Tue
Feb 27 2007
09:20 am
By: Johnny Ringo  shortURL

Kinda suprised no one has commented on this one yet:

Senator calls for answer on creation of universe
By TOM HUMPHREY, tomhumphrey3@aol.com
February 27, 2007

NASHVILLE - Sen. Raymond Finney proposes to use the legislative process to get an answer to the question of whether the universe was created by a "Supreme Being."
Under Senate Resolution 17, introduced by the Maryville Republican, the answer would come from state Education Commissioner Lana Seivers "in report form" no later than Jan. 15, 2008.

Finney, a retired physician, said Monday that his objective is to formally prod the Department of Education into a dialogue about the teaching of evolution in school science classes without also teaching the alternative of "creationism," or "intelligent design."

The move would thus renew a debate that has raged off and on in the Tennessee Legislature since at least 1925, when the 64th General Assembly enacted a law forbidding the teaching of evolution - setting the stage for the famous John Scopes "monkey trial" in Dayton, Tenn., later that year.

Scientists, ethicists, theologians and philosophers have pondered this question for centuries. Who knew it would be the Tennessee State Education Commissioner who would finally give us the definitive answer?

Hack away...

216
like
LadyVols's picture

Sen. Raymond

Sen. Raymond Finney"

Although the first twitch is that of hands up and jaws down, if you had heard Sen. Finnely (he has spoken at our church) you might slow down. He is a very faith based person and the majority of those who heard him agreed with him on a number of subjects. He has a very strong argument against abortion that is founded in scripture, but I have never heard him talk about creation?

The plan he has in Nashville is to try for an answer that is not there and then demand that two other thoughts be taught side by side with evolution. This one won't go away very fast because of the heat the entire subject generates. I just wish those men down their would spend more time on fixing Ten Care and less on something that was put to rest in 1925.

Bbeanster's picture

So the majority of Doug

So the majority of Doug Sager's followers agreed with Finney?

There's a surprise.

Elrod's picture

Until this Senator comes up

Until this Senator comes up with scientific evidence of the universe's creation through a Creator, he should keep this idiocy out of the science curriculum. The reason we don't teach it in science is because it's, by definition, not falsifiable, whereas evolution and big bang theory are. Scripture is not falsifiable either - except in literary and theological debate.

LadyVols's picture

So the majority of Doug

So the majority of Doug Sager's followers agreed with Finney?"

Never said I was in the majority! LOL
As for your dislike of Doug, what can I say...he is a very powerful man with very black and white thoughts. I don't agree on all he says by a long shot but at least he has no fear in saying them and from the crowd the church generates every Sunday I have to think someone is agreeing with the man?

As for the abortion issue if a child is alive it should be saved, very simple to me but others just don't see it that way.

Inherit The Wind is one of my favorite movies, everyone should dust it off again and check it out.

Elrod's picture

Abortion is a complex moral

Abortion is a complex moral issue and can be decided with moral suasion. Scientific falsifiability is only a small part of the abortion debate (i.e. what a fetus can and cannot do at certain stages of development). But the origins of the universe debate must be either conducted along the lines of falsifiability or not. If not, then it is a purely theological/philosophical debate and should be kept out of the science class. By definition, science must be falsifiable. Finney's entire premise is completely backward. Nobody can falsify (or verify) the existence of a Creator. Failure to do so does not mean creationism is a valid scientific alternative to evolution.

R. Neal's picture

I'm ashamed that Sen.

I'm ashamed that Sen. Raymond Finney of the 8th District is from Blount Co.

LadyVols's picture

I'm ashamed that Sen.

I'm ashamed that Sen. Raymond Finney of the 8th District is from Blount Co."

As you know there are many problems Nashville needs to be dealing with without digging up old issues. As for your shame, on one hand you sure have the right to be on the other, you really should hear this man talk. Again, I sure don't agree with most of what he says, but he can hold a crowd as well as most who rule over at the capitol.

Evolution, big bang, whatever you want to call it.. is something everyone can talk about and never come to a meeting of the minds. If you are a believer or a pagan, either way it will be hard to prove your side of the question.

The Big deal for law makers should be to improve life today and not worry how it all started. Sen. Finney needs to work on the smoking ban and Ten Care with the same emotion he is using to push this old agenda, then we might all agree with the man.

Bbeanster's picture

Of course Finney can hold a

Of course Finney can hold a crowd of Southern Baptist fundamentalists in the palm of his hand. But here's a newsflash: he is a zealot who doesn't speak to, or for, the rest of us.

rikki's picture

nah

If you are a believer or a pagan, either way it will be hard to prove your side of the question.

Bullshit. The proof for a 15-billion-year-old, expanding universe can and does fill endless volumes. The proof that variation and differential reproductive success is the foundation for biodiversity can and does fill endless volumes. Neither theory conflicts with a mature understanding of God or the Bible.

