Farragut High zoning

Thu

Feb 22 2007

11:31 am

By: R. Neal

An interesting conversation developed in another unrelated thread. I am moving the comments here for further discussion of this controversial and important topic.

The issue boils down to, well several things. Should the new high school be Farragut Middle School or a new high school? How does a new high school built in a different district relieve crowding at Farragut High? Does the proposal go too far in relieving crowding at Farragut High by rezoning too many students? Does the plan take into account where the growth is occurring? Is $40 million too much for Knox County taxpayers to spend to help out the town of Farragut? Do Farragut residents feel they needed a new $40 million school? I think I've summarized it correctly, apologies if not.

Read more after the jump and join in the conversation...

Tamara Shepherd on Tue, 2007/02/20 - 9:06am:
In a quick (but off-topic) observation, I noticed another interesting comment on Brian's Blog.

Apparently, he attended the recent Farragut community meeting organized to discuss zoning issues relating to the new Hardin Valley High School.

Brian appears to endorse the notion that the new high school should become a new Farragut Middle, instead. He notes that the current Farragut Middle facility could become home to Farragut High's 9th and 10th grade population, while the existing Farragut High could house only the 11th and 12th grade students (lots of logistical problems here, but I'll not digress even further).

Wasn't this notion of a new west Knox County high school promoted in part to relieve overcrowding at Bearden High and Karns High, as well? These folks really *do* think they operate their own independent school system!

PT on Wed, 2007/02/21 - 10:03pm:

Yes, we thought it was supposed to relieve overcrowding at karns, bearden, farragut and even west high school according to the original memo that recommended a new high school be built. The last proposed HVHS zone from the school board did not rezone any current Bearden students to HVHS. The only Karns students rezoned to HVHS were those living in what is called Hardin Valley. The school board did not do adequate research on the growth in the southwest quadrant of knox county. The same data that suggested relief was needed at four high schools, now suggests all the growth is coming south of interstate 40 and west of pellissippi.

We are spending $40 million+ of taxpayers dollars to alleviate overcrowding in one community by building a school in another community. If Halls was overcrowded would you build the new school in the Powell community? That is what is being done. People don't seem to know the Town of Farragut boundaries or the high school zone. About half the population of Farragut High School lives in the Town of Farragut, the other resides in Knox County. Both areas consider themselves the Farragut community because life is centered around the schools --like other parts of the county. The high school should have been built in the northshore and pellissippi area -- the area with the most growth. The school board voted to put the school in the wrong location -- again our tax dollars at work. Most people will at least double the distance they travel to get to school. Some will travel four times the distance they drove to FHS. A small group of children who currently attend school together from kindergarten to 8th grade will be a small minority at their new high school. The whole Knox County school zones take little into consideration of managing feeder schools and keeping children together through high school. For example, Northwest middle school serves multiple high schools. This is not good for students. Other concerns include inexperienced teenagers driving on accident ridden Pellissippi Parkway or down Watt Road with all the trucks. Do you need more?

Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 7:39am:
PT: "Do you need more?"

Well, I guess so. I've read your post through twice, and all I'm grasping is that you believe your community is entitled to utilize *all* of a $40+ million facility intended to relieve overcrowding for four school communities.

You ask, rhetorically, "if Halls was overcrowded would you build the new school in the Powell community?" I don't know where I'd build it, but I certainly wouldn't build it in Halls--it's overcrowded, remember? Farragut already has a primary/intermediate school serving 2000 children--does your community want a high school to serve 4000, too? Or does your community just want two high schools serving 2000 each? That wasn't the plan pitched to the rest of us.

You appear frustrated that "people don't seem to know the Town of Farragut boundaries or the high school zone." But I would think that the Town of Farragut boundary is irrelevant WRT a new school intended to serve Farragut *and* all these other communities--who knows where the Bearden, Karns, or West communities consider their boundaries to be, either? And the Farragut high school zone, obviously, is obsolete with the opening of the new school, so why would that be relevant?

You maintain that "most people will at least double the distance they travel to get to school," but isn't that because FHS had way too many students in attendance to begin with? You refer, in fact, to that half of the population outside of Farragut but within Knox County (and Farragut, BTW, is also in Knox County). Is this the "suburban Farragut suburb" population that you seek to keep intact? Why? Isn't it a given that some persons rezoned will need to drive further than they had before, as are those families you cite who are living in Hardin Valley and presently attending Karns? In every school zone, *someone* lives on the fringe of the zone.

And as for Northwest Middle School serving multiple high schools, that's not the exception, it's the general rule--especially in the suburbs. Either students from a given elementary school are routed on to one of two different middle schools, or students from a given middle school are routed on to one of two different high schools. With the exception of Farragut High, most of our high schools serve only around 1200 students, so how many Knox County students do you imagine attend school together from kindergarten through their senior years? Outside of Farragut, not many.

I understand that rezoning doesn't break up just schools, but also school communities, and I do feel the same way about my school community--while it lasts. Still, it was never the intention of Knox County taxpayers that this high school, so difficult to fund, should serve just Farragut. I don't believe other communities will allow that outcome, and, frankly, I don't like the notion, myself.

(P.S.--My 5th grader lives closer to Karns Elementary than to Powell Elementary, too, yet he is zoned for Powell.)

PT on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 11:17am:
Tamara, we are saying the same thing.

No we didn't think our community needed a $40 million dollar high school, but that is what the MPC and KCSB is now telling us.

Everyone was told that the new high school was being built to relieve overcrowding at four schools. But when the zone came out, the only students moved from Bearden, Karns or West were the 350 students from Karns who live in Hardin Valley. The rest of the students are coming from Farragut High School zone.

Now MPC says the growth is primarily in the area west of pellissippi and south of interstate 40. This is why we don't trust MPC numbers. When the decision was made, the growth was effecting all FOUR high schools.

This is why the community is in shock that in order to populate HVHS they suggested taking up to 800 students out of Farragut. That is more than the number needed to relieve overcrowding. You might remember last August that the county commission and school board requested funding to build the school for 2100 students. Mayor Ragsdale suggested to build it for fewer students, which would have saved $6 million dollars which could have been used on other county projects.

I hope this makes more sense. I would be happy to talk with you in detail. I am not trying to be argumentative. I just want to get the information out to people who care about Knox County and how are many is spent. This could happen in other areas.

