This stuff just never goes away, does it?

It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

How tragic.

[preempting the inevitable gun nuttery…]

Yes, I know.

Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people. Guns just make the bullets go very fast.

[/preemption]

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

maybe if Lumpy was there , he coulda took him out before he got to anyone.......

sad news..... :(

WE need our President to be an example of moral leadership and publicly vilify people who take innocent lives. Ok, maybe a Vice president, then?...I guess we're down to the House Majority Leader...Fair enough.

What social change will America have to make in order for this kind of gut wrenching outrage to be damned forever in our social fabric? Somehow I'm thinking giving everyone the proper caliber to shoot back is not the answer, but I'll bet we hear that as a suggestion.

Damn, I hurt for those people! Just the parental nightmare of wondering even for a moment if your child...

I was going to make a point about this not being the time to argue gun politics, but after seeing this post, I use the opportunity to argue war politics.

Larry C Johnson points out that today at least 65 people were killed due to violence in Iraq. In other words, American's deadliest day of shootings would be just another day in Baghdad.

And yet morons on TV ruminating about the tremendous progress being made . . . .

Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.

If you follow the premise that smallpox doesn't kill, people kill, you must conclude that getting smallpox, passing it along, or dying from it is your fault and all other victims fault.

False logic, for the same reason that an undiagnosed HIV infection is not always the fault of either individual included -- people may not have reason to know they or other individuals are carriers, or even if they did check, the necessary symptoms would not show up immediately. Giving any guilt to the victim unless the victim willingly exposed themselves to obvious sources is just idiotic.

I think the difference is pretty obvious to anyone with a functioning brainstem; guns don't go off by themselves, while smallpox and most other infectious diseases do.

If someone's been killed with a gun, it's not because the killer didn't know he picked it up and decided to shake hands. It's not because the victim decided to expose themselves to people known to carry guns (in fact, such situations tend to be very safe; I'm unaware of any shooting sprees at an NRA convention). It's because someone pointed a gun at them, and pointed the trigger.

Knives make excellent weapons, but when someone cuts another person, it's not because of the knife. It's because of the person. Knives don't sit in drawers and in Wal-Mart plotting mass murder. Electrical capacitors make excellent weapons, but when someone kills another person with one, it's not because of the capacitor (unless Americans everywhere have managed to resist the siren's call of the computer PSU as a killer taser).

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

Oh, and using a tragedy to further your political agenda before the death toll hasn't even been tallied completely is just sick.

The gun control debate has nothing to do with what happened. It seems likely that most of the deaths occurred in one or two classrooms. Nobody could have arrived in time to "save" the victims. On the other hand, as a college professor I would walk out of the room if I knew that my students were armed. What I say may piss them off on any given day. Being armed is not conducive to open and critical learning. The answer is better building security. Somebody entered the building who should not have been there, and he was heavily armed. Sadly, this means that a public university has to be guarded instead of open to the public.

Actually, though, the better lesson is that there is no lesson. Just as there was no cosmic lesson from Columbine either except that kids are cruel to each other and some of them lash out with self-destructive violence. That's probably what happened here too. Unfortunately we are about to be subjected to a series of pseudo-sociological theories about why violence is "rampant" when it is so out of the ordinary. Here's the political statement of the day then: you want to see violence out of control? Go to Iraq. Even after the tragedy at Virginia Tech, campuses are some of the safest places in America.

But it's OK for gun rights activits to have already been saying there wouldn't have been a problem except for strict laws that prevented students with CCW permits to go armed on campus so they could defend themselves?

Do you care to actually show where I even suggested that? The note was for all sides here.

And guns do go off by themselves and smallpox has been used as a weapon.

Guns don't "go off by themselves". I could sit a 1911 on a counter here, and if no one touched it it would be dust before a single round fired, even if I left the safety off. Short of [i]extremely[/i] poor care or someone pulling the trigger, guns don't fire, both of which I'd consider far from "by themselves".

If you'd prefer to continue this course, we can describe every item in your home which has been used as a weapon and can go off by itself, suggest that you call the police to get these deadly vectors taken away, but I don't think this is a particularly pertinent time or place.

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

Actually, though, the better lesson is that there is no lesson. Just as there was no cosmic lesson from Columbine either except that kids are cruel to each other and some of them lash out with self-destructive violence. That's probably what happened here too. Unfortunately we are about to be subjected to a series of pseudo-sociological theories about why violence is "rampant" when it is so out of the ordinary.

Get ready for the attack of the talking heads.

Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.

