Fri
Jun 22 2007
10:54 pm
By: Bbeanster

Remember back at the beginning of "Sundown" season when I raised some criticisms of the event, mainly having to do with an overabundance of teenagers, and particularly teenagers who were either finding a way to get obnoxiously drunk at the event, or who arrived in that condition?

I didn't get much backup for my contentions that it's time to look at moving it to another location -- and in fact got attacked, in a couple of cases, for daring to suggest that the concerts are generally not good for retail business (depending on who is playing).

Welp, not only has KPD cracked down on teenaged drunks at the event this year (Yay!), but I see others making the same observations that I did, and wondering whether other locations might be more suitable for the event. I think Sundown is a victim of its own success, and has outgrown Market Square.

Although some might accuse me of being pretty much against everything and figure, much like a stopped watch giving the correct time twice a day, that I'm bound to be right occasionally, I think I'm being vindicated on this score.

Being a curmudgeon is a lonely job. Pay's pretty shitty, too.

Link...

SammySkull's picture

I pretty much quit going a

I pretty much quit going a couple of years ago when I got tired of drunk people tripping over the stroller (I stayed on the edges where people should be able to walk) and then glaring at me. I quit going when people seemed so oblivious to my children that they were bumping my kid's heads with their hips as they walked past and acting as if we were the problem.

The whole thing is a great idea, but I have to agree in wondering if it hasn't outgrown it's home.

It's sad when the people having the most fun are responsible for so many others having no fun.

CBT's picture

I'm usually the one looking

I'm usually the one looking out of place in a suit heading to my car at 6:30. I park in Market Square Garage, so I have to cut straight through.

I did manage to ride my motorcycle back downtown to check out on the of the concerts earlier this year. I felt like I crashed a city-wide high school party, with a few 'too cool' college folks for good measure. The music was loud and not particularly good (I admit, it was likely the group and not the sound, etc.). Beer was relatively expensive (pay for wrist band id, pay $5, I think, for cup of keg beer). Hardly anyone was actually listening. They were all just standing around talking, seeing and being seen.

In the end, there's nothing particularly appealing about Sundown for me, unless there's a group I really like (which usually means they were more popular 15-20 years ago) and even then I don't know that I would go. I've become wary of attending many 'free' events in my hometown. It usually means a gazillion people turnout for something they may care nothing about, but 'pack up the kids we're headin' to town cause, well, it's free'.

I don't know that Sundown needs changing. It's just not for me. If they changed it, I might go more. But, it's not a requirement that it be appealing to me.

Carole Borges's picture

It sounds like Sundown has changed a lot...

Not having been here when it was conceived, I've never found it to be any different from any other free public concert in a university city. Young people here actually seem much nicer than in Boston, Santa Cruz CA or New Orleans where they can become totally disgusting.

Maybe the solution is to have more free concerts with bands that appeal more to us "older folks"? I've noticed that the Riverfront area is really under-utilized. That would be a nice spot to have concerts for families. I know some will say Market Square should be for everyone, but Sundown does seem successful enough as it is. I've been there a few times, and it's always jam-packed and there are many families and older people there. So not everyone finds it awful. It sounds like the people posting about bad experiences have met the worst, and that's too bad.

No teenyboppers I've ever run into in Knoxville have been rude to me, and I'm out and about in Market Square and even Old City fairly often. Their language and adolescent behavior is no longer my cup of tea, but the kids here have always been very polite, more so than I'm used to even. At first I did feel a little intimidated about entering the Grotto late at night, but a couple of times I wanted to experience bands they had there, so I did. I found the place pretty friendly and not all that wild either.

Only once did I encounter ageism. One night a friend and I decided to see what the Red Iguana was all about. We didn't know where it was, so we stopped a couple of teenage girls to ask. Both of us were surprised when we realized they were gently trying to persuade us to go elsewhere. "I don't think you'd enjoy it," one girl said with sweetly. "It gets kind of wild in there sometimes."

