The News Sentinel is coming with a story about Scoobie Moore and Lee Tramel's Excellent Trip to Nashville yesterday, during which they evidently looked up Knox County lobbyist Joe May and threatened yank his contract. Not sure how they plan to do this, since hiring a lobbyist is clearly the mayor's prerogative.
Also not sure how they planned to get around the Sunshine Law, since they are both county commissioners, but they evidently are not concerned.
Earlier in the day, Moore sent a message to one of Bud Gilbert's clients, Hallsdale-Powell Utility District, demanding to see records of payments to Gilbert on the grounds that since Gilbert is working for Ragsdale pro bono, he must be padding his bill to HPUD.
This would be the same Bud Gilbert who worked his way through UT as a paramedic, graduated with a 4.0 average and won a scholarship to Harvard Law School. The same Bud Gilbert who served two terms in the state Senate, where he won two Bird Dog awards from Common Cause as the most ethical legislator in the Tennessee legislature and then stepped down after two terms because he believes in term limits.
That Bud Gilbert.
And that Scoobie Moore. And Lee Tramel.
#9, these guys make Ragsdale look damn good.
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I saw Scoobie on the tee vee
I saw Scoobie on the tee vee tonight talking about the Joe May thing. Honestly, do these guys not understand that every time they open their mouths they're both making the public more disgusted AND making Ragsdale look good?
Political geniuses they are not.
P.S. I hope HPUD told Moore to take a flying leap.
Here
Here t'is:
(link...)
What's Really Going On????
Betty you do such a great job sniffing out a skunk....what is really going on here? Why is Moore and Tramel so busy with stirring up trouble? What is the real agenda? Is this group trying to pave the path for a "Hutchison for Mayor" campaign? I think I would tell the girls(Moore & Tramel)to get their panties out of wad and let Knoxville move forward. If this group of bone heads aren't careful everybody's going to start feeling really sorry for Plastic Mike.
Moore or less
I am curious to know if there is anybody on this forum who would defend the actions of Moore, in particular. If so, how would you excuse, what seems to be, such ignorant and disrespectful behavior to the Knox County citizens?
KTB
easy
If so, how would you excuse, what seems to be, such ignorant and disrespectful behavior to the Knox County citizens?"
This is an easy question. See the above mentioned AND the county mayor could care less about the citizens of Knox County. It really was underlined when we watched all the back
door dealings last month right on our computers or televisions.
A "do over" would only be good if it included everyone including the mayor! Keep a weather eye on the sentinel, as they continue to side with the mayor and while we are at it, everyone should encourage Ms Bean to get into the fight, even though her paper is owned by the parent company of the sentinel it is obvious they are not controlled by them. She should investigate and dig and really put the big light on all of these Skunks!
Go Betty and go LADY VOLS!
How could a "do-over"
How could a "do-over" include the mayor, or anyone else who wasn't ruled term-limited by the court?
The question is, of course, rhetorical, because the answer is that it couldn't.
Scoobie's faction is running wide-open and attacking anyone who opposes them. They are evidently too stupid to understand that they are also handing anyone who opposes them the high ground. Maybe it feels so good to inflict punishment that they haven't thought through the consequences. They're not real good at thinking.
It's not a question of the News Sentinel doing Ragsdale's bidding -- they are doing what any reasonable person could reasonably expect a major daily newspaper to do: protecting the public process and the public's right to know.
Some of you need to relax that automatic anti-Ragsdale kneejerk reaction and try to judge each sitation on its own merits.
JUST GO AWAY
I wish the whole group of bums would just all GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They are embarrassing our county...
Maybe we should bring back Cas Walker back and he could slug one or two of them!!!!!!!
This is an easy question.
This is an easy question. See the above mentioned AND the county mayor could care less about the citizens of Knox County
LadyVols, do I understand your defense of Scott Moore to be, two wrongs make a right? I am not against any criticism you may have of the Mayor and his actions but I can't see justifying Moore's behavior with something so childish as "if he did it, so can I".
Also, it seems to me that if Moore wanted to make this whole thing go away he could simply allow for a re-do, which would drop the lawsuit, have the public forums, and then vote back in the same people without having any deliberations. Consequently they could no longer be accused of breaking the Sunshine Law. Legal experts, is that right? Also, would this suffice to clear the other lawsuit?
KTB
KTB, I will try to answer your question...
Also, it seems to me that if Moore wanted to make this whole thing go away he could simply allow for a re-do, which would drop the lawsuit, have the public forums, and then vote back in the same people without having any deliberations. Consequently they could no longer be accused of breaking the Sunshine Law. Legal experts, is that right? Also, would this suffice to clear the other lawsuit?
If you watch the YouTube Channel 9 videos of the McElroy lawsuit you will see many of the Commissioners are deeply offended by the charge of the Sunshine Law violation. Right or wrong that is how they personally feel. Mike Hammond says he doesn’t know that a violation occurred and he wants an explanation. Paul Pinkston says that accepting the News Sentinel's offer to drop the lawsuit in exchange for a do-over would be an admission of guilt and he won’t go for that.
County Commission has been in business for over 20 years and one has to question the timing of this Sunshine Law lawsuit. Many weeks ago Beanster and I were live blogging a County Commission meeting and I asked if it was a violation of the Sunshine Law when the Commissioners had a recess and would go behind that wall behind the Chairman. I have had some time to think about this Sunshine Law issue. Beanster wrote she was sometimes behind that wall if I remember correctly. Beanster straighten me out if I don’t have that right. Now if a reporter can be there, then how if there a violation?
Here is my point, why doesn’t the News Sentinel use their considerable budget to have a reporter sit right next to that wall? When the Commissioners go behind the wall follow them and listen. If the Commissioners tried to prevent that then I think it would be a violation of the Sunshine Law. But if it is normal practice for reporters to be there then where is the basis for this lawsuit? If reporters have been there in the past how is it a violation of the Sunshine Law? Why hasn't the News Sentinel done more to report these meetings?
For what it is worth. I feel the 2nd and 4th Districts did not receive due consideration in the January 31st debacle. But neither did the 5th District where I live. Except that in the 5th District we did get the most qualified appointee in Frank Leuthold. In the 2nd and 4th Districts no matter who was appointed half the people would have felt cheated. If Jonathan Wimmer had been appointed the Amy Brolyes people would have been really mad. And so on and so on. The appointment process was not made for that many appointments. But it is State Law.
Aren’t we seeing that the cure is worse than the disease? I was not impressed by Bud Gilbert’s ideas for a special election. While Mr. Gilbert is personally very impressive his bill for the State Legislation is a real mess that just opens the door for all kinds of negative consequences later on. The idea of a do-over for any reason seems like it will not achieve any calming of the waters. The will still be many angry people. That is why we have elections. Isn’t it time to cowboy up like Uncle likes to say and move on the February 2008 election?
We would not be in this mess if the Commissioners that were term limited had stepped down nor would we be in this mess if five of those Commissioners had not sued to invalidate the Knox County charter. We would not be in this mess if the voters had not reelected the term limited County Commissioners.
The Knox County budget is like a bear awakening from its winter slumber. It is hungry and you do not want to be between that bear and the blackberry bush. This is the most challenging and contentious budget in the history of County Commission. When will the County get back to business? Is this the best time for all of this partisan polarized juvenile bitching? Shouldn’t we have done this much sooner?
If we really are serious about Ethics reform in Knox County we have to include the News Sentinel. It is the most powerful entity in forming public opinion in Knox County. KnoxViews is the biggest local blog in Knox County. It might reach 3,500 people a day. AM 1180 when it had Lloyd Daughtery on the air might reach 10,000 people a day. Hallerin Hill on WNOX might reach 25,000 per a day. The Knoxville News Sentinel reaches over 100,000 people a day. If you look at the front page article in today’s News Sentinel can you see an imbalance? Where is the reporting of Mayor Ragsdale and his team attempting to intimidate County Commissioners? When the Mayor meets with new Commissioners and explains the rules of law in Knox County where is the outrage? It is common knowledge that new Commissioners are told to play ball or they will not receive any news projects in their District. The News Sentinel has reported this I believe a couple of times with the Mayor’s statement by Dwight Van de Vate that it is untrue. I do not feel I am alone in the perception that the News Sentinel is very pro Ragsdale. But they are supposed to be neutral. So how can that neutrality be achieved?
I would suggest that the News Sentinel create an Ethics board of five members. Two selected by the News Sentinel’s staff who work for the Sentinel and three others from the community. I would suggest they meet quarterly to review both articles and Editorials to seek a neutral stance. What could this possibly hurt? Will the News Sentinel consider this?
many of the Commissioners
many of the Commissioners are deeply offended by the charge of the Sunshine Law violation.
Oh boo hoo. If they're offended by being caught doing it, they should stop doing it.
Obviously, Scoobie & Tramel aren't too worried about it - they just violated it again by meeting with Joe May.
If we really are serious about Ethics reform in Knox County we have to include the News Sentinel.
Please. I've had plenty of issues with the KNS - including their ridiculous "he's screwed everything up but vote for him anyway" endorsement of Bush in '04. And the way they barely cover local elections is unconscionable. But comparing KNS ethics to County Commission ethics isn't comparing apples to oranges, it's comparing apples to breakfast cereal.
The KNS is a private entity. No one who works for the KNS is elected by the people. I don't pay the salaries of the people at the KNS (unless I choose to buy the newspaper). The KNS doesn't make major decisions about schools, industrial parks, zoning, etc.
Also, neutral ain't always factual. This is the mistake I see cable news making all the time - they feel they must give equal time and weight to both sides. Sometimes the facts are mostly on one side. And when that's true, it needs to be said.
But the facts have a liberal
But the facts have a liberal bias!
jan 31
been covered more than any local political story i've ever seen,well,the fall of jake butcher may have got more ink.
"I would suggest that the
"I would suggest that the News Sentinel create an Ethics board of five members. Two selected by the News Sentinel’s staff who work for the Sentinel and three others from the community. I would suggest they meet quarterly to review both articles and Editorials to seek a neutral stance. What could this possibly hurt? Will the News Sentinel consider this?"
Nine, do you have any journalism experience? I'm asking honestly.
I work for the NS, so I suppose I'm biased (although I'm not speaking here in any professional capacity), but what exactly do you mean by "neutral stance"? Who makes that determination?
Who would choose such a board?
Also, you are conflating the editorial side and the news side. The news side is supposed to be "objective." The newspaper's editorials are supposed to take a stand on issues.
I've worked at a half-dozen newspapers, as a reporter, copy editor, in management. I'm well aware of the limitations and shortcomings of daily newspapers. But you're talking abou, what, an improper relationship between the county mayor and the editorial board? What exactly do you have to back up these allegations? That Ragsdale was endorsed by the NS? That the board has supported some of his policies?
I really want to know.
Ultron,
Nine, do you have any journalism experience? I'm asking honestly.
Does that matter? If so, why does it matter?
Who would choose such a board?
The News Sentinel.
I work for the NS, so I suppose I'm biased but what exactly do you mean by "neutral stance"? Who makes that determination?
The proposed Ethics Review Board would meet quarterly to review articles and Editorials. On many blogs a choice is offered “Is this offensive”? The review board would look at complaints from readers in addition to their own suggestions. A neutral stance means looking at the verbiage and tone of content. It might include a review of the column inches devoted to local government officials. The goal would be to insure no favoritism to any elected or appointed government official or cause. It is NOT a means to censorship. Consider this suggestion as the equivalent of quality control in a manufacturing environment.
This is a starting point. To consider the need and recommend a possible solution.
Gemini brings up an interesting point, “Also, neutral ain't always factual. This is the mistake I see cable news making all the time - they feel they must give equal time and weight to both sides. Sometimes the facts are mostly on one side. And when that's true, it needs to be said.”
