Thu
Mar 8 2007
09:03 am
If appointed I will not serve
By: R. Neal

The KNS reports that Tommy Schumpert was never asked if he wanted to be on the newly formed Knox County Ethics Committee and that he won't serve. Scooby has an entertaining explanation for the faux pas: It's all Jack McElroy's fault.

Topics:
Bbeanster's picture

Are these guys really that

Submitted by Bbeanster on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 9:50am.

Are these guys really that dumb?

A simple google search (not to mention a conversation with their attorney) would tell them that conversations with potential appointees are permitted.

(link...)

Simply Ridiculous's picture

Apparently they are..

Submitted by Simply Ridiculous on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 9:59am.

I was just wondering after I read this how long it will take Scott Moore to understand the law and it's intent. Yes, apprently they are that dumb.

Number9's picture

The other way to look at it...

Submitted by Number9 on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:00am.

is that this is the future of government. The Sunshine Law has to be clarified.

Who can figure out what is discussion, which is allowed, and what is deliberation, which is forbidden. Rachel gave a dictionary definition of discussion and deliberation last week but the problem is that the two are similar enough for subjective opinion to make it a problem.

Moore said, "If this is the way we have to operate, people aren't going to know anything until after the commission meeting," Moore said. If commissioners can't discuss matters ahead of time, he said, "Government's going to come to a screeching halt."

Under this idea of the Sunshine Law that everything must be done in Commission meetings it changes government process to where it resembles a courtroom and the Commissioners are jurors. No discussion outside the jury box.

You might as well call the two man interpretation of the Sunshine Law the "government inefficiency act". Forbidding discussion will grind government to a halt.

Of course the result is that what were once 6 hour meetings will now become 16 hour meetings. The poor schmuck at the end of the agenda will get short attention at 11:00 PM when everyone is tired and wants to go home to bed.

Mr. McElroy does no one a service by offering to settle this lawsuit. It needs to go to court so a ruling on the Sunshine Law can be made. It is so vague as to be meaningless. So subjective as to be confusing.

What's up with Mr. McElroy's rumor filled blog post from yesterday? Mr. McElroy wrote, "We keep getting hints through informal channels that the County Commission -- at least part of it -- would like to settle our Sunshine Law suit." Informal channels?

Stay the course Mr. McElroy and finish what you started. This needs to go to court to be clarified.

rocketsquirrel's picture

and the correct way to look at this

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:06am.

is that obstructionist commissioners are playing coy games with "I don't understand the law" instead of leading our county with grace and decorum.

Simply Ridiculous's picture

You hit the nail on the head

Submitted by Simply Ridiculous on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:11am.

rocketsquirrel. And those of us who know how Scott Moore plays his games understand that this is just his whining and trying to lay the blame on someone other than himself. His motto has always been 'if I can make others look worse, maybe I won't looks so bad myself'.

Ennui's picture

Amen squirrel. He can't be

Submitted by Ennui on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:48am.

Amen squirrel. He can't be that stupid. This is a ploy.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

&*#@!

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:13am.

Nine, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, NO BASIS UNDER LOGIC, LAW, OR SANITY FOR YOUR ASSERTION THAT THE SUNSHINE LAW PRECLUDES A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL FROM ASKING A PROSPECTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBER IF HE MIGHT BE WILLING TO SERVE ON THAT COMMITTEE!!!

ARE YOU RELATED TO SCOTT MOORE BY AGENDA OR BLOODLINE???

Number9's picture

Tamara,

Submitted by Number9 on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 1:11pm.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, NO BASIS UNDER LOGIC, LAW, OR SANITY FOR YOUR ASSERTION THAT THE SUNSHINE LAW PRECLUDES A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL FROM ASKING A PROSPECTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBER IF HE MIGHT BE WILLING TO SERVE ON THAT COMMITTEE!!!

ARE YOU RELATED TO SCOTT MOORE BY AGENDA OR BLOODLINE???

Did I write any assertion about what you are screaming about? No, I did not.