As if I had been sheltered all my life? It made me feel like a geezer, but she was only trying to belpful.

It's hard for me to think kids today are crazier than my generation. In the 60s free concerts in Chicago were much like Bonnaroo with drugs, nakedness, and a much too frequent use of the word F#uck. Today kids say friggin' and it sounds much better.

It sounds like Sundown started out as a much quieter concept and that must be frustrating for older people who hoped be able enjoy a night in Market Square in a more civilized way, but it seems to me young people have really helped make Market Square what it is today. Not the 16 year olds, but the 20-35 year old crowd, and they aren't all that bad. I've also seen guards carding people who enter the Square for Sundown, so they can't be too young.

A young person posting about rudeness on a Yahoo webiste said, "Some people definitely are (rude). However, I don't find it to be an age thing. I am 20 and I have many older people be VERY rude to me for no reason. I work in customer service and no matter how much I do for someone or how nice and polite I am I am still treated horribly by older people much more often than younger people. I also witness older people being rude to others more often than I witness younger people. Please dont think I'm just biased because I'm young. My family raised me to be polite and nice to everyone and I am appaled at rudeness despite age and there are a lot of rude people out there."

I guess it's all in how you look at things.

spratt's picture

"If it's too loud..

..then you're too old" was printed on a Tshirt I saw a kid wearing at a Dylan concert a few years ago. Maybe he was right. I've worn earplugs at shows for years now. Sundown is particularly bad about it though. The buildings on either side of the square can turn the sound system into an audio frequency death ray for anyone trying to walk into the crowd.

The first sundowns were fun, but they've evolved into a disaster waiting to happen. With that many people crammed into that small a space with limited egress, it wouldn't take much of an incident to trigger a stampede complete with trampling and all those other ugly things that have hit some of the soccer stadiums.

The Worlds Fair Park seems like the obvious place to move the event to make it more comfortable as well as safer.

AC's picture

A few comments in response

A few comments in response to the above:

First of all, I've probably been the #1 advocate of looking at moving Sundown to the World's Fair Park. I've been proposing the possibility for years. There's a lot to consider in doing so, but it certainly has it's attractions from my perspective. Overall, it would be a much easier event to oversee and control if it were there.

However, the general response to this from Market Square business and property owners (i.e. the MSDA) - and, consequently, from the City of Knoxville - has been generally negative. The consensus has been strongly in support of keeping it on the Square.

That was especially the case this year, which was Sundown's 10th anniversary.

The politics can be interesting. There was a bit of an outcry last summer when we chose not to continue with the autumn version of Sundown - Autumn on the Square - and several business and property owners and downtown advocates accused us of "deserting Market Square" in wake of the drama surroundings the Wests (actually, the decision was made weeks before that and was based solely on the fact that the series wasn't really successful).

The truth is that Sundown IS, in many ways, a victim of its own success. I agree that there are issues - it is often too crowded for me (though not always) and while - unlike others - I'm really glad that it attracts young people, there have been some problems with underage drinking (mostly with liquor brought from home and consumed off site) and, yes, we've worked hard with the KPD to eliminate that.

Of course, it's success has also made it a prime target for those who are simply looking to vent their negativity as well.

The truth is that you can't make all of the people happy all of the time. But I'm totally open to re-thinking Sundown...believe me. There are many issues to consider.

AC's picture

By the way, Betty, when you

By the way, Betty, when you raised your objections a few months ago, you did so by suggesting that there was a general anti-Sundown sentiment amongst Market Square retail business oweners in general. This was simply not the case and you were being held accountable for creating a false impression.

Bbeanster's picture

Interesting.I've had

Interesting.
I've had conversations with two MS retailers in the past month.
I will not mention their names, but neither would mind if it moved.

And perhaps my recollection is faulty, but what I recall about the fall event was that Scott West wanted to do it himself a couple of years ago, and you objected to his putting on some kind of copycat event.

