It's actually a big deal to charge admission to the Smokies because of its unique charter. I'm not sure an act of Congress is enough.

The Great Smoky Mountains National Park is the only major national park that has no admission fee. Many people lived here before it became a park and as part of the deal which evicted many people from their family land, it was written into the charter that it will always be free to come into the park.

Indeed, but weren't there settlers in Yellowstone, Yosemite, Grand Canyon...etc? It was part of the deal to build Newfound Gap Road and not to charge for use. But I doubt at the times the folks that made this charter could foresee millions of cars entering every year bringing pollution along with them. Isn't it time to change this policy?

Cathy, what about charging vehicles to enter Cades Cove? Say $10 for a day pass.

Such as voluntary donations. The NPS will accept donations directly to GSMNP without any of the overhead associated with partner organizations. If just 10% of the visitors anually (9,000,000) would voluntarily pay an entrance fee it would really help the budget.
Also a $1 motel room tax in Sevier, Blount, and NC counties going to the park might help a bit.

I can't begin to guess what it was like to clear out residents to make other parks. I think everyone here can imagine the frustration, loss and sense of community that the original Smokies residents felt when they finally agreed to leave in exchange for a few things, including no admission fees. A few years ago I talked to a woman whose family used to live in the Smokies. She was very tearful when she described what losing that land meant to her parents. She was very proud when she talked about being the only park that will never charge admission.

Why not eliminate cars from the cove and charge people to ride some form of mass transit into the cove. Hikers and bicyclists could enter the cove free of charge.

The charter says the park won't charge fees. That's in part because people in this area raised money so that there would be a park in the first place.

Besides which, park roads are the quickest way by far to get from Gatlinburg to Townsend, or from Blount County to Cherokee.

I could maybe see charging for access to Cades Cove, since it has some maintenance costs, and isn't part of a route to anywhere else. It's also overcrowded, and there's a place to queue up cars already.

www.lesjones.com

Anyone who can afford a car, and who can afford the gas to drive that car up to the Smokies can afford an admission.

Anyone who can afford a 20-minute spin on the slick track, a romp at Dollywood with the family, a gondola haul up to Ober Gatlinburg, or a game of laser tag in the fine establishments on the strip in Pigeon Forge has precious little room to complain about a sawbuck (or two for an RV) for a 5-day pass to a National Park.

There were a lot of things that I'm sure were never quite envisioned in 1934 when the park was chartered. Short of selling the park back to the timber interests from which 2/3 of it was purchased, I think there's room in today's world to amend portions of the land grant.

If an admission is enough to deter people from entering the park, I say fine. God bless.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

I haven't seen an admission fee used to the benefit of a Natural area park. The fees generally go to construction of facilities which have no business being there and ultimately causing deterioration of the park experience. If you want to pay a fee and be served, there's always Dollywood.

I was heavily involved in the user fee experiment which turned out to be a near total disaster. Nothing good came of it, except some really bad press releases.

How about instead of violating the park's charter and risking further erosions of the promises that protect it, we confiscate and liquidate the private assets of Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, all the Bushes, Condi Rice, John Ashcroft and pretty much everyone else who has made a fortune by playing both sides of the government contracting game, cancel all the no-bid and cronyist contracts, end the kleptocratic wars, then use the earnings to cover the entire NPS budget shortfall and invest the leftovers in cleaner power plants and homes?

No, that would be CRAZY. Let's just wait patiently until January 2009 like a woman being raped who decides to sit back and enjoy it and allow the theives to waltz out the front door of the White House, heads held shit-eatingly high, into whatever is left of our once great nation. Our grandkids can worry about how to cover our debts and repair the country.

All our National Parks need help.

Every Park has a "Friends of the Park" so if you wanna help GSM, donate to them. Or buy a National Parks Pass for $80 and come and go to all the National Parks and monuments *. Seniors only pay $10 for this National pass. This is the best damn deal for any entertainment you will ever find!

The one thing that always amazes me is that of all the National Parks we have visited, GSM is the only Park where you can play putt-putt while eating ice cream and look at the mountains.