Proof of a meddlesome, man-in-the-clouds god wouldn't fill a Dixie cup on which his bearded, lightning-bolt-tossing image is imprinted. Evolution and the Big Bang, like lightning, can be understood, given enough knowledge of the natural world and scientific principles. There is no requirement that anything be believed, only understood. That lightning might be aimed at targets is a matter of belief. You can understand lightning as an electrical phenomenon and you can believe it's aimed. That's the difference between understanding and believing.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Keep on visiting

Lady Vols: "If you are a believer or a pagan, either way it will be hard to prove your side of the question."

Rikki, WRT 15 billion year-old earth & variation of species: "Neither theory conflicts with a mature understanding of God or the Bible."

I chose to pass on your framing of this issue yesterday, LV, but I agree with Rikki. It isn't necessary to frame this discussion as one between believers and pagans, and I sure hope you haven't accepted instruction from Sager or anyone else that you must reject your faith in order to embrace known science.

If you haven't yet met fellow believers that understand and accept the scientific theory of evolution, I have to think that you just haven't visited the right churches yet. I sure hope you continue to seek them out.

R. Neal's picture

I've had plenty enough

I've had plenty enough interaction with Finney. This is just the icing on the cake. He's an old fool and a hypocrite who is, unfortunately, representing the majority view of his backwoods constituency. And you should learn to spell TennCare.

Hildegard's picture

Supreme Death Certificates?

So if the commission reports that evolution trumps intelligent design and creationism, which legislator is most likely to introduce legislation calling for the issuance of a death certificate for God?

Rachel's picture

God's death certificate

which legislator is most likely to introduce legislation calling for the issuance of a death certificate for God?

That would be Stacey X. He's really in to death certificates.

Elrod's picture

Is his constituency really

Is his constituency really that backwoods? He represents Blount and Sevier County, right? Some of it is backwoods but a lot of it is pretty well-educated. Why is a man from this region saying this stuff?

LadyVols's picture

And you should learn to

And you should learn to spell TennCare."

Ten Care is a major issue if you know someone who had it and then lost it. It was put together too fast and cracked under all the fraud that it generated. I had no idea you knew the man, I only heard him speak at church 3 or 4 times and never actually met him. You know him much better than I do and if what you are saying is correct then this entire issue sounds like just another one of his off the wall ideas?

As for the shot at the church, Ms Bean that is way below you. Remember even those of us who almost never agree with Doug still attend for a bigger reason. You should try visiting a church that is bound by believers it can be a very calming and wonderful experience. Also thank you for your stories on the fire department!

As for my spelling, my mind is not as good as it used to be and it shows when I type. Tenn Care...thanks I will try to remember to correct it next time.

Bbeanster's picture

I disagree with Doug Sager's

I disagree with Doug Sager's stand on social issues -- particularly his 19th Century view of women, and I cannot agree with a church that holds the notion that women are second-class citizens. How many associate/assistant ministers are there at that church? How many of these are women? Are women allowed to be deacons?

And that doesn't even touch his stance on education, healthcare and birth control issues.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Bean: "I disagree with Doug

Bean: "I disagree with Doug Sager's stand on social issues -- particularly his 19th Century view of women..."

We needn't single out Sager in this regard, Betty--it's my understanding that no Baptist church that's a member of the SBC may ordain women or allow them to serve as deacons.

FYI, during the time my husband served as deacon to a SBC- member church, that board served with only 11 of 12 positions filled. Recruiters explained that no man previously divorced could serve, and they were unable to find twelve such candidates in their congregation (of 500).

Bbeanster's picture

Sager is a past president of

Sager is a past president of the Tennessee Southern Baptists and a spokeperson for the anti-women side, so I think it's fair to single him out.

Rachel's picture

it's my understanding that

it's my understanding that no Baptist church that's a member of the SBC may ordain women or allow them to serve as deacons.

I don't think that's true. First Baptist downtown and First Baptist Jefferson City have female deacons. They're both moderate churches, but I don't think either have actually left the convention.

As for the original post - this is from The Onion, right?

R. Neal's picture

FBC downtown dropped out of

FBC downtown dropped out of the SBC a while back.

(Don't know about SBC rules and women, but I'm pretty sure on the above.)

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Anecdotal evidence...

You may be right, Rachel. I have no authoritative information from the SBC, but this is how my husband's fellow deacons explained their practice to him (and my perception of them was that they were pretty backwater).

And Betty, I didn't *mind* your singling out Sager, I was just offering you a bigger target ;-)

R. Neal's picture

I don't know him. I don't

I don't know him. I don't need to be pals with my government representatives. I have had several interactions with him as a constituent. That was enough.

R. Neal's picture

Is his constituency really

Is his constituency really that backwoods?

(link...)

Elrod's picture

Ugggh. That's horrifying.

Ugggh. That's horrifying. I'm set to move to Maryville this summer and it doesn't seem like the schools would support such ignorance. Maybe it's just the Blount County schools and not the city schools. I hope so, at least. Vandy Kemp is now at Maryville College.