AC's picture

I never said that 100% are

I never said that 100% are supporters - only the majority. This was certainly true before the season this year. If it wasn't, then the event would not be happening. If things have changed, then we'll find out when we do a re-cap after the season is over.

I never objected to Scott doing an event. Many others can and do stage events at Market Square. I simply requested that Scott not do his event on Thursday nights so as to avoid confusion. He readily agreed and actually chose to do nothing when he learned that we were planning to do a fall series as well.
However, this has nothing to do with what I wrote...which is that Market Square merchants did not want us to stop doing the fall series last year.

In fact, when we chose to stop the fall series, we went to the Market Square merchants early (in late May) to inform them so that they coudl do their own series if they wished. As you may recall, Scott West was doing just that when he was arrested, with the first show starting in early August with Scott Miller and Robinella.

Isn't it true, Betty that you have a bit of hidden agenda here, in that you are close friends with a Market Square merchant and a former Market Square resident who have been among those, shall we say, less enthusisastic about Sundown? They are, of course, welcome to their opinions, and you are of course welcome to share those opinions with all of us. But it is false and misleading to suggest that these opinions somehow have reflected the prevailing view of Market Square business owners in general.

You have misrepresented this - and other "facts" - repeatedly on this forum in order to support your opinion. You should have a higher standard.

AC's picture

One more comment and another

One more comment and another observation and I'll let it go...

Betty's attack on Sundown a few months ago also implied that we were allowing a "free-for-all" for underaged drinking. Nothing could be further from the truth and the system that we've set up has been hailed as exemplary and studied. And, I believe that the KPD will confirm that most...if not all...of the underage drinking issues that they've dealt with involved off-premises consumption prior to the event...mostly with liquor, not beer, that's been taken from home.

Interestingly, Nashville's free outdoor concert series Dancin' in the District is no more. It had a similar evolution to Sundown. Initially hailed as a huge success and boon to downtown and downtown businesses, complaints about ever-increasing youthful audience led to the event being moved across the river with a small cover charge. It died. Now, I hear that some downtown advocates in Nashville are looking to find a way to revive it because they miss those weeknight crowds.

StaceyDiamond's picture

Sundown

I remember 10 years ago feeling a little young at Sundown, with it being mostly old hippies and then a few years later feeling a little old and clausterphobic. In any case, I think its one of the best things to happen to downtown Knoxville and I hope it stays downtown. The kids seem a bit better since the arrests and I agree with an earlier MP editorial that they should be welcomed. My only complaint is I feel a bit violated to have rent-a-cops search my purse. I enjoy being able to go to other downtown businesses before or after the show and being able to get pretty close to the stage. That kind of intimate feel and easy access is not possible at the World's Fair Park. I especially enjoyed the Wailers, the Brazillian Girls and Ozomatli this year and the World Grotto has done a great job with having music before and after Sundown.

Bbeanster's picture

Hidden agenda? Yeah, right.

Hidden agenda?

Yeah, right. I'm always getting accused of launching stealth attacks, and people are always having to guess what I think. I am also very easily led.
(sarcasm alert)

There has always been a difference of opinion about the direction Market Square should take. I disagree with your position on that direction. I don't think that $9 million for a vast expanse of chewing gum-dotted concrete was money well-spent (although I do like the fountains), and I liked Krutch Park much better the way it used to be. I said there were too many drunk teenagers at Sundown for my tastes. I said that many of them probably arrived drunk.

I was a big admirer of yours, going back to Ella Guru days. I think you've done some great things. Other things I'm not as crazy about. One of them is your penchant for the personal attack.

AC's picture

Betty, you have represented

Betty, you have represented the opinions of two Market Square residents/business owners (one present, one former) who happen to be your friends as the prevailing opinion. You refuse to acknowledge that their positions happen to be the minority opinions.
This is not about MY position of the direction Market Square should take. Market Square is about far more than Sundown in the City. I had NOTHING to do with the redesign of Market Square or Krutch Park. In fact, my input about the stage went completely ignored and resulted in a structure that doesn't work very well for our purposes. And if the majority of Market Square business owners and merchants want SITC to go away, then it will. It's as simple as that.
You have a penchant for gross hyperbole and exaggeration - well represented by the comment about chewing gum-dotted concrete above. If holding you accountable for the accuracy of your information - or calling attention to your relationships to some of the naysayers that are your sources - is a "personal attack" then so be it. I'm sorry you see it that way.

Bbeanster's picture

Difficult as it may be for

Difficult as it may be for you to believe, AC, I have more than two friends. Three, maybe, or four. And I don't know if the people with whom I've spoken are a majority -- I think there has always been a difference of opinion re Sundown between many of the retail owners and the restaurant/bar businesses, for reasons that are easy to understand. And since restaurant/bars outnumber retail, I suspect they will want Sundown to stay right there. That, I think is an outgrowth of the original argument over what Market Square should be -- an entertainment district or a mix of retail, office, residential and restaurant.

But my conclusions are my own and Susan Key, to whom you are referring, is not one of the retailers to whom I spoke about the effects of Sundown. I like Susan and have defended her from many a GOB attack, but it doesn't make much sense to ask what she thinks of this year's version of Sundown when she's been gone from the Square for, what, two years? three? I lose count.

If I misrepresented/misinterpreted your views on the redesign, I apologize. That stage is pretty worthless, and they should have solicited your advice if they were going to build one.

p.s.: There are lots of globs of something on the Square floor. I'm mostly there during the daytime anymore, and it looks nasty.

spratt's picture

I appreciate

the music that AC has brought into town over the years, and I support Sundown even though it's gotten too crowded for me to go to it any more. Knoxville was a pretty dead place musically before the days of Ella's and some the other ventures over the years. It was frustrating since places all around us were bringing in interesting music, but Knoxville was, by and large, skipped over. There was plenty of good local music on the scene, but we were missing a lot.

Thanks, AC. I do hope that you can talk the powers that be into letting Sundown move to a more appropriate venue for what it has become.

Knox Insider 007's picture

AC, Don't worry about the attacks.

First Submitted by Bbeanster on Sat, 2007/06/23 - 12:04pm. Interesting. I've had conversations with two MS retailers in the past month.

Then AC sets the record straight and then this responseSubmitted by Bbeanster on Sat, 2007/06/23 - 3:30pm.... Three, maybe, or four.

AC, you are right when you say to bbeanster. You have a penchant for gross hyperbole and exaggeration

It is so obvious that the blind, deaf and speechless recognize the traits of bbeanster.

AC, Keep bringing Knoxville up and don't worry about the vocal minority.

Bbeanster's picture

Heckuva job, Horny.

Heckuva job, Horny.

calloway's picture

That link was like sifting

That link was like sifting through the minutes of the official knoxville old farts club. I guess drunken folks really REALLY bother some people. I've had my newborn out to two of the series this year, the crowd was fine, and no one needed earplugs.

CBT's picture

Careful Betty, you're

Careful Betty, you're treading on thin ice. You'll get one (well, another one) of those threatening emails. You've been warned!

CBT

littlelulu21's picture

Market Square Music and Mayhem

I think I must be much older than most of you who have commented about Sundown In the City. So, if I may, let me take you on a stroll down memory lane. There was once a Market House on the square and it was the hub of activity every day of the week downtown and especially on weekends! There were music stores all along the square and they had no way of letting people know about the latest 45rpm records without playing them on loudspeakers outside their stores. The volume got pretty high and the folks loved it. They played "You Ain't Nothin' But A Houndog" all day when it was first released and every farmer on the square was running into that store to buy the record. WNOX radio station was inside the old Market House and they hosted the Saturday Night Barn Dance which broadcast from that location. They broadcast the Mid-day Merri-Go-Round around noon and played all the latest music and often it was piped onto the square. No one seemed to mind the "noise" back then....in fact they seemed to welcome it. It seemed to brighten the days of most people and put a bounce in their step as they walked along the square. Personally, I was glad to see live entertainment come back to Market Square after so many years of silence and decay. Sometimes I even miss the sound of the "street preachers" who shouted their version of the gospel loud and clear from the street corners. And I miss the blind man who used to stroll along the square playing his guitar and singing songs for the quarters which were tossed into his donation cup.