I hate to say this but it's beginning to look like that we need tighter gun control legislation. Maybe limit the amount of amo any one person can have in their possession. I also think anyone who has committed such atrocities should have their names removed from all records and the news organizations shouldn't be allowed to make public spectacles of the incidences by over broadcasting it, and they also shouldn't be allowed to mention the shooters name either.

Let's not let these villains feel as if they will become famous in death for committing these horrendous crimes.

Adrift in the Sea of Humility

Maybe limit the amount of am[m]o any one person can have in their possession.

Because, you know, limiting the amount of sudafed anyone can have in their possession has done wonders to combat drug use, and no one has ever been in a situation where they might want more than fourty or fifty bullets (:hinthint, every single rifle match, any plinking, self-defense:).

I also think anyone who has committed such atrocities should have their names removed from all records and the news organizations shouldn't be allowed to make public spectacles of the incidences by over broadcasting it, and they also shouldn't be allowed to mention the shooters name either.

Because, hey, when you've tossed the Second Amendment away like an old newspaper, why bother stopping there when you can kill parts of the First?

...using a tragedy to further your political agenda before the death toll hasn't even been tallied completely is just sick.

Oh?

Spare me.

I was going to make a point about this not being the time to argue gun politics

It wasn't the time to discuss race and income inequality during late August of 2005 as the Katrina relief effort dragged on and on. It wasn't time to discuss civil liberties as the TIPS program started, or as the eavesdropping program was revealed, or as the president unilaterally declared that your mail is subject to sneak & peek. It wasn't a good time to discuss electoral irregularities as the most corrupt presidential administration in American history was being inaugurated. It wasn't a good time to discuss the ideological future of the Supreme Court while Alito's nomination went on. It's not a good time to discuss campaign finance reform as every chiseler, hustler, and swindler on the block is stuffing money into every available orifice to get their guys (& occasional gals) elected. Et cetera, ad nauseum. And yeah, it kinda makes me sick.

Turns out there's never a good time.

But you can rest assured that the NRA rapid response team is formulating their talking points as we speak.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Once again, there are no answers to this tragedy. This will likely end up as some mentally deranged man - possibly a disgruntled grad student, a spurned lover, a paranoid schizo in the area, etc. - who went on a horrific rampage. Gun control would not have stopped this. Neither would a fully armed campus. Get over all the BS policy provisions that will "save lives." They won't. This sort of atrocity comes along now and then in the modern world. Our job is to help the unfortunate people who suffered through these bouts of pointless violence, or their family members who must grieve lost loved ones. We need to cope and heal, not try to "correct" something that cannot be corrected - or even identified. Sometimes the absurd crimes are the worst. Let's accept the absurdity on its face and deal with the uncertainty as caring human beings. That's how we live.

What a sad day for America. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Elrod is right, there's no explaining it, never will be.

But we live in a culture of violence. We are taught that violence is a solution to any problem from a very young age. We glorify thugs and violence and murder and murderers in literature, music, movies, television and our new-age leisure pursuits such as video games. Even our most popular sport, football, is based on a military approach to problem solving that involves violence against one another to gain and hold ground by projection of force. We condone state-sanctioned murder as retribution for crimes. We elect thugs to political office and have a president who feels honored to fulfill his destiny as a War President and to impose "democracy" at gunpoint. What a fine Christian example For the Children. And we wonder what The Problem is.

And the sad fact is, this monster in Virginia probably acquired his legal guns and ammo legally and was in possession of them legally until he stepped into the lecture hall with them and started shooting. Or got them from someone who got them legally. But By God it was his God and Charlton Heston Given Right to possess those guns and ammo right up until that point. Meanwhile, possession of a joint will land you in jail, even if you never light it.

But that's not relevant, and even suggesting that such a thing might be worthy of rational debate in a civilized society means you are a fascist out to shred the Constitution and deny the collective People's fundamental God Given Rights, and besides, he could have had a baseball bat or a knife and still been able to kill at least, like, 20 people.

But let's not bring any rational thinking into the political debate about our Culture of Violence, otherwise the 2nd Amendment pornographers will have to step out of their fantasy world of muzzle velocity and foot-pounds of impact energy and wound channel theory and castle doctrine rhetoric into the physical, emotional, real world of human pain and suffering and death in order to use their guns to protect their right to use their guns against those who threaten their Constitutional Right to use their guns to protect their right to use their guns, or something. Just like that guy did today.

In the mean time, perhaps it's time for them to justify how or why this guy had access to enough 2nd Amendment firepower to kill 32 innocent university students trying to make a better life for themselves.