R. Neal's picture

This is Blount Co. schools.

This is Blount Co. schools. There are three school systems in Blount Co., Maryville, Alcoa, and Blount Co. The Maryville school system is highly regarded. Lots of parents apprently move there for that reason. Alcoa schools are well regarded, too.

Maryville City Schools report card

Alcoa City Schools report card

Blount Co. Schools report card

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Already lowest

Thanks, Randy. I note that Blount County's percentage of student scores qualifying as "advanced" are the lowest of the three school systems *before* we are actually seeing the consequences of the school board's changed curriculum.

R. Neal's picture

Yes, and look at the

Yes, and look at the (unfortunate) enrollment numbers:

Maryville: 4711
Alcoa: 1466
Blount: 11,279

Elrod's picture

Well, Blount County is

Well, Blount County is pretty big. It includes Friendsville, Rockford, Townsend and a ton of unincorprated territory. My guess is that Blounty County attracts conservatives who don't want to fork over extra money in property taxes to support Maryville City Schools. Maryville City may not be a liberal hotbed but it does ask of its citizens that they pay more money to support a great school system.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

BEP reform could sap Alcoa/Maryville systems...

Elrod: "My guess is that Blounty County attracts conservatives who don't want to fork over extra money in property taxes to support Maryville City Schools."

Probably so, Elrod. If my understanding of this BEP reform debate is correct, any reform would leave Maryville and Alcoa unable to shield from the state that stash of city funding they use to support their school systems now. I would expect,then, that decreased availablity of local funds would ultimately cost them the test-score "edge" they enjoy now.

(What is the topic of this thread, anyway...)

SnM's picture

May you be touched by his noodly appendage

Time to organize a chapter of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster in Tennessee: (link...)

talidapali's picture

I'm already a member...

may the Noodles be with you.

_________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

R. Neal's picture

I find it interesting that

I find it interesting that his 2007 constituent legislative survey does not mention this topic. If you look at what he does ask about, however, there definitely appears to be an agenda.

(link...)

He also did not ask about this on his 2006 survey. The results, however, reveal a fairly conservative point of view among respondents. They also give him a very high score as compared to the General Assembly overall.

(link...)

LadyVols's picture

The start of the monthly

The start of the monthly school board meeting in Blount County, Tennessee begins with a prayer. "Lord we come before you tonight and giving you thanks for all your blessings."

Eugenie Scott is afraid what's happened in Blount County will happen elsewhere around the country, too.

The prayer continues, "Lord, we know that you have set these people in these positions."

Did I miss something? What is wrong with prayer? We should thank god that the meetings start with a request for guidance, is that a problem now???

R. Neal's picture

DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE?

DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE? IT'S AN ARTICLE ABOUT BLOUNT COUNTY BANNING BIOLOGY I.E. SCIENCE TEXTBOOKS THAT MENTION EVOLUTION OR DO NOT INCLUDE CREATIONISM INSTRUCTION. TWICE. AND IT PROVIDES A PRETTY GOOD OVERVIEW OF THE POLITICAL CLIMATE AMONG FINNEY'S CONSTITUENCY WHICH THE PREVIOUS POSTER ASKED ABOUT.

Is that clearer?

As for prayer for meetings and asking 'god' (with a litte 'g' as you wrote it) for guidance, to which 'god' should we pray at public meetings?

LadyVols's picture

As for prayer for meetings

As for prayer for meetings and asking 'god' (with a litte 'g' as you wrote it) for guidance, to which 'god' should we pray at public meetings?"

Please don't shout, we are just talking OK?

As for which god or God that answer is so easy. If you have read the bible then you know the answer.

Again, spelling is an issue God or god and I know it but getting upset over a linked blog story is not a good way to start your day or mine. I am sorry i upset you.

talidapali's picture

Ahhh...but ladyvol...

Your god is not my god. Why should I have to pray to your god for guidance in a public meeting...perhaps prayers to all gods and goddesses should be offered to cover our collective butts.

But...if we did that...there would be no time left to cover the meeting agendas. How about people pray to their gods BEFORE they come to the meetings and ask for guidance then, instead of during the meeting? Hopefully you carry your god with you in your heart and you don't really need to constantly invoke him or her before every decision. Hopefully your moral foundations are not so flexible that you would be led astray by mere words.

_________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

R. Neal's picture

Question for you, LV. Is it

Question for you, LV. Is it a sin for you to pray to Allah?

R. Neal's picture

SKB flashback, Apr. 5,

SKB flashback, Apr. 5, 2003:

This just in from the buckle of the Bible belt...

The Blount County School Board apparently knows more about science than scientists and textbook authors. They have decided to ban science textbooks that discuss evolution. They are instructing science teachers to develop a curriculum that teaches creationism. Presumably, the new standard Blount County science textbook will be the King James Bible. Are we not men? We are Devo.

