Tom Humphrey has this report on a TNGOP proposal to require all Tennessee students to pass a civics test to qualify for a high school diploma.
I'm all for teaching civics in public schools. (I assume they still do? It's hard to tell sometimes with these kids today.) But this is a dumb idea. Kids get taught all kinds of stuff. They take tests to see if they learned any of it. If they make the grades they get a diploma. Why add special testing requirements? I'm sure special interest groups of all sorts could come up with a long list of other tests.
The sponsors say they want to make sure kids are taught about how government works, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. I'm guessing they would like special emphasis on the 2nd and 10th Amendments. And with the school textbook selection process being overhauled by the TNGOP, one can just imagine what kids will be taught about civics.
Anyway, requiring a civics test to run for state legislature might be a better idea.
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Yes, Tennessee students are already required to take a semester-long Government/Econ class, with nine weeks spent on each subject, in order to graduate.
Most students take the class as sophomores and some local high schools offer an AP section of the class to qualified students.
It appears that this proposal is redundant?
*
From Randy's link to the Humphrey column: "The bill requires the state Department of Education to develop the test and distribute it to all local school boards."
Oh, okay. The distinction here is that the End of Course exam for that required Government/Econ class is presently one administered locally, not by the state.
I can't guess what difference, if any, who writes the test would make.
It makes all the difference
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
"I can't guess what difference, if any, who writes the test would make."
Are you serious? If the state's political leadership write a single test, infused with a particular political bent, you can assure that civics courses across the state are constructed to teach that point of view.
A state EOC test generates raw data...
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
...that can be used to calculate student growth measures (although how you can have student "growth" when the student has never had the course before and doesn't take a pre-test is a mystery to me), which can then be used to evaluate the teacher of that class.
That's the difference.
I prefer they spend student
I prefer they spend student cycles on elections and voting. Researching candidates, issues, and actually voting in every election.
Curriculum should be closely examined
I know Sandra Day O'Connor has been promoting a civics curriculum as KNS mentions, but the evil Koch brothers have also written a social studies curriculum which I read has been adopted in North Carolina. Someone needs to look at this closely.
*
Rusty: Ha, ha. If it were "the state's political leadership," as in "our legislators," creating the civics test I'd certainly share your concern! What Humphrey's columns says, though, is that "Tennessee high school students would be required to pass the same civics test to get their high school degrees that immigrants must pass to become United States citizens, so it doesn't look like the state's political leaders or its Department of Ed would either one be creating the test. It looks like it's a test the feds have written, assuming that test doesn't vary by state?
Min: Point taken WRT all the other state-administered EOCs students take being used in teacher evals, but given that, as you say, we don't know of any pre-test to be conducted, and given my above comment to Rusty about how this test appears to be one already in use by the feds, surely its results couldn't/wouldn't be used to evaluate teachers?
We can't read the full text of the proposed bill until later this month, right?
HB10 text
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
Text of the bill, as pre-filed, is here:
(link...)
*
(in reply to tom humphrey)
Thanks, Tom. I should have looked for the bill's text myself, rather than asking...
So the text says the DoE will write the test, after all, but that it is to be comprised of the same questions used on the fed's test to determine naturalized citizenship. It doesn't appear that there's much room for hanky-panky indoctrination in that process, does it?
Provided test results aren't somehow worked into teacher evals, I don't think I have any objection to the test personally. Teachers, your thoughts?
CIVX much?
I sure haven't asked around much, but are there any teachers out there who think this is a good idea? It blows my mind that there are still way too many teachers out there who don't want to get involved in the politics of education...
Statistical Analysis of Voter Turnout Tennessee
(in reply to Dave Gorman)
from tn.gov ...
Statistical Analysis of Voter Turnout Tennessee
Election Statistics
*
(in reply to Dave Gorman)
...are there any teachers out there who think this is a good idea?
Hey, Dave. I'm not any teacher, but if you'll consider a parent's rather limited survey sample, I can tell you that both my children took that Government/Econ class in high school under an athletic coach and neither of them ever had any homework in the class, not even once. I can also tell you that both of them perceived the class to be a "goof-off" class. And I recall that one of them was allowed to skip the final exam altogether for having had perfect attendance during the semester. This was the standard section of the class, as their high school didn't offer the AP version.
