Regardless of whether you are a conservative or a liberal, people don’t care for hypocrites. But there are vary degrees of hypocrisy. Every once in a while someone wins the prize and this Sunday was one of those times.
The Editor of the Knoxville News Sentinel Jack McElroy has outdone himself in an Editorial column he wrote Sunday titled, “Ombudsman would help shine light”. In this championship Pot and Kettle column Mr. McElroy makes the case that since the Knox County Commission is so corrupt and untrustworthy that they need an Ombudsman to keep them on the straight and narrow so they won't violate the Sunshine Law.
Editor McElroy writes, “That's why the News Sentinel is suing the County Commission over its violations of the Tennessee Open Meetings Act. It's also why the plan to create an open-government ombudsman is a good idea.”
God help save us from reformers that have blinders on.
Where there violations of the Sunshine Law by the office of the Knox County Mayor during the wheel tax? How about during the Midway Industrial Park fiasco?
Where was the Reformer Jack McElroy then? Surely this is not a one way street is it?
The Pandora’s box of this is that if Reformer McElroy wins his lawsuit against the Knox County Commission a precedent will be set and more lawsuits will follow. Will Gary Sellers sue to have a redo on the Wheel Tax? Will the people of the Thorngrove Community sue to have a redo on the vote for the Midway Industrial Park? Will the Knox County Mayor have to sit through hours of depositions?
There is a need for an Ombudsman, but that need is at the Knoxville News Sentinel. Someone needs to take the blinders off the Reformer McElroy. Maybe a look at the News Sentinel's Ethics Policy would be a prudent move also.
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hypocrite
I think McElroy is a hypocrite or the editorial staff in general. While I enjoyed the coverage of county commission, on most local and national races the Sentinel just quotes what operatives say and looks no further. Maybe this is a start of in-depth reporting, we'll see. Also, its fine for the Sentinel to harp on Scott Moore's relatives and Fred Thompson for days and days and days, but if Don Williams or David Hunter ever wanted to do the same about a candidate the paper was supporting they were said to be having a "drumbeat" on the same subject too often. Stacey
Where there violations of
Where there violations of the Sunshine Law by the office of the Knox County Mayor during the wheel tax?
Yes, where were they? Please enlighten us?
You do know the Sunshine Law doesn't apply to members of the executive branch meeting with one another, don't you?
Wheel Tax
How many secret meetings do you think occurred to get 10 commissioners to agree to vote for the blackmail property tax (probably illegal) to become effective in case the wheel tax was repealed by referendum?
We're seeing selective Sunshine and selective Ethics. -- s.
Sandra, I agree with you
Sandra,
I agree with you about selective ethics - there are ethical violations all over the place.
But #9 is fussing only about Ragsdale violating Sunshine, not Commission. Hence my post.
Hence, you were wrong...
But #9 is fussing only about Ragsdale violating Sunshine, not Commission. Hence my post.
Where there meetings at Mayor Ragsdale's private residence and office with many Knox County Commissioners present, to organize the response to the Wheel Tax petition? This is not a secret. It just isn't well known. Wasn't in the Sentinel. Think anyone will own up to it? Without a order for deposition that is.
Is it the height of hypocrisy to have Reformer McElroy carry your water when you have done worse? Does anyone actually believe this McElroy lawsuit is merely a coincidence?
So the Executive Branch of local government isn't held to the Sunshine Law and neither is the General Assembly. Isn't that a pretty hypocritical law?
Wasn't in the Sentinel.
Wasn't in the Sentinel. Think anyone will own up to it? Without a order for deposition that is.
Well, if no one will "own up to it" you can't blame the KNS for not printing it. They can't print speculation and rumor. I've had reporters tell me lots of times that they know they have a story but they can't get it printed because they don't have sufficient verification. As it should be.
Look, I really don't understand why you feel the need to attack McElroy personally. I've got my complaints about how the KNS handles various things, but I can't see what your problem is with the lawsuit they're bringing.
Commission - rather blatantly and admittedly (remember "this is a unanimous decision by the two of us"?) - violated Sunshine. The KNS thinks that's wrong. I do too.
And yeah, it's happened before. So maybe somebody should have done something sooner. But the actions of and surrounding 1/31 rose to such egregious levels that I'm glad somebody finally did something.
So the Executive Branch of local government isn't held to the Sunshine Law and neither is the General Assembly. Isn't that a pretty hypocritical law?
Yes. Still doesn't give Commission an excuse to violate it.
