Sen. Raymond Finney"

Although the first twitch is that of hands up and jaws down, if you had heard Sen. Finnely (he has spoken at our church) you might slow down. He is a very faith based person and the majority of those who heard him agreed with him on a number of subjects. He has a very strong argument against abortion that is founded in scripture, but I have never heard him talk about creation?

The plan he has in Nashville is to try for an answer that is not there and then demand that two other thoughts be taught side by side with evolution. This one won't go away very fast because of the heat the entire subject generates. I just wish those men down their would spend more time on fixing Ten Care and less on something that was put to rest in 1925.

So the majority of Doug Sager's followers agreed with Finney?

There's a surprise.

Until this Senator comes up with scientific evidence of the universe's creation through a Creator, he should keep this idiocy out of the science curriculum. The reason we don't teach it in science is because it's, by definition, not falsifiable, whereas evolution and big bang theory are. Scripture is not falsifiable either - except in literary and theological debate.

So the majority of Doug Sager's followers agreed with Finney?"

Never said I was in the majority! LOL
As for your dislike of Doug, what can I say...he is a very powerful man with very black and white thoughts. I don't agree on all he says by a long shot but at least he has no fear in saying them and from the crowd the church generates every Sunday I have to think someone is agreeing with the man?

As for the abortion issue if a child is alive it should be saved, very simple to me but others just don't see it that way.

Inherit The Wind is one of my favorite movies, everyone should dust it off again and check it out.

Abortion is a complex moral issue and can be decided with moral suasion. Scientific falsifiability is only a small part of the abortion debate (i.e. what a fetus can and cannot do at certain stages of development). But the origins of the universe debate must be either conducted along the lines of falsifiability or not. If not, then it is a purely theological/philosophical debate and should be kept out of the science class. By definition, science must be falsifiable. Finney's entire premise is completely backward. Nobody can falsify (or verify) the existence of a Creator. Failure to do so does not mean creationism is a valid scientific alternative to evolution.

I'm ashamed that Sen. Raymond Finney of the 8th District is from Blount Co.

I'm ashamed that Sen. Raymond Finney of the 8th District is from Blount Co."

As you know there are many problems Nashville needs to be dealing with without digging up old issues. As for your shame, on one hand you sure have the right to be on the other, you really should hear this man talk. Again, I sure don't agree with most of what he says, but he can hold a crowd as well as most who rule over at the capitol.

Evolution, big bang, whatever you want to call it.. is something everyone can talk about and never come to a meeting of the minds. If you are a believer or a pagan, either way it will be hard to prove your side of the question.

The Big deal for law makers should be to improve life today and not worry how it all started. Sen. Finney needs to work on the smoking ban and Ten Care with the same emotion he is using to push this old agenda, then we might all agree with the man.

I've had plenty enough interaction with Finney. This is just the icing on the cake. He's an old fool and a hypocrite who is, unfortunately, representing the majority view of his backwoods constituency. And you should learn to spell TennCare.

Is his constituency really that backwoods? He represents Blount and Sevier County, right? Some of it is backwoods but a lot of it is pretty well-educated. Why is a man from this region saying this stuff?

And you should learn to spell TennCare."

Ten Care is a major issue if you know someone who had it and then lost it. It was put together too fast and cracked under all the fraud that it generated. I had no idea you knew the man, I only heard him speak at church 3 or 4 times and never actually met him. You know him much better than I do and if what you are saying is correct then this entire issue sounds like just another one of his off the wall ideas?

As for the shot at the church, Ms Bean that is way below you. Remember even those of us who almost never agree with Doug still attend for a bigger reason. You should try visiting a church that is bound by believers it can be a very calming and wonderful experience. Also thank you for your stories on the fire department!

As for my spelling, my mind is not as good as it used to be and it shows when I type. Tenn Care...thanks I will try to remember to correct it next time.

Is his constituency really that backwoods?

(link...)

Time to organize a chapter of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in Tennessee: (link...)

I find it interesting that his 2007 constituent legislative survey does not mention this topic. If you look at what he does ask about, however, there definitely appears to be an agenda.

(link...)

