I went to the public hearing;it lasted for 31/2 to 4 hours.There was alot talked about;stormwater,schools,tennis courts,libraries,non profits,jail overcrowding.This did not come up till the end.If it's what the N-S focused on,thats fine.But it was not the only thing talked about.

Commissioner Pinkston was looking into the what the Ragsdale folks admit was a mistake,the travel pay
line item.He had a report of all the credit card receipts for the last month;per the folks working for Ragsdale.

The bone of contention was it appeared that folks were
misusing the county credit cards for personal use;not county bidness ie using the card to buy lunch for themselves & friends while in town;for example;Arms bought Pinkston lunch @ Riverside Tavern.Treating themselves @ Smoothie King.Charges on Sunday;buying computer stuff @ the Apple store.The beat kept going on & on.

No matter what one thinks of the present make up of commission;this aint good & needs to be looked into.
The Mayor's office CAN NOT...CAN NOT be using the TAX PAYERS
MONEY for PERSONAL USE...period!!!

This did not come up till the end.If it's what the N-S focused on,thats fine.But it was not the only thing talked about.

I wondered about that. Thanks. The paper and TV news reports make it sound like that was all that was discussed. I guess it's the most newsworthy/sensational.

The Mayor's office CAN NOT...CAN NOT be using the TAX PAYERS MONEY for PERSONAL USE...period!!!

I think everyone would agree on that.

Here are some previous budget questions posted here by Mark Harmon (and one from me):

(link...)

(link...)

(link...)

(link...)

Were any of these discussed? Maybe Mark Harmon will have time to update us on the rest of the story...

Randy, the difference in what's on your bills and the county's is it's your money and not mine (and that of every other taxpayer). I'm peeved over this whole travel money mess. Please note that not only does every dime turned in get reimbursed (or just charged to a county credit card and paid), but a number of employees also get 'travel pay' of anywhere from a few thousand to as much as $20,000. This appears to be nothing more than play money. According to John Werner he used his for cigars.

I don't mind a reasonable county vehicle for those on county business. I don't mind reasonable and necessary travel expenses (with documentation). I don't even mind a small stipend to cover local travel expenses so employees don't have to turn in every 10 mile trip to Halls. But, this travel pay which increases local salaries to some of the highest in the state (in some cases more than the Governor himself) should not be passed over as business as usual.

I was writing the comment before posting,I re read the front
page so edited out the cable bill because I thought I had
"gotten pumped up & misread the orginal post" I didnt want to rant & do a "never mind".

The thing is the commission is charged with the appropriation of all monies spent.Like deep throat said
Follow the money.Commissioner Pinkston did.Said that if these folks worked for him they would be fired.

Its not good.

Commissioner Mark Harmon left before the credit card turmoil hit the fan.I'm sure he watched on TV.

The KNS article says "The credit card expenses dominated the commission's agenda during a public hearing on the budget..."

Which is probably where I got the idea that's all they talked about.

As Randy knows,I've got the political jones & unlike Al
I'm not in recovery.

What I dont like & cant stand is after hitting up folks for money tellin 'em its about us not me;campaigning for more than a year telling voters that it's not about me;its about the people.On election night,thanking folks for giving up their time to help in the cause of good government

Then after a few years starting whining about how much they could make if they worked in the real world.I'm not getting paid market value.

When you hear that start looking for schemes to get more money.They feel its their right because working for the people is costing them money.

In the real world the pay check dont come if you dont make money.You cant just spend money wily nily.

In the gubmint world the check comes every two weeks.
No matter what you do.

Gubmint work is good if you can get it.

Out of curiosity -- what are city/county ethics guidelines for picking up tabs?

The reason that I ask is because it really depends on the context of the payment.

As a professional who does a considerable amount of trade with the State gov, I can't pay for so much as a stick of gum for a state employee. The Tennessee ethics code is unequivocal on that. It's all about "appearance of impropriety," and my corporate policy is even stricter than the states. I have a friend who works for an agency that regulates my business (and we became friends prior to her employment there), and she just had a baby. Technically, my wife isn't allowed to give her anything at this child's shower.

The same rule probably doesn't apply to government officials out with other government officials, but I'm unclear as to what a government official would be doing picking up the tab for a vendor or a lobbyist.

I go out for dinner maybe once a month with my wife and another couple, and we easiy drop $300 or $400, depending on the venue and depending on the quality and quantity of the wine consumed. I've been on business dinners before and had vendors pick up tabs which I know had to exceed $1000 (after dinner, drinks, and outings are considered). Anyone shocked that a business dinner for 4 can exceed $300 probably hasn't ever done business worth much. Those expenses are normal & customary.

That said, it's not simply a question of the amount. The context in which those payments were rendered is key. On that basis, I'd say that the meal charges are "not enough info to discuss."

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

That said, it's not simply a question of the amount. The context in which those payments were rendered is key. On that basis, I'd say that the meal charges are "not enough info to discuss."

Yes, I agree that county officials should not be picking up the tab for vendors, or the other way around.

But I would think that some community/business development situations require wining and dining site selection consultants or business executives to put out the red carpet and discuss what a great place this would be to relocate.

Another legitimate scenario might be "employee appreciation" dinners/parties for department staff.

But I don't know what the guidelines are, or what the circumstances are for the various charges being scrutinized, and apparently neither does anybody else. So definitely more info is needed.

As a professional who does a considerable amount of trade with the State gov, I can't pay for so much as a stick of gum for a state employee. The Tennessee ethics code is unequivocal on that. It's all about "appearance of impropriety," and my corporate policy is even stricter than the states. I have a friend who works for an agency that regulates my business (and we became friends prior to her employment there), and she just had a baby. Technically, my wife isn't allowed to give her anything at this child's shower.

That said, it's not simply a question of the amount. The context in which those payments were rendered is key. On that basis, I'd say that the meal charges are "not enough info to discuss."

It's nice to hear that someone who "trades" with the government has so much money to throw around. I don't know which is more enraging: R. Neal's "the cost of doing business" cliche, or "it's not simply a question of the amount," comment.

Perhaps you would both do well to ask any of your working class friends, if you have any, how many groceries $300 or $200 would buy.

And perhaps R.Neal could answer what business is he talking about when he says "the cost of doing business?"

Besides, we're not talking about business, this is supposed to be about public service. Or is it only about public service when you're criticizing Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and Haliburton or the opposition?

So, Gary, I take it you are opposed to the State of Tennessee giving Nissan $200 million to relocate their U.S. headquarters here.

Or the City of Knoxville giving TIFs to any developer who drives a stake in the ground downtown, or giving restaurants free rent on high-dollar riverfront property?

Or Knox County giving $400K or so in TIFs to get the Crimson Bldg. rebuilt? Or funding for Jobs Now!, the Chamber Partnership, and various PILOT programs?

Commissioner Trammel brought that up,last night.

I believe its the Chamber's role to wine & dine
prospective bidness not the gubmint OR EMPLOYEES
of the gubmint.

Arms said on WBIR that when he picked up the tab he wrote down folk's names on the back of the bill.That dont get it & it's how it came to pass that he had bought Commissioner Pinkston's lunch @ Riverside Tavern.The Commissioner was not amused.

Andy said it best "even the appearence of impropriety" is what you have to have as THE GUIDELINE!!

Gentlemen, gentlemen please.

Both the mayor's office and the commission suck. It's not either or in my opinion.

So, Gary, I take it you are opposed to the State of Tennessee giving Nissan $200 million to relocate their U.S. headquarters here.

Or Knox County giving $400K or so in TIFs to get the Crimson Bldg. rebuilt? Or funding for Jobs Now!, the Chamber Partnership, and various PILOT programs?

If it gives a return on the investment, no. If it doesn't, or it's not expected to, yes.

I realize that it's a gray area. No doubt about it. What concerns me is the apparent ease in which the credit cards are used. When public officials are alledgedly using public funds for personal use, it's a problem.

If the wining and dining is to attract private business development to the county, then there should be a fund set up to draw upon when the outing concerns economic development. The funds need to be authorized and allocated from a specific source, rather than just charging it to the county. That way, there wouldn't be the perception that has developed since last night that in addition to a decent salary, a county employee has a county credit card with very few strings attached.

Gary, I pretty much agree with all of that. And that everyone should be on per-diem for out-of-town travel, and any dinners/entertainment should be pre-approved. And if employees are abusing county credit cards for personal use, they should have to pay it all back and not be allowed to have credit cards.

Bill Young brings up an interesting point that the C of C is supposed to be doing the wining and dining. Is that the rule?

So back to Betty's question (and yours, and Andy's), what ARE the rules and the legitimate reasons for a county employee to charge meals on a county credit card, especially locally? If there aren't any it sounds like there should be.

I've been to Mortons, the Palm, Ruth's Chris and a number of other Nashville joints. Same for Memphis and other cities. I know those places cost money. But, it's the total scenario. $45,000 loaded SUV's on the government's tab (when a Impala or Taurus would suffice), Werner saying he bought expensive cigars with his money and now the questions over the county credit cards. And on top of all that Knox County taxpayers are being asked to fund close to a half million dollars in just 'play money' in addition to reimbursing every dime spent (at Morton's, the Lunchbox, hotels...whatever and whenever).

First we hear, well we shouldn't have seperated it, we'll just lump it into salaries. Huh? Folks, it doesn't matter what dress you put on this pig, it's still a pig.

I don't care who's on the 6th floor. This is wrong. Any Commissioner who votes for this without change shouldn't be allowed to manage the public's money.

lump it into salaries

Indeed, wonder what Ragsdale's tax returns show for that $20K travel allowance?

WBIR has the credit card statement in question:

(link...)

(Apparently this is only 10 pages of 80)

That comcast charge reeks to high heaven.

And what about the recurring charges made to the Chamber for $125 a pop?

R. Neal-

If you're asking if government officials should be wining and dining prospective industry... I think it's a tough question. Relatively speaking, I think we have to compete with Alabama or Greenville Co., South Carolina for major industry, and I think that includes government leaders doing the lobbying, along with the C of C.

In the perfect world, I'd rather it not be done, but I'm not against it in the real world. It's like the conservatives call for smaller government. It's illogical to think government can downsize, as the public it serves increases in size, both locally and nationally.

My opinion on both government operations and campaign financing is full disclosure. Admit it when mistakes are made. Reimburse where necessary, and simply restrict the use of credit cards. The abuse of credit cards in government is a recurring theme. The DOD and FEMA in Louisiana just to name a couple of instances. Just limit their use.

(link...)

OK, have just scanned through it. 99% of it looks legit to me.

The highly publicized Nashville dinners are I bet lobbying by Ragsdale for one thing or another. There's been some hot issues, BEP, AT&T bill, etc. I'd bet there's no rule against Ragsdale wining and dining a legislator, or even a lobbyist.

Some of these small amounts for lunch look fishy. Not sure why people can't buy their own lunch. Maybe people had to work through lunch and the boss sent out? Who knows. That probably needs to be explained.

Local hotel stays and dinners probably need explaining, too.

The Beverly Hills Hilton charge has already been explained in the paper, I believe.

The Comcast charge needs to be explained.

The huge amount for one statement period doesn't sound all that unreasonable, because it looks like they are running just about every minor expenditure (and a couple of major ones) and travel expenses through a credit card account instead of a complicated accounts payable/reimbursement system. Nothing wrong with that, is there? They get good records. Seems like smart business. As long as it's managed and controlled of course.

Not sure there is any big smoking gun here, but I could be wrong...

To me, the small things are just as aggregious. That demonstrates(again to me) willful disregard for the public. It's like saying "No one will notice if I put this smoothie on the card."

Also, once a person who spends other people's money for a living gets used to small excesses, that makes it easier the next time, then on to a larger purchases and so forth. Before long it's out of control.

Re: the Comcast...

Does the city promote telework at all? Some employers will pay for cable/DSL subscriptions.

Just a thought.

____________________________

I'm a guy in a Reagan mask -- and I'm running for President!

Folks: Larry Van Guilder has cracked the code! The fellow drinking that $7.67 Smoothie King on April 12 was none other than the Finance Director himself -- John Werner. He's also the one who spent $54.63 at the Apple Store in the mall on a Sunday -- when the county uses only PCs. -- s.

Comcast charge is to pay for internet service at the Senior Citizen Centers. The Waste Management charge is for trash pick-up at one of the Senior Citizen Center.

The $719,000.00 over 5 weeks is for charges on all county cards.Last night Mike Reeves of Knox County said there are hundreds of cards, most have limitations for purchases. Of the most recent monthly activity included items like the Health Department purchasing needed medication for Knox County citizens.

Some charges included purchasing dog food at Wal-Mart for the drug K-9 dogs.

It cost nearly 5 times as much to purchase needed supplies for Knox County citizens using the P.O. system -vs- the cards.

See? I figured there would be explanations for a lot of this.

What you don't see with a credit card statement is all the journal entries of how the stuff gets categorized against what budget, which approvals, inter-departmental settlements, etc.

But all these lunches (and Smoothies) still need to be explained.

And I haven't read the employee handbook yet on what the rules are.

P.S. And the other point is, that there has probably been better airing of all this and more information discussed here today than the sensational piece in the paper based on "explosive!" (Terry Frank) documents "leaked" to the press.

But then again, county credit cards, gas cards, travel accounts, etc. should not be taxpayer funded perks and free lunches for county employees.

But once that .01% of the budget abuse is thoroughly investigated, then maybe they can move on to the $6 million shortfall in the school budget and what results the Great Schools project gets with the money instead, just as one example.

might not amount to much of the budget, but as far as I'm concerned it represents an awful lot of the culture that's spending the rest of the budget.

I think this whole debate over whether or not it's OK to wine and dine sort of sums up the problem with government these days, be it GOP or Dem--it's the folks that own both groups that call the shots. The little guy has only a token voice (and that voice is used to add credibility to whatever when it is convenient to the machine). It's the money that calls the shots. Sad.

and the others should be providing free service to government facilities as a part of their local franchise agreements. Then the credit cards wouldn't come into question. Guess we forgot to wine and dine them?

The chamber's job is to talk up knoxville/knox county.
When prospects come to town;show em around;put on the Ritz.
Sure the Mayor & the elected folks should be at the party.

But the real job of the city,the county & the state is to get the infra structure package together.Because when the rubber meets the road;prospects arent swayed by a free lunch
they are swayed by what this community can offer them for the future of their company.

I don't care if the county uses credit cards. It probably has it's place. But, that doesn't explain close to $500,000 in extra 'travel money'. When you combine that 'play money' with reimbursing every single item of travel expense (and/or paying the charges on the cards) it stinks.

Expensive meals, cigars, luxury SUV's, thousands in 'travel money' to spend as you wish...I'm glad Knox County taxpayers are able to keep our government officials in the lifestyle to which they have grown accustomed.

Throw out all the travel money (heck, Commission could send the half mil over to the schools). Set a small local travel stipend for those who travel as part of their regular duties. Out of county travel has to be documented. And, set a reasonable budget for purchasing county employee vehicles.

It's clear the 'spin' is that there may be an innocent mistake here or there or it's just a few dollars. Look at the forest, not the trees. It's the whole picture of how county money is being spent.

WBIR has a response from the Mayor's office:

(link...)

See my updated commentary at the end of the original post.

I have been impressed with your ability to manage your reaction to this story.

Certainly, individuals (S.Clark and CBT) that dislike the Mayor and have a political ax to grind with him and his administration were trying to pour gas on the flames of a non story. If anything is/was not right, the Mayor and Mr. Arms will fix it and if any people acted inappropriately with their county issued cards, they will be dealt with.

Well, I hate to get caught defending a politician, and that's not the intent. The bottom line is politicians can't be trusted with taxpayer money, even Democrats! That's why there has to be oversight, and unfortunately it seems there's always politics involved.

I don't buy the argument that a $644 dinner gets you
$12,000,000 in additional school funding for Knox County.

The BEP originated from a ruling of the lower courts;upheld by the Supreme Court concerning"rural school equity issues."
It became known as the large school/small school suit.

The rural/small schools felt the funding formula,based on situs sales tax collection(where the tax was collected ie West Towne vs downtown Sneedville),was inherently unfair becuse of the constitutional requirement that state monies spent,on education,be spent for the "equal benifit of all the people."
The courts ruled for the small schools.

This suit lead to the '92 BEP school funding package & has been in litagation ever since.As time went on,the Senate & the House,in reaction to court mandates piled quick fix upon quick fix.The quick fixes were,well quick fixes,that did not remedy the funding problem.In fact the burden of the equity issue shifted to the large schools ie Knox County.

People,all across the state,after 15 years,said enough of these lawsuits lets get our house in order.Senator Woodson was & is a leader in this effort.

The reformed BEP passed with monies from a cigarette tax to fund it.

I don't think an expensive dinner had anything to with it.

The way I see it,the free lunch crowd down in Nashville got to eat good on the Knox County tax payers dime.

It's time to put an end to the free lunch crowd in Nashville
& Knox County!!

"If anything is/was not right, the Mayor and Mr. Arms will fix it and if any people acted inappropriately with their county issued cards, they will be dealt with."

Whew! I feel better already :)

Insider Hornback...I don't dislike the Mayor. I've contributed to his campaigns (want to compare donations?), appeared on radio and TV and praised many of the Mayor's initiatives, among other support. I have had some disagreements, mostly with one or two in the Mayor's office. Of course, that does affect the Mayor, but that's largely beyond my control.

You wouldn't understand and at least one in the Mayor's office doesn't get it, but with me it's about right and wrong, not politics. Harber...wrong. Threatening me...wrong. "Travel money" (aka 'play money') given without any accountability and paying the highest salaries in the state...also wrong, I don't care who's in the Mayor's office. Remove your nose and maybe you can get some perspective.

Someone ought to compare the city travel expenditures. What you will find is amazing. If the KNS would do it's job, it'd be on the front page tomorrow.

CBT

what is .04% x 715,537.51??
Is that how much lunch money the Mayor's staff gets?

Just asking per Sunday N-S.

$286?

(I agree there should be no free lunch unless they are on out-of-town travel.)

Lower? Try almost zero. They charge few meals and let the paid lobbyist do the work they pay him for in Nashville.

I received a threatening email from Hornback, complete with copy to Mike Arms. Hornback claims he's not 007 and doesn't post on Knoxviews. If he's not, I should apologize. But, it certainly seems 007 knows how to get the message to Hornback.

I won't post his email or my...terse...response. But, as I recall, the KNS has no qualms about pubishing private emails.

commenting goes off topic and begins to center on Hornback. Maybe the anti Hornback crowd should start a permanent thread bashing the only former Republican Chairman to win every race except for Mark Harmon's victory.

Who could 007 be?

It's about being honest

was a job that three people actually fought for in March to take the Chairman position. Hornback announced in 2005 that he would only serve 1 term to get the party back in a winning position during elections. He affirmed that decision in December 2006 in announcing that he would not seek and if selected would not serve.

The eventual winner of teh contested Chairman election was aware of the budget and money on hand as she held the position of First Vice-Chair. She was on the Committee that accepted the lowest bid for the printing of the roster book in 2005, however, the rumor circulating presently is that she did not accept the low bid this year. She is awarding the job to a higher bidder, which is contrary to statements that she made to Sandra Clark at the Halls meeting.

The budget should be passed Thursday.

1.End all credit cards & travel allowances for the Mayor & staff.

2.Create a fund to cover all monies formerly spent in this regard.For compensation,The Mayor & staff must show receipts to the finance committee for approval.

3.Mayor or staff can't pick up the tab,for meals, on the county dime.

I have sent an e-mail to all county commissioners reflecting this post

Your suggestions are correct. These folks are making enough money to afford their own breakfast and lunch. -- s.