There is no Pigeon Forge / Seiverville mess butt up against any other big name National Park is there? Not at Yellowstone, Yosemite, The Grand Canyon, Bandelier, Devil's Postpile, Bryce Canyon.... nope. What about those Gulf Coast Parks? I have never been to those.

No putt-putts, no outlet malls. I wonder why? Why does GSM have all these kinds of things around it?

* parking fees may still be charged in addition to the Parks Pass. Be warned :-)

Not no, but hell no. Some of my much older family members were forced to move out of the Cove, and other areas of the Park. In the original deals, free admission to the Park was included. If they want to charge admission, give them the land back.
And yes, I do visit the Park, and donate to the Friends.

I work not far from Cades Cove and I will occasionally go to the Cove alone to chill before going to work. The 10$ would stop that. If it came to it I would support a no cars rule. But the charge would stop many people from enjoying the area.

Andy- you must be on the northern side of the park. All we see down here on the southern side are folks from Alabama.

Even if GSM did charge admission it would not mean that the money would stay here in for GSM.

I just don't get the concept of 'most visited' at all. Most driven through enroute to play putt-putt?

When we lived outside Yosemite the school made a huge deal about the 6th grade camping trip into Yosemite. Most of those kids who live within 25 of there had never been to there! Old timers, young folks, you name it- we could not believe how many locals 'had not been up there in years and years.'

I like Rikki's idea the best! And when we shake that money out of those pockets we can spend the rest to restore Hetch Hetchy.... ah........ah.......

And if anyone reading this is a member of PEER.org- bless you, bless you, bless you. Just tell us how we can help.

Oh heck, that ain't nothing compared to Pigeon Forge / Seiverville. That is less than a flea on my 100 pound dog. That is Wall Drug to the Badlands. That is Dollywood and not one other single amusement in Seiver County- no, more like Fly Away and no other amusements.

I don't think a National Park Pass can get you into that reservation. Just like when you go to Canyon De Chelly. De Chelly is all on reservation land and I love that place. Between the Grand and DeChelly, we picked DeChelly every single time.

Some of my much older family members were forced to move out of the Cove, and other areas of the Park. In the original deals, free admission to the Park was included. If they want to charge admission, give them the land back.

Unless your family members were Cherokee, I'm having a hard time working up a lot of sympathy for the supposed expropriation of their land.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

knoxquerious: "I feel for you Tamara, the times can be hard for some folks out there."

Your tone is very kind, knox, and I don't mean to seem to be picking a fight, but I really wasn't trying to earn anyone's pity with my comments about families raising kids. Given my personal experiences (and given my scrutiny of census data in Knoxville/Knox County, too), I kinda suspect the majority of families in Knox live life a whole lot like my family does!

I guess you'd call my neighborhood "fairly affluent," but, I promise you, we women have shuttled trash bags full of our kids' hand-me-downs up and down the block for years. We clip grocery coupons for each other and we tend to grill out together, not dine out together. Some of those vacations in tents have been with my neighbors, too.

I would expect to find that families with kids make up the majority of national parks' visitors. So, whether we're talking about better funding for parks or better funding for schools (my biggest peeve), I just think we'd be smart to ask why we cut the capital gains tax so much, if we can't fund our national parks and we send our kids out pandering door-to-door to buy their schools some computers.

Well, there's a larger point here as well.

GSM is the only park which doesn't charge access fees, and still, there are children in Colorado, Wyoming, California, and Montana out scrabbling to fund public education.

There are a lot of screwed up priorities in this country.

And the fact that $1 movie theaters don't even carry Jujyfruits anymore is among those screwed up priorities, so who can blame you for sneaking in your own?

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

"Unless your family members were Cherokee, I'm having a hard time working up a lot of sympathy for the supposed expropriation of their land."

Hey, Andy? Kiss my ass.

Tell the Gregory family of Blount County that. You've probably heard the name Gregory, as in Gregory's Bald. Their ancestors were forced off their family land in Cades Cove by the feds. No ifs ands or buts.