You made it clear you support the County Mayor to some extent, so is it fair to ask if you have an agenda?

I made a simple point which a few people have agreed with, that the Tennessee Sunshine Law is vague and poorly written. I linked the revised Alabama Sunshine Law which I wrote was superior to both the Tennessee and Florida Sunshine Laws.

My agenda, since you asked so politely, is to see the Sunshine Law of Tennessee written to where it can be understood. I believe for efficient government the Sunshine Law should refer to a quorum. I have patiently explained that numerous times. Even R. Neal questions the Tennessee Sunshine Law and expressed that it needs more clarity. I concur.

Have I insulted you or used ad hominem attacks with you? This is a forum. People will have different viewpoints. I am not for Metro Government. I question the policies and methods of the County Mayor. I want more efficient open government. No one owns me. I am not related to or owned by anyone in local or state government. I also don't do any work with local or state government. But thanks for asking in such a pleasant and polite way.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

To Number 9

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 2:47pm.

1) This thread offers an opportunity for posters to discuss procedural lapses in the manner Commissioners went about forming an Ethics Committee.
2) It is obvious that procedural lapses occurred in that process because it has come to light that someone appointed to the Ethics Committee was never contacted to ask if he might serve.
3) My letter, copied above, indicates how Commissioners should have employed standard organizational procedures, none of them in violation of TN Sunshine Law, to form the Ethics Committee.
4) Your defense of Commissioners' procedural lapses and your argument that those lapses were the consequence of an *ambiguous* TN Sunshine Law make no sense, given that Mark Siegel directed you to the *unambiguous* text of the TN Sunshine Law in the same conversational thread you link in your comments to me now.
5) I had also directed you to the text of the TN Sunshine Law at findlaw.com before Mark copied you with the text.
6) Since you are apparently unwilling to read the text of the TN Sunshine Law, many people in many conversations have reiterated to you that the text indicates that two or more elected officeholders may not confer outside the view of the public.
7) A question Randy previously raised on how the text of the TN Sunshine Law read was answered in the same conversational thread you link in your comments to me now. Randy also acknowledged his understanding of the text and withdrew his question in that thread.
8) Irrespective of my points #4, 5, 6, and 7, it is impossible to understand why you suggest that the TN Sunshine Law, which prohibits two or more officeholders from conferring outside the view of the public, might prohibit a Commissioner from speaking with a private citizen about his willingness to voluntarily serve on the Ethics Committee.
9) Your comments on the Alabama Sunshine Law are not relevant in any way to this discussion.
10) Your comments on metro government are not relevant in any way to this discussion.
11) Your comments on "the policies and methods of the County Mayor" are not relevant in any way to this discussion.
12) Based on your comments, my question as to whether you are related to Scott Moore by aganda or bloodline is the kinder of two conclusions I might have drawn.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to give this discussion any further attention, so I won't be.

Number9's picture

Again I must ask,

Submitted by Number9 on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 3:14pm.

it is impossible to understand why you suggest that the TN Sunshine Law, which prohibits two or more officeholders from conferring outside the view of the public, might prohibit a Commissioner from speaking with a private citizen about his willingness to voluntarily serve on the Ethics Committee.

Where did I write that?

Rachel's picture

Rachel gave a dictionary

Submitted by Rachel on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 12:12pm.

Rachel gave a dictionary definition of discussion and deliberation last week but the problem is that the two are similar enough for subjective opinion to make it a problem.

I did no such thing - I proferred an example, not a "dictonary definition."

Scott Moore knows very well that this wouldn't have violated the Sunshine Law. If he doesn't, he need to ask Ownings to give him a primer on it.

Knoxville City Council tries hard to observe the Sunshine Law and their meetings go just fine.

BTW, the Knoxville Mayor makes appointments to various positions all the time. Many of these have to be approved by Council. I've never once known the person not to have been asked if they were willing to serve before Council voted on them.

In fact, I think this is about the dumbest thing I've heard from Scoobie - at least this week.