There is also evidence that the monster may have studied Columbine. Well, he certainly bested their record and raised the bar, didn't he? He'll be a new cult hero to thousands of twisted little deviants-in-the-making who are products of our Culture of Violence just waiting to be the next monster who goes out in a blaze of glory to inspire the next one who will be even more spectacular than the last but not as spectacular as the next and so on.

And you just never know who it will be, do you? He could be sitting right next to you in class, on the bus, in your office, in the next stall at the firing range...

What a sad day for America. And sadly, it's not likely to ever change.

I have so much I could say in response, but I am so completely outraged by the days events (from the substance-free coverage to the inconsequential presidential response to the moralistic finger-wagging of gun 'advocates') that it's best if I don't.

That said: One of your best summary posts, Mr. Neal.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Diary from Kos

Yes, much like fear of eternal damnation prevents Baptists from getting naked and high on crack with a gay prostitute.

Then we get wingnut logic:

If just one person there had been armed, the shooter could possibly have been stopped sooner....

As I posted at TBogg's place:

I am imagining a campus full of guys packing heat. The first guy shoots his girlfriend and then starts on others. Then some guy sees him shooting, and so he starts shooting. Others see the second guy shooting and so with glee they begin shooting at him. Soon hundreds of guys with Wal-Mart jeans and camo shirts are all shooting at each other. Nobody knows who is a good guy and who is a bad guy, unless they have an orange hat on and even then, who knows. Bystanders are taken down in waves. Hundreds die! Most from badly aimed bullets. It is carnage. Then all the gun blogs can post about many more would have died if everybody wasn't allowed to pack heat.

This is a sad day. More guns do not make it better.

...much truth:

You might believe that an unfettered constitutional right to bear arms is embedded in the constitution (a belief I actually share) but it's just wrong to downplay what a lethal goddamned right it is. Nobody wants to hear sermons about how many fewer kids would have been shot to death today on that campus if only there had been more guns around.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

David Horowitz and his neo-Maoist cadre of "revolutionaries" descends on Rutgers. You are labeled a traitor and summarily executed by mob of your students licensed for CCW at mid-term. Participants receive A's. There is no curve.

Michelle Malkin sees a silhouette of the Blessed Virgin in the gore and spatter on the classroom whiteboard.

Glenn Reynolds links to a press release from JWR, saying only, "Heh."

LGF sponsors a national moment of masturbation in honor of Horowitz, thereby layering a thickened crust of dried semen upon their acolytes.

Bill Hobbs dedicates 1500 words to the National Day of Anti-Islamofascist Orgasm.

Bill Hobbs' sockpuppet, bearing the guise of an actual journalism advocacy organization, submits Hobbs (that is to say, himself) for Pulitzer consideration.

#9 squeals, grunts. Posts something sub-pithy, buried in comments at NashvilleIsTalking.com in an avalanche started by "Satorifartblast."

SayUncle goes to the frig and pops himself a cold one. A smile crosses his face.

Death.

LesJones says, "Markets!"

Neil Young.

Death.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Read an analysis of the influences in our "Chain Letter Society" that may be precipitating events like the tragedy at Virginia Tech and how our focus on winning and being number one may be fostering a generation of children with fully inadequate coping skills who have a misguided sense of self-worth...here:

www.thoughttheater.com

I have been tracking this story all day and it has left me exhausted and numb. It has left me with more questions than answers. It has left me at a loss as to how I can have a positive impact in my community let alone in the world. We always think "it can never happen here" but time and time again we are proven wrong. It can happen here and yet few people seem interested in getting involved in bettering our world. You would be hard pressed to even manage to get a hand full of parents to show up to a meeting to address drugs in the local highschool let alone change the world.

I am usually the optimistic one spouting quotes such as Margaret Meads "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." and most days I truly believe that but tonight I am left wondering if indeed we can make a difference. I hope that for the sake of the victime of this horrific event the quote stands true and that this community can come together and rise above.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families as I turn in this evening I can think only of the young lives cut short and the grieving families left behind. I can think only of those families who have not yet been notified and must be going absolutely insane with worry and fear. I think of those who are left with only tears and questions. I hope that in the coming days these families get their answers, justice and closure.

Tina D. Shang
Rogersville Online
New site will officially launch May 1, 2007

That "firepower" has been identified as a .22 and a 9 mm. No evil black rifles, no high powered armor piercing rounds, no cop-killers. It's not the size of the gun, or the ammo; it's the desire of the man who pulls the trigger.