And your land in downtown or in the suburbs or whatever in Tennessee is somehow less Cherokee land than what was in the park? So if the feds came in and forced you off you'd be happy as a lark because you're not Cherokee, right?

Seriously. Kiss my ass.

www.lesjones.com

You're the one with the pucker in your avatar, Buttercup.

I just have a hard time with someone screaming "THEY STOLD MAH LAND!" when it was the Indian Removal Act of 1830 that made homesteading in the Smokies possible. Which is why, incidentally, even though I'm a Tennessee Democrat, I will never celebrate Jackson Day.

I find it the height of irony that the descendents of white homesteaders feel that they have some superior claim to the land which the Cherokee were forced from in 1835, only to have the same land incorporated as a park 99 years later.

Cry me a river, Whitey. Cry me a big ol' TVA dam full of tears.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

That's a conveniently high and mighty attitude.

Make me a deal. Let's comb through your soil for arrowheads and Indian bones. If we find any you donate your land and home to the Cherokee tribe.

Have we got a deal, guilty white liberal?

www.lesjones.com

No, we don't, gun-toting caucasoid pseudo-con.

Although, my property is probably on the periphery of the Battles of Franklin and Nashville where General Forrest got his worthless ass handed to him after his moderate success in the massacre of helpless black POWs at Fort Pillow. So I'm probably more likely to come across the bones of some unfortunate dead cracker; perhaps one of your ancestors.

If that ever happens, send me a cheek swab. We'll run the DNA at my expense.

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

I asked if your property was once owned by Cherokee, in which case you seem to think a white guy has no legitimate claim to it.

So put up or shut up. Let me have your property assayed. All I ask is that you sign a contract saying that if there's any evidence it was once Cherokee land you deed it over to the Cherokee tribe, since that's the way you claim to think the world should be.

Deal?

If you can't walk the walk don't talk the talk, big mouth.

www.lesjones.com

I love it when you get all Blue Steel. Or is that Le Tigre?

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

It's a little scary to jump into the fray right now.

My two cents. As a full grown adult, I have many times thought it would be helpful to have an entrance fee to the GSM.

In my normal wishy-washy way, I can also see the other side. As a young adult and teenager, we went to the Smokies a lot and probably could not have afforded the entry fee. Someone said, I believe, if you can afford a car and the gas, you can afford the fee. We had $300-$500 cars that sometimes had to be worked on (by us) just before the trip. We had just enough money for gas. We brought our own food from home. It was wonderful!

It's a little hard to compare the Smokies to Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, and even Yosemite. The latter 3 are not so easy to get to as are the Smokies, even for West Coast folks. The Smokies are within a fairly short distance with easy access to a very large population. And, yes, I know Yosemite is "close" to a large population, but have you ever driven there? The drive is worse than going to Fontana. Worth the trip though.

And, yes, I see a LOT of Alabama cars in the Smokies. I have visited Alabama quite a bit in the past. They just love the fact I live near the Smokies.

You've been to Cades Cove, right? You didn't see any mansions there. Just simple houses and log cabins. Those people didn't have much. I don't think it's up to poor subsistence farmers to right the wrongs of the Andrew Jackson administration. In fact, I don't quite get how that's supposed to work.

Jay Gregory told me that his grandmother was bitter about being kicked out of Cades Cove. Later in life she conceded that if it wasn't for the park Cades Cove would have become another Pigeon Forge, and that it was better the way it is, but she wasn't wild about her family being evicted.

My language got rowdy above because I found your callous, ideological disregard for those families' sacrifices to be offensive.

www.lesjones.com

In the Holocaust, millions of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and mentally handicapped people were murdered. That also has nothing to do with people in Cades Cove losing their land.

Why are you even bringing up the Trail of Tears? Because Indians used to live in those mountains? Here's a newsflash - Indians lived all over the place. The land your house is on was once Indian land. You are going to give it back just like in that Midnight Oil song, right?

www.lesjones.com

That also has nothing to do with people in Cades Cove losing their land.