And how exactly - not snarky here, just curious - would you apply it to the exec branch? Since the Mayor and his dept heads must talk dozens of times each week, would you try to Sunshine all of those conversations? Or do you have other suggestions? Perhaps Sunshine would only apply if there was a quorom of dept heads? (Ok, that was snarky.)
Open your eyes...take off the blinders...
I've got my complaints about how the KNS handles various things, but I can't see what your problem is with the lawsuit they're bringing.
The blackmail tax dwarfs anything ever done in the history of Knox County government. Did a quorum of Commissioners meet at the Mayors request to create the blackmail tax with the Mayor present? Where was the righteous reformer then?
Which one thing would make for more open government in Knox County, a redo of the January 31st appointments, a new County Mayor, or a new Editor of the News Sentinel?
Did a quorum of
Did a quorum of Commissioners meet at the Mayors request to create the blackmail tax with the Mayor present?
I dunno. Did they? Can you prove it?
And back to quorum again - the damn law says TWO OR MORE.
Enough; I've got real work to do today.
We will find out...
And back to quorum again - the damn law says TWO OR MORE.
Should we expect more lawsuits to redo the Wheel Tax blackmail vote and the Midway Industrial Park due to Sunshine Law violations?
To save money should we have depositions in three part harmony? How about a form? Please check each vote in violation of the Sunshine Law. Should we have a redo convention. A marathon County Commission meeting lasting for weeks to revote every questioned vote?
You see what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.
The only people happy about this charade are the attorneys. The Sunshine Law as written is bad law.
The irony of all of this is that the County Mayor and daily paper have gone to war to remove Lee Tramel and replace him with Scott Davis.
Do you think the Storm Water ordinance is the Holy Grail of this battle?
Do you think the Storm Water
Do you think the Storm Water ordinance is the Holy Grail of this battle?
WTF? You might be surprised to find out what I know & think about the stormwater ordinance. And BTW, some of your buddies on Commission have been and will be right in there supporting what developers want in this ordinance.
Tell us about the stormwater ordinance...
Do you think the Storm Water ordinance is the Holy Grail of this battle?
WTF? You might be surprised to find out what I know & think about the stormwater ordinance. And BTW, some of your buddies on Commission have been and will be right in there supporting what developers want in this ordinance.
Oh do tell. After all there has been so little news coverage. We could use your leadership Rachel.
What would Scott Davis do? (WWSDD)
What would Victor Jernigan do? (WWVJD)
Would it surprise you to know that fixing the stormwater mess will cost more than the Sheriff's pension? More than the Wheel Tax? Where is the reformer McElroy when you really need him?
Did you know that the Ragsdale administration has been playing a game of chicken with both TDEC and the Feds? Of course they are playing chicken with your car and your pocketbook.
But where can we find some information? Where indeed?
So I can't tell - are you
So I can't tell - are you worried that the stormwater ordinance is inadequate or that it's going to cost a lot $$ to fix it?
I'm off to an appt, but I'll just say that I've been pretty much on top of the stormwater ordinance since I did an assessment of the Beaver Creek Watershed for the County about 6 years ago. Also, I have a spouse who works in water quality and we like to talk about this stuff.
So... let's talk stormwater, if you like.
Actually...
So I can't tell - are you worried that the stormwater ordinance is inadequate or that it's going to cost a lot $$ to fix it?
Both.
That's it? Don't want to
That's it? Don't want to talk stormwater specifics? Another ordinance you haven't actually read?
Both is the answer...
That's it? Don't want to talk stormwater specifics?
TDEC and the Feds tell Knox County government, get your act together or pay big fines. The result, after pandering to developers nothing is done for years.
Now the big bad wolf is coming down the street and the elected folk have to figure out what to do. Disappoint the developers and the money dries up. Piss off TDEC and the Feds and get $25,000 a day fines.
This is the great failure of the Ragsdale administration.
Gee, what should they do? You tell me.
This is what is at stake.
TDEC and the Feds tell Knox
TDEC and the Feds tell Knox County government, get your act together or pay big fines. The result, after pandering to developers nothing is done for years.
Ok, I pretty much agree with that. But what would "getting your act together" look like? What should be in the ordinance?
And BTW, what do you think about the County's deal with the City re stormwater in the Growth Policy Agreement? Has the County lived up to it?
Questions no one can answer...
Ok, I pretty much agree with that. But what would "getting your act together" look like? What should be in the ordinance?
And BTW, what do you think about the County's deal with the City re stormwater in the Growth Policy Agreement? Has the County lived up to it?
Depends on who you ask. R. Larry Smith and Victor Jernigan have a much different take on this than Farmer McMillan. Ask the Homebuilders Association of Knox County what they think. Then ask civil engineers.
It doesn't matter. In the end Knox County will do what TDEC and the Feds tell them to do.
We have been here before. This is how the City of Knoxville messed up the sewer system so badly that the City "gave" it to KUB. More like they pawned it off.
EPA let the City know they had to spend tens of millions to get into compliance so the City dumped the mess into KUB's lap. Guess who gets to pay for the now hundreds of millions of dollars to make it right?
Go on, guess.
The taxpayers? No, that is not correct.
The ratepayers? Bingo, you win, unless you are a KUB customer. Then you lose.
Want to know how it gets worse? The lack of solutions to deal with the stormwater problem makes the KUB problem worse.
Perfect. Civil engineers know that any problem can be solved if you have enough money. Politicians know if they ignore the problem long enough someone else will fix it.
At the end of the food chain are ratepayers and taxpayers. Well, shit does run downhill.
I asked: But what would
I asked: But what would "getting your act together" look like? What should be in the ordinance?
Nine replied: Depends on who you ask. R. Larry Smith and Victor Jernigan have a much different take on this than Farmer McMillan. Ask the Homebuilders Association of Knox County what they think. Then ask civil engineers.
But I didn't ask any of them. They're not discussing this here at Randy's place. I asked you.
I also asked: And BTW, what do you think about the County's deal with the City re stormwater in the Growth Policy Agreement? Has the County lived up to it?
I see you're dodging that one completely.
Let's talk about this some more after you do some homework.
The answer was there...
But I didn't ask any of them. They're not discussing this here at Randy's place. I asked you.
It doesn't matter. In the end Knox County will do what TDEC and the Feds tell them to do.
I also asked: And BTW, what do you think about the County's deal with the City re stormwater in the Growth Policy Agreement? Has the County lived up to it?
It doesn't matter. In the end Knox County will do what TDEC and the Feds tell them to do.
Ask the spouse, that is the correct answer.
Correct answer
Well, it's your answer and you're obviously sticking to it.
So I guess that's the end of that "discussion." 'Night, folks.
Or,...
...given how extremely tight local funds were just before and just after the state sales tax increase in '02, maybe Ragsdale didn't have to hold *any* meetings to line up 10 votes for a property tax prior to enactment of the wheel tax.
Or, if he did hold any secret meetings to line up 10 votes, maybe he held 10 separate meetings (which is OK under the Sunshine Law).
Or, if he did hold any secret meetings to line up 10 votes, and he held only 5 or fewer meetings with 2 or more Commissioners at each meeting (which is not OK under the Sunshine Law), maybe those meetings were so secret the N-S didn't know about them or maybe the N-S wasn't able to establish grounds for a lawsuit.
If he did hold any secret meetings to line up 10 votes, *and* he held only 5 or fewer meetings with 2 or more Commissioners at each meeting, *and* the N-S knew all about it, *and* the N-S could have easily have filed a lawsuit (and I seriously doubt that all of these conditions were met), it still doesn't change my support for McElroy's current lawsuit.
In the present instance, McElroy and the N-S are doing what is right--and on our behalf, I might add. How could anyone fail to support that?
(The question is rhetorical, Nine. If you choose to try answering it anyway, I won't be drawn into any inane dialog.)
#9, I don't personally know
#9, I don't personally know KNS's intent in filing the lawsuit but I do see a monumental difference between the gov't actions you use to set up your "hypocrisy argument".
Wheel tax, Midway, etc. = a commission vote involving _a_ single policy.
Jan 31 = several commission votes whose result will effect _all_ future votes on policy.
Please tell me you can fathom this distinction.
I thought I had addressed this...
#9, I don't personally know KNS's intent in filing the lawsuit but I do see a monumental difference between the gov't actions you use to set up your "hypocrisy argument".
Wheel tax, Midway, etc. = a commission vote involving _a_ single policy.
Jan 31 = several commission votes whose result will effect _all_ future votes on policy.
Let me address it specifically.
What change has there been between any of these votes? It is clear Commission believes the Sunshine Law refers to a quorum. Right or wrong they have been consistent.
The difference is when the County Mayor gets his way. The Wheel Tax and the Midway Vote were two of the most expensive votes in Commission history. Of course the daily paper writes that only the Sheriff's Pension can cause property taxes to go up, somehow the Midway Industrial Park has no affect on property taxes.
Scott proffers the argument that it is okay to ignore the law for a single vote but since the January 31st vote was to fill the appointments it somehow has greater gravity.
No, I don't get that. The least common denominator is when The County Mayor gets his way.