SKB: Jan. 9, 2005:

Blount County Schools vote to teach Intelligent Design as an alternative to evolution. Same product ("creationism"), different package.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Biology Gateway exam?

SKB: Jan. 9, 2005: "Blount County Schools vote to teach Intelligent Design as an alternative to evolution. Same product ("creationism"), different package."

It will be interesting to track the scores of Blount County's (compromised) high schoolers on their state-mandated biology Gateway exam over the next few years.

Wonder what size crop of science scholarship winners they might yield?

Elrod's picture

I noticed that every single

I noticed that every single member of the Blounty County School Board is a man.

(link...)

Maryville has three men and two women.

Alcoa also has three men and two women.

How does a school board have all men? That's not to say that women will automatically take more progressive positions than men, but it says something that the School Board is filled entirely with men.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Knox Co nearly, Elrod

Until our most recent election, Knox County's nine-member school board had only Diane Dozier. We picked up Carson, Kincannon, and Buttry in '04, of course...

Elrod's picture

Yeah, just for comparison's

Yeah, just for comparison's sake I checked out the school board for my town up here in Michigan and it's also almost entirely men. And this is a solidly Democratic town (in a Republican area of the state). Roane County is all men. Sevier County has only one woman. Why is that? It isn't like all of these board members are serving 20-year terms.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Dunno, but...

after she was elected, but before she was sworn in, I heard two different prominent male citizens comment, in two different conversations, that Indya Kincannon would now need to cease breastfeeding her youngest child!

I found the exchange to be hugely illuminating as to attitudes around here generally.

(Apologies, Indya, if this is news to you. Rest assured that I pounced on them both!)

cafkia's picture

Unsaid

The Big Bang theory, while incomplete in my opinion, is based on scientific fact and observation and logic. It can therefore, be taught.

Creationism is based on faith. Faith cannot be taught. It might be able to be observed but it cannot be demonstrated. Faith is the belief in things despite the lack of evidence. How might you go about teaching that? As soon as you have evidence or proof, faith is no longer required.

YOU CAN'T TEACH FAITH! (Yes, it does need to be shouted) You can live your faith and let your children observe if they may but, that is about it. Anyone who purports to be teaching faith is a liar or an idiot or some combination of the two.

Any questions?

CAFKIA

----------------------------------------------------------- 

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Can science even support two concurrent theories?

Cafkia: "YOU CAN'T TEACH FAITH!"

You make perfect sense to me, Cafkia. What's more, isn't it the case, WRT scientific methodology, that it is necessary to *disprove* an existing theory before any new one may be substituted? Does the methodology even allow for two theories to stand concurrently?

mrvlknxor's picture

Blount County School Board Election in the 70's

I noticed that every single member of the Blounty County School Board is a man.

That reminds me of a comment made to my father back in the 70's. One of his customers bragged to him that he had voted for all three women running in the Blount County school board election: Shirley, Shirley, and Marion. Despite his good intentions this voter was unaware that two of these candidates were men.

metulj's picture

I will accept intelligent

I will accept intelligent design as a viable alternative when its proponents develop a method that can falsify all other possible explanations other than the work of the intelligent designer.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

cafkia's picture

I'm not a scientist

So break out your grain of salt but, if I understand correctly, there may be any number of theories for a given event or circumstance. Until incontrovertible proof is found what is likely to happen is that more and more researchers and educated people will sign on to a given theory making it the most popular and most widely taught. But until said incontrovertible proof is found, I know of no reason that theories that vary from the main cannot coexist. (Unless of course, they are proven to not be possible.)

CAFKIA

----------------------------------------------------------- 

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

LadyVols's picture

Elrod, move to

Elrod, move to Knoxville...better yet NORTH Knoxville. Get your children in Webb (it will take a bit of work but it can be done by next year) and vote democrat.

Blount is not a great county and the city of Maryville has always been a republican hotbed! As for finding a church (if you are looking) I am visiting next Sunday a Baptist on Kingston Pike that one of the posters here told me about. Because I was raised in the Baptist church and my mother's brother was a preacher in one of the bigger Souther Baptist Churches in the area I hate to leave.

All the hate being tossed at Doug is mostly justified. He is not the leader of women crossing into the upper area of his Church and most of his social issue stances are very right wing.

He and I have found a little common ground on abortion, I believe life starts with growth and so does he. If you define growth as fertilization (open to discussion) then the issue starts to catch fire.

Earlier someone wanted to know which God god I pray 2 and the answer is the only god God. He does not care what name we give him he loves us all..ok not too sure if he is nuts about the VP...but most of us anyway and he hears us when we ask for his advice.

One thing he showed me after my divorce was that it takes much more energy to hate than to love, we all need to try it when things get over heated trust me it SO works!

R. Neal's picture

Earlier someone wanted to

Earlier someone wanted to know which God god I pray 2 and the answer is the only god God. He does not care what name we give him he loves us all..ok not too sure if he is nuts about the VP...but most of us anyway and he hears us when we ask for his advice.