Yes, but it does have to do with eminent domain practices that the government sometimes has exercised in the past. People in Cades were evicted from their land for the federal government to use it for something else. People in Eddyville and Kuttawa were evicted from their land for the federal government to use it for something else. Lake Barkley is where Kuttawa was. The GSMNP is where Cades Cove used to be a private concern.

Got it now? It's called a parallel.

You are going to give it back just like in that Midnight Oil song, right?

Tell ya what. If someone brings a claim in a civil jurisdiction with the standing to do so, and not some blathering stranger trying to bully me into kissing his ass, we'll talk. OK?

Oh, and if there's ever talk of converting my land into a National Park, I owe you a bottle of scotch.

And three - Midnight Oil sucks. Why would I take their lyrics seriously when their music is so god-awful?

____________________________

People getting rich. Some people saying "Markets!" More death. Neil Young. Death.

Sorry Bizgrrl but I have stuff on my glasses- have I driven to Yosemite? AH,yeah. Up, down, in from 49, over from Mono and I think every entrance there is. Simply because with most National Parks the draw for us is not the grand view that is on the post cards or the biggest waterfall. It is those back roads and the wonderful places they lead. The same roads that 99.9% of the tourists won't ever see. Much like your roadtrip yesterday. It could also be simply the fact that those other areas around the big gems permit you to hike with your dog where you can't inside the actual Park.

My point is simple- GSM to us is a local resource that also draws a huge tourist crowd. When you hear many of those from oHIo or Alabama talking about 'the Smokies' they say Smokies in the same breath as they say Dollywood, Outlet malls and Ripleys. Those are words you don't hear with Yosemite, the Redwoods, Bryce or any of these other Parks. Again, I can't say what other features are associated with the Gulf Coast or Northeastern Parks.

I just can't get around the fact that I think years ago someone stood outside of Seiverville and said "shoot- there ain't nothing to do in those mountains so let's build us some putt-putts." Would the GSM be loved to death if it did not have all the geegaws and waterparks flanking it? I don't know but my guess would probably be a big no.

I will be forever thankful that at least those western state NPs were not viewed this way and fight tooth and nail to keep them that way.

Who gets the deer? Me or the dog?

So, since the federal government under Jackson drove out the Cherokee, that means that Andy Axel shouldn't have any sympathy as he put it for the people in Cades Cove who the federal government drove out a hundred years later?

That's seriously your argument - that since something bad was done to one group of people that another group of people who later lived on the same land are underserving of sympathy?

In metulj math two unrelated wrongs make a right.

www.lesjones.com

Previously: "The park won't be ruined by charging an admission, and it won't deter many from going."

Sigh. This is Tennessee. I estimate it will deter about HALF of families, maybe more, from going, and that isn't right.

I'll fall back on some data you know me to pore over routinely, namely the TN State Report Card. It's their recap of Economically Disadvanged students in areas surrounding the Smokies that I'll share, in particular the percentage of kids by school system who look to their school cafeterias for TWO FREE MEALS PER DAY because their families can't afford to feed them. Read it and weep:

Sevier County 57.6%...in the backyard of GSMNP!
Blount County 43.9%
Alcoa City 52.3%
Maryville City 23.4%
Knox County 39.8%
Statewide 52.9%

(link...)

FYI, lunch in Knox County elementary schools costs $9.25 per week. If this many TN families can't come up with $9.25 in lunch money Monday through Friday, what makes you think they'll have $35.00 (in Andy's scenario of $10 gas/$25 admission fee) to go on a picnic in a *public* park come Saturday?

We grilled out tonight with some of our "poor" neighbors (actually, both our families *do* pay for our kids' school lunches), and they say they can't pay $35 to go on a picnic in a *public* park, either.

The problem of inadequate funding for our *public* parks is the consequence of inadequate taxation, poor allocation, or both. Thrusting that problem downward in the form of flat (read regressive) user fees is not an acceptable solution.

Why can't more of us on this list, of all places, recognize a "flat tax" when we see it? I've certainly posted a bit on the subject of how TN's "flat taxes" have resulted in the state having the #1 growth rate in income inequality in the US, and I've read on C. L. Petro's site this week about the same problem growing at the national level.

