Tue
Apr 10 2007
09:18 pm

It's been taken over by leftists and is no longer relevant to East Tennessee.

OK, then.

Topics:
192
like
jah's picture

*yawn* Oh, I'm sorry; did

*yawn*

Oh, I'm sorry; did somebody say something?

Rachel's picture

Oh, bulls**t.

Oh, bulls**t.

KTB's picture

Congrats! Does that mean we

Congrats! Does that mean we won't have to hear from CBT anymore?

KTB

metulj's picture

Chad, bless his pea pickin

Chad, bless his pea pickin heart, I hope is a trusted user.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

metulj's picture

Collectivists! True

Collectivists!

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Socialist With A Gold Card's picture

SKB, you may have finally

SKB, you may have finally found the secret incantation necessary to banish #9 back to the pits of the underworld: remind him this site doesn't belong to him.

Congratulations.

--Socialist With A Gold Card


"I'm a socialist with a gold card. I firmly believe we need a revolution; I'm just concerned that I won't be able to get good moisturizer afterwards." -- Brett Butler

CBT's picture

I'm still here and I suppose

I'm still here and I suppose a 'trusted user', since my posts still appear. I do wish for a bit more balance, meaning a few more moderate and/or conservative voices. It would be easier on folks like me given I don't have the time to address the posts, research and arguments put forth by a dozen or more folks. I also believe it would represent the community as a whole. But, it's Randy's site and KnoxViews can be whatever he wants it to be.

This is the only blog I read with any regularity. I don't post on any other blog, with a rare exception. I just don't have the time. It's certainly not because I find people who agree with me. I read this blog because it's interesting and no other local blog has the readership and participation of KnoxViews.

I've never been much for the 'dittos', where everyone just agrees with the others. That's boring. I would think some of the more liberal folks on this blog would tire of reading one side of the discussion. And, there is always more than one side.

cafkia's picture

ok

So, I pretty consistently test as a liberal leaning libertarian. I own guns and served ten years in the military. Until the reign of George the Moron, I considered myself a political independent. I've owned SUVs and lived in suburbia. Yet, I am a trusted user and presumably, one of the far left thinkers described in #9's brilliant analysis.

Is thinking now liberal and no one told me?

CAFKIA

----------------------------------------------------------- 

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

KTB's picture

Glad to know you're still

Glad to know you're still around CBT (and with a blog).

KTB

Factchecker's picture

Did somebody Say Uncle for freedom of one's blog? Geez!

I do wish for a bit more balance, meaning a few more moderate and/or conservative voices. ... I also believe it would represent the community as a whole.

The KNS and several local blogs have plenty of that slant, though I don't think it's done to best represent the community, nor should it be. Isn't it better not to just be an echo chamber for the political majority? Coddles ignorance, and we've got plenty of that in ET for the whole state.

It would be easier on folks like me given I don't have the time to address the posts, research and arguments put forth by a dozen or more folks.

If one doesn't have time to put work into their arguments, it reflects poorly on one's credibility. I have a life too (believe it or not!), but I'm not going waste my words if I'm too busy to back them up. I'm not going to say "trust me, but you all need to get a life." Please consider how condescending that can sound.

But I'm glad your here, CBT. As far as I'm concerned, 9 too. I can't imagine what made SayUnk go off. Things are never Fair and Balanced enough for some.

edens's picture

>I can't imagine what made

>I can't imagine what made SayUnk go off

Actually, it was Nine who posted it. He also posts (or double posts, mostly) on Uncle's blog.

I guess his attempt at CTV martyrdom wasn't drawing eyeballs anymore so he needed a new shtick.

Btw, what was that weird ass post of his that got pulled from the front page? I forget.

cafkia's picture

Uh, Reality check

I realize that time is a precious commodity for many folks CBT but, if you read some of the discussions that you do not comment on, you might notice that many of us who are allegedly on the same side, pretty frequently disagree. As a matter of fact, that is a well known hallmark of the liberal condition. We don't ditto. Anyone is only as good as their last argument. The fact that I am Rikki's friend makes me more likely to publically disagree with him, not less. There is not one person on this blog or, at the brewpub that I feel any hesitancy about disagreeing with. Hell, I will look for something to disagree with if there is nothing obvious. I expect accusations of all of us being on the same side from the idiot gallery but, you actually know many of us. You have participated in meat space discussions and if you would remember, you have seen/heard us disagree and discuss. Yes, we are somewhat addicted to facts and we do like followable logic but, we are not dittoheads for anyone, famous, obscure or inbetween.

Take a look at the recent political correctness thread. Take a look at the recent electoral college thread. Look at some of the Clinton comments by the liberals. There are things that we largely agree on, for instance, that Bush/Cheney used manufactured intel to start the Iraq war. We have argued among ourselves over whether they were fradulently installed. Why do you not notice all of that and more? "There is none so blind as he who will not see"

You don't have to or even need to agree with us but, you really ought to admit to yourself that the viewpoints here are many and varied.

CAFKIA

----------------------------------------------------------- 

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

Elrod's picture

I like CBT

I don't always agree with CBT but I like engaging with him on this blog.

BTW, I am an occasional contributer to The Moderate Voice, which is a group effort that aims to strike down the political middle. But in reality it's a collection of people who are both leftish and rightish but who are willing to engage each other in argument and not devolve into flamewar. We note over there that "moderate" has more to do with willingness to listen to opposing viewpoints than it does any political ideology called "moderate." It's what makes the blog great.

I've always seen this site as a liberal, Knoxville-area blog and that's what I like about it. I'm liberal and in about one month I will be a Maryville resident so it's nice to see what other likeminded soon-to-be neighbors have to say. It's always seemed that the non-liberals who post here are libertarians (especially on guns) and not necessarily conservatives or right-wingers in the current sense.

No need for an echo chamber, but I don't think this site is one.

ultron's picture

Was it the "Which crappy

Was it the "Which crappy superhero would win in a fight" poll?

edens's picture

>Was it the "Which crappy

>Was it the "Which crappy superhero would win in a fight" >poll?

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. I seemed to recall some strange troll of Nine's that disappeared off the front page a couple weeks ago.

Anyway, ditching the superhero thing makes Randy a godless commie America hater?

Captain America wasn't even a poll option.