How do you know God is a "he" and not a "she"?

You never answered my previous question regarding whether it is a sin for you to pray to Allah.

It doesn't matter though, because you are a troll, plain and simple. You really should go somewhere else to stir up shit just to antagonize people. It's not nice. Ask your pastor.

Elrod's picture

Nope, I'm sticking with

Nope, I'm sticking with Maryville city, even if Blount County is Republican and right wing. I'll vote Democratic as always. Somebody's got to stir up trouble:) My wife and I go to UU church and we know there are a few in Knoxville with one that holds Maryville sessions a couple times a month. We'll check that out.

mrvlknxor,
I based my observation not just on the names but the pictures. They are not only all men on the BC School Board, but mostly elderly. Again, nothing "essentialist" about "older men" and fundamentalist Christianity but it did stand out.

cakfia,
The problem is not that evolution is or is not incontrovertibly true. The problem is that creationism or ID cannot be falsified with empirical evidence and so cannot be considered in the realm of science. One can easily say that science alone does not explain the origin of the universe; that there is some non-scientific explanation for origins. Christianity suggests that. But this faith-based explanation is, by definition, not scientific. That doesn't mean it's "wrong", just that it's not "scientific". Evolution can be proven wrong with scientific experimentation. That's why it should be taught in science class. Not that it has never yet been disproven!

cafkia's picture

I never said that which you imply I did

The problem is not that evolution is or is not incontrovertibly true. The problem is that creationism or ID cannot be falsified with empirical evidence and so cannot be considered in the realm of science. One can easily say that science alone does not explain the origin of the universe; that there is some non-scientific explanation for origins. Christianity suggests that. But this faith-based explanation is, by definition, not scientific. That doesn't mean it's "wrong", just that it's not "scientific". Evolution can be proven wrong with scientific experimentation. That's why it should be taught in science class. Not that it has never yet been disproven!

I simply said that you could not teach faith. I stand by that. It is, of course, completely possible to teach and learn things which are not true. I stated that I thought the BBT to be incomplete. Turns out that the same is true of Creationism. Both start with stuff already in existence. No explanation can be given for the reactions which caused the BB to occur as they would have had to happen prior to physical laws as we know them. No explanation is given for where Gawd (however you choose to perceive Her) comes from or what She used to create stuff. And of course, no explanation is given for how or why the FSM could predate spagetti. What is true is that WRT our interactions with all the inhabitants of this world, flora and fauna and inert, the currently expressed theory of evolution works best to provide the foundation for the expansion of human knowledge and, AND the understanding and expansion of that theory stand the best chance IMNSHO, of allowing the human race to continue to exist on this planet.

I really think that is what She wants.

CAFKIA

----------------------------------------------------------- 

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

mrvlknxor's picture

Maryville First Baptist has women deacons

it's my understanding that no Baptist church that's a member of the SBC may ordain women or allow them to serve as deacons.

I don't think that's true. First Baptist downtown and First Baptist Jefferson City have female deacons. They're both moderate churches, but I don't think either have actually left the convention.

First Baptist Church in Maryville also has woman deacons. I believe they are a member of the SBC as well as the more moderate Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

Here is part of a FAQ from the CBF's website:

Affirmation of women in ministry was one of the founding principles of the Fellowship. In the founding document of the Fellowship, the New Testament is acknowledged as providing two views of the role of women – a literal approach of submission to men or an inclusive approach. The document cites Galatians 3:27-28, “As many of you as are baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus (NRSV).

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship FAQ

Sven's picture

I think Plato addressed this

I think Plato addressed this problem in The Charmides. Which is why I believe the Western metaphysical canon should be taught in high school biology classes.

Elrod's picture

Sorry, CAFKIA, I misread

Sorry, CAFKIA, I misread your original post. My mistake.

Re: BBT, scientists claim to have micro evidence for it. IOW, it's still happening and microscopic evidence of that exists. Either way, evolutionary evidence is much stronger than BBT evidence. What's funny is that ID doesn't completely reject the logic of evolution - just that either a) something intelligent manages the whole process or b) it doesn't really apply to humans. The genuine Discovery Institute people go with A and say it DOES apply to humans, but that it's guided by a Designer. The rank-and-file fundamenatlists go with B and say that whatever science there is out there, it can't apply to humans because the Bible didn't say anything about evolving from apes.

Rachel's picture

Evolving from apes

I think we evolved from dinasours. And in the last 4000 years.

talidapali's picture

I did not evolve from no...

I think we evolved from dinasours. And in the last 4000 years.

I evolved from a dinasweet. J/K!

SmileyCentral.com

_________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

rikki's picture

convention

There is an Intelligent Design convention at the Knoxville Convention Center on March 24. I've pointed out both the strengths of evolution and the weaknesses of Creationism/ID over the course of several Metro Pulse columns, and I had pretty much planned to drop the issue for a while, but my column will appear the weekend all them fools will be in town! How can I resist?