More of us here should recognize and object to such schemes immediately, intuitively, and loudly. I'm very troubled in this thread that we seemingly do not.

Those are words you don't hear with Yosemite, the Redwoods, Bryce or any of these other Parks.

Yes, agreed. These parks are just not as accessible to the large East Coast population as the GSM.

Numbers, numbers equals money, money.

First of all, they are not going to charge admission fees to GSM unless they do a blanket plan for all the lands under the National parks service.

If they did do a blanket plan it would not mean any additional money coming to help preserve GSM. There the term 'preserve' needs to be defined. Does that mean more camp grounds and hotels inside the Park?

Before they did such a plan those locos in DC would first try to sell the concept of Park Privatization. Microsoft Presents Yellowstone, BP Oil welcomes you to The GSM... and that would happen at the same time they talk about opening up NPS lands for oil, coal and natural gas exploration. Oh wait, there was a plan...

(link...)

No one knows the real number of park visitors like the Tourism Boards and the folks who work the Parks.

(link...)

I have a problem with a fee for US 441, perhaps because I see it as transportation as well as recreation.

I would very much like to see a hefty fee charged for taking a private vehicle through Cades cove, with a reduction for cars with handicap tags. Money raised would go for free or low cost trollies.

Oh and a pass for descendants of the residents. Settlers and Cherokee alike.

___________________________________
Less is the new More - Karrie Jacobs

So can we please look at this funding issue from the stand point that there are no plans for admission fees to GSM? That is where we are today. I am not saying we should not watch out for changes, but today is where I would like to focus. Making a plan today for the long range preservation of the Park.

If we do that then we can look at how we can best help our beloved Park.

Is a donation to Friends of GSM the way to go?
Is restricting cars in Cades Cove Loop the way to go?

I have no problem making a donation but the restricting of cars has all kinds of possibilities and problems. And since the Mello Family members are considered to be job gypsies, I have some background on that auto restriction deal.

Yosemite has and is considering the same thing. If you want to get into the Valley certain groups want you to only get there by bus/trolley. It sounded like a wonderful idea until we went looking for places to park the cars while folks were on those day bus trips.

I say day trips because the idea was that folks who would be staying in the valley proper, either camping or in the hotel would most likely get to take their cars into the valley proper.

Much like GSM, Yosemite has the equivalent of Cade's Cove loop and that is the Valley loop proper. And like GSM, you can enter into the Park and not go to the Valley floor but take a less traveled route to other places in the Park- just like 411.

And much like the sentiments of Mariposa and Oak Hurst in CA, my view of turning Townsend into a parking lot is not really a favorable one. Making a big parking lot inside the GSM Park is out of the question too.

Now is the time to get your opinions on the subject heard.
(link...)

All things are connected. When someones ask if, my first response is always WHY? Then I go off looking for the answers.

about charging admission to enter the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. This would alleviate major financial problems that the park faces

I said earlier there is zero reason to believe that charging admission would mean that our GSM Park would get those fees aka extra dollars. Knowing that, I simply tried to get some other folks to offer options on how else we might help preserve/protect the Park- because it is important that we do preserve it.

Then again, charging fees just might bring a few more federal dollars to the Park but I highly doubt it.

Sorry, but Tamara, you know what happens when You Give a Moose a Muffin :-)

And when I am I will be the first to admit it.

(link...)

What is the National Park Service Entrance Fee Used For?

The Recreation Fee Program allows many parks to obtain needed funding for a backlog of maintenance and improvement projects. As the number of visitors continues to climb, government funding has not kept pace with the demand on the public lands facilities upkeep. Currently, parks who collect entrance or recreation use fees retain 80% of the funds for visitor related projects and infrastructure repair. The remaining 20% goes into a national account that is available to parks that don't collect fees. Recreation Use Fees -or entrance fees- are used for repairs and improvements to roads, buildings, campgrounds and trails; improved sign and exhibits; educational programs, guided walks and hikes, and other visitor activities; natural habitat protection; stabilization and restoration of historic structures; and for visitor safety and protection.

