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Haslam urged to support gun violence
Submitted by R. Neal on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 10:55am.
Apparently there was some kind of brouhaha on the gun blogs about Knoxville Mayor Bill Haslam signing on to a mayor's conference resolution to work against the proliferation of illegal guns.
Naturally, the gun bloggers concluded that Haslam had signaled his clear intent to unilaterally throw out the 2nd Amendment and invite NY Mayor Bloomberg's anti-gun SWAT task force down to confiscate all their AK-47s and AR-15s using the secret illegal gun registry maintained by the KPD and the ATF and Hillary Clinton.
To the bunkers, men! The Yankees are coming and there's already one of them in Knoxville City Hall!
Uber-wingnut Steve Gill called Halsam out for a high-noon showdown, and tried to get him to renounce his position against illegal guns. Volunteer Voters has the audio.
To his credit, Haslam would not back down. He said he doesn't understand why anyone would not want illegal guns off the street, and invited Gill down to the KPD evidence room to see what they were talking about. Good for Mayor Haslam.
Sometimes a little common sense goes a long way.
(UPDATE: I forgot to mention, kudos to SayUncle for poking a stick at the Mayor and prompting a reaction. No matter what you think about the program, it's always interesting when the powers that be take blogs seriously.)
Submitted by SayUncle on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 12:09pm.
The issue isn't that he wants to target illegal guns (most politicos do and its not a bad thing). The issue is that he has allied himself with an organization that is clearly anti-gun and has targeted lawful gun dealers.
So the lawful dealer sells to person X 5 handguns. Person X then gets in his car, goes to a place where such a deal is illegal, then sells these same weapons to criminals. Since lawful dealer doesn't know what Person X is going to do with these guns, then lawful dealer isn't doing anything illegal. OK. I can buy that.
Here's the catch and why the "Sell Guns Like Candy" crowd are wrong. The end result is that illegal guns hit the street. What can you do about that when, in some states, you can buy relatively large numbers of guns over a short period of time with no meaningful record keeping? I know Bloomberg pisses you off, but he's got a point. When there is a gun death or wounding in NYC, more often than not, the provenance of the weapon is from outside NYC. If you take away the guns, these punks are without the only means they have instill terror in people.
There is a social argument to be made that NYC, for example, fails the gang members, but Bloomberg has been on a social prosperity tear in the City. I think a meaningful quote of his is this: "We do not subsidize companies to set up shop in NYC." This means he doesn't want half-rate companies trying to use NYC as a base and provide half-rate jobs. The other side of this has been enormous strides in cleaning up neighborhoods. Just today, he annouced that he will start enforcing the mandatory affordable housing provsions in building permits. He knows (because he's smart and reads the research) that quality housing equals quality people. He is willing to subsidize people to build a viable community. Almost all gang members live in neighborhoods beset with housing issues. When the housing issues are solved, then the gangs tend to evaporate. I give Mott Haven/South Bronx as grand example of this.
So it is hard to fault Bloomberg for being pissed that the 'sting' of the gangs comes from without the City and it is hard to fault him for attempting to fix social problems that create the gangs. Its a holistic approach and I really don't think he is attempting to take guns out of the hands of people in gun culture states. I imagine that if he were to run Tennessee (fairytaleland -- I know), you'd be damned pleased with him because he wouldn't touch guns in Tennessee and he would rollup the old sleeves big time. He's too smart to do the former and his record supports the latter. In NYC though, guns are not a sacred cow.
Note: I did not vote for Bloomberg. I voted 3rd party in that election. We have those here.
Submitted by SayUncle on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 2:14pm.
The end result is that illegal guns hit the street.
Yes and they always will. Read an article yesterday where England has an increasing gun crime problem. Funny, since guns are effectively banned there.
When there is a gun death or wounding in NYC, more often than not, the provenance of the weapon is from outside NYC.
Of course it does. Guns are effectively banned there, unless your last name is DeNiro or Giuliani or your loaded. Say, are they gonna prosecute that 53 year old, wheel-chair bound grandmother for shooting her mugger? She was, after all, afoul of NYC's gun laws.
you can buy relatively large numbers of guns over a short period of time with no meaningful record keeping?
Any gun bought at any dealer's place is sold using ATF Form 4473. If you purchase more than 3 in one week's time, a dealer is required to notify the ATF.
because he wouldn't touch guns in Tennessee
He's not even in PA and he's touching them there.
Here's an idea: put gang bangers in jail and keep them there. I know, it's a simplistic solution but one that would likely work.
"Here's an idea: put gang bangers in jail and keep them there. I know, it's a simplistic solution but one that would likely work."
Well, for murder, they do go away forever. NY has nasty sentencing laws with 25 years to life being the floor for murder with no chance for parole until you hit 25 years. The prisons brim with gang members.