The idea that the facts are on one side is a common fallacy. Facts have no relation to a particular side. Facts are inert. They have no partisanship.
Take for example two local Knox County 57 million dollars issues. The Midway Industrial Park and the Sheriff’s pension. In both articles and Editorials the News Sentinel has consistently said the Sheriff’s pension will cost 7 to 8 cents on the property tax. Yet no mention of this was made about the Midway Industrial park. I submit to you Ultron that there is a serious problem. What harm can there be to address it?
The News Sentinel has made a strong stand for Ethics review on the State and Local level. If the News Sentinel does not live in a glass house why not consider this?
9,
"Nine, do you have any journalism experience? I'm asking honestly.
Does that matter? If so, why does it matter?"
I was just curious. I should have asked how well versed you are on what newspapers do, since you don't seem to know the difference between the news pages and the editorial pages.
"Consider this suggestion as the equivalent of quality control in a manufacturing environment."
OK, so you are really talking about coverage standards. Not ethics. Ethics would mean, for example, your allegation that the editorial board has some sort of improper relationship with Ragsdale. I notice you didn't address my question about what evidence you have to support that assertion.
Your allegations in that regard would be like me alleging that you have a bias against the NS; I mean, just read your postings! Perhaps the NS did you wrong at some point? Perhaps you have a competing business? Perhaps you are shilling for a particular politician? I have no proof, but I suppose I can make those allegations if I so choose.
I am all for improving coverage standards. Some papers form a reader advisory board, made up of folks from the community, to tackle that sort of thing. (Usually more than five people.) I was involved with one at one of my previous places of employment. (I think the NS may have this sort of thing or may have attempted something like that.)
It's hard because the news is a slippery thing. Inch counts and definitions of verbiage and tone can only take you so far.
Negative Ultron,
I notice you didn't address my question about what evidence you have to support that assertion.
Please explain the difference in both the reporting and Editorials of the Sheriff's Pension and the Midway Industrial Park. Two 57 million dollars issues yet only one will make property taxes go up? That is how the News Sentinel presented these issues. How is that possible? One project favored by Mayor Ragsdale and the other opposed by Mayor Ragsdale.
How much more specific evidence do you require?
This also demonstrates the difference between reporting and Editorial comment. Meet me halfway Ultron and we can discuss this.
Whether you call it "coverage standards" or "Ethics Review" the case has been presented. What could it possibly harm?
Mr. McElroy, do you have a position on this?
R. Neal: But the facts have
R. Neal: But the facts have a liberal bias.
Heh. :)
I will say that the KNS has a really bad habit of running an editorial that is 90% the exact same verbiage they used earlier in a news story. That's lazy, and certainly makes it easier for folks to confuse news coverage and editorial coverage.
And 9, you know very well that I didn't mean facts were "partisan" - or even biased. I meant that often facts support one side of a story more than another. The real world is not always "he said/she said." There's a tendency in reporting - especially cable news reporting - to not only get both (or all) sides of a story, which is important, but to also present all sides as if the facts support all sides equally.
Just 'taint so.
Nine, you raise a good point
Nine, you raise a good point (admitting guilt) about why the commissioners (Moore included) want to fight the lawsuit only if you exclude the law director's several comments that state accepting the deal would not be admitting guilt.
Nine: Now if a reporter can be there, then how is there a violation?
I am fairly certain the location of the discussion in question is irrelevant. That would imply that commissioners could get together at a local park, restaurant, super market or gas station and pre-decide their vote. My novice understanding of the Sunshine law in reference to this occurrence is that these folks cannot collectively pre-decide their votes for the new council members.
Nine: Aren’t we seeing that the cure is worse than the disease? I was not impressed by Bud Gilbert’s ideas for a special election.
I agree. In particular the notion that there could be a counter suit against the re-do. I think this is a disaster and I think the N-S may have been better served by using its resources elsewhere as you mentioned. Possibly, spending more time investigating and repeatedly informing the public of all the back room deals that have and will continue to go on in Knox county politics, Mayor included.