Their press release for the conference claims they will present the evidence for Darwin's theory, yet none of the listed panelists is qualified to do that. The one consistent trait every Creationist and IDers shares is an utter lack of understanding for what evolution is. They lie about evolution persistently, often using the same battered bullshit the anti-evolution crowd was hawking a century ago. They know they are lying; they must. They have no interest in truth or science. Their message is for fundamentalists and only fundamentalists. Anyone who understands science knows ID is not a theory. It is not falsifiable, and it has no explanatory power. Anyone who understands evolution knows these guys wallow in ignorance. None of the panelists is qualified to explain the evidence for evolution.

I'm thinking about challenging them to allow me to handle that task. Can I get a posse?

metulj's picture

Feel free to use my

Feel free to use my incompleteness refutation as well as the logic trap from above.

True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler

LadyVols's picture

sorry again for starting

sorry again for starting such a protracted debate.

God is god..not a he, she or an it and not a name. If you are calling on God then it is never a sin.

Agreeing with everyone on every point never moves thoughts forward but calling a person's thoughts sh*t is not the best way to engage in spirited debate. If you would like to talk with me face to face I will buy the coffee you name the spot.

R. Neal's picture

So Allah is God?

So Allah is God?

Johnny Ringo's picture

I think that Muslims

I think that Muslims recognize Allah as the God of Abraham, so wouldn't that be a yes? I'm not a scholar in the area by any means, but don't Judaism, Christianity and Islam all spring from basically the same traditions?

A better question might be whether Gaia (or name your favorite non-Judeo/Christian/Islamic deity here) is God.

Edit: Answer here:

Q: When was Islam started?
A: Contrary to popular belief, Islam was not started by Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the 7th century. Muslims, the followers of Islam, believe that Islam was first followed by Adam, then by all of the prophets thereafter. Muslims believe that the same basic message of belief in one God was communicated through many prophets including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) over time.

R. Neal's picture

Actually, you are correct,

Actually, you are correct, but I doubt many Southern Baptist Conservative Christians would say it is not a sin to pray to Allah and in fact would just as soon outlaw it if they had their way. But I was making a point that the poster obviously does not want to concede. Because he/she is a troll, plain and simple, and is not here to contribute anything meaningful to any conversation.

LadyVols's picture

But I was making a point

But I was making a point that the poster obviously does not want to concede."

My answer is god is God and is not encumbered by a given name. It is not a sin for anyone of any faith to call on God, no matter what name they use.

Baptists often come down on folks who are Mormons, Catholics, well you know the list goes on and on, but true believers are not bound by the rules of the church but by the rules of the bible.

It really is easy if you just back away from all the labels and look at the big picture.

I don't feel like I am fighting with anyone just expressing my point and that is the beauty of this blog...it is open to many voices even those who question others ideas.

R. Neal's picture

Troll.

Troll.

Joe P.'s picture

Intelligent Design Meeting?

Oh, crikey. Isn't the so-called "Discovery Institute" the same group who have been waging war in Kansas schools and in Dover, PA? The group who has a strategery called "Teach The Controversy" as a way to prevent Science from being taught?

tjwhit's picture

ID and "God of the Gap"

One of the justifications that promoters of intelligent design use is that science can't explain some of the jumps in evolution and therefore God "must" be the source. In other word, if there is anything that can't be explained, God is the answer. So ---- since I don't think anyone can tell us where God came from, there must be a superGod that created him (just following the logic here). Hmmm, but that means that superGod must have a superduperGod that created him... ad infinitum.

On a barely more serious note, can I legally refuse to hire someone who was educated in a school system that teaches creationism or ID? Clearly they have an inferior education.

tjwhit

Andy Axel's picture

Another answer

In other word, if there is anything that can't be explained, God is the answer.

There's always LGM.

____________________________

Recursive blogwhore.

tjwhit's picture

Flying Spaghetti Monster

So true Andy, I also left out the FSM.

tjwhit

LadyVols's picture

Bullshit. The proof for a

Bullshit. The proof for a 15-billion-year-old, expanding universe can and does fill endless volumes"

If a person believes the bible then they have the map for creation. If they do not then there are many thoughts open to them, none are proven...but as some say neither is what is in the bible. Key is more than a few in this country believe the bible is a book of truths, those are the ones who find it hard to move over and look at billions and billions (who is that dead guy that always said that?) of past years to draw their conclusions from.

As for the crack at Doug, I sure don't defend the man he is way right for me...but more than a few thousand do love him and WILL defend him. Not sure if that is good or bad but it is a fact.

rikki's picture

Troll

Troll

Elrod's picture

But LadyVols, that's not

But LadyVols, that's not necessarily true either. You say that those who "believe the Bible" have a "map for creation." Is that a literal map or just a general guideline? Fundamentalists believe the Bible literally gives an account for creation, despite the obvious contradictions. More mature believers take the Bible as largely allegorical and situate it in the context of its authors and their modes of literary expression. These mature believers - who constitute most mainline Protestant and Catholic denominations - very much "believe the Bible." They just don't deny to themselves the fact that the Bible was actually written by...men...and that there were hundreds of volumes, only a subset of which are considered part of "the Bible" today. Fundamentalism is epistemologically retarded.