Just be grateful that he did not have an assault weapon which can many times be easily modified to shoot on full automatic. If he had, the death count could be in the hundreds and there would be some Senators and Congressmen coming after your toys. Although I sometimes wonder which the NRA loving right would feel more bad about.

While waiting for a Business Law class at U of Ctrl FL to start, a student was so mad at the prof (it was a hard class), she (yes, she) said out loud she's thinking about going to her car and getting her gun (to use on him). This was at least 10 years ago.

I, in my reactive way, immediately jumped on her verbally, telling her to never speak that way, even in jest. Yes, there were other students in the room. I told her I should report her to the campus cops. She apologized and said she wasn't serious. But, then, everyone in the room knew to keep an eye on her.

Some call me paranoid, non-trusting. I call me trying to be safe. We must all be vigilant, be aware. Speak up. It's not always a joke.

I haven't read up on the finer details, even if they are out there, but is it safe to assume this was a case where maybe a gun was bought the day of or day before the rampage took place? That could make a good case for waiting periods before purchase, especially for first time gun owners.

Long time gun owners are usually very responsible gun owners, it seems it's the people who have never fired one but know they can run out and buy one in the heat of the moment that can cause the most harm to society.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the VT suspect was not a previous gun owner and may have made just such a quick purchase. I'm not sure if the details of how the gun acquired are available as of yet, if anyone finds them post them here.

There are ways around any law, but a waiting period and background check on first time gun owners doesn't seem to be too out of line in my mind.

There are ways around any law, but a waiting period and background check on first time gun owners doesn't seem to be too out of line in my mind.

Virginia is an "Insta-Check" state. They used to have a 7-day waiting period.

Just sayin'.

As of the latest reports, even though we still don't have his name, we hear that he is an immigrant, here on a student visa, which means he can't legally possess a gun.

You might want to wait before using this as an affirmative defense. Latest latest reports state that this person may have been a permanent resident. That's would be a different story than a visa.

Per MSNBC this morning, the early report came from the fact that there was a cell phone located near the body of the perpetrator, but apparently that phone belonged to one of the victims.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

Oh, and using a tragedy to further your political agenda before the death toll hasn't even been tallied completely is just sick.

However, Bush has already announced that he will go to the funeral.

Guns don't "go off by themselves".

Better ask Bob Barr about that.

It's interesting that the media approach last night was to make the story about school and law enforcement officials not doing enough to prevent it.

Today's big, bold, top of the fold front page headline in the KNS says "Blood on their hands" (quoting a student) with the subhead questioning if officials did enough.

But curiously, of the interviews with students I have seen so far, the cable news reporters could not get any of them to say they were upset with the authorities' handling of the situation, and some say they think school officials did all they could do given the circumstances and information available at the time.

It's interesting that the media approach last night was to make the story about school and law enforcement officials not doing enough to prevent it.

Yeah. What a shock. Inventing (and blaming) more victims.

We are all favored with this brand of "Nancy Grace journalism" every day.

Today's big, bold, top of the fold front page headline in the KNS says "Blood on their hands" (quoting a student) with the subhead questioning if officials did enough.

Apropos of media cluelessness, not of this story: The head on the Sunday Tennessean this week was, "CAN YOUR PRIVATE LIFE RUIN YOUR JOB?"

Priorities.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

The shooter, by all reports so far, was not a resident alien. He was a temporary alien on a student visa. The difference is crucial.

He was a permanent legal alien.

In other words, you have two choices: LIVE FREE OR DIE!!!!!!

"Sources say Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol."

Of course, this too may turn out to be more misinformation and rumor being tossed about by the wingnuts. But it suggests the weapon was purchased legally, and recently.

The wingnuts and gun nuts, including a law professor, are hyperventilating about the violation of "gun free school zone" laws in the Virginia Tech case to argue we already have enough gun laws.

Federal law: "The term 'school' means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law."

Virginia law: "[long list of stuff not allowed on] the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds"

Hmmm, so apparently firearms are not illegal on college or university campuses under either state or federal law. But I am not a lawyer, so somebody check me on that.

Obviously, VT or any other college or university may have policies, and probably do. But policy is not law. Can't put a guy in jail for violating a policy.

Yet enother loophole in our weak gun laws.

Cho was a permanent resident alien. He immigrated as a child and went to high school in Centreville. Does Virginia ban permanent resident aliens from possessing a CCW permit?