Rachel's picture

I think KnoxViews is pretty

I think KnoxViews is pretty unique. For one thing, there aren't many blogs with progressive slants around East Tennessee. For another, all comments in the ballpark of civil are welcome (as opposed to say, the "famous" instapundit, who allows none at all). The fact that this is a community blog with a large # of folks with permission to post (even with the tighter restrictions Randy added today) is very unusual. And most, although not all, of the posters and commenters are pretty sharp and say things worth listening to.

Yes, it's a left-leaning blog. But I wouldn't call it an echo chamber, especially on local issues. I've had some pretty spirited discussions about those with folks on here who no doubt vote pretty much the same way I do at the state and Federal level.

And while some commenters may be a bit too hard on CBT and other right-leaning commenters, most of us are happy he's here. He's civil. He adds a lot to the discussion. He makes me think through my positions. Hell, sometimes I even agree with him.

For that matter, sometimes I even agree with #9. I just dislike his continual self-aggrandizement and his carping about conspiracies and evil motives.

I come here because it's interesting and because it's the best place I know of online to have a conversation about local issues. I don't think Randy's new rule is gonna change that very much, if at all.

gattsuru's picture

Well, for starters, #9 is

Well, for starters, #9 is not SayUncle, as you might have noticed by reading the "Posted by :" marker. It's not a particularly focal point of the posts, but it does do wonders to actually glance at. That includes you, ironically named Factchecker.

Property rights are pretty well illuminated, even through the internet, but I doubt that's what #9 was focused on. For starters, it might have been the change from an open, progressive (left-wing) community to an open (to specific viewpoints), progressive community. Even if you don't have an echo chamber now, it's remarkably hard to see it staying that way when a 'token Republican' is the strongest opposing voice. Not that an echo chamber's a bad thing -- you tend to make up in clicks what you lose in hits -- but it does tend to reduce the quality of a debate, if only by assuring that it never happens. Reducing the number of blog posters (and thus, likely posts), when you're already having difficulties getting multiple posts per day, doesn't seem like a great idea for growth, either.

Of course, it's not like political biases have ever given individuals a reason to disbelieve the veracity of another user's viewpoint. If such a thing had ever happened before, we might even have reason to doubt that responsible opposing Conservative viewpoints will be welcome!

Just as a predictive bet, you may want to go ahead and change the site rules again : liberal can be defined as someone who is socially and economically . American Democratic not only avoids the recent bias against American liberals, but also comes with its own positive associations, while also reducing any potential confusion from libertarian writers that might actually dare to think true speech would be useful even if some people feel it expresses 'hate'.

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

Elrod's picture

Blogs

How many political blogs are there for East Tennessee anyway? There's Instapundit but he doesn't blog about Tennessee issues at all. Most of the conservative TN bloggers are based in Middle Tennessee, or at least they speak of the state as a whole. The Republican bloggers from East TN (like Les Jones) tend not to delve into politics much. Then there are the libertarian types like Say Uncle, but again they aren't doctrinaire Republicans either. The only highly political conservative bloggers in East Tennessee I can think of that post on a regular basis are Michael Silence and that mutant legislator, Stacey Campfield.

All of this is why Knoxviews being so liberal (or liberal at all) ruffles so many feathers. Knoxviews is easily the best all-around East Tennessee political blog, and it happens to be much more liberal than most East Tennessee voters. What the conservatives don't realize is that Knoxviews is popular precisely because liberals in East Tennessee often feel isolated and this medium is a perfect place to find like-minded souls. Knoxviews is more than just a "welcoming place" for East Tennessee liberals, of course, which is why open debate is welcome here. But if you get obnoxiously right wing - or left wing for that matter (remember that bizarro dude who got banned from Daily Kos for claiming it was racist?) - you get banned from here.

The Dude's picture

I'm trusted.....ohh man, I'm

I'm trusted.....ohh man, I'm trusted. Yes.

CBT's picture

This isn't work for me. I

This isn't work for me. I don't give it that much time or attention. I am far more worried about the clients who pay my to develop arguments and the creditbility I have in courts and with other attorneys than on any blog. It is a matter of time, for work, family, with a blog being far(ther) down the list.

The number one issue for credibility as far as I'm concerned is whether someone posts using their own name. It is totally different if you have to take blame and credit for what you say. I understand the arguments for anonymity, some things wouldn't get said, curtails discussion, etc.

A dozen or so people who post regularly on this blog (and more who read it) know me if they see me on the street. I even met one guy in line at the bank who works in the courthouse. He introduced himself and told me he knew who me from my political work and also from my posts on KnoxViews. That's much different than posting behind one or more alias names.

I've given my opinion on KnoxViews. Sometimes I think it would be easier to read and not post. Guess we'll see how things develop.

Terry Troll's picture

Armadillos

I would really rather read and comment on a blog with some orientaton. It is more likely to be talking about issues that are on my mind. After all as a great Texan and American (Jim Hightower) said "the only things in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead armdillos".
...and this has nothing to do with seeing if I can still post.

cdthomas23's picture

I've given my opinion on

I've given my opinion on KnoxViews. Sometimes I think it would be easier to read and not post. Guess we'll see how things develop.

CBT, I feel the same way. Many know I disagree with most on this blog as well. However, I think there are some good discussions, especially in the realm of local politics. Most posters use decent arguments, while some continually use strictly emotional or name-calling arguments. I posted quite a bit for a while, but I have backed off some. This is more due to being busy with other things (I have not posted much on my own blog either).

However, after reading 9's post, I think he has some valid points. There have been times where "responsible conservative" posts have been removed from the front page for no apparent reason other than they fact they had a conservative viewpoint.

How many political blogs are there for East Tennessee anyway?

Just to add to this, mine is a political blog for East TN; sometimes local politics, more national stuff. Of course it is conservative.

Just my $.02

Craig Thomas
(link...)

Rachel's picture

There have been times where

There have been times where "responsible conservative" posts have been removed from the front page for no apparent reason other than they fact they had a conservative viewpoint.

Name one.

R. Neal's picture

That's probably true, there

That's probably true, there probably have been front page posts demoted because of their conservative point of view. The word "progressive" has been in the site purpose/rules from day one, though.

Rachel's picture

Ok, I don't "responsible

Ok, I don't remember any "responsible conservative posts" demoted, but I'm getting old. You would know.