I found that info on several NPS websites. Can't find what happens to the money when a person buys an annual pass at any Park.

Of course, it does not change the fact that the compact ( as stated when GSM became a park) was for it to remain free to visitors.

And apparently the use of fees and who gets them has changed in the last ten years too.

(link...)

Not taking sides on this, because I could go either way and there is some great discussion and arguments pro and con.

But...

On our trips out West, our first stop at any National Park has included purchase of a Golden Eagle Pass. For $65 you and your carload get into any National Park and BLM/Forest Serive/othr lands for one year. There's a National Park only version for $50. Either of those seems pretty reasonable.

Heck, I pay $40 or something every year for a TN fishing license and trout stamp that I rarely if ever use, and I don't even need the trout stamp to fish in GSMNP streams.

Because when I was kid, most parks, wilderness areas, and museums were free, I guess it's a little hard to accept the fact that these places could charge anything.

Admittedly, a bit scholarly for my age, I spent every weekend from age ten upward at the Field Museum of Natural History enraptured by the Egyptian mummies, the dinosaur bones, and the Greek halls filled with alabaster statues. Every display taught me something; every exhibit opened new worlds.

Alternately, I'd scoot on over to the Museum of Science and Industry, and I know that the things I learned there helped form the basis for most of my knowledge today. Inside that long Greek-style building, they exhibited and explained everything from modern communications (the telephone back then), to birth, to coal mining.

And then there was also the Shedd Aquarium and the Lincoln Historical Society and the Lincoln Park Zoo. These were all free, and I still remember the way I felt when my father told me Marshal Field had wanted the museum to always be free for all schoolchildren. I swooned over that generous man. I felt he really cared about me, and that made me feel important, and worthwhile.

They say you can tell what a civilization worships by looking at its most magnificent buildings. Back then it was the glorious museums of art, science and history, and churches. Today if you look at most city skylines, the fabulous buildings tend to be commercial. They usually house banks, insurance companies, or other big corporations.

I guess my early encounters with all the free places of knowledge, given to me by my city and country during my formative years, has biased my feelings about entrance fees.

Just the thought that some little kid might not ever be able to see the Smokies or visit a famous museum or get into a zoo just because their parents can't or won't pay an entrance fee, makes me feel unbelievably sad. To me culture is like mother's milk. Every kid ought to be able to get it, and it ought to be free.

By the way, schools back then supplied every single thing you needed, including transportation, all books, full pencil boxes, crayons, and notebooks.

The annual pass is now $80, and there is no option to just buy a less costly NPS-only version. "Carload" is limited to four adults.

I can't believe there is actually a debate about this. There shouldn't be a fee to enter ANY of our national parks. They've never been free--we pay for them every April 15th. Our parents and grandparents paid, and hopefully the parks will still be around for future generations to pay for. If they're underfunded, then everyone can dig a little deeper on tax day, not just the mini van that pulls up to the unwelcome gate at the Badlands and finds out it's $15 just to drive through for a change of scenery on the way to Mount Rushmore (which, btw, is free to drive by, but $8 to park).

If the fees are meant to discourage people from visiting, then... well, that's pretty cold.

As usual, you're arguing about something completely different. This started when Andy because said he didn't any sympathy for the people displaced when the Smoky Mtn NP was establised because "what about the Cherokee?" I took that as a big "Eff You" to those people, and still do.

Meanwhile, you're trying to convince me that Indians once lived in the park before white men. Well, no duh.

Indians lived all over the place in America. Ever notice those big mounds on the UT Ag campus, or in Cherokee Park in Sequoyah Hills? Ever notice how places around here have funny names like Hiwassee, Ocoee, and Pellissippi? Here's a hint - even though they vowels at the end they weren't named by the Italians.

If people are undeserving of being driven off of their land because the Indians got driven off first, then I guess nobody gets any sympathy, because we're all living on Indian land. You, me, Andy, everybody.

The Indians got screwed in a big way. There are ways of saying that without simultaneously giving the bird to a bunch of poor subsistence farmers.

www.lesjones.com

* <--- my point       what metulj is arguing about---> *