Nelle's picture

Love it

Fundamentalism is epistemologically retarded.

Can I put that on a bumper sticker?

Gotta get a longer bumper first ...

LadyVols's picture

Fundamentalism is

Fundamentalism is epistemologically retarded."

Now THAT is a beautiful word...epistemologically...long, starts with an e...ends with a y....it has it all!

Your thought would hit a tad harder if you left it out and just called those who believe (ok, those who follow that path) retarded. I hate to call anyone retarded because to me that says they are someone who can only learn to a certain level or they do not have the ability to grasp new ideas. I like ignorant much better, if you don't know all the facts then you are ignorant of the "rest" of the story. Could be both sides are just ignorant and hard looks in both directions might be what they need to find a point of intersection (in their thoughts) and a new path to both teach and explore how we got here?

I think it is both sad and scary to think we are just here and there is nothing bigger than us. Church is a wonderful place to experience what happens to people when they get that ego controlled and let their spirit relax.

School is a place to learn and to be confused at the same
dang time,in my life both were good fits for me. Others may not find it that way, but if they find themselves upset most of the time over little to big things, they might try several churches and see if one has the calm they are looking for. Could be out there but you have to go to know.

Again..LOVE that word...but not for a bumper sticker...how about a T Shirt!

talidapali's picture

And I think it is sad...

I think it is both sad and scary to think we are just here and there is nothing bigger than us.

...to think that the explanation given to folks in churches is the ONLY explanation worth considering. I think this is a HUGE universe and I also would like to believe that it is FULL of life, maybe not life that we can recognize right off the bat as being sentient in the way that we are, but still, life that we can eventually communicate with one day.

Who knows...the first alien race we may encounter may be the ones living in our own oceans right now (cetaceans), that is, if we don't hunt and pollute them out of existence first.

_________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

WhitesCreek's picture

Lv = Troll=agenda

So much fun to be had here. where to start?

That bit of play acting at the start of the Blount county School board meeting is not "prayer", it's "preaching", as anyone who's actually read Mathew will attest. Matthew didn't think much of it. doesn't stop 'em though.

Religion puts god in such a small box. This allows small minds to argue over the smaller things they can use to beat each other over the head with.

I don't believe in religion, but one question I keep asking myself in this regard is, "If there is no god, why does the Arithmetic work?"

ID'ers and Creationists seem to be simply too ignorant or willfully stupid to do the math. Mathematics never lies. I believe in Arithmetic. Arithmetic describes the state of the Universe and much of the Big Bang theory. Creationism and Intelligent Design are best described by "bullshit".

Actually, I've never met a single person who "believes" the bible, or at least the compilation currently in use in most protestant churches. They left the book of "Steve" out of the politically correct version.

No, Really! Of course it ended badly as everything always does in the bible.

I'm sticking with arithmetic. They liked my questions in math class. In church...not so much.

ha!

Steve

LadyVols's picture

Arithmetic describes the

Arithmetic describes the state of the Universe and much of the Big Bang theory. Creationism and Intelligent Design are best described by "bullshit"."

Only question here is ... what if your Arithmetic is not the REAL Arithmetic? What if a day in the bible is a half a billion years in your arithmetic? Just a thought.

Glad you believe in something and that you don't need church to help you. I really think most folks are like that but lord help if we are not a pack driven group of kids and at times Church takes care of those needs.

As for meetings opening with a prayer, heck never forget that which is HEARING the prayer is always smarter than those giving it and has NO problem sifting out the truth from the Bull Doo Doo.

I bet if they were to offer one up here in Knox County before our crooks went to work the thunder would roll all the way to Turkey Creek and back!

ps
good post steve, no really it was..
One Called Troll

Rachel's picture

Troll.

Troll.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Your intent is clear

LV: "I think it is both sad and scary to think we are just here and there is nothing bigger than us."

Your posts make less and less sense. No one either said or suggested that anywhere in this conversation. *Since* no one said or suggested that, why are you implying that anyone did--unless your intent is simply to create discord?

LV: "What if a day in the bible is a half a billion years in your arithmetic?"

What is this double-speak? *If* you can consider this possibility, why are you engaging people in this extended conversaton that Biblical text disputes the underpinnings of evolutionary science--unless your intent is simply to create discord?

Your intent *is* simply to create discord. What's worse, your methodology is both irreverent and highly disrespectful of people who genuinely hold the faith you play at professing. When you are next alone, whoever you are, you may want to pray on that.

Randy, may we vote her/him/it off the island?

WhitesCreek's picture

LV = nuts too?

That might be the most insane post on several levels that I've ever read.