SayUncle's picture

It's the END OF

It's the END OF KNOXVIEWS!

No, it's just the end of what I liked about it. Now, it's just kos-lite.

I appreciate the property rights lesson, folks. But that's really not the issue I had with the recent decision.

It's obvious my participation isn't wanted. I'll oblige.

Bye.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

metulj's picture

We do this to entertain

We do this to entertain ourselves, not you.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

metulj's picture

I love the "they don't want

I love the "they don't want my kind" remarks. Love 'em. You can still post. You just can't post stupidity or attempts to get R. Neal slapped with DMCA or crossposts to make this place pop up on the wingnut blogs. Naw. Then again, the biggest complainers are ones with the most exclusive blogs of them all under personal control from the get-go. Pearls. Clutched.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Knoxquerious's picture

Maybe the Uncle digits out

Maybe the Uncle digits out there are upset (jealous?) that a "progressive" site in East Tennessee is getting more bites, coverage and participation from all political views than those of the "conservative" style. Keep saturating that dead horse guys.

Mello's picture

If not for Knoxviews...

If not for Knoxviews those of us living ( or planning to live ) in Blount County would have no voice. There is no other place where I can point out that Blount County is going to handle zoning without first running it through the Planning Commission.

(link...)

Or where I can quote the mayor

"If I make the wrong judgment calls, the people will send me home."

and then ask if there is a way we can recall him.

So thanks R.Neal for dealing with the BS and giving the rest of us a place to discuss our local issues.

Andy Axel's picture

However, after reading 9's

However, after reading 9's post, I think he has some valid points. There have been times where "responsible conservative" posts have been removed from the front page for no apparent reason other than they fact they had a conservative viewpoint.

Oh? Point to one. Please.

Now, it's just kos-lite.

[snork] Better that than a haven for violence addicts, if you ask me.

It's obvious my participation isn't wanted. I'll oblige.
Bye.

Y'know, having had nothing to do with this decision, I can only suppose that the single most unwanted participant was the digit. It's no small irony that he's keening the loudest about the death of KV. From my perspective, his particular brand of k00ky wail & whine & conspiracy has worn everyone's patience around here thin.

There's a note of trimuphalism in his writing that just irks the living shit out of me too. Maybe that's just me.

FWIW. Never once had I said that SayUncle should be tossed off the reservation, no matter how rough & tumble our exchanges got.

But, your decision is yours. Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

smalc's picture

But if 9 is gone, where will

But if 9 is gone, where will I get my daily dose of rhetorical questions? Will I get them somewhere else? Will I miss them? Who will provide them?......

Tess's picture

test

Just checking my pulse.

Factchecker's picture

SU post by 9, check!

Sorry for the error. I didn't think it sounded like Uncle. He knows how to get along...or something like that.

It's obvious my participation isn't wanted. I'll oblige. ...
Now, my kind ain’t wanted there no more.

Now you're being irrational. What is obvious and why? What is "your kind" and how do you think it means you?

The site rules have always been clear who owns the blog, what the predominant political gist is, and who makes the rules. Participation has been encouraged, but that does not mean posting lots of obtuse crap over Randy's welcome mat.

Sometimes I think it would be easier to read and not post.

Didn't know the goal of politics was to be easy. There's always teevee. Anonymity: There are some kooks out there. More dangerous on the right IMO than on the left. Ask metulj 'bout that. Proclaiming one's conservative views in ET is like saying your favorite football school is UT.

As for local conservative blogs, I haven't bothered to look, but there have been several mentioned above: Insta, Craig's, Silence, Les's, I would think SU's would qualify more than this one. But again, responsible conservative views are welcomed by me. Just don't think I'm gonna just sit idle if you say (especially if blindly) what a great job our prez is doing.

Joe P.'s picture

The reason

The reason I read the posts here, visit often, and comment at times is due largely to the fact that it is not a blog of lock-step talking points, not an echo chamber. There are plenty of places to visit and read for dull and dumbed-down perspectives in ET and nationally. The work maintaining the site and monitoring the forums must be time-consuming and endless. I remain impressed.

R. Neal's picture

Thanks for the comments.Re.

Thanks for the comments.

Re. ET conservative blogs and other conservative outlets:

Knoxville News Sentinel
Metro Pulse
Halls Shopper
Terry Frank
Les Jones
SayUncle
David Oatney
Brian Hornback
Instapundit
Lissa Kay
Rich Hailey
Rob Huddleston
TN Politics/Adam Groves
The Rep

And that's just from the KnoxViews blogroll. There are others we don't link to. And we're not saying that's a bad thing. It is what it is. We're just trying to offer an alternative, and we seem to be outnumbered and mostly overpowered. But we're working on that...

Brian A.'s picture

Sorry, Uncle

I assume the selection was not entirely based on ideological viewpoint. If it was, it must have been way to the left.

/not included in the vast KnoxViews liberal conspiracy

Brian A.
I'd rather be cycling.

Elrod's picture

Brian Hornback

I forgot that one. LOL.

Is Terry Frank an East Tennessean? I thought she comes from Nashville?

R. Neal's picture

She's from around here. She

She's from around here. She just signed on as a regular panelist at WBIR Inside Tennessee, I think.

smalc's picture

Oak Ridge, if I recall

Oak Ridge, if I recall correctly. She has/had a column in the Anderson Co paper.

Elrod's picture

ET blogs

I looked through each of the ET conservative blogs and found no more than about 2 comments in total. There are more ET conservative blogs because there are more conservatives than liberals in ET. But when you do have a substantial liberal blog in ET you get a LOT of attention - most of it positive from people looking for conversation with relatively like-minded people. Knoxviews succeeds as an alternative media because the mainstream in ET is skewed to the right.

Elrod's picture

Terry Frank

Has Terry Frank discovered the missing WMD in Iraq yet? Until she does, nobody should listen to her.

metulj's picture

I think we should do a

I think we should do a chip-in to get her a ticket to Baghdad so she can do some real investigating. Or would we send her to Niger?

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

edens's picture

Is it just me or, in some

Is it just me or, in some warped way, does this debate parallel the "Can Farragut secede from Metro?" question?

Can the online persona that is #9 exist without Knoxviews/SKbubba when it essentially grew up in its orbit?