Johnny Ringo's picture

You might as well call the

Submitted by Johnny Ringo on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 5:39pm.

You might as well call the two man interpretation of the Sunshine Law the "government inefficiency act". Forbidding discussion will grind government to a halt.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Smith responded to letter

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Sat, 2007/03/10 - 12:53am.

I meant to share with you earlier today that the letter I sent all 19 commissioners on Thursday, chastising them for their botched efforts in forming the Ethics Committee, netted one return telephone call from a Commissioner.

Larry Smith phoned Thursday night, expressing his frustration with Commission generally, and with his seatmate in District 7 particularly. He does feel, though, that they must somehow form a stronger relationship to work together for their district.

I had left my own District 6 Commissioner Sharon Cawood a phone message to indicate that it was not my intention to scold her. Lumpy, whom I hadn't phoned, didn't check in.

CL's picture

I think Moore's reasoning

Submitted by CL on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:54am.

I think Moore's reasoning was that he didn't want to ask Schumpert to serve without any idea of what other commissioners thought. If he had discussed it with him and he wanted to serve, it would have been embarrassing to have him voted down.

Mark Siegel's picture

More embarrassing than what happened?

Submitted by Mark Siegel on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 10:58am.

If he had discussed it with him and he wanted to serve, it would have been embarrassing to have him voted down.

rocketsquirrel's picture

oh

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 11:00am.

oh, so it's about political power and personal embarrassment? Funny, I thought it was about ethics and a strong ethics committee.

my bad.

I repeat, coy games vs. grace and decorum. Real leaders take a hit for the team, even if their own nominee might be voted down, as long as the end result means a good committee, properly and publicly debated upon.

Unfortunately, this isn't about ethics. this is about using an ethics committee to embarrass political opponents.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Letter to KC Commission

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 12:05pm.

March 8, 2007
4612 Meredith Rd.
Knoxville, TN 37921

RE: Botched effort to form Knox County Ethics Committee

Dear Knox County Commissioners:

This is not rocket science.

In the last three or four years, I have served on the boards of seven different local organizations, each and every one charged with an annual responsibility to solicit new board and committee members for the upcoming year.

In each and every one of these organizations, the universal practice of soliciting new board or committee members was followed, in this manner:

1) The deliberative body meets as a whole to name a nominating committee.
2) Members named to the nominating committee work individually to contact prospective board and committee members for the upcoming year, explaining the work entailed in each position and assessing the interest level of each prospective member contacted.
3) Members of the nominating committee then meet openly as a group, just as any committee would, to share their individual slates of prospective nominees, to discuss the strengths each potential nominee might bring to the task, and to arrive jointly at the slate of nominees their committee will recommend to the full deliberative body.
4) Members of the nominating committee then present their recommended slate of nominees to the full deliberative body. (Most likely, the nominating committee will see its recommended nominees approved with little or no discussion, since the vote placing those persons on the nominating committee may be viewed as a vote of confidence that those nominating committee members are qualified to make good recommendations.)
5) The nominating committee then contacts *all* persons solicited to serve, thanking those not selected and informing those that were of when and how their new responsibilities will begin.

Any member of any organization who possesses extremely narrow life experiences or little common sense may refer to Robert's Rules of Order for particulars.

Sincerely,
Tamara G. Shepherd
(865) 947-0660

(e-address for Commission is knoxcom@esper.com)

CL's picture

It would have been an

Submitted by CL on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 11:15am.

It would have been an embarrassment to Schumpert, not Moore.

SnM's picture

Embarrassment

Submitted by SnM on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 11:39am.

"Unfortunately, this isn't about ethics. this is about using an ethics committee to embarrass political opponents."

Instead, it's just embarrassing us.

Amish's picture

Can't say I blame Schumpert.

Submitted by Amish on Thu, 2007/03/08 - 3:56pm.

Can't say I blame Schumpert. I'd decline an opportunity to join the Washington Generals, too.

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