And, back then you could see much worse than globs of chewing gum on the pavement. Many old timers chewed tobacco and felt free to spit on the sidewalk when they felt the need. Frankly, I think I would rather dodge the gum than a wad of tobacco!

Perhaps there is a valid point that "some teenagers" have shown up drunk and disorderly....but what's new about that? I'm sure KPD can handle the kids who confuse a good time with being "drunk as monkey's" in a public place.

If there are problems AC seems more than willing to fix them. So, do we really want to throw the baby out with the bath water? Sundown is a good event and I hope it continues. Perhaps, to accomodate those folks who would prefer a different type of music AC might be willing to host a "oldies but goodies" night just for us. As I recall some of that old music was pretty good and I would certainly attend a Sundown event which featured the music of my youth.

Keep up the good work, AC, and you'll be doing a good thing. You can't make everyone happy.

Carole Borges's picture

I think the posts here reflect the facts

Some people love it
Some people hate it
Some people don't care

Personally, I love seeing Market Square teeming with people, kids playing in the fountains in the daytime while shoppers stroll the high-quality retail shops. I love sitting outside at the Koi or standing in line to get into the Tomato Head. I love bringng friends down to the weird maze of caves that is the Grotto or to Sundown to see what Knoxville looks like when she lets her hair down. I also love the Riverwalk and World's Fair Park and our wonderful KMA. I love the free concerts at the Blue Plate Special, the great abundance of statues strewn about town, the Beck Center, and all our great museums. And who doesn't love the UT Gardens?

Variety is the spice of life and we've got plenty of it here.

Young kids will always seem insane and awful to the generation that owned the world before them. Thank god for this! Youth makes our world new. We've had our day. We've had it our way. Now it's time to see what they can create.

In the end maybe all we have is our memories, so the good old days and the good old ways are precious too.

I think there is room for the old and new in Knoxville. Market Square is the locus. To me everything radiates out of there.

I rarely travel farther than Bearden because beyond that lies (yawn) the West...strip mall city and suburbia. Nice I guess. But to me the city is the thing, and it's so heartwarming to see Market Square and our downtown growing and expanding. Everyone really ought to shop there, eat there, have meetings there or invite friends to take a stroll or watch the ducks paddling on the river. Everyone should experience the feeling you get when you stand beneath those colossal arches that bridge our north and south or admire the forties architecture on Gay Street. Everything is pretty much within walking distance, and walking i so good for you. You can take in a play, go have a cup of coffee at Java City, or enjoy a burger and beer on Calhoun's outdoor deck. Knoxville is truly wonderful place and I think it's really, really important no matter what our differences might be that we give our downtown area total support.

Oh, okay...so now you can know...this old fart is gaga over downtown Knoxville and I'm really excited to be a part of its revitalization.

Bill Pittman's picture

In the spirit of Yogi

In the spirit of Yogi Berra...Nobody goes to Sundown any more 'cause its too crowded.

StaceyDiamond's picture

more on Knox music scene

I second that the Blue Plate special is great, how cool is it to attend concerts at noon. I've also noticed a huge difference in the Square. As recent as early 05 there was only a couple of restaurants open past the lunch rush now they line the Square and are crowded most nights. I attribute this to Sundown, the Ice Rink, the residences, the bars with music 7 nights a week, etc etc, the synergy is right, let's keep it up.

Scruffy Citysin's picture

My Scruffy Opinion

Personally, I, for the most part, have written Sundown off because of the crowds, the noise, and the horrible sound. Can’t recall attending any concerts last year and only attended one for less than ten minutes this year. The one favorable change that I did note was the expanded area in front of the stage for those who were there to enjoy and move to the music. In short, I’m one of those who think the HMS is not the place for a summer concert series but as long as there are sponsors, support from the majority of merchants, and folks who enjoy the series so be it.