He also did not ask about this on his 2006 survey. The results, however, reveal a fairly conservative point of view among respondents. They also give him a very high score as compared to the General Assembly overall.

(link...)

The start of the monthly school board meeting in Blount County, Tennessee begins with a prayer. "Lord we come before you tonight and giving you thanks for all your blessings."

Eugenie Scott is afraid what's happened in Blount County will happen elsewhere around the country, too.

The prayer continues, "Lord, we know that you have set these people in these positions."

Did I miss something? What is wrong with prayer? We should thank god that the meetings start with a request for guidance, is that a problem now???

DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE? IT'S AN ARTICLE ABOUT BLOUNT COUNTY BANNING BIOLOGY I.E. SCIENCE TEXTBOOKS THAT MENTION EVOLUTION OR DO NOT INCLUDE CREATIONISM INSTRUCTION. TWICE. AND IT PROVIDES A PRETTY GOOD OVERVIEW OF THE POLITICAL CLIMATE AMONG FINNEY'S CONSTITUENCY WHICH THE PREVIOUS POSTER ASKED ABOUT.

Is that clearer?

As for prayer for meetings and asking 'god' (with a litte 'g' as you wrote it) for guidance, to which 'god' should we pray at public meetings?

As for prayer for meetings and asking 'god' (with a litte 'g' as you wrote it) for guidance, to which 'god' should we pray at public meetings?"

Please don't shout, we are just talking OK?

As for which god or God that answer is so easy. If you have read the bible then you know the answer.

Again, spelling is an issue God or god and I know it but getting upset over a linked blog story is not a good way to start your day or mine. I am sorry i upset you.

Question for you, LV. Is it a sin for you to pray to Allah?

SKB flashback, Apr. 5, 2003:

This just in from the buckle of the Bible belt...

The Blount County School Board apparently knows more about science than scientists and textbook authors. They have decided to ban science textbooks that discuss evolution. They are instructing science teachers to develop a curriculum that teaches creationism. Presumably, the new standard Blount County science textbook will be the King James Bible. Are we not men? We are Devo.

SKB: Jan. 9, 2005:

Blount County Schools vote to teach Intelligent Design as an alternative to evolution. Same product ("creationism"), different package.

I noticed that every single member of the Blounty County School Board is a man.

(link...)

Maryville has three men and two women.

Alcoa also has three men and two women.

How does a school board have all men? That's not to say that women will automatically take more progressive positions than men, but it says something that the School Board is filled entirely with men.

The Big Bang theory, while incomplete in my opinion, is based on scientific fact and observation and logic. It can therefore, be taught.

Creationism is based on faith. Faith cannot be taught. It might be able to be observed but it cannot be demonstrated. Faith is the belief in things despite the lack of evidence. How might you go about teaching that? As soon as you have evidence or proof, faith is no longer required.

YOU CAN'T TEACH FAITH! (Yes, it does need to be shouted) You can live your faith and let your children observe if they may but, that is about it. Anyone who purports to be teaching faith is a liar or an idiot or some combination of the two.

Any questions?

CAFKIA

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It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

I noticed that every single member of the Blounty County School Board is a man.

That reminds me of a comment made to my father back in the 70's. One of his customers bragged to him that he had voted for all three women running in the Blount County school board election: Shirley, Shirley, and Marion. Despite his good intentions this voter was unaware that two of these candidates were men.

So break out your grain of salt but, if I understand correctly, there may be any number of theories for a given event or circumstance. Until incontrovertible proof is found what is likely to happen is that more and more researchers and educated people will sign on to a given theory making it the most popular and most widely taught. But until said incontrovertible proof is found, I know of no reason that theories that vary from the main cannot coexist. (Unless of course, they are proven to not be possible.)

CAFKIA

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It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

Elrod, move to Knoxville...better yet NORTH Knoxville. Get your children in Webb (it will take a bit of work but it can be done by next year) and vote democrat.

Blount is not a great county and the city of Maryville has always been a republican hotbed! As for finding a church (if you are looking) I am visiting next Sunday a Baptist on Kingston Pike that one of the posters here told me about. Because I was raised in the Baptist church and my mother's brother was a preacher in one of the bigger Souther Baptist Churches in the area I hate to leave.