Topics:

R. Neal's blog
Login or register to post comments

Gosh

Submitted by mpower1952 on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:08pm.

I just logged in and found this post but don't have time to comment. I'll be back later.

Great idea Randy to put up this topic again.

And remember everyone, people are upset because it involves their kids. Don't overreact to comments.

Be a blessing to someone today.

PT: "This is why the

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:21pm.

PT: "This is why the community is in shock that in order to populate HVHS they suggested taking up to 800 students out of Farragut. That is more than the number needed to relieve overcrowding. You might remember last August that the county commission and school board requested funding to build the school for 2100 students. Mayor Ragsdale suggested to build it for fewer students, which would have saved $6 million dollars which could have been used on other county projects."

Thanks, PT. But I guess I don't see this proposal to transfer up to 800 students from Farragut HS as one being taken "in order to populate HVHS." Personally, I see it as the transfer needed to make Farragut HS of a reasonable size that it might accommodate future growth.

Data I'm looking at from the KCS website (Feb 06) indicate that Farragut HS presently serves nearly 2400 students, so a transfer of 800 students would bring your HS down to around 1600 students, which would still leave it as the largest HS in Knox County (or perhaps tied with Karns High), and in an area where growth is yet anticipated.

I'll offer, too, that I was relieved KC did not build the new HS to accommodate only 1200 students. As nearly as I can determine, that move would have created a slightly-smaller-than-average HS in a geographic area fully expected to produce higher-than-average population growth.

Truly, isn't this concern for rezoning coming from Farragut just the same "cold feet" any of us would have about departing our historic school community? Isn't it just a reluctance to accept the reality of "over developement" in Farragut? I'm stll listening...

No, Bearden would be the

Submitted by bizgrrl on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:30pm.

No, Bearden would be the largest school with approx. 2,000 students.

I wonder if these schools

Submitted by bizgrrl on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:24pm.

I wonder if these schools have actually grown that much in the past 10-20 years, except for maybe Farragut.

I believe, not sure, South-Doyle has about the same number of students it had in 1972. The distance from my house to South-Doyle is 8 miles. Riding the school bus, with all the backroads and neighborhoods to visit, I would guess there was a lot more mileage, definitely time, involved. As a student I never thought much about it. That's just the way it was. Up until about the Junior year, most everyone in my neighborhood rode the school bus. FYI, I rode the bus all the way through high school, boo hoo.

Bearden has been a large school for many years. I was surprised West has nearly 1,500 students. I always thought of it as a cute little school, not so little after all. With fewer children, as compared to the baby boomer era, will the schools need to continue to grow? Or is there growth from people moving to the area?

From the Knox County Schools Website (except mileage):

Bearden High School
8352 Kingston Pike Knoxville, TN 37919
Approximately 10 miles from Proposed Hardin Valley High School via Pellissippi Pkwy
2,009 Students (spread fairly equally between the 4 grades (9-12)
Faculty: Administrators 5,
Classroom Teachers 100
Librarians 2
Guidance Counselors 4
Custodial Staff 11
Food Service Staff 13
Secretarial Staff 8
Educational Assistants 6

Farragut High School
11237 Kingston Pike, Knoxville, TN 37922
Approximately 6 miles from Proposed Hardin Valley High School, via Campbell Station Road
2,309 Students (spread fairly equally between the 4 grades (9-12)
Faculty: Administrators 6
Classroom Teachers 130
Librarians 2
Guidance Counselors 5
Secretarial Staff 12
Educational Assistants 8
Business Computer Lab 4
Science Lab 1
Band Directors 4
Diversified Technology Lab 1
Math Lab 1

Karns High School
2710 Byington Solway Road, Knoxville, TN 37931
Approximately 4 miles from Proposed Hardin Valley High School via Hardin Valley Road
1,459 Students (Ninth Grade 425, Tenth Grade 376, Eleventh Grade 368, Twelfth Grade 290)
Administrators 4
Classroom Teachers 85
Librarians 2
Guidance Counselors 3
Custodial Staff 8
Food Service Staff 8
Secretarial Staff 7
Educational Assistants 8

West High School
3300 Sutherland Avenue, Knoxville, TN 37919
Approximately 14 miles from Proposed Hardin Valley High School via Kingston Pike/Pellissippi
1,472 Students (Ninth Grade 400, Tenth Grade 412, Eleventh Grade 360, Twelfth Grade 300)
Administrators 4
Classroom Teachers 81
Librarians 2
Guidance Counselors 3
Custodial Staff 8
Secretarial Staff 7
Educational Assistants 6

Just curious, but is it

Submitted by edens on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:41pm.

Just curious, but is it common for a suburban subdivision to be split between multiple school zones the way inner city neighborhoods often are, even at the elementary level? Parkridge, for instance, is split between Christenberry, Belle Morris and Sarah Moore Greene, while 4th and Gill and Old North are each split, N-S, between Christenberry and Beaumont (with Caswell and Cornellia, I believe, the dividing lines). 4th and Gill is also split between Vine and Whittle Springs Middle and Fulton and A/E

To some extent...

Submitted by Number9 on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:53pm.

Just curious, but is it common for a suburban subdivision to be split between multiple school zones the way inner city neighborhoods often are, even at the elementary level?

West Hills is divided between West High and Bearden High.

Bizgirl & Matt

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 12:58pm.

Thanks for your sharper eye WRT the Bearden HS population, Bizgirl--I now see that large school detailed in my notes, too. It would appear, then, that the rezoning under consideration would leave Bearden HS at #1 and Farragut HS/Karns HS tied for #2 as to size.

I understand and agree with PT's observation that more (some? any?) students should be rezoned from Bearden HS, too, but that circumstance still does not negate the need to reduce Farragut HS to a size that will accommodate future growth. Right now, the most-crowded Farragut HS is larger than the second-most-crowded Bearden HS by around 350 students, so it still seems appropriate that Farragut HS should see the largest transfer through rezoning.

Matt (glad you tuned in, datameister--we may need your census zone stats momentarily), I'm not aware of zone lines in my own community that actually split subdivisions, but I am aware of zone lines on heavily populated residential streets that split into two school zones neighbors living right across the street from one another. Suppose this split-subdivision phenomonen in urban areas is the consequence of the greater density there, then?

In our neighborhood in

Submitted by bizgrrl on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 2:09pm.