There was a very early press release yesterday--this was mentioned on Olbermann's show last night--from a pro-gun group who said that the whole thing could have been avoided if students were allowed to carry guns on campus and to classes. Just what this situation needed to reduce the body count--a crossfire!

McCain said:

We have to look at what happened here, but it doesn't change my views on the Second Amendment, except to make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad people.

That would be through gun control?

I do believe in the constitutional right that everyone has, in the Second Amendment to the Constitution, to carry a weapon. Obviously we have to keep guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens.

Sounds like he was pretty law-abiding until he decided to kill 30+ people. Don't we always hear the phrase "never been in trouble with the police before." Please, tell me how you suppose to do this. Do you have a minority report situation developing?

Among the dead:

Liviu Librescu. Holocaust survivor.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007

You obviously haven't read the second amendment which supercedes all other amendments. it says that you can keep and tote arms. Nothing about legs or purses is mentioned anywhere in the Constitution and neither is the right to Habeus Corpse.

I'm quite sure Cho did not have a CCW permit. This is what happened: Cho decided a month or so ago that he wanted to kill himself and a bunch of other people. So he want to a gun store in Roanoke and bought one legally. He passed the background check because he has no record. Then he kept the gun someplace - probably in his room. Then, yesterday, he decided to murder over 30 people and kill himself with it.

It's really that simple, and that tragic. He had no desire to possess a CCW permit because he wasn't going to tote it around with him "for protection." He probably never thought anybody would find it, but just in case he decided to file off the serial numbers (though that's still a bit odd - they proved via surveillance camera that he bought the guns at a store so why did he file the numbers off? Or is that a bogus account?)

End of the day: Cho wanted to kill. He didn't care about Tech's ban on guns or CCW laws. All he wanted was a gun so he could kill people and commit suicide. And he had no trouble obtaining one legally.

This is a one-off crazy event. He would pass any background check. He was a legal resident of the US with no criminal record. If he can prevented from owning a gun, anybody can.

The answer has nothing to do with guns - not banning them or giving them to students OK Corral style. The problem was that this increasingly paranoid, depressed loner meandered through life and nobody intervened to stop him or steer him back to sanity. I thought of the Jackson Browne song "Late for the Sky" today, which played in the movie Taxi Driver just as Travis Bickle loses his mind. Listen to that song again...it's chilling.

the shooter allegedly wrote as posted on AOL:

(link...)

Cho wanted to kill. He didn't care about Tech's ban on guns or CCW laws. All he wanted was a gun so he could kill people and commit suicide. And he had no trouble obtaining one legally.

That's all very true.

But it's time for some checks and balances to our gun culture of violence so the next Cho isn't able to get a gun so easily. (Apparently he lied on the paperwork, don't most states ask about mental problems and medication and stuff?)

And so there aren't so many illegal handguns on the street that are so easily available to kids and thugs and former felons who shouldn't have them.

And so mayors like Haslam who try to do something to keep them off the street aren't vilified in the press and on the blogs and worry about a handfull of gun nuts keeping them from getting reelected.

The fundamental fallacy being promoted is that a lift of gun bans and allowance of CCW on campuses is going to save lives.

Even granting that such measures would deter or mitigate incidents like that at VT (and I don't believe it would), such changes would cost far more lives through increased rates of suicide, accidents, and crimes of passion/stupidity than they would save. We just wouldn't hear about them on CNN.

Two Secret Service officers were injured on Tuesday after a gun held by another Secret Service officer accidentally fired inside the White House gate, according to a spokesman, Darrin Blackford. One officer suffered a shrapnel wound to the face, and the other was wounded in the leg.

Another one of those guns going off by themselves ("a gun held by another agent accidentally fired" instead of "another agent accidentally discharged his/her weapon").

Good words from VA's governor ...

<
"People who want to take this within 24 hours of the event and make it their political hobby horse to ride, I've got nothing but loathing for them,"
>
and I'd say for every 1 NRA guy in the news I have heard from about 10 folks who seem to be awaiting another Michael Moore documentary on the subject.

Ok, then..

Because words are for wimps; violence is for MEN!!!!!

Guns are for the weak, the cowardly, the scared, the ignorant.

Guns are the great equalizer. Except to the other guy.

Now back to hearing gun zealots equivocate, nuance, and parse how this is different and guns are wonderful, patriotic, and All-American.

Psychiatric care is expensive. Treat 'em and street 'em.

So, yet another chronic American issue is tangled up in this unfolding drama. Immigration. Guns and violence. And now, a health care system that turns dangerous psychopaths out on the street.

"WHAT A COUNTRY!"

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2007