That said, Tom Humphrey's column cites this as being the impetus for the proposed bill:
Whether or not my kids didn't get much from their own Gov/Econ class in high school, I'll guarantee you they knew this much going into the class, likely from as far back as elementary school!
(They both had AP U.S. History, but I can't imagine that these very basic government concepts were covered in that class? I didn't see it, anyway.)
Really, on reading this quote from Annenberg, I had to wonder if maybe there's something lacking not in our high school curricula, but in our elementary curricula? Isn't that the point at which kids should be learning government concepts as basic as these?!
I am taking issue with the
I am taking issue with the aside, "...it's hard to tell with kids these days." It's also hard to tell with adults these days. Apart from folks who regularly post on this blog, the majority of people I see in everyday life whether I'm getting my car worked on, sitting in a hospital waiting room, or just observing Joe Blow's expression of his views on this or that in op ed letter or man-on-the-street interviews, that most people in this country, of every age, are just really ignorant of how their government is structured or how it functions. It's not just "kids these days." /rant out.
Well, to a certain extent it
(in reply to Hildegard)
Well, to a certain extent it IS kids these days...
I understand the rock star's
(in reply to Knoxoasis)
I understand the rock star's cultural significance but I've never really been into his music either.
*
(in reply to Hildegard)
Really. And I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 people in my generation couldn't tell you who performed I left my heart in San Francisco.
No doubt. Old farts these
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
No doubt. Old farts these days.
*
(in reply to Knoxoasis)
Don't you kinda suspect that the "kids these days" cited in that Annenberg survey are the kids of parents who don't know any more about civics than their kids do?
That maybe the parents are among that 80% of registered voters who don't actually vote? Or who aren't even registered in the first place?
That's my suspicion, anyway.
Democracy--how does it work?
I am in favor of the Civics lessons. The lack of knowledge of how our political process works (or doesn't) is really hurting our democracy. I see it as a basic part of education in America. Lack of this basic knowledge is an impediment to participation in our society.
Civics test
"Lobbyists run your government."
"True or False?"
End of test.
:-)
(in reply to Average Guy)
Aced it.
now you see...
why so many people are concerned about Common Core. I find it interesting that people who couldn't care less about Common Core and its various biases, now get hot and bothered and a Civics test for high school. I would have no problem with a straight up Civics test. But there is the problem. It won't be straight up. It will have a Haslam Republican flavor. Not that I would prefer a Elizabeth Warren flavor either.
Civics was abandoned because it wasn't politically correct to some. And now very few people vote. I doubt few people here could pass a real civics test.
As we leave a republic and plunge head long into "democracy", Civics in high school had to die. It was an obstacle to "democracy".
This resurrection will be interesting.
I'm in favor of civics being
I'm in favor of civics being taught as long as its civics and not somebody's political version of civics (see "intelligent design"). Not sure why it requires a special, state-mandated test.
*
(in reply to Rachel)
But again, civics is already being taught in high school, via that required Gov/Econ class. And an AP version is also being taught at some high schools.
Apparently, the problem isn't that the class isn't being taught, only that it isn't being properly tested (or tested at all), the exam for the AP version aside.
Contrary to Bad Paper's prediction of a Haslam-centric test up the pike, though, this proposal is one to just use the Immigration and Naturalization folks' exact same test. Personally, I take some comfort in that approach.
Seems to me that a "state-mandated test" of that sort will solve the only real problem with our existing civics instruction.
When I took civics it wasn't
When I took civics it wasn't taught by the coach in the off season. My civics teacher was actually Ken Yager. Yep, the one who is the state senator from Roane County these days. His first job out of college was teaching social studies at South Harriman Junior High. I had him for Tennessee history and World History and I think for American History. But the one I really remember was civics. It lit a fire in me. Probably because my grandmother had already started the kindling by dragging me to all her political activities.
The point is, he taught it. We had debates, and a state legislator came and talked to us and I don't remember what all else. But there was no getting out of the final because of perfect attendance. It was a serious class and there was serious learning. And that is what's necessary. During the Ferguson Grand Jury mess, I had a discussion with a young lady who I know to be a serious student -- she went to Emory on scholarship -- who didn't understand the ins and outs of a grand jury. She told me that she had taken civics at South Doyle High School, but she didn't understand what a grand jury did. He BS is in international business. She'd been called back from a West Africa Peace Corps posting because of Ebola. She said that high school civics was seen as a blow off course were you memorized things. Memorization classes usually means you forget it after the test.
What needs to happen is that the course needs to be taught differently. I don't think a state-mandated test will do that. It will just mean more memorization.
*
(in reply to Pam Strickland)
Just caught your post, Pam. Good points, all, but my expectation is that if and when a state-mandated test should go into effect, one of two things would necessarily happen in order to secure students' ability to pass the new required test: Either the "coach in the off season" would improve his instruction or the class would be taught by someone other than the "coach in the off season?"
Either outcome, though, would bring about the improvements you suggest are needed.
I took civics in 1979 and the
(in reply to Pam Strickland)
I took civics in 1979 and the teacher was the boys' basketball coach. (The notion that civics education is less valued today than in past times is a myth.) Actually, Coach didn't do a bad job. He actually set up an abortion debate, assigned sides and forced us to advocate against our own principles based on Constitutional concepts. Imagine getting away with that today, speaking of changing values....
It just occurred to me that may have been my first experience in advocacy.
Hope Ken Yager was better at
Hope Ken Yager was better at teaching than he is as a legislator.
He was. If you read my post,
(in reply to Bbeanster)
He was. If you read my post, I hope you got that. My guess is that he should have stayed in education. Or practiced law. He may have even been a decent county executive, I don't know. I do agree that from were I sit, he's not been a very good state lawmaker.
My point about naming him was that he truly was interested in the subject matter. For some reason, a lot of coaches are certified in social studies and many of them don't really care for the subject matter. I managed to avoid that in the Harriman City Schools back in the day. All of my social studies teachers were truly interested in the subject and truly taught us about it. Every now and then, there are those who care like Hildegard's basketball coach/civics teacher cross. And, no, I cannot imagine such a debate in today's world. The parents on both sides would explode, not to mention the school board.
Is legislative meddling in specific content areas desireable?
From my POV the answer is a clear and resounding no. I agree with others above that statutorily requiring specific course content is serious overreach by the state lege. Given the logical fallacy of the camel's slippery nose, it nonetheless sets very dangerous precedent.
If indeed there is a problem with civics content then the normal route would be for the state BOE to deal with it via their curriculum writing process which is currently underway, by the way, for science standards. If this isn't micromanagement meddling of professional educators then what is? The burden of proof should sit squarely on the shoulders of the legislators proposing this. The content bar should be set high by professional educators not by legislators.
The state civics curriculum is here. Take a look.
*
(in reply to Mike Knapp)
Mike, if you read the bill as pre-filed, it doesn't speak at all as to course content, but to the form the test of that course content will take.
Maybe your point is the same--and there's reason in what you say--but the thrust here is the test, not the course content.
I confess, though, that I was distracted from your point about the "slippery slope" of legislative meddling by the sheer volume of points enumerated in that seven page pdf you linked on the course content. There's no way that volume of content is presently being covered in the nine-week (half of one semester) period now being allocated for Government in Knox County Schools. I'm amazed state or local officials think that it can be covered in such a scant length of time. That was an eye-opener...
*
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
Thanks Tamara. Yes I read the pre-filed bill and recognize that their thrust is an exam not content. However as you mentioned the point here is roughly the same. The overarching issue is that they've decided to require by statute the form an exam in a course will take. If something is on an exam it will need to be covered in class, hence content. Been there, done that. This is overreach in my book.
Re: the civics course yes there is a decent amount there, by volume 64 learning goals to be exact. I haven't studied it in depth but my first read of it suggested that it is decent enough for a standard course for american students learning about how their government works. Frankly it looks like a joy to teach. There's a lot there for high school students to get passionate about versus, uhm, photosynthesis or german irregular verb conjugation...
Is it the role of the state legislature to pronounce the content of courses and/or the exams students will take in those courses?
*
(in reply to Mike Knapp)
I had to stumble around at LexisNexis for a few minutes to jog my memory on this subject, but it seems that *only* civics instruction has long had it own niche in Tennessee state law (since 1951), as follows:
Right or wrong, then, there is precedent in TN for the legislature to dictate *only* civics instruction.
Not happening in a vacuum
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
However the history/government course/exam content is not specified in the statute like the law proposed by McCormick.
Here's the exam which should be easy to pass considering all the answers are online. Rather rigorous, wouldn'tya say...
Context... I'm smelling, some Tennessee flavored Texas brisket with some Colorado dipping sauce.
*
(in reply to Mike Knapp)
Hmm.
You know darn well I don't