But most of the guys get tossed in jail for lower level offenses that you can't keep them locked up forever for committing. That would be unconstitutional. You also can't make gang membership against the law. That's unconstitutional as well. Freedom of association. I know, it's inconvenient.
"He's not even in PA and he's touching them there."
So Bloomberg was elected to office in PA? Fascinating. All I know is this: Crime is way way way down in NY (and in the edge suburbs in NJ, etc) from when I was a kid. When I was a boy, you didn't take the subways above 77th street or through the Lower East Side let alone the outer boroughs. The subways are safer now than they ever have been.
As for old ladies blowing away muggers, was she licensed to have the gun? If not, they'll pat her on the back for bumping off a skell then charge her for the gun. I'd like to remind you that gun ownership is not illegal in NYC and it isn't terribly expensive to obtain an permit.
I have long maintained that gun advocates are often the one's least likely to have experienced gun violence. No stats, just a feeling. I have been on the wrong end of a pistol twice in my life. The people on the other end were weak and stupid. To say that I should have been armed myself is a classic race to the bottom. Then again, I am not weak or stupid.
I don't think that people shouldn't have guns -- it's their right to have them. I think they should be regulated like any other person engaged in a myriad of other dangerous practices would be regulated.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Submitted by SayUncle on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 5:38pm.
I was unclear and should have stated 'gang bangers who commit violent crime.' Not just membership in and of itself.
'So Bloomberg was elected to office in PA? '
No. but he was there pushing his anti-gun agenda.
'was she licensed to have the gun?'
Yes. she was illegally carrying it.
'I'd like to remind you that gun ownership is not illegal in NYC and it isn't terribly expensive to obtain an permit'
No, it's not illegal. It takes in excess of a year and costs about $600 according to a reader. Given that he was buying a $480 handgun, I'd say that's quite expensive.
'I have long maintained that gun advocates are often the one's least likely to have experienced gun violence. No stats, just a feeling.'
I'd say that's probably accurate. And due to location. I would dare say the average urbanite (who is likely anti-gun or has no interest in guns) is more likely to run into random gun crime than a rural person (who is likely to be pro-gun) is. In rural areas, gun crime seems to be among people who know each other.
'I have been on the wrong end of a pistol twice in my life.'
I've been on the right end twice. And no one got killed, though the guy I witnessed having his head beat by 6 other guys had to go to the ER.
'I don't think that people shouldn't have guns -- it's their right to have them. I think they should be regulated like any other person engaged in a myriad of other dangerous practices would be regulated.'
Of course. everyone just disagrees on what those regulations should be.
"No, it's not illegal. It takes in excess of a year and costs about $600 according to a reader. Given that he was buying a $480 handgun, I'd say that's quite expensive."
Yes, it is legal. And whereever your reader was trying to get the permitting he was off. You can get it done through a private agency for $199 waived with the purchase of a weapon.
As for your 'right side of the gun': You were powerless without it otherwise.
Where power ends, violence begins. -- Hannah Arendt
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
Submitted by Les Jones on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 2:14pm.
I'm not fully up to speed on the Mayors Against Guns, but any group that supports microstamping is up to no good.
AB 352 would have required that, starting in 2009, the interior surface or internal working parts of all newly-designed semiautomatic handguns in California be etched with a microscopic array of characters that identify the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. These characters will transfer to each cartridge case when the firearm is fired, allowing police officers to match a cartridge case found at a crime scene to the gun that fired it. This legislation would have made California the first state in the nation to require handgun microstamping.
There's no gun that could do what that bill requires (namely, imprinting its make, model and serial number on the cartridge case when fired), so microstamping legislation would effectively ban new gun sales.
So:
Step 1. Make all guns illegal.
Step 2. Take those now-illegal guns off the street.
Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)
Submitted by Factchecker on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 3:12pm.
...microstamping legislation would effectively ban new gun sales.
So:
Step 1. Make all guns illegal.
Do you mean make all new guns illegal, starting more than 2 yrs out? (As if there aren't enough to go around now, or that we couldn't buy enough before 2009 to do whatever it is we want them for--and that is again what??)
Step 2. Take those now-illegal guns off the street.
2nd non sequitur. When you say "off the street" do you mean removing them from the supply chain going to gun dealers? Or jack-booted thugs going door-to-door at Hillary's behest?
Submitted by Les Jones on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 4:06pm.
"we want them for--and that is again what???"
Shooting bad guys. Ducks. Paper targets. Coke cans. Etc.
Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)
Submitted by Number9 on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 12:44pm.
To his credit, Haslam would not back down.
Have you read Bloomberg's material? Haslam made a mistake, not backing down as you say is more about trying not to admit he made a mistake. There is no common sense in Bloomberg's new movement.