All the hate being tossed at Doug is mostly justified. He is not the leader of women crossing into the upper area of his Church and most of his social issue stances are very right wing.

He and I have found a little common ground on abortion, I believe life starts with growth and so does he. If you define growth as fertilization (open to discussion) then the issue starts to catch fire.

Earlier someone wanted to know which God god I pray 2 and the answer is the only god God. He does not care what name we give him he loves us all..ok not too sure if he is nuts about the VP...but most of us anyway and he hears us when we ask for his advice.

One thing he showed me after my divorce was that it takes much more energy to hate than to love, we all need to try it when things get over heated trust me it SO works!

Nope, I'm sticking with Maryville city, even if Blount County is Republican and right wing. I'll vote Democratic as always. Somebody's got to stir up trouble:) My wife and I go to UU church and we know there are a few in Knoxville with one that holds Maryville sessions a couple times a month. We'll check that out.

mrvlknxor,
I based my observation not just on the names but the pictures. They are not only all men on the BC School Board, but mostly elderly. Again, nothing "essentialist" about "older men" and fundamentalist Christianity but it did stand out.

cakfia,
The problem is not that evolution is or is not incontrovertibly true. The problem is that creationism or ID cannot be falsified with empirical evidence and so cannot be considered in the realm of science. One can easily say that science alone does not explain the origin of the universe; that there is some non-scientific explanation for origins. Christianity suggests that. But this faith-based explanation is, by definition, not scientific. That doesn't mean it's "wrong", just that it's not "scientific". Evolution can be proven wrong with scientific experimentation. That's why it should be taught in science class. Not that it has never yet been disproven!

it's my understanding that no Baptist church that's a member of the SBC may ordain women or allow them to serve as deacons.

I don't think that's true. First Baptist downtown and First Baptist Jefferson City have female deacons. They're both moderate churches, but I don't think either have actually left the convention.

First Baptist Church in Maryville also has woman deacons. I believe they are a member of the SBC as well as the more moderate Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

Here is part of a FAQ from the CBF's website:

Affirmation of women in ministry was one of the founding principles of the Fellowship. In the founding document of the Fellowship, the New Testament is acknowledged as providing two views of the role of women – a literal approach of submission to men or an inclusive approach. The document cites Galatians 3:27-28, “As many of you as are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus (NRSV).

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship FAQ

I think Plato addressed this problem in The Charmides. Which is why I believe the Western metaphysical canon should be taught in high school biology classes.

Sorry, CAFKIA, I misread your original post. My mistake.

Re: BBT, scientists claim to have micro evidence for it. IOW, it's still happening and microscopic evidence of that exists. Either way, evolutionary evidence is much stronger than BBT evidence. What's funny is that ID doesn't completely reject the logic of evolution - just that either a) something intelligent manages the whole process or b) it doesn't really apply to humans. The genuine Discovery Institute people go with A and say it DOES apply to humans, but that it's guided by a Designer. The rank-and-file fundamenatlists go with B and say that whatever science there is out there, it can't apply to humans because the Bible didn't say anything about evolving from apes.

There is an Intelligent Design convention at the Knoxville Convention Center on March 24. I've pointed out both the strengths of evolution and the weaknesses of Creationism/ID over the course of several Metro Pulse columns, and I had pretty much planned to drop the issue for a while, but my column will appear the weekend all them fools will be in town! How can I resist?

Their press release for the conference claims they will present the evidence for Darwin's theory, yet none of the listed panelists is qualified to do that. The one consistent trait every Creationist and IDers shares is an utter lack of understanding for what evolution is. They lie about evolution persistently, often using the same battered bullshit the anti-evolution crowd was hawking a century ago. They know they are lying; they must. They have no interest in truth or science. Their message is for fundamentalists and only fundamentalists. Anyone who understands science knows ID is not a theory. It is not falsifiable, and it has no explanatory power. Anyone who understands evolution knows these guys wallow in ignorance. None of the panelists is qualified to explain the evidence for evolution.

I'm thinking about challenging them to allow me to handle that task. Can I get a posse?

sorry again for starting such a protracted debate.