Now you guys are going to have your own arithmetic? I'd like to see the equation that makes that make any sense whatsoever.

Next you'll say "it's magic"...

And...

Never forget that public Meetings cannot be opened with a spoken prayer. If you speak it aloud in public, it isn't prayer...that's preaching according to my bible. And since it is nearly always a protestant christian sermon, it is Constitutionally prohibited...But then what's a little law breaking amongst FundXtians, eh?

I guess Jesus wants you to be a criminal?

Ha!

Hildegard's picture

I accept Jesus as my personal Savior

I, for one, am humbled by LV's equanimity and serenity in arguing the case for - whatever it is LV is arguing for - and in the face of such odious scorn and derision lobbed by Rikki, R Neal, Rachel, Whitescreek, and other lapdogs of Satan. From now on, I'm trolling for the Lord.

Rachel's picture

lapdog of Satan

I may have to change my username again....

LadyVols's picture

I, for one, am humbled by

I, for one, am humbled by LV's equanimity and serenity in arguing the case for - whatever it is LV is arguing for "

Thanks! I knew there was at least one open mind here! As for you taking the lord as your personal savior that is a great step toward heaven! Thank you again for seeing both the serenity and the equanimity of my thoughts and if we ever run into each other I will be the lucky one.
PS
Had a teacher in Sunday School that had your name and I always looked up to her. Course I was only 4 and she was in her late 30s but still she wasn't all that tall a lady.

LadyVols's picture

That might be the most

That might be the most insane post on several levels that I've ever read."

I am sorry. I was just trying to ask you to look at the idea of things not always being what we think they are today? If I believe God, god is bigger than everything and can easily see how a day to God, god could translate into a section of time that would fit into your idea.

As for calling me names, not a problem heard them before and I am fine with them. I just have this thought that God, god can be bigger than our understanding and easier to talk with than anyone we will ever meet while we are on his earth. Good friend who never got out of the 60s and is now in NC running a fun business once told me if everyone would just be quiet and listen all sorts of answers would come to them. I just never got into the quiet thing I guess?

I do enjoy your posts!

Troll=Stupid

rikki's picture

tiny is the new big

I just have this thought that God, god can be bigger than our understanding and easier to talk with than anyone we will ever meet while we are on his earth.

By embracing Creationism and its kin, you are advocating a tiny god, one confined by words in a single book, rather than the bigger god who teaches us not only through words, but also through Creation itself.

cafkia's picture

Read Matthew chapter 6,

Read Matthew chapter 6, verses 5 and 6 and tell me again what"Christians" think of the opening prayer at public functions. Read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes and then point me to one (1) ONE!! person who actually appears to be republican and following the teachings of Christ.

If you are not doing as Christ is alleged to have instructed, you simply are not a Christian no matter how much you may admire him or say you do. Since I have been unable to find the words of Christ that outline women's 2nd class status, I must therefore conclude that your minister is no Christian. You should probably look for another spiritual leader.

If the purpose of the church is not to disseminate the teachings of the Christ, then what do they exist for? I will allow that even if the bible is total bunk, the teachings of the Christ make sense for harmonius societal living. If the church isn't teaching that, they have no societally useful function.

CAFKIA

----------------------------------------------------------- 

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
  - William G. McAdoo

talidapali's picture

I was always under the impression that Jesus Christ...

gave Christianity the laws that he thought were the most important ones to live by.

Mark 12:28-34 The most important of all of the commandments is this: You shall love the Lord your God will all of your heart, and with all of your soul, and with your entire mind, and strength.

Let the second commandment then be, love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This is my commandment: that you love one another as I have loved you! There is no greater law...

I have to say, I don't see much of that kind of law-abiding coming from fundamentalist churches, Republicans, and others who claim to be Christians.
_________________________________________________________

"You can't fix stupid..." ~ Ron White"

"I never said I wasn't a brat..." ~ Talidapali

KTB's picture

Amen to the Golden Rule

talidapali,

Amen! And the same for Matthew 22:34-40. 40- "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

If Christians practiced those verses a little more, there would probably be less people who hate the religion. After all, what is so bad about the Golden Rule?

KTB

WhitesCreek's picture

Uh Huh

After all, what is so bad about the Golden Rule?

Nothing...it is an excellent tenet of Buddhism.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.

More information about formatting options

CAPTCHA
This question is used to make sure you are a human visitor and to prevent spam submissions.
Image CAPTCHA
Enter the characters shown in the image.

Lost Medicaid Funding

To date, the failure to expand Medicaid/TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding.

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Local Media Blogs

Shopper Columns

Local News

News Sentinel

State News

Wire Reports

Site Statistics

Last 7 days:
  • Posts: 24
  • Comments: 293
  • Visits: 12,246
  • Pageviews: 29,360
Last 30 days:
  • Posts: 106
  • Comments: 1609
  • Visits: 48,136
  • Pageviews: 122,390

TN Progressive

Nearby:

Beyond:

At large: