycle Exhaust Systems

(link...)