But, at least someone is standing up for the public and getting the point across to Mr. Moore that there are people who are unhappy with the appointments. And let me qualify “unhappy” by saying that I think most people are unhappy about the way the commissioners handled the appointments and not about the appointees themselves.
KTB
Does the Mayor get a vote?
Number 9: Help. I want to understand how this works. Your comment was
"When the Mayor meets with new Commissioners and explains the rules of law in Knox County where is the outrage? It is common knowledge that new Commissioners are told to play ball or they will not receive any news projects in their District."
I thought the Mayor presents a budget to the commission for their vote. So how does the mayor control the funds for projects?
Please advise. Thanks.
PT,
I thought the Mayor presents a budget to the commission for their vote. So how does the mayor control the funds for projects?
Excellent question.
Prior to the January 31st debacle the County Mayor had much more power. At the time before the Chairmanship of Scott Moore the County Mayor had great power. David Collins was the prior Chairman of the County Commission.
Sandra and Betty have written extensively on this at the Halls Shopper News and to a lesser much degree the Metropulse has covered it also. Not much from the Sentinel except for Georgiana Vines and Michael Silence on his blog but not into the depth of the Shopper news analysis.
It is about power. You have to be able to count to ten. Ten votes in County Commission is needed for a bridge, or a zoning variance, or a new ordinance, or to modify an older ordinance. Ten votes means power.
Most people remember the old role of County Executive which did not have as much power as the new role of County Mayor. Mayor Ragsdale remade the office of County Mayor. First by having friends in Nashville change the name from County Executive to County Mayor. Then by using his authority to place people on important boards and committees. Then by using a Chicago style of heavy politics where you twist people's arms behind the scenes.
With this power and the power of friends in high place plus the power of patronage the County Mayor at one time controlled over ten votes in County Commission. He was in charge. Large and in charge if you know what I mean.
But in his quest to be the next Governor he got cross ways with the 800 pound gorilla of Knox County politics the former Sheriff. Shouldn't have done that. A critical miscalculation.
Now he is much less powerful and is in a political makeover to be the sensitive reasonable Mayor who cares about the people and what is fair, right, and just. Hence the outrage and call for the special election etcetera. Hence the open warfare with Scott Moore and Lumpy Lambert. Hence the man of the people performance since January 31st.
So far the County Mayor is winning the PR battle because the January 31st debacle was so ham handed. However, the Chicago style of politics favored by the County Mayor, minus the bullets of course, has a big drawback. Sooner or later everyone you walked on comes for payback.
This is far from over. In the end the losers will be the people. But we had it coming because there are not enough of us that give a damn. When only 1 in 4 people vote you get Chicago politics even if you live in East Tennessee.
Common Pinkston
I can't believe Pinkston brought race into this. I think I'll personally campaign for his opposition. The N-S is a group of racist people. Seriously?
How about the simple fact that no matter what race you belong to, if you are running for a public office, you need to disclose this information before hand. Further, this is completely ignoring the fact that his qualifications for the position weren't nearly as good as some of the candidates who were also asking for the position.
KTB
I must have missed
I must have missed something. Where did race come in to it?
"he got cross ways with the
"he got cross ways with the 800 pound gorilla of Knox County politics the former Sheriff. Shouldn't have done that. A critical miscalculation."
So the Sheriff, to use your Chicago analogy, "rubbed him out"?
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
In the Nine coverage part 6,
In the Nine coverage part 6, which can be found here and about 6 minutes into it.
If those folks feel Jordan was the right candidate for the position because of his mom or his credentials, then that is fine with me. I just don't see how race has anything to do with N-S reporting that he was arrested for selling drugs.
KTB
"The case has been
"The case has been presented." Uh-huh. Hey, if the NS got something wrong or isn't covering something properly in your opinion, by all means ask Jack or whoever is covering that story. I'm all for improving how the NS covers things.
But I hope you understand the leap between what you've presented here, and accusing the editorial board of having an improperly close relationship with Ragsdale, or however you put it previously.