Beside, Randy, I say let him play. I miss the little feller. He's cute when he's angry.

metulj's picture

Boy, is he pissed too. I

Boy, is he pissed too. I didn't realized that he had been banned. What an illustrious roll call of the banned: Walker Johnson, That Guy that's Pissed off at DKos, and # 9.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Andy Axel's picture

Hey Rachel

I posed the same question yesterday to cdthomas23. No answer.

C'mon, cdthomas. Point to an instance where a "conservative viewpoint" alone was enough to get a post plonked. I have access to the moderation queues and have yet to find one. Lots of spam. Lots of stuff in poor taste. Lots of flame bait and trollery.

And if I'm combing the comments queue, I don't see any unpublished comments by CBT, Les Jones, or SayUncle. Hm. Why is that, you suppose?

There are a few by The Odd Integer, but far fewer than you might think, given the screeching and gnashing of teeth, and cries of "Help! Help! I'm being suppressed!" There would have been a lot more if I'd had my way, but my hand was stayed a number of times by [sarcasm]Der Obergruppenfuhrer Neal[/sarcasm].

Conservatism gets its fair shake here; admittedly, much fairer than it would be than if this were my house. I'm much less tolerant than Randy is, and I freely admit to that. I hope no one is buying #9's current line of bull, though. He got much better than he deserved for a long, long, long, long, long time. Peter Jackson's King Kong long.

Bottom line: That KV is Kos-lite is a lie. Flat out.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

bill young's picture

Sandra,Betty & Frank

I read all three's columes & I believe,in local politics,they like who they like but by golly if who they like does sumthin' they don't like...they hit 'em up side the head.I do know Betty listens to Malone;Sandra went with Madeline & Frank voted for Harold.This old new left hippy supported all three.

R. Neal's picture

Yeah, the Halls Shopper is

Yeah, the Halls Shopper is borderline, especially with Betty's point of view to balance things out. But ask Sandra. Call her a liberal. And look out!

The MP is more than just Frank. He's actually reasonable sometimes.

And on local politics, they are all pretty much anti-stupidity regardless of party affiliation, sort of like here on local politics.

bill young's picture

I would never cuss Sandra

I would never cuss Sandra like that..I think the MP is pretty liberal about a good party

edens's picture

Well, as one pulse

Well, as one pulse contributor Nine seems to think is a commie totalitarian, let me point out that his arguments about downtown development are often backed up by Michael Kaplan, a paleo-conservative if there ever was one...

So who knows how that all parses out with regard to party line.

R. Neal's picture

And there's Rikki and

And there's Rikki and occasionally CAFKIA (and Joe S., who seems more independent than anything to me) to balance out Frank and the occasional Glenn Reynolds (haven't seen him there in a while, though) and The Publisher.

And to me, that's who ultimately sets the tone of the paper, whether it's the KNS or the HS or the MP. Not that there's anything wrong with that except when I don't agree with them.

Bill Lyons's picture

Knoxviews is fine

KnoxViews is just fine with me as are the new changes. It goes far beyond a blog, regardless of ideological slant, to a very good place to hear from people from whom I would not otherwise be likely to hear.

The site works well in its coverage of national, state, and local issues. For obvious reasons I pay the most attention to the third. Sure some people get a little unpleasant; it is just to be expected in this unfiltered mode of communication and doesn’t bother me. Besides some of the unpleasant stuff is pretty funny at times. Nothing wrong with developing a thick skin. I also don't see a thing wrong with having an explicit ideological slant. A blog without an ideological identity is a blog with no soul and probably few readers. There are plenty of outlets. Nobody is relegated to homelessness on the Internet. With the exception of the rare post on KnoxBlab on pizza restaurant experiences, this is pretty much the only place I ever put anything.

I personally don’t derive much satisfaction from preaching to the converted and like the fact that what might be characterized as “spin” is not at all effective in this environment. There are too many informed people ready to challenge what needs to be challenged. From the k2k days to SKB to KnoxViews (each one better than the previous) I have met dozens and dozens of interesting, funny, intriguing, challenging people – many in person as well - and I appreciate all of those, most especially Randy, who have done the hard work to sponsor these sites. It is part of the new world of civic engagement and is incredibly democratized and (thankfully) will always be a bit rough around the edges.

Les Jones's picture

Randy has not being entirely

Randy has not being entirely forthcoming about the extent of the changes.

It isn't just that you have to be a trusted user to post to the front page. I can't post new threads at all. Not just threads to the front page. I no longer have an option to create blog entries period. I'm guessing SayUncle doesn't, either. I emailed Randy to confirm that the change was intentional.

It's Randy's blog and his choice. He's sent a clear message that he doesn't want me posting here. I'm not going to adjust my politics or genuflect just so in order to become a "trusted user."

The Internet is a big place and there are plenty of other blogs out there. Since I'm no longer welcome to post new entries I'm out of here. Someone try to keep metulj's ego down to sub-planetary dimensions.

www.lesjones.com

* <--my point     what metulj is usually babbling about--> *

R. Neal's picture

From the site

From the site info/rules:

---
Trusted Users can create their own blogs and post articles and other content on the front page.

[..]

For Trusted Users, a personal blog is automatically created for you. To post a blog entry on the front page, click on "Create Content --> blog entry".
---

(By default, all posted content except comments automatically goes on the front page, as explained in the other thread.)

Factchecker's picture

I didn't know there were

I didn't know there were threads that weren't on the front page, other than demoted ones that are the subject of this change. The change has been described as eliminating the need to demote threads that are offensive or far from the publisher's perspective. So no, there necessarily won't be non-front page threads. Makes sense to me.

I hope you don't part ways, Les. The comments are where the debate takes place. But let me just ask, and this is not meant to be rhetorical: Does anyone know of any conservative blogs with any significant traffic that have a more "liberal" posting policy than this one does now? Are there conservative blogs where I can become a user and post an entry (not just a comment) that espouses a liberal viewpoint?

EDIT: I see skb clarified. Someday me lern read to.

gttim's picture

Can't be hard.

How hard can it be to be a trusted user? It must not be hard, because I evidently can still post. And we all know what kind of lose cannon I am!

Rich Hailey's picture

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

Well, this is a fine howdy do! As near as I can tell, based on the fact that I can no longer create content, I was not given trusted user status. I checked my posting history, and the majority of my posts here were related to getting Knoxville Bloggers of all political stripes together for good food and fun times.

For this I am banned from creating content?

Alrighty then.

It was nice meeting y'all at the Blogfests, particularly Ms. Bean and cafkia, and I hope to see you at future meetups, but you'll have to read a shudder conservative blog like Shots to find out about them, since I can no longer post events here.

Take care,

Rich

Justin's picture

I don't think anyone should

I don't think anyone should be angry about the change. Its RNeals web page and he can do whatever he wants. Personally, I'm happy that I'll never have to see another #9 post ever again. :)

gattsuru's picture

Strange how the individuals

Strange how the individuals leaning left seem to be trusted, while Les Jones and Mr. Hailey aren't, despite similar membership times. Of course, that must be some horrific accident or they must have previously done something disturbingly off-topic, that I'm not aware of.

Factchecker, the Gun Blogs allow any user to post, and the only threads I've seen deleted are spam. I'm sure there's a point where off-topic or problematic posts would be as well, but I haven't seen it yet. Saysuncle has repeatedly stated that he'd let even the Gun Guys or the Brady Bunch post on the thing if they so choose, and I've actually invited them to do so.

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

Les Jones's picture

Factchecker:

"I hope you don't part ways, Les. The comments are where the debate takes place."

There's no way around it as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to participate as a second-class member.

Like Uncle, I was invited to join and participate here by Randy when he was getting things rolling. I made the first post to Knoxviews. If I'm not welcome to post here then as far as I'm concerned I'm not welcome at all.

"But let me just ask, and this is not meant to be rhetorical: Does anyone know of any conservative blogs with any significant traffic that have a more "liberal" posting policy than this one does now?"

That's not my issue at all. Randy is free to run his blog however he likes, and I'm free to leave if I don't like the way he runs it.

www.lesjones.com

* <--my point     what metulj is usually babbling about--> *

jah's picture

You're obviously free to do

You're obviously free to do whatever you want, Les, but it's too bad.

And I really think you're overreacting.

rikki's picture

not obvious

You're obviously free to do whatever you want, Les

That's not obvious. I don't understand why Les and Uncle don't merit Trusted User status. They have seniority on damn near everyone in this online community. Apparently Johnny Ringo is trusted, though his posts are more predictably partisan and prechewed.

Getting in a perpetual pissing match with metulj or Andy is not enough of an accomplishment to earn somebody demerits, particularly since such songs are duets.

The Digit clearly needs supervision, mainly because he doesn't seem to understand why that's the case. Subjecting him or new users to prior approval versus after-the-fact demotion is not the same thing as censoring them. I think he was just looking for an excuse to flee before having to answer for being utterly wrong about the McClung Warehouses.

I see no reason why Les or Uncle needs supervision, however.

metulj's picture

"I see no reason why Les or

"I see no reason why Les or Uncle needs supervision, however."

Crossposting?

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

Andy Axel's picture

Shucks!

Getting in a perpetual pissing match with metulj or Andy is not enough of an accomplishment to earn somebody demerits, particularly since such songs are duets.

Aw, shucks! Thanks, rikki!

. o O (Hey! Waitaminnit!)

I'm on the record here: I have recommended banning for #9 in the past but not so for Uncle or Les. The latter two have not been moderated in comments, ever. Not once. Not by me, metulj, or Randy. Hell, I'VE been moderated in comments, so I know it's possible to cross the line. I made a crack about a certain GOP politico deserving to go to the slam and PLONK! went the post, for example.

I've actually been reversed on my decisions to moderate posts at times, too. Nature of the beast. I can guarantee you that Randy is a tolerant soul when it comes to what passes the "minimum standards of discourse" filter hereabouts; much moreso than I would be if this were my house.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

gttim's picture

Factchecker says: "But let

Factchecker says: "But let me just ask, and this is not meant to be rhetorical: Does anyone know of any conservative blogs with any significant traffic that have a more "liberal" posting policy than this one does now?"

Les Answers: That's not my issue at all....

Translation: No.

In fact, most conservative blogs do not even let you post comments much less front page stories. Those that do allow comments almost universally delete comments they do not agree with. Of course they make Randy out to be the bad guy, because he wants to exercise some control over his blog.

I do not post often here, but I have seen ridiculous posts by various wingnuts that had little foundation in truth. I don't see a problem with Randy wanting to restrict the worst offenders.

Like Uncle, I was invited to join and participate...

Yeah, and I asked my wife to marry me. That doesn't mean it lasts forever. Ask almost all the GOP presidential primary candidates about that. (Most of the Democratic ones remained with their first spouses- family values don't you know.)

Factchecker's picture

I would understand if that's

I would understand if that's the case, Les. I hope it's not that way.

...the Gun Blogs allow any user to post, and the only threads I've seen deleted are spam. I'm sure there's a point where off-topic or problematic posts would be as well, but I haven't seen it yet. Saysuncle has repeatedly stated that he'd let even the Gun Guys or the Brady Bunch post on the thing if they so choose...

I wonder how many diatribe posts from the Brady Bunch (had to think about that one to figure what it means) would be tolerated before the policy would be changed. 5? 50? No limit? Has it ever been tested?

rikki's picture

I wonder how many diatribe

I wonder how many diatribe posts from the Brady Bunch (had to think about that one to figure what it means) would be tolerated before the policy would be changed.

Uncle let me mock practically his entire readership over the Zumbo flare up a couple months back. He even saw my point and came to agree with me to an extent.

R. Neal's picture

OK, one more time out of

OK, one more time out of respect for Uncle and Les who were welcome posters here before and are still welcome to participate in comments.

Uncle posted a silly poll on the front page that was long and took up practically the whole screen. I demoted it but left it published in the side bar. He bitched. I explained. He then went over to his blog and posted complaints about his treatment, bitched about me and the site rules in a mocking tone very similar to #9, etc. He suggested the site really wasn't open at all. I let it go at the time. Before that he had posted a link to an offensive site and I asked him not to do that, and he complained about it, and this was after having previously been asked to tone down the language a little and bitching about that, too. I was fairly taken aback and somewhat disappointed by all this, because SayUncle and I have always gotten along OK and I've tried to be reasonable, respectful, and diplomatic.

Les has some interesting and more mature posts from time to time, but he also likes to cross-post things that he knows are not welcome at this site. Apparently it's not enough that the headline for his post at his blog and his post at Michael Silence both appear in the "Blog-o-Rama" sidebar where anyone who is interested can click on it and read it. One day I demoted something that was not appropriate for the intended purpose and audience of this site and he put it back on the front page, I demoted it again, he put it back, and this went on four or five times. I guess he thought it was cute or fun or something. But I let it go at the time. Then he cross-posted something again this week that I did not feel was appropriate or of interest to readers of this site (a gun post with a crude headline and a link to a site I do not wish to promote). I demoted it. He complained. I explained. He complained some more.

While all this is going on, #9 is going off the deep end about an argument between two other commenters that didn't involve him, complaining about me, the site, the site rules, calling me a hypocrite, etc. etc.

I really hate that Les and Uncle are taking it so personally. I've met both of them, and they are nice folks in person, and they are both interesting bloggers. This is just blog business, and they have theirs and I have mine. I don't tell them how to run theirs, and I would have appreciated the same in return.

As I said in the other explanation, this change has been in the works for a long time. I just don't have the time or interest in explaining things over and over to people who complain about how they are treated or how I run this website. I was almost afraid to look at my own website in the morning for fear of what someone may have posted in the middle of the night in the unrestricted mode the site was working in (and there has been some really crazy, scary stuff). As I also explained in the other thread, there are limitations in the software that do not provide a practical solution for me to deal with it in a timely and efficient manner, and frankly I'm tired of the aggravation. Further, any solution available in the current version of the software would deter respectful, mature posters by delaying their posts until a moderator could approve them, all because of a few isolated problems.

So we decided to take the site in a different direction and more strictly enforce the original "liberal/progressive" intent of the site, and to relieve me of the administrative burden of monitoring people who violate the spirit of that and then want to argue about it, and then have to spend more time posting stupid, lengthy explanations such as this. Uncle actually suggested it. He said the "asterisk should be by 'open'" (suggesting, I suppose, that I should explain "open" similar to how I had to explain "progressive"). He was right. I have now learned that sadly you can't have a truly "open" site on the internet and maintain any purpose or quality or mature conversation.

There are 237 users with blog posting privileges. Most never post to their blog. That number will fluctuate over time. Some will be added, some will be removed. Someday there might be updates or addons to the software that will allow a more streamlined and/or "democratic" process, but for now that's the way it is.

So some people may leave, some people may get mad or get their feelings hurt (the discussion at the thread at SayUncle's place is a pretty good indicator of the level of maturity and the motives of some previous posters here -- it's a Stalinist purge, I'm a liar and a hypocrite, KnoxViews readers are a mindless herd and/or pack of animals, we're class elitists, it's all related to Imus (?) etc. etc., oh, and I just now saw that Uncle is kiddingly but it's not funny suggesting that his readers sabotage this site with a legal time bomb -- nice!), and that's too bad, but that, too, is what it is.

SayUncle's picture

Appreciate the response.

Appreciate the response. But from my point of view, it went like this:

* You asked me to post here. And I did.

* I posted a link to a site that was questionable a bit back. You said knock it off and I did. I don't recall complaining about it other than inquiring about it and asking if it was over the line. So, I didn't do it again.

* And you asked me a bit back to keep the language under control, and I did.

* I noted that if you expect me to keep it under control, you should have the same expectation of others. You agreed. But it continued.

* Then, I post a harmless and, if I do say so myself, pretty funny poll to take up space on a slow day here.

*I inquire about it and you tell me because you want yours up top (it was a well-researched post, btw) because it took a lot of work and you want it read. No problemo.

* I ask why you don't just put it below your posts. and you get all 'it's my site' and 'no one is forcing me to participate' on me.

* I get smart with it at my site because I don't care for the treatment.

* You say take it or leave it. So, I left it.

So, the whole entire incident had absolutely zero to do with your past complaints. If I linked to SABJ day again or something, I'd understand.

I'm not taking it personally. I still respect you and like your blogging. I still think you and The Mrs. are wonderful and charming people. I'll continue to read because I like reading Randy Neal. But I won't participate. As you said, your site and your rules. And if I don't like it, don't play. So, that's that.

And, honestly, I think some of #9's criticism of this decision is a bit over the top. But some of it's pretty damn spot on.

And I'm not trying to sabotage your site at all with a legal time bomb. And I think that accusation is unfounded. Anyone could see I was making a joke about, err, this incident here.

---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?

WhitesCreek's picture

Bye, Unk. I'll miss you.

Bye, Unk. I'll miss you. What are we going to do for strident irrational gun love?

Bye, 9...I'll uh...well, bye, anyway.

'Creek

Les Jones's picture

Randy:

"One day I demoted something that was not appropriate for the intended purpose and audience of this site and he put it back on the front page, I demoted it again, he put it back, and this went on four or five times."

I had no idea it was you doing it. I figured it was one of the moderators. (And since the moderators aren't clearly identified, I don't even know who they are.) Which brings up a point. Things are done with no explanation. If you had sent me an email note saying you had removed it from the front page and why that would have been the end of it.

I don't think you communicated your feelings on this very well. If you had been more verbal in the past I don't think things would have built up to a head.

"Then he cross-posted something again this week that I did not feel was appropriate or of interest to readers of this site (a gun post with a crude headline and a link to a site I do not wish to promote). I demoted it. He complained. I explained. He complained some more."

Randy, these are the two emails I sent you that you are referring to. Out of respoect I'm not showing your end, but in fairness I should say that it was reasonable and polite, if terse.

Me: "Randy, I'm curious why my post last night got pulled off of the front page. Is it unacceptable on KnoxViews to advocate that women have the right to defend themselves from rape?"

You responded. This is my response to your response: "If the headline is offensive, that's because the idea it's criticizing is offensive. As far as guns, it's about human rights more than guns. And it was cross-posted to one other site, not two.

"It's your joint and your rules and I'll abide by that. It's frustrating for me sometimes, but I imagine it's frustrating for you, too. I'm not wild about it, but I'm not going to kick and scream about it."

So that was the extent of my "complaining."

"I really hate that Les and Uncle are taking it so personally."

I don't know any other way to take it. I realize intentions and outcomes aren't always the same.

You didn't offer an explanation for why Rich Hailey is no longer allowed to post. He's been the one putting together the blogger get togethers and he has been remarkably well behaved.

www.lesjones.com

* <--my point     what metulj is usually babbling about--> *

Andy Axel's picture

You didn't offer an

You didn't offer an explanation for why Rich Hailey is no longer allowed to post.

Yet everyone instinctively gets why #9 is now the Odd Digit Out.

Res ipsa loquitur.

____________________________

Ruining songs with my mitten handed, Magyar guitar play since 1990.

gattsuru's picture

I wonder how many diatribe

I wonder how many diatribe posts from the Brady Bunch (had to think about that one to figure what it means) would be tolerated before the policy would be changed. 5? 50? No limit? Has it ever been tested?

It hasn't been tested, for the simple reason that gunbloggers actually know their information. The Brady Bunchies website can't even deal with pro-gun factual comments there, nevermind actually risk putting a post where people know the subject and can't be silenced.

I'm not Saysuncle, but I hold a fairly high respect for the man, and I've never seen him even a tenth as hypocritical as such an action would require.

For a slightly less perfect example, RedState does allow liberal viewpoints, although it has had a bad habit of strongly discouraging liberal voices, particularly those who sounds too much like DNC talking voices. Admittedly, my experience with the site is minimal, and I'm just going from their description as a right-wing DailyKos, so they may not be a good example.

As to the "Instapundit doesn't allow comments" concept, that's not really a good metric. Instapundit isn't a blog under the normal mechanic. It's more a link festival or aggregation method, nearly a Carnival of the Carnivals. There'd be no point of having comments there; he only points to newsworthy posts which usually allow commentary.

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

edit: oh, and now that I remember, Saysuncle has Brutal Hugger -- a fairly cliched lefty -- as a common poster, and doesn't delete his posts even when they have significant flaws.

I'm still trying to figure out the point of the 'Well, the other side doesn't do it' viewpoint. If conservative blogs overwhelmingly threw puppies into blenders, that wouldn't be a good reason for you all to do so; if conservative blogs didn't take RSS feeds, that wouldn't be a good reason for you all to avoid them.

Mr. Site Owner's management difficulties complaints are several times stronger.

"The world isn't beautiful, and that lends it a certain sort of beauty." - Kino's Journey

Rachel's picture

Instapundit isn't a blog

Instapundit isn't a blog under the normal mechanic. It's more a link festival or aggregation method,

Interesting. I've thought for a long time that Glenn really has very little original to say. But somehow he still has this reputation as one of the great bloggers. Go figure.

P.S. I hope Uncle and Les will change their minds and stay around. I'll miss them if they leave (especially like talking with Les about Blount County history).

Bottom line tho is Randy's blog, Randy's rules. If you can't live with 'em, then I guess you should go.

metulj's picture

If you really pay attention

If you really pay attention to SayUncle, that blog is akin to Instapundit. Lots of cut-and-paste and one-liners. It's basically contentless on the author side. Reynolds will occasionally go beyond a sentence or two, but, on the whole, it's a link and an "indeed" or "heh." Our friend in Maryville isn't much different.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

gattsuru's picture

There's a difference :

There's a difference : Saysuncle is a story collector and fact-checker, while Instapundit is merely a link collector. There's also very little benefit to a story merely by making it long. A short, to-the-point post is often preferable compared to a long-winded one for news stories. As is the opposite, I will admit, but long isn't an inherent advantage in writing.

I also wouldn't say that Instapundit lacks good things to say. His legal posts and writings for other sites are fairly complex, although I think he allows his libertarian leanings to get in the way of facts sometimes. But it actually takes some degree of skill to collect and distribute said information, as well as a certain degree of 'hunches' as to the veracity of stories. I believe he does podcast interviews as well, although I personally haven't listened to any.

To give the networking viewpoint, the ICANN servers do very little original work, merely collecting and analyzing data from the DNS servers and accredited applications. But you wouldn't call them anything but great -- their technology allows you to reliably find a specific bit of data while sifting through terabytes upon terabytes of information.

"I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be." - Douglas Adams

Rich Hailey's picture

Re: Remarkably well behaved

Les, I'm not sure whether that was a compliment or an insult...*grin*

What's so remarkable about being polite and following the dictates of the man in charge?

Now, being demoted while following those dictates is a little bit remarkable, but it's not a big deal. This is R. Neal's place and he gets to run it as he sees fit. Blogs, even group blogs like this one, are absolute monarchies,not democracies. R. Neal does the work and pays the bills so he gets to make the decisions. As long as he checks with Mrs. Neal first.

R. Neal has left the door open for those without Trusted User status to gain it by submitting proposed posts to him for review. I thought about going this route, but decided against it.

I've created 14 posts or events. Of those, 8 concerned BlogFests, 2 concerned donating to the East Tennessee Children's Hospital, 1 congratulated Katie Allison Granju on her Emmy nomination (something R. Neal thanked me for bringing to his attention), 1 made fun of the Tennessee legislature for proposing to track all drivers by GPS and taxing them based on miles traveled.

Even though I have followed the rules at all times, my posting status was still pulled. It should be clear to anyone who reads those posts that the change was based not on my conduct or the content of my posts, but on my ideological leanings. Like I said earlier, that's R. Neal's call to make; he owns the place. But there's no sense in my submitting posts in order to try and regain Trusted User status when all my posts to date would seem to justify retaining that status.

Now then, for the real reason I came back to this thread. The next BlogFest is set for Saturday, April 21. We're going to meet early, at around 3PM for a little laser tag at Laser Quest, then head over for some dinner at Calhoun's at Pellisippi (same place as last time.) Drop me an email if you're coming so I can get a head count for both places. And I'm going to try and reserve the upstairs room at Calhoun's so we won't be in everybody's way again.

Somebody with posting privileges, please feel free to create an event so everybody will know what's going on.

Eleanor A's picture

(Why am I not surprised to

(Why am I not surprised to see Les and Uncle back here, after they both supposedly left in a huff earlier today...?)

And why am I not surprised to see a few rather high-profile right-leaning individuals trying to argue that the site rules somehow don't include phrases worded every way from Sunday that this is a site intended primarily for lefty-oriented discussion..? Or that well, the rules do say this, but there should be exceptions for this and this and this...

An argument claiming a rightward leaning site administrator would have allowed the kind of talk that took place around here last fall, had the shoe been on the other foot, simply begs sanity.

Frankly, I can't believe Randy's taking any kind of smack about this at all. And yet, here it is. Surprise, surprise.

Factchecker's picture

I'm still trying to figure

I'm still trying to figure out the point of the 'Well, the other side doesn't do it' viewpoint.

It's all relative. What are the "rules" on the innertubes? Well, one can look around and see what the norm is, what's working or not working elsewhere. (You know, kind of let the free market decide, heh.) It just seems that if people didn't mind a certain set of rules on one side of the fence, they wouldn't have cause to complain about those same rules on the other side of the fence.

If conservative blogs overwhelmingly threw puppies into blenders, that wouldn't be a good reason for you all to do so; if conservative blogs didn't take RSS feeds, that wouldn't be a good reason for you all to avoid them.

If Al Gore's Bell Meade home uses a lot of utilities, would it prove that global warming does not exist or be a good reason not to change anyone's behavior to reduce greenhouse gases?

Les Jones's picture

Eleanor:

"(Why am I not surprised to see Les and Uncle back here, after they both supposedly left in a huff earlier today...?)"

Ah, Eleanor A. Always the sweet flower of KnoxViews.

I wanted to say my peace and let my side of the story be known. Having accomplished that, I'm done.

And I'm not leaving in a huff. I'm leaving in a cab. I already called the cab. I'll be here in a minute and a huff.

Sorry, Groucho. See y'all.

www.lesjones.com

* <--my point     what metulj is usually babbling about--> *

jah's picture

I wouldn't've thought

I wouldn't've thought Zoolander would take a cab....

Andy Axel's picture

Maybe it's made of Blue

Maybe it's made of Blue Steel.

____________________________

Ruining songs with my mitten handed, Magyar guitar play since 1990.

jah's picture

I'm pretty sure that's La

I'm pretty sure that's La Tigra.

WhitesCreek's picture

I say don't let Les come

I say don't let Les come back until he does something about that avatar...

ultron's picture

I grew up in South Bend,

I grew up in South Bend, Ind. It's a town about half the size of Knoxville, a couple hours east of Chicago. One of the beautiful things about South Bend is that it has a number of highly competitive downtown basketball courts. These courts are not for the faint of heart. If you've got game and can compete, you earn respect. If you don't like the stiff competition, or elbows, then you step aside.

I'm stunned, personally, that those who purport to be individualists, who claim to be tough guys, who say they are secure in their convictions and beliefs, that they would just turn tail and run because RNeal bumped their posts off the front page. I mean, come on.

So you all really are going to take your ball and go home? Really?

Rich Hailey's picture

Re South Bend Basketball

Ultron, your analogy is flawed, so your attempted insult fails miserably. They're not leaving because their posts were bumped; they're leaving because R Neal is no longer allowing them to post at all. Can you see the difference? More than "throwing elbows", R Neal has in effect thrown them off the court, only allowing them (for now) to comment, or to continue your analogy, to yell from the bleachers. So tell me, how much respect do you earn from the players when you can never leave the bleachers?

Not much.

It's not about who has game; it's all about who is allowed to play. If you've read through the comments, you'll notice several places where moderators on this site admit to having crossed lines and having posts or comments demoted or deleted, yet they still were granted Trusted User status. R. Neal himself stated flat out that Trusted User status wasn't based on behavior, but on ideological orientation. He only wants to allow certain viewpoints on the front page. As owner of the site, that's his prerogative.

As for "turn tail and run", when a man tells you that you are no longer welcome in his house, (and telling a man you once invited in that he is no longer welcome on the front porch, but can still use the side door as long as nobody sees him certainly falls under the heading "You're not welcome") then the polite thing to do is leave. Your attempt to cast that as cowardice shows a lot more about you than it does about Les and Uncle.

StaceyDiamond's picture

My Post Taken Down

I posted a something last night calling this blog an echo chamber and what do you know, it was taken down. Ok then.

jah's picture

Are you surprised or

Are you surprised or something? What's your point?

Andy Axel's picture

I took it down. It had

I took it down.

It had nothing to do with the content. It had to do with your habit of responding to comments with blog entries.

____________________________

"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." K. Vonnegut, 1922-2005

redmondkr's picture

Jeeze, last Tuesday morning

Jeeze, last Tuesday morning I went into the hospital for a colon resection and, today when I get home and catch up on KnoxViews, I find that I have also had a ninectomy.


Come See Us at

The Hill Online

WhitesCreek's picture

Pain Hurts

...I went into the hospital for a colon resection and, today when I get home and catch up on KnoxViews, I find that I have also had a ninectomy.

One of your operations was more painless than the other. Hope your recovery from both goes smoothly.

Steve

redmondkr's picture

Thanks, Steve I was very

Thanks, Steve

I was very fortunate. The surgeon that did the work did it in such a way that I required very little pain medication afterward. The polyp was benign and my recovery is going very well. Now I'm on a soap box yelling at all my old fart friends (was that insensitive) to get those colonoscopies they've been putting off.

I have also been raving about the people at Ft. Sanders Regional who cared for me during my hospital stay. There was not one of them that was less that wonderful.

As to the ninectomy, I always felt that he was relatively benign although a thick headed embarrassment for Randy's class establishment.


Come See Us at

The Hill Online

WhitesCreek's picture

I've had mine

Now I'm on a soap box yelling at all my old fart friends...

Steve Plonk's picture

Ch CH CH CHANGES

Yes, changes are coming to Knoxviews. I am assuming that if one constantly posts hateful material ID-ing one as some
kind of toasty-headed wingnut, one may be deleted. I guess that this site is becoming more user friendly to kind and
thoughtful political and/or social discourse. I realize that "Say Uncle" is a "whine site" for so-called conservative types. Then, kind folks and gentle people, if you fall under that persuasion, post on that site.

That being said...
I am sort of a maverick and fit in neither category. However, I think that either Hillary, Edwards or Richardson are the folks who have a chance at the Democratic nomination. The five others may continue to fight it out in the democratic party.

My favorite candidate in the republican aisle is the Senator from Arizona. He's a moderate republican and is a fellow maverick and I admire his guts. Unfortunately, he allowed himself to be a Dubya puppet in the last election... It's early to tell anything about an election eighteen months hence.

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