God is god..not a he, she or an it and not a name. If you are calling on God then it is never a sin.

Agreeing with everyone on every point never moves thoughts forward but calling a person's thoughts sh*t is not the best way to engage in spirited debate. If you would like to talk with me face to face I will buy the coffee you name the spot.

But I was making a point that the poster obviously does not want to concede."

My answer is god is God and is not encumbered by a given name. It is not a sin for anyone of any faith to call on God, no matter what name they use.

Baptists often come down on folks who are Mormons, Catholics, well you know the list goes on and on, but true believers are not bound by the rules of the church but by the rules of the bible.

It really is easy if you just back away from all the labels and look at the big picture.

I don't feel like I am fighting with anyone just expressing my point and that is the beauty of this blog...it is open to many voices even those who question others ideas.

Oh, crikey. Isn't the so-called "Discovery Institute" the same group who have been waging war in Kansas schools and in Dover, PA? The group who has a strategery called "Teach The Controversy" as a way to prevent Science from being taught?

One of the justifications that promoters of intelligent design use is that science can't explain some of the jumps in evolution and therefore God "must" be the source. In other word, if there is anything that can't be explained, God is the answer. So ---- since I don't think anyone can tell us where God came from, there must be a superGod that created him (just following the logic here). Hmmm, but that means that superGod must have a superduperGod that created him... ad infinitum.

On a barely more serious note, can I legally refuse to hire someone who was educated in a school system that teaches creationism or ID? Clearly they have an inferior education.

tjwhit

In other word, if there is anything that can't be explained, God is the answer.

There's always LGM.

____________________________

Recursive blogwhore.

Bullshit. The proof for a 15-billion-year-old, expanding universe can and does fill endless volumes"

If a person believes the bible then they have the map for creation. If they do not then there are many thoughts open to them, none are proven...but as some say neither is what is in the bible. Key is more than a few in this country believe the bible is a book of truths, those are the ones who find it hard to move over and look at billions and billions (who is that dead guy that always said that?) of past years to draw their conclusions from.

As for the crack at Doug, I sure don't defend the man he is way right for me...but more than a few thousand do love him and WILL defend him. Not sure if that is good or bad but it is a fact.

But LadyVols, that's not necessarily true either. You say that those who "believe the Bible" have a "map for creation." Is that a literal map or just a general guideline? Fundamentalists believe the Bible literally gives an account for creation, despite the obvious contradictions. More mature believers take the Bible as largely allegorical and situate it in the context of its authors and their modes of literary expression. These mature believers - who constitute most mainline Protestant and Catholic denominations - very much "believe the Bible." They just don't deny to themselves the fact that the Bible was actually written by...men...and that there were hundreds of volumes, only a subset of which are considered part of "the Bible" today. Fundamentalism is epistemologically retarded.

Fundamentalism is epistemologically retarded."

Now THAT is a beautiful word...epistemologically...long, starts with an e...ends with a y....it has it all!

Your thought would hit a tad harder if you left it out and just called those who believe (ok, those who follow that path) retarded. I hate to call anyone retarded because to me that says they are someone who can only learn to a certain level or they do not have the ability to grasp new ideas. I like ignorant much better, if you don't know all the facts then you are ignorant of the "rest" of the story. Could be both sides are just ignorant and hard looks in both directions might be what they need to find a point of intersection (in their thoughts) and a new path to both teach and explore how we got here?

I think it is both sad and scary to think we are just here and there is nothing bigger than us. Church is a wonderful place to experience what happens to people when they get that ego controlled and let their spirit relax.

School is a place to learn and to be confused at the same
dang time,in my life both were good fits for me. Others may not find it that way, but if they find themselves upset most of the time over little to big things, they might try several churches and see if one has the calm they are looking for. Could be out there but you have to go to know.

Again..LOVE that word...but not for a bumper sticker...how about a T Shirt!

So much fun to be had here. where to start?

That bit of play acting at the start of the Blount county School board meeting is not "prayer", it's "preaching", as anyone who's actually read Mathew will attest. Matthew didn't think much of it. doesn't stop 'em though.