Although, I would be curious, Ashley, to know how you determine the success of a series; I would assume returning UT students would turn out in abundance for a fall series.

Unfortunately, MS’s bad acoustics also has an effect Shakespeare on the Square when many times during a performance the actors cannot be heard because on conversations on the Preservation Pub patio and among those passing by.

The real issue to me, however, is that we are discussing this during the 25th anniversary of the Worlds Fair and we are still referring to downtown and the WFP as separate areas, which unfortunately they still are after the millions of dollars of debt the city has incurred ‘improving’ both areas. As Jack Neely wrote a few weeks ago, the few major events hosted at the convention center appear to have a minimum effect on downtown.

At one time the WFP was the site of several annual community events that were well attended and AC Entertainment produced a summer concert series that attracted hundreds of paying attendees. That, however, was before PBA destroyed the south lawn as a venue and failed to construct the promised performance stage.

Measured by return on investment, I doubt that either the city’s investment in infrastructure or the corporate sponsorships of Sundown in the City would qualify as a success.

Carole Borges's picture

I'm glad you mentioned Shakespeare in the Square

It's a terrible shame they perform in Market Square. It is totally impossible to hear most of the lines beyond the first two rows of chairs, and you know how hard those actors work to deliver a good performance. This troupe should definitely find another home. There was another play there this spring that also was ruined by the poor acoustics. I guess a much better sound system might help, but as it stands, I usually end up writing off any plays in the Square.

Brian Hornback's picture

Note to

bbeanster and cbt. If I have anything to say it will appear with my name on it.

Thank you for your interest and have a nice day.

CBT's picture

Hey now, I don't want any

Hey now, I don't want any trouble. I wasn't accusing you of posting. I was just warning Bean.

But hey, don't stop now. Surely the post influential political blog in the state is worthy of your opinion.

Brian Hornback's picture

cbt

But hey, don't stop now. Surely the post influential political blog in the state is worthy of your opinion

In reviewing your comment, I am taking the liberty to assume you meant MOST not the post. I sometimes get criticized for an occasional word or grammer error. But I do know the difference in most and post.

Being the owner and operator of the most influential political blog in the state since 2004. I will continue to post on Brian's Blog. However, I am here to respond using my name when I deem neccesary. So that individuals do not assume that every other poster is me.

Thanks for your interest and have a nice day.

rocketsquirrel's picture

multiple personalities

However, I am here to respond using my name when I deem neccesary.

so, you're saying you have multiple personalities on KnoxViews? One would infer from the statement above that you do indeed respond with and without your name. Is that correct?

ps: you misspelled "necessary." Most people know the difference between necessary and neccesary. Oh, and "grammer" is spelled "grammar."

thanks for noticing Chad's spelling. "and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." (Hemingway.)

Have a nice day.

CBT's picture

Being the owner and operator

Being the owner and operator of the most influential political blog in the state since 2004. I will continue to post on Brian's Blog.

Now that is funny. Care to reveal the number of comments in the last week? Site visits? Page views?

Thanks Brian. Who needs spell check.

Brian Hornback's picture

Make No

mistake, I post under my name only.

I never made the comment that I do not make errors or mistakes. I was simply pointing out to CBT that he should refrain from throwing stones at me when he makes similar mistakes (post for most) while he is living in a glass house.

I am finished with this thread and you will hear from me when I feel so inclined. I will not be BH or some other name. I will be Brian Hornback.

Thanks for your interest and have a nice day.

Rachel's picture

I am finished with this

I am finished with this thread and you will hear from me when I feel so inclined. I will not be BH or some other name. I will be Brian Hornback.

Oh, hell, it's just too easy. Never mind.

redmondkr's picture

And Phluuut!, you were

And Phluuut!, you were gone.


Come See Us at

The Hill Online

rocketsquirrel's picture

oopsie.

heh. or is that oopsy?

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