In our neighborhood in Florida, the city boundary went down the middle of the street. Kids on one side were zoned for a city high school, the others were zoned for a different high school.

Yes, bizgrrl, it's my

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 2:48pm.

Yes, bizgrrl, it's my impression that these school zone considerations are difficult and contentious everywhere.

Although PT's comments have left me more aware of the need for the zone to draw more students from Bearden, I still hear some unreasonable expectations from Farragut WRT the school board drawing some line in the sand around the Town of Farragut and/or enabling students in that community to move through grades K through 12 as an intact group. The Town of Farragut is a community lying within the Knox County school system just like any other, and very few students anywhere can expect the assurance of moving through their school years in a huddle.

As I've shared on other threads here, it's generally agreed among folks who know more than us that the need to maintain a relatively small school size is more important to high school-aged youth than to any other age group. It appears that, issues of childhood friendships and driving times notwithstanding, Farragut residents will ultimately need to turn their attention to this concern, too.

WRT Hornback's notion of opening a new Farragut Middle in the building, I was already confident that Carson is perfectly capable of chewing up Hornback and spitting him out--her comments here leave me relieved to think that maybe she will.

PT states:"Everyone was told

Submitted by kcarson on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 1:16pm.

PT states:"Everyone was told that the new high school was being built to relieve overcrowding at four schools. But when the zone came out, the only students moved from Bearden, Karns or West were the 350 students from Karns who live in Hardin Valley. The rest of the students are coming from Farragut High School zone."

What I think you fail to acknowledge is that the Board agreed that the proposed zone did not meet the stated goal of relieving overcrowding at the other high schools and had to be looked at again. As the community meetings progressed,areas were excluded from potential rezoning, and that made it very difficult,if not impossible to accomplish this. This is one of the reasons the Board made the decision to defer the decision until the principal was named and the zones could be looked at again (beginning with a "clean slate").
K

Then new facility not likely to become Farragut Middle?

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 2:08pm.

Thanks, Karen. Can we assume, then, that if the board is disinclined to go with this zone under consideration because it does not relieve overcrowding at other high schools, the board would also be disinclined to go with Hornback's notion that the new facility should become Farragut Middle? Obviously, using it as a new Farragut Middle wouldn't relieve overcrowding at other high schools, either. *That* was the proposal that ticked me off.

Also, does the board have an estimate of when it is this new zone needs to be determined? I would assume that making the determination *before* picking up the 07-08 capital plan deliberations would be useful, as the zone decision will impact on needs at other schools?

Not to be so picky, Tamara,

Submitted by bizgrrl on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 2:29pm.

Not to be so picky, Tamara, according to the Knox County Schools website, the rezoning under consideration would leave Bearden HS at #1 and Farragut HS #2, West, #3, then Karns HS #4 as to size. South-Doyle running a close 5th. The remaining high schools except for Austin-East (800) each have approximately 1,000 students, give or take.

Bizgrrl: About Karns High

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 3:39pm.

Yeah, I didn't comment earlier but I think the KCS website is a bit behind WRT the size of Karns High. I phoned the school last year, not long after they received that $3 million for an addition, and personnel told me they had 1700 students. (Also, stories I've clipped in the N-S place the Farragut HS population at "nearly 2400," which is why I estimated that a transfer of 800 would leave around 1600.)

If that's still the case, I guess we'd have #1 Bearden, #2 Karns, #3 Farragut (well, shoot--I can't see your post; is West 1500 or less?).

Tamara, I can't imagine

Submitted by kcarson on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 2:29pm.

Tamara,
I can't imagine changing the high school to a middle school. The need for a high school was established years ago. I won't speak for the Board, but will say that I think naming a principal for HVHS does speak to our continued commitment to opening a high school that addresses the needs in this area. The Board also stated its intention to try to name the zone before the end of this school year. As far as I am aware, we are still on schedule to do that. What I think people fail to remember is that this is still 15 months before the school will open. I acknowledge that this a difficult change for all those involved because it does impact our children, but I do not see the opening of a new high school as anything but a positive opportunity for KCS and the children and youth that we serve.

“WRT Hornback's notion of

Submitted by kcarson on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 3:32pm.

“WRT Hornback's notion of opening a new Farragut Middle in the building, I was already confident that Carson is perfectly capable of chewing up Hornback and spitting him out--her comments here leave me relieved to think that maybe she will.”

Tamara, I don't want to be too picky but I do want to clarify that I have no desire to "chew up"anyone. I find it just distracts us from truly working toward the real goal of offering the best educational opportunities to the kids of Knox County. Also, I think it is important to clarify that I don't believe changing the high school to a middle school was Hornback's idea (and I don't if he supports it or not). This came as one of a number of sugggestions from a small group that has been meeting together on this issue for some time. My only wish is that the talent and energy from this group could be directed to making HVHS (and all our high schools) exceptional rather than working so hard to avoid going to HVHS.

Karen: "Tamara, I don't

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 5:28pm.

Karen: "Tamara, I don't want to be too picky but I do want to clarify that I have no desire to "chew up"anyone."...and..."I don't believe changing the high school to a middle school was Hornback's idea (and I don't know if he supports it or not)."

Only cheekiness and absolutely no offense intended, Karen.
I am increasingly plain-spoken in my cantankerous older age, and I have spent far too much time, energy, and sometimes money in recent years combatting Hornback's numerous misgided and/or unethical schemes. I'm sure he knows how little I think of his shenanigans and I had imagined that you did, too.

Yes, Hornback is now promoting the Farragut Middle proposal on his website, Brian's Blog, (or was a few days back), which is where I became aware of the proposal. I suppose we'll learn soon enough if he embraces the plan so fiercely that any "chewing up" will be required, but if he does, there is no doubt in my mind that it would be for self-serving reasons.

All the best to you.

The real shame is...

Submitted by Bill Pittman on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 3:50pm.

I'm of the opinion that a new, farflung high school is not only the result of sprawl but is a catalyst for even more sprawl. Unless I'm mistaken, Knox County has approximately the same number of students now (~53,000) as it did when I last attended in '81. The parents of school age children have migrated north & west but we do not have to perpetuate the problem.

Kids on Chilhowee Drive are bussed 10+ miles to Carter. If in theory that is the number of miles we will accept for school commute, then we should look at a new school as a mechanism to thwart sprawl and build an even better city center.

Turn Knoxville High School on 5th Ave. at Central into a charter school in collaboration with UT with preference given to Morningside, Parkridge, Fourth & Gill, Old North, Island Home, Fort Sanders, the CBID and Sequoyal Hills and you would create something that could alleviate overcrowding by re-zoning inward, would increase restorations in the city's center, thwart sprawl and save tax dollars in the long run.

Just my .02,
Bill

well said

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 4:43pm.

well said, Bill.

Knox County also has one high school sitting empty which is 11.1 miles from Karns High School, 7.8 miles from Bearden High School, 2.5 miles from West High School, and only 13.4 miles from Farragut High School.

Rule High is located at 1919 Vermont Avenue Knoxville, TN 37921.

Karen, did your board look at renovating Rule High before wasting $40 million on a high school in the middle of a pasture that is just going to create MORE sprawl?

Tell us more about Rule?

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 5:55pm.

Well, rocketsquirrel, maybe I spoke too soon when I exclaimed that the explosive population growth at Karns High was the argument for locating the new high school in Hardin Valley. I hadn't yet read your post and I confess, I didn't know the old Rule campus was so close by.

Tell us more: How many students did Rule serve (or about how big is the building)? Is the acreage enough that the campus might have served a larger student population (athletic fields. bus access, car parking, etc.)?

This is interesting...

ask the school board

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 6:45pm.

ask the school board. They have that data, I don't.

I'm sure they'll talk about the building's woeful inadequacies. I'm sure it could be renovated spectacularly.

I asked Mayor Ragsdale about this a year or more ago. I asked "who owns Rule High?" answer: "We do."

"what are you doing with Rule High?" his response: "nothing."

This is the legacy of the city/county school merger. As Pittman eloquently put, we need to be growing inwardly, not outwardly.

edit:

closed in 2000.

Rule High School History

Just called the Knox County

Submitted by bizgrrl on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 4:25pm.

Just called the Knox County Schools Admin offices.
School student population as of 9/2006
Bearden = 2,189
Farragut = 2,306
Karns = 2,152
West = 1,466

Karns = 2,152!

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 4:59pm.

Wow! From 1400+ to 2100+ in what very short length of time? There's the argument for a Hardin Valley location, then! (Thanks--I was trying to make that same phone call this aft, and didn't get a minute.)

Tell us more: How many

Submitted by bizgrrl on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 6:46pm.

Rule was/is in the city, thus not the acreage of "rural" schools. Looks like could be 7.5 acres with 5.5 more adjacent empty acres owned by Knoxville College. Probably more equivalent to Fulton or Austin East or even Central. KGIS.ORG is not working at this moment so can't tell.

Rule no future as a high school again?

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 9:43pm.

Well, its disappointing to hear that the Rule campus is on so little acreage. I just tried KGIS again, and I can't get on, either, but this 7.5 acres, even given a little more undeveloped land adjacent, *sounds* like too little. I'd like to get a better frame of reference at KGIS...

I'm recalling the swarth required just at Powell High, though, which is half the size of Farragut High, to accommodate 18 school buses and hundreds of cars daily at arrival/dismissal, plus parking lot, athletic fields, as so on. Since the need is for a new high school larger than my community's Powell High, Rule doesn't *sound* adequate.

I certainly agree that it should be utilized again, but maybe for a smaller elementary or middle school population (who don't drive their cars to school)?

And it might have been a fix for Karns, but at 14 miles from Farragut, it offered no help there.

So much to comment on

Submitted by Pamela Treacy on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 8:30pm.

Thanks for the information. Unfortunately my draft of a response is almost two pages.

So I will give you the short version -- there could have been other options to solve overcrowding. We had capacity at all the other high schools if we rezoned.

I learned alot of this after the fact. As a result, I am now reading blogs, newspapers, listening to political readio and searching the internet to try to be a better informed citizen.

Thank you for all your time and concern for what happens in Knox County. Reading your posts over the last six weeks, has shown me that people do care about Knox County.

It's all about reviewing and questioning the data. From where I sit, the folks on the blogs have a better thought process then many of those sitting in government positions.

My question is how do you find time for this?

To Rocket Squirrel

Submitted by Sandra Clark on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 9:39pm.

Karen, did your board look at renovating Rule High before wasting $40 million on a high school in the middle of a pasture that is just going to create MORE sprawl?

This school was the brainchild of Mayor Mike Ragsdale, proposed as an alternative to the downtown library after opponents launched a petition drive to repeal the $30 wheel tax. It was never on the school board's capital plan.

This often-overlooked fact accounts for much of the confusion regarding the location and zoning for the new school.

Ironically, folks in Farragut voted heavily for the wheel tax, all the time assuming that somebody else's kids would be sent to the new school. - s.

Question for Sandra

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 10:43pm.

Sandra, I've been amazed today to learn that Karns High, which the KCS website indicated as recently as February 2006 served 1459 students, and which I learned last spring 2006 was actually serving 1700 students, now serves 2152 students as of September 2006. From February to February, then (unless the KCS website was out of date then, too), it has grown by 693 students.

I think you'll remember how hard I fought in 2004 to prevent Karns High from receiving capital funding for *anticipated growth* before my community's *historic growth* at Powell Middle was addressed. At this juncture, Karns High had no portable buildings whatsoever and Powell Middle had housed over 300 students, 11 classrooms, in rusty trailers on the back parking lot for 20 years.

I think you'll remember the rest of the pretty well-researched case I repeatedly made, too, with the school system's own spreadsheets, charts, and graphs in hand: Powell Middle had an older building than Karns High, a less-adequate design (1960s open classroom model lacking full walls and doors), less square footage per student, no science lab, and our school zone recorded the fastest-growing census zone in the state of Tennessee for the decade ended 2000 (72% growth).

I may or may not have told you then that former KCS Facilities Manager Doug Whited was maintaining a spreadsheet detailing square footage at each school that failed to recognize the entire Byington-Solway Vocational building as part of the Karns High campus. This two-story building was and is being utilized as a one-story building only to accommodate a hydrolic lift in one corner of the auto mechanic shop.

Nevertheless, Whited wouldn't correct his spreadsheet (he did a year later), no one would talk about renovating Karns High's existing voc building, Karns High received an addition, and the Powell Middle project was bumped back two years. It certainly appears to me now that Karns High has since experienced the growth it invited.

But my question: You told me at the time that you didn't think I'd succeed and I never got the chance to ask you why not. Was I too late, did I show up with too few Powell-area parents (they're slow to advocate), or did you know something that I did not?

(Yes, I realize our school will finally get underway this summer, but this sort of thing continues to happen, in Powell and elsewhere.)

It's not ironic, it's money

Submitted by mpower1952 on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 11:41pm.

Ironically, folks in Farragut voted heavily for the wheel tax, all the time assuming that somebody else's kids would be sent to the new school. - s.

Remember, the wheel tax would only cost Farragut homeowners $30 per car. Even at 4 cars in a family, that's only $120.

The alternative was an increase in property taxes. They were betting that their upper income homes would cost them a lot more than that in taxes.

At a PTSO meeting, I tried to remind people that the wheel tax would be a relatively huge burden on low income families but was met with silence.

I foresaw this zoning problem just by using a little common sense. The major growth in Farragut right now is in the southwest corner. These kids would have to be zoned for FHS.

Therefore the students in the north end would have to be rezoned. However FHS is in the north end meaning kids living very close to FHS would be rezoned for HVHS.

If I were a bible quoting person I might say, As ye sow, so shall ye reap. (If that's not correct, remember, I'm not a bible quoting person.:) )

Be a blessing to someone today.

What a surprise...

Submitted by Rachel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 12:03am.

At a PTSO meeting, I tried to remind people that the wheel tax would be a relatively huge burden on low income families but was met with silence.

Your a brave woman for even mentioning it.

Growth over last year/School sizes ranked before HVHS

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 8:29am.

Looking over this tangential conversation yesterday, in which we tried to rank high schools by size (both before and after proposed zone changes for HVHS), I see that some confusion might have been avoided if I had shared all of the data I was looking at, from the KCS website as of one year ago. Since it's so illuminating as to where growth has occurred, I'll share it now.

Numbers below are in this sequence: Size per KCS website at 2/06, size per Bizgrrl's call to KCS yesterday, then growth/shrinkage in student population over the last year. The last number is the ranking of the school size *before* the HVHS zone line is drawn.

Bearden High--1850/2189/growth of 339 students/#2
Farragut High--2309/2306/shrinkage of 3 students/#1
Karns High--1459/2152/growth of 693 students/#3 *
West High--1472/1466/shrinkage of 6 students/#4

*As I indicated yesterday, I was aware before Bizgrrl's call that the KCS website understated the Karns High population. They had 1700 students sometime last year.

Where was capacity (absent a new HVHS)?

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 8:49am.

PT: "So I will give you the short version -- there could have been other options to solve overcrowding. We had capacity at all the other high schools if we rezoned."

PT, given what I learned yesterday about the startling growth at Bearden and especially Karns, I don't understand your comment above. I'm understanding that a new HVHS should/could (geographic concerns notwithstanding)open with around 1700 students *now*, as follows:

Bearden High--2189 less 500 transferred out leaves 1689
Farragut High--2306 less 700 transferred out leaves 1606
Karns High--2152 less 500 transferred out leave 1652
(West High unaffected)

This scenario would equalize school sizes among the three existing and one new HS, land 1700 students in HVHS *today*, and, if Hardin Valley experiences the same growth rate in the 15 months remaining until HVHS opens, potentially fill that facility being built for 2100 students.

Where might this capacity for rezoning have existed, then, if no HVHS had been built? And also, how/why might Farragut High have avoided transferring out 700-ish students?

With all due respect, I have to disagree with Sandra that the notion of a new west Knox County high school was simply a ploy of the mayor (and I don't care for his tactics, either)!

where are the others?

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 9:15am.

why are you only listing capacity at those schools? A fair list would include current populations/capacity at ALL Knox County High Schools.

As I said before, without

Submitted by bizgrrl on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 9:26am.

As I said before, without specifics, South-Doyle running a close 5th. The remaining high schools except for Austin-East (800) each have approximately 1,000 students, give or take.

South-Doyle has 1,338, per the Knox County Schools website, thus not completely accurate.

You can go to the Knox County Schools website to see the easily available, but slightly inaccurate, numbers. You would have to call Knox County Schools to get the most current numbers.

and their capacities?

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 11:36am.

and their capacities?

Cross-county rezoning to relieve suburban overcrowding

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 1:45pm.

rocketsquirrel: "Why are you only listing capacity at those schools? A fair list would include current populations/capacity at ALL Knox County High Schools."

I listed only Farragut, Karns, and Bearden because 1) they are the county's three most-crowded high schools, 2) their zones lie in the geographic zone expected to continue growing, 3) their zones are adjacent, and 4) they are the schools about which we have current information.

I understand from your and Bill's previous posts that you would like to see the center city repopulated (and so would I), but I disagree with you that causing families choosing to live outside the center city to nevertheless send their children to school there is either a possible or a palatable way to achieve that repopulation.

I don't think that rezoning is *possible* among existing high schools because 8 of the 12 are already utilizing portable buildings (per the KCS Facilities Deptartment in 2004, only West, Powell, Gibbs, and Fulton are not) and 5 of the 12 high schools are utilizing the labor and materials available through students in their Building Trades vocational programs to *build their own portables* (per school board Rex Stooksbury, and Powell is one of these, where we now have two portables under construction). I think you can see that the only high schools not overcrowded (that's West, Fulton, and Gibbs) are too far-flung to reasonably offer any relief to those most-overcrowded high schools located west, namely Farragut, Karns, and Bearden. The distance from Farragut High to Gibbs High, after all, is 27.61 miles per the Mapquest I ran.

Similarly, I don't think that rezoning is *possible* utilizing the former Rule High campus for the reasons I cited: that, at 13.4 miles, it is too far from Farragut, that it appears to sit on too little acreage, and that it likely is too small a building to accommodate the 1700 West Knox students in need of better facilities.

I don't think that rezoning is *palatable* for all the reasons we both understand. Bill (hello, after a long absence), your suggestion to rezone inward to the Adult Evening School on 5th Avenue would impact school communities spanning a 16.7 mile distance (per Mapquest) from Farragut inward, and presumably, based on your thoughts of communities that might attend such a new school, cause changes to the A-E, Central, South-Doyle, and West zones, in addition to those changes already imminent in the three West Knox HS zones, creating a total of seven impacted high schools. That's a pretty good-sized riot, I'm afraid.

Of course, the school board is charged with maintaining a delicate balance between rezoning school populations (the cheapest alternative, but the most emotionally volatile one) and building new schools (the most palatable alternative, but the most expensive one). Suggestions offered thus far to undertake cross-county rezoning to relieve overcrowding in west KC appear physically impossible, tremendously unpalatable, or both.

explain please

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 1:48pm.

wait...it's ok to rezone from one west knox county school to another west knox county school, but not ok to rezone from a west school to a central school?

explain, please. you also ignore the fact that on an infrastructure basis, our capacity is just fine, thanks.

rocketsquirrel: "...but not

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 2:00pm.

rocketsquirrel: "...but not ok to rezone from a west school to a central school?"

What is the central school or schools you see that may accommodate the 1700 student overflow at Farragut/Bearden/Karns?

Or are you suggesting cross-county rezoning over the 28 mile swarth from Farragut to Carter?

rezoning

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 4:38pm.

rezone bearden kids to west, west and karns kids to a reopened rule, farragut kids to bearden and karns, karns kids to powell, powell kids to halls or central, etc. etc. We have excess capacity of 4500. Our high schools are only 77% full. we don't need new schools. we need to enhance the ones we've got. That means rezoning. Level it out across the system. You might have to modify or increase district sizes by a couple of miles. Oh the horror!

Our school board is playing economic class warfare by asserting west Knox need a new high school when the system is at that low a capacity.

my point is improve ALL the schools. not just the west ones. and yes, if you can rezone someone from farragut to hardin valley, you can rezone eastwardly into adjacent districts.

let me say one more time, taxpayers: $40 MILLION for a school we DID NOT need.

That means rezoning. Level

Submitted by Rachel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 7:55pm.

That means rezoning. Level it out across the system. You might have to modify or increase district sizes by a couple of miles. Oh the horror!

And heaven forbid that someone in Farragut has to drive a few extra miles to take their kids to school (although the kids undoubtedly drive themselves for the most part). Of course it's ok that there's only one high school south of the river - which means a lot of kids have to travel pretty far to get to it. Or that kids in the Holston Hills area are zoned for Carter.

Look, why would a system-wide rezoning be such a calamity (other than the fact that it would piss off a lot of west Knoxvillians)? And such a leveling out would mean more attention would be paid to inner city schools, which probably means they would improve, which would mean more folks would be willing to live closer in and send their kids there, which would mean less sprawl.

We're in an untenable situation in a lot of ways. Maybe it calls for drastic solutions.

One last try...

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 12:10pm.

Sigh. Gemini, my bub, I'll make one last attempt to point out your blind spot: School rezoning is not a device to be utilized for repopulating communities, nor does holding a minor student population hostage through the daytime hours constitute "repopulation." They all go home by 3:30, remember?

Some of you folks seem awfully ready to stand the entire county on its collective ear to push for high school rezoning impacting a student population of nearly 20,000 kids, affecting 11 (or even 12) high schools, and spanning almost 30 miles, replete with smart aleck remarks about persons disinclined to incur increased commuting distances, all the while doggedly insisting on your divine right to maintain five South Knox elementary schools serving 100 or 200 kids each, within a three-mile radius of one another. So who is it that's a bit lazy on increased commuting distances?

Look, if you want to improve your community's schools, at least to the extent that increased financial resources to classrooms may imporve them, you need to wake up to the reality of your choices that are robbing your community's schools of financial resources.

As I've explained before, the single largest costs at any school are personnel costs. Your choice to assume the costs of paying for principals, secretarial staff, custodial staff, and cafeteria staff for a student population of 100 or 200 students carries a very real opportunity cost WRT the dollars your community's school can direct to classrooms. So does your choice to hire teachers for classrooms as small as 8 or 10 students. So does your choice to repair, maintain, and heat/cool tiny, decrepit and energy-inefficient buildings. Want to increase your school community's financial resources going to the classroom? Take some responsibility for how you are choosing to spend scarce dollars.

I've also explained before how it is that the state's funding formula does not support the inefficiency of your choices. The BEP doesn't afford a nickle toward those absurdly top-heavy personnel costs you choose. You're able to maintain your practices only by robbing the *local* school budget of my community's dollars, so cut it out.

Your community's efforts toward redevelopment through projects like the waterfront project are the right focus, and I applaud your efforts. My observation is that the project should also address creating a more-efficient, higher-performing elementary school, too. It would be the crown jewel of your redevelopment effort, and I offer 100%support for my tax dollars contributing to that cause.

Just so you understand, I share your concern about urban sprawl. Where we differ is that I think our efforts will be most effective to "hold the line" and to turn our attention to refilling this core in our city that has emptied. I don't think, though, that any effort to contract boundaries where growth has already developed will be successful. To attempt that steps on the toes of folks as committed to their existing communities as you are committed to yours.

And finally, because some are so inclined to stereotypes and class warfare, allow me to offer my personal profile: I don't live in a $300,000 French chateau on a quarter-acre lot, I live in a modest rancher on family property; I don't drive an SUV, I drive a subcompact; I'm not a trust fund baby, I put myself through college selling plasma and tin cans; and I continue to have a strong emotional attachment to my former community of 4th & Gill. I'm a social liberal with some business acumen--they're not mutually exclusive qualities, so that shoe doesn't fit, either.

OK, then.

My observation is that the

Submitted by Rachel on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 12:11pm.

My observation is that the project should also address creating a more-efficient, higher-performing elementary school, too. It would be the crown jewel of your redevelopment effort, and I offer 100%support for my tax dollars contributing to that cause.

I've pushed this over and over. IMO, this would be the single best contribution Knox County govt could make to the revitalization of the South Waterfront. So far, such reasoning seems to fall on deaf ears. But some of us are still trying.

A lot of the rest of your post is directed to the wrong person, or you're busy constructing straw men. Show me a place where I pushed for the "divine right to maintain five South Knox elementary schools serving 100 or 200 kids each, within a three-mile radius of one another." Hell, I never even mentioned elementary schools, although for the record I would like to see more small neighborhood elementary schools all over Knox County. They may cost more, but I also believe they would offer a better educational environment. However, I realize the difficulties inherent in moving toward such schools.

Nor did I suggest we try to contract the growth we already have. That would obviously be doomed to failure. I'd just like to see us push a lot harder to keep from sprawling further.

As for stereotyping you, also not guilty. I happen to know you well enough to know darn well you don't fit this stereotype. And I never implied you did.

Peace

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 1:01pm.

Sorry, gemini. On reflection, I think that debate was between rocketsquirrel and me (and rocketsquirrel, now you know how much I love your 4th & Gill). The memory goes first, they say...

Honest to Pete, call a meeting on a new elementary school for South Knox, and this North Knox County soul will be there. If its of use to you, I have hardcopy of that school system audit done in 2002 by MJM out of Houston. The chapter on facilities devotes significant text to outlining the need and the benefits of school consolidation in South Knoxville. It specifically outlines cost savings over time, too, enabling ya to get on the side of the county finance department.

(Final disclaimer: I'm not promoting elementary schools for 1000, mind you--just suggesting that, as a matter of degree, 100 or 200 students in a school costs everybody, including the students.)

It specifically outlines

Submitted by R. Neal on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 6:22pm.

It specifically outlines cost savings over time, too, enabling ya to get on the side of the county finance department.

Because, of course, cost savings should be job one in public education.

If you are going to go with the corporate bottom line profit mentality on education, then perhaps every school system ought to be judged on the annual income earned by it's output.

Then we can complete the commoditization of students as simply parts and raw materials moving through assembly line schools, expressed in terms of a profit/loss margin.

I'm guessing that even by that criteria most school systems in Tennessee won't measure up to Wall Street expectations.

(Just some good natured ragging on you, of course.)

Lower personnel/repair/maintenance/energy costs equal...

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 7:39pm.

...more dollars *directly* to our kids.

The cost savings don't go into my or anyone else's pockets, they're simply directed away from overhead and to the appropriate recipients.

The cost savings don't go

Submitted by R. Neal on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 7:58pm.

The cost savings don't go into my or anyone else's pockets, they're simply directed away from overhead and to the appropriate recipients.

I hope that's the case, v. reducing (or not increasing) the school system's budget as a "reward" (punishment?) for being fiscally responsible.

Yes, I am brave

Submitted by mpower1952 on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 9:14am.

I am Spartacus. ;)

Either that or a bleeding-heart liberal.

Be a blessing to someone today.

Hmmm

Submitted by Sandra Clark on Thu, 2007/02/22 - 10:56pm.

Tamara: Gosh, I've slept since then.

For years Powell was in the school board district with Farragut and Karns. The growth there outpaced the growth in Powell, and the board member lived in Farragut. I had no insider knowledge, but just added 2+2, I guess. - s.

There is a chart with the

Submitted by CL on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 12:32pm.

There is a chart with the enrollments and capacities of each high school in this document. The numbers were of Jan 2003. The chart is on page 14.

(link...)

breathtaking

Submitted by rocketsquirrel on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 1:18pm.

wow. that's breathtaking.

Our school system has the infrastructure to support 4,587 additional high school students without the construction of Hardin Valley High School.

Talk about a management problem.

note too, the bias of the report itself. It's title is "IMPACTS OF LAND DEVELOPMENT AND POPULATION GROWTH ON WEST KNOX COUNTY SCHOOLS."

(bold emphasis added.)

to rocketsquirrel

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 6:38pm.

rocketsquirrel: "Our school system has the infrastructure to support 4,587 additional high school students without the construction of Hardin Valley High School"...and...
"...note too, the bias of the report itself. It's title is "IMPACTS OF LAND DEVELOPMENT AND POPULATION GROWTH ON WEST KNOX COUNTY SCHOOLS."

I'm going to try to answer a succession of posts by several people over the last few hours...

1)The report you are looking at, that CL posted for our review here, is a school population *projection* requested by the school board in 2003. These *projections* were obtained for the express purpose of determining future growth among west Knox County schools because they were already overcrowded at the time the report was requested. No charge of bias is applicable here.
2) Because this report relies on *projections* juxtaposed with building capacity numbers (I refer to page 15), any determination of remaining capacity in a given year will be accurate only if both the *projection* of student enrollment for that year and the building capacity number were accurate.
3) The student enrollment *projection* was not accurate for the current school year. When we examine the *projected* school enrollments for the current school year 2006 in relation to the actual school enrollments bizgrrl obtained for us yesterday, we note that the *projection* underestimated enrollments by nearly 500 students among the four schools.
4) At least one of the building capacity numbers I know for certain is not accurate, although I understand that you may not have had the information on hand to realize that. The report indicates capacity at Bearden is 2280, but Bearden is presently housing 2189 students, per bizgrrls info yesterday, only through the utilization of 7 portable buildings containing 10 classrooms. Clearly, Bearden cannot accommodate the 2280 students the report indicates it can.
(The annual spreadsheets I rely on were prepared by former KCS Facilities Manager Doug Whited and detail the location of all school system portables. They indicate that Bearden does use and has used this number of portables for the years 2005 back to 2002, the earliest report I have, but I think Bearden has used these portables for decades.)
5) Because including the square footage of portables at Bearden in that school's capacity number leads to the mistaken impression that additional space remains at Bearden, I also question the capacity numbers reflected for two other schools detailed in the report. Are portables at Farragut (4 portables containing 8 classrooms in 2005) and Karns (1 portable containing 2 classrooms in 2005) also included in the capacity numbers for those schools? (Additionally, does Karns use just 1 portable after growing by nearly 700 students this year?) If these data are reported in a consistant manner among the four schools, I would exect so, which would result in an overstatement of capacity at those schools, too.

But again, in order to affect any eastward rezoning of all schools simultaneously, the school board would need to be assured that excess capacity existed in all *adjacent* school zones, no gaps, or else it would need to undertake multiple simultaneous building additions to allow the simultaneous rezonings.

Sorry I haven't been able to

Submitted by Pamela Treacy on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 1:59pm.

Sorry I haven't been able to follow along fast enough.

Tamara -- I think the large annual increase at Bearden noted above was due to a rezone, not huge population gains, but you probably already knew that.

For a massive rezone, keep in mind that Knox County policy does not allow someone to "pass" a high school to be zoned to another. There would have to be an entire shift east to make a massive rezone work. My point is that there is space.

The reason I brought up the space issue is that I do not believe all the ideas were exhausted before "they" decided to build a high school. My thought is many residents believed that our leaders analyized this throughly. After watching our county government in action this last few weeks, I now understand how this could happen.

Most people like the big high school in Farragut and many say they would rather have an addition to ease overcrowding rather than a new school.

I also suggest you look at the joint MPC and KCS report on recommendations for capital projects. It should be on the MPC and KCS websites.

Overall, the problem to solve is long term planning for education and schools.

PT: "There would have to be

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 2:14pm.

PT: "There would have to be an entire shift east to make a massive rezone work. My point is that there is space."

Even if there is space (and recall that you are looking at 3 year-old data), that space does not lie in adjacent school zones. Again, note in my earlier post that, moving from west to east, only West, Fulton, and Gibbs high schools are not currently relying on portable buildings.

Since those three school zones are not adjacent, this massive shift eastward that you suggest could only be fulfilled through constructing additions to existing high schools along that east-bound route.

Your suggestion, then, appears to entail both county-wide rezoning across a 28 mile swarth *and* the new construction to allow it to happen.

The problem with rezoning is

Submitted by CL on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 2:05pm.

The problem with rezoning is that almost every high school zone would have to be changed. Kids from Powell would have to be rezoned to Halls to make room at Powell for kids from Karns. I don't think that would fly with a lot of parents.

Also, there was an estimate that within 8 years from now, all the capacity would be in use and another school would have to be built anyway.

Tamara, My statement about

Submitted by Pamela Treacy on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 4:34pm.

Tamara,

My statement about capacity being available was related to the next statement I made which was "I do not believe all the ideas were exhausted before 'they' decided to build a high school." Maybe several additions to existing schools would have been less expensive.

Now we are dealing with a new high school and having to create zones for it. Which brings us back to square one -- a group of parents trying to create a solutions by proposing the site be a middle school rather than a high school. This is how this whole discussion started.

Yes such a proposal has its pros and cons and probably will not happen. Our hope was to possible save money by not building all the athletic fields and other needs of a high school. And supporting a unique concept of a freshman/soph campus that could benefit students.

Please do not fault us for trying to be a part of the process rather than sitting back and watching it happen.

Not faulting, PT--participating

Submitted by Tamara Shepherd on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 7:20pm.

PT: "Please do not fault us for trying to be a part of the process rather than sitting back and watching it happen."

I didn't mean to seem to fault you. Actually, my office is a wreck of file boxes and loose papers since we began this conversation yesterday--I've been trying to think through these various potential fixes, too. It's my experience that this close attention to the details will always make or break a plan. With the exception of a new HVHS, though, all the plans I've tried to think through are broken...

WRT this massive eastward rezoning, even if the cost of additions at nine high schools (that's less the three that aren't overcrowded and using portables now) were equal to or less than building HVHS, the question of finding available land for nine additions is problematic, as is the question of the KCS Facilities Department's ability to oversee the nine projects concurrently. And then the riot of rezoning as many as eleven high school populations concurrently, across nearly 30 miles? I truly don't see it.

WRT your indication that some Farragut families would just like a school larger than your 2306 at the current site, I really don't see that, either. All the counsel about huge high schools is that they are to be avoided for the good of students. And I especially don't see a Farragut addition given the continuing and projected growth rate there.

I had to pore over all these considerations for myself, rather than relying on any gut instinct, because I'm cursed to be a "cumulative thinker," as a former supervisor described me! I believe I've accumulated all that I can now.

You seem to be a very kind, thoughtful person and I've enjoyed talking with you.

This may be a crazy idea

Submitted by mpower1952 on Fri, 2007/02/23 - 7:19pm.

But, could the new high school be a magnet school. Then it would pull kids from all the schools and the ones most likely to attend would be those closest to it.

With the awful news on the nations high school graduates not being proficient in math and science it seems a no-brainer to attract the best students there so the other schools can concentrate on average and lover level students.

Or, the school could be a remedial high school for students who need extra help.

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why this is a bad idea but I just thought of it and threw it out. Who's going to be the first to say I should have thrown it out?

Be a blessing to someone today.

Why should West

Submitted by Knox Insider 007 on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 10:33am.

Knoxvillians fill up schools east ward so that kids at West would have to go to A-E or Central? Citizens with students have left the center city for better schools, better economy, better everything.

Citizens with students have

Submitted by Rachel on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 11:58am.

Citizens with students have left the center city for better schools, better economy, better everything.

Overly simplistic much? In the first place, lots of folks don't have the luxury of moving to the burbs. Should their kids get a less good education?

In the second, not everybody thinks "better everything" is outside the center city. I know it's hard to grasp but some of us like living close in.

"Citizens with students have

Submitted by ultron on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 3:51pm.

"Citizens with students have left the center city for better schools, better economy, better everything."

Ah, nothing like the age-old "schools" and "crime" arguments. Insert code word here!

better schools, better economy, better everything.

Submitted by Bbeanster on Sat, 2007/02/24 - 6:57pm.

Hmmmmm
I guess my friends with druggie kids at Farragut and Bearden didn't get the memo.
They do go to the best rehab facilities instead of to juvie dentention facilities, though, Brad.

Discussing:

Swastika, noose downgraded to "potentially divisive"?!?!? (4 replies)
Knox County Juvenile Detention Center troubles grow (2 replies)
Racist role model (2 replies)
Here's who attended a white nationalist conference at a Tenn. state park (5 replies)
Republicans clueless on health insurance (4 replies)
Trump said he’s looking into an Australian-style retirement program for America. Here’s how it works (3 replies)
This needs further checking (1 reply)
President remarks about sedition and treason, but... (2 replies)
Affordability, aspiration, rise up (1 reply)
Tech data centers using up water (1 reply)
WOW 19+ years (2 replies)
Can we trust the FDA? (1 reply)

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Knox TN Today

Local TV News

News Sentinel

State News

Wire Reports

Local Media

Lost Medicaid Funding

To date, the failure to expand Medicaid/TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding. (Source)

Comment viewing options

Discussing:

TN Progressive

TN Politics

Knox TN Today

Local TV News

News Sentinel

State News

Wire Reports

Local Media

Lost Medicaid Funding

Search and Archives

TN Progressive

Nearby:

Beyond:

At large:

Government

About