Submitted by Chuck Dhue on Wed, 2006/10/11 - 2:13pm.
Hey Billy, if you want to get rid of illegal guns on the street, why don't you offer unconditional amnesty and a "Gas for Guns" day. Give out a $100 gas card for each firearm surrendered.
In a criminal attack where mere seconds mean life or death what do you choose, 911 or 1911? I would rather run, call for help, do anything possible, but the right to protect yourself and your family is a civil right. Bloomberg is wrong and Haslam made a mistake. You can parse this until you drop from exhaustion.
The mission statement of Mayors Against Illegal Guns tells you all you need to know.
Our only interest is in fighting crime — and we are determined to win. The polarizing rhetoric of gun politics on all sides only obscures the tragic reality we see every day on our streets: violent criminals with easy access to firearms.
Even our more liberal friends can understand what is meant by “easy access to firearms”. It means for those of you in downtown Knoxville on the sixth floor that the intent is to make it very difficult to have access to purchase firearms.
The issue isn't that he wants to target illegal guns (most politicos do and its not a bad thing). The issue is that he has allied himself with an organization that is clearly anti-gun and has targeted lawful gun dealers.
---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?
So the lawful dealer sells to person X 5 handguns. Person X then gets in his car, goes to a place where such a deal is illegal, then sells these same weapons to criminals. Since lawful dealer doesn't know what Person X is going to do with these guns, then lawful dealer isn't doing anything illegal. OK. I can buy that.
Here's the catch and why the "Sell Guns Like Candy" crowd are wrong. The end result is that illegal guns hit the street. What can you do about that when, in some states, you can buy relatively large numbers of guns over a short period of time with no meaningful record keeping? I know Bloomberg pisses you off, but he's got a point. When there is a gun death or wounding in NYC, more often than not, the provenance of the weapon is from outside NYC. If you take away the guns, these punks are without the only means they have instill terror in people.
There is a social argument to be made that NYC, for example, fails the gang members, but Bloomberg has been on a social prosperity tear in the City. I think a meaningful quote of his is this: "We do not subsidize companies to set up shop in NYC." This means he doesn't want half-rate companies trying to use NYC as a base and provide half-rate jobs. The other side of this has been enormous strides in cleaning up neighborhoods. Just today, he annouced that he will start enforcing the mandatory affordable housing provsions in building permits. He knows (because he's smart and reads the research) that quality housing equals quality people. He is willing to subsidize people to build a viable community. Almost all gang members live in neighborhoods beset with housing issues. When the housing issues are solved, then the gangs tend to evaporate. I give Mott Haven/South Bronx as grand example of this.
So it is hard to fault Bloomberg for being pissed that the 'sting' of the gangs comes from without the City and it is hard to fault him for attempting to fix social problems that create the gangs. Its a holistic approach and I really don't think he is attempting to take guns out of the hands of people in gun culture states. I imagine that if he were to run Tennessee (fairytaleland -- I know), you'd be damned pleased with him because he wouldn't touch guns in Tennessee and he would rollup the old sleeves big time. He's too smart to do the former and his record supports the latter. In NYC though, guns are not a sacred cow.
Note: I did not vote for Bloomberg. I voted 3rd party in that election. We
have those here.
Yes and they always will. Read an article yesterday where England has an increasing gun crime problem. Funny, since guns are effectively banned there.
Of course it does. Guns are effectively banned there, unless your last name is DeNiro or Giuliani or your loaded. Say, are they gonna prosecute that 53 year old, wheel-chair bound grandmother for shooting her mugger? She was, after all, afoul of NYC's gun laws.
Any gun bought at any dealer's place is sold using ATF Form 4473. If you purchase more than 3 in one week's time, a dealer is required to notify the ATF.
He's not even in PA and he's touching them there.
Here's an idea: put gang bangers in jail and keep them there. I know, it's a simplistic solution but one that would likely work.
---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?
"Here's an idea: put gang bangers in jail and keep them there. I know, it's a simplistic solution but one that would likely work."
Well, for murder, they do go away forever. NY has nasty sentencing laws with 25 years to life being the floor for murder with no chance for parole until you hit 25 years. The prisons brim with gang members.
But most of the guys get tossed in jail for lower level offenses that you can't keep them locked up forever for committing. That would be unconstitutional. You also can't make gang membership against the law. That's unconstitutional as well. Freedom of association. I know, it's inconvenient.
"He's not even in PA and he's touching them there."
So Bloomberg was elected to office in PA? Fascinating. All I know is this: Crime is way way way down in NY (and in the edge suburbs in NJ, etc) from when I was a kid. When I was a boy, you didn't take the subways above 77th street or through the Lower East Side let alone the outer boroughs. The subways are safer now than they ever have been.