Religion puts god in such a small box. This allows small minds to argue over the smaller things they can use to beat each other over the head with.

I don't believe in religion, but one question I keep asking myself in this regard is, "If there is no god, why does the Arithmetic work?"

ID'ers and Creationists seem to be simply too ignorant or willfully stupid to do the math. Mathematics never lies. I believe in Arithmetic. Arithmetic describes the state of the Universe and much of the Big Bang theory. Creationism and Intelligent Design are best described by "bullshit".

Actually, I've never met a single person who "believes" the bible, or at least the compilation currently in use in most protestant churches. They left the book of "Steve" out of the politically correct version.

No, Really! Of course it ended badly as everything always does in the bible.

I'm sticking with arithmetic. They liked my questions in math class. In church...not so much.

ha!

Steve

Arithmetic describes the state of the Universe and much of the Big Bang theory. Creationism and Intelligent Design are best described by "bullshit"."

Only question here is ... what if your Arithmetic is not the REAL Arithmetic? What if a day in the bible is a half a billion years in your arithmetic? Just a thought.

Glad you believe in something and that you don't need church to help you. I really think most folks are like that but lord help if we are not a pack driven group of kids and at times Church takes care of those needs.

As for meetings opening with a prayer, heck never forget that which is HEARING the prayer is always smarter than those giving it and has NO problem sifting out the truth from the Bull Doo Doo.

I bet if they were to offer one up here in Knox County before our crooks went to work the thunder would roll all the way to Turkey Creek and back!

ps
good post steve, no really it was..
One Called Troll

That might be the most insane post on several levels that I've ever read.

Now you guys are going to have your own arithmetic? I'd like to see the equation that makes that make any sense whatsoever.

Next you'll say "it's magic"...

And...

Never forget that public Meetings cannot be opened with a spoken prayer. If you speak it aloud in public, it isn't prayer...that's preaching according to my bible. And since it is nearly always a protestant christian sermon, it is Constitutionally prohibited...But then what's a little law breaking amongst FundXtians, eh?

I guess Jesus wants you to be a criminal?

Ha!

That might be the most insane post on several levels that I've ever read."

I am sorry. I was just trying to ask you to look at the idea of things not always being what we think they are today? If I believe God, god is bigger than everything and can easily see how a day to God, god could translate into a section of time that would fit into your idea.

As for calling me names, not a problem heard them before and I am fine with them. I just have this thought that God, god can be bigger than our understanding and easier to talk with than anyone we will ever meet while we are on his earth. Good friend who never got out of the 60s and is now in NC running a fun business once told me if everyone would just be quiet and listen all sorts of answers would come to them. I just never got into the quiet thing I guess?

I do enjoy your posts!

Troll=Stupid

Read Matthew chapter 6, verses 5 and 6 and tell me again what"Christians" think of the opening prayer at public functions. Read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes and then point me to one (1) ONE!! person who actually appears to be republican and following the teachings of Christ.

If you are not doing as Christ is alleged to have instructed, you simply are not a Christian no matter how much you may admire him or say you do. Since I have been unable to find the words of Christ that outline women's 2nd class status, I must therefore conclude that your minister is no Christian. You should probably look for another spiritual leader.

If the purpose of the church is not to disseminate the teachings of the Christ, then what do they exist for? I will allow that even if the bible is total bunk, the teachings of the Christ make sense for harmonius societal living. If the church isn't teaching that, they have no societally useful function.

CAFKIA

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It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

gave Christianity the laws that he thought were the most important ones to live by.

Mark 12:28-34 The most important of all of the commandments is this: You shall love the Lord your God will all of your heart, and with all of your soul, and with your entire mind, and strength.

Let the second commandment then be, love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This is my commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you! There is no greater law...

I have to say, I don't see much of that kind of law-abiding coming from fundamentalist churches, Republicans, and others who claim to be Christians.
_________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

talidapali,

Amen! And the same for Matthew 22:34-40. 40- "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If Christians practiced those verses a little more, there would probably be less people who hate the religion. After all, what is so bad about the Golden Rule?

KTB

After all, what is so bad about the Golden Rule?

Nothing...it is an excellent tenet of Buddhism.