As for old ladies blowing away muggers, was she licensed to have the gun? If not, they'll pat her on the back for bumping off a skell then charge her for the gun. I'd like to remind you that gun ownership is not illegal in NYC and it isn't terribly expensive to obtain an permit.
I have long maintained that gun advocates are often the one's least likely to have experienced gun violence. No stats, just a feeling. I have been on the wrong end of a pistol twice in my life. The people on the other end were weak and stupid. To say that I should have been armed myself is a classic race to the bottom. Then again, I am not weak or stupid.
I don't think that people shouldn't have guns -- it's their right to have them. I think they should be regulated like any other person engaged in a myriad of other dangerous practices would be regulated.
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
I was unclear and should have stated 'gang bangers who commit violent crime.' Not just membership in and of itself.
'So Bloomberg was elected to office in PA? '
No. but he was there pushing his anti-gun agenda.
'was she licensed to have the gun?'
Yes. she was illegally carrying it.
'I'd like to remind you that gun ownership is not illegal in NYC and it isn't terribly expensive to obtain an permit'
No, it's not illegal. It takes in excess of a year and costs about $600 according to a reader. Given that he was buying a $480 handgun, I'd say that's quite expensive.
'I have long maintained that gun advocates are often the one's least likely to have experienced gun violence. No stats, just a feeling.'
I'd say that's probably accurate. And due to location. I would dare say the average urbanite (who is likely anti-gun or has no interest in guns) is more likely to run into random gun crime than a rural person (who is likely to be pro-gun) is. In rural areas, gun crime seems to be among people who know each other.
'I have been on the wrong end of a pistol twice in my life.'
I've been on the right end twice. And no one got killed, though the guy I witnessed having his head beat by 6 other guys had to go to the ER.
'I don't think that people shouldn't have guns -- it's their right to have them. I think they should be regulated like any other person engaged in a myriad of other dangerous practices would be regulated.'
Of course. everyone just disagrees on what those regulations should be.
---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?
"No, it's not illegal. It takes in excess of a year and costs about $600 according to a reader. Given that he was buying a $480 handgun, I'd say that's quite expensive."
Yes, it is legal. And whereever your reader was trying to get the permitting he was off. You can get it done through a private agency for $199 waived with the purchase of a weapon.
As for your 'right side of the gun': You were powerless without it otherwise.
Where power ends, violence begins. -- Hannah Arendt
True happiness is knowing you are a hypocrite. -- Ivor Cutler
'You were powerless without it otherwise.'
No, I wasn't. but it helped.
'Where power ends, violence begins'
Then why didn't violence break out? in both situations, violence was stopped.
---
SayUncle
Can't we all just get a long gun?
I'm not fully up to speed on the Mayors Against Guns, but any group that supports microstamping is up to no good.
There's no gun that could do what that bill requires (namely, imprinting its make, model and serial number on the cartridge case when fired), so microstamping legislation would effectively ban new gun sales.
So:
Step 1. Make all guns illegal.
Step 2. Take those now-illegal guns off the street.
Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)
...microstamping legislation would effectively ban new gun sales.
So:
Step 1. Make all guns illegal.
Do you mean make all new guns illegal, starting more than 2 yrs out? (As if there aren't enough to go around now, or that we couldn't buy enough before 2009 to do whatever it is we want them for--and that is again what??)
Step 2. Take those now-illegal guns off the street.
2nd non sequitur. When you say "off the street" do you mean removing them from the supply chain going to gun dealers? Or jack-booted thugs going door-to-door at Hillary's behest?
"we want them for--and that is again what???"
Shooting bad guys. Ducks. Paper targets. Coke cans. Etc.
Hey, Les, why don't we just call each other assholes and get it over with. - Somebody on the old Southknoxbubba.net (if that was you, claim your quote and win net.fame!)
To his credit, Haslam would not back down.
Have you read Bloomberg's material? Haslam made a mistake, not backing down as you say is more about trying not to admit he made a mistake. There is no common sense in Bloomberg's new movement.
Hey Billy, if you want to get rid of illegal guns on the street, why don't you offer unconditional amnesty and a "Gas for Guns" day. Give out a $100 gas card for each firearm surrendered.
In a criminal attack where mere seconds mean life or death what do you choose, 911 or 1911? I would rather run, call for help, do anything possible, but the right to protect yourself and your family is a civil right. Bloomberg is wrong and Haslam made a mistake. You can parse this until you drop from exhaustion.
The mission statement of Mayors Against Illegal Guns tells you all you need to know.
Even our more liberal friends can understand what is meant by “easy access to firearms”. It means for those of you in downtown Knoxville on the sixth floor that the intent is to make it very difficult to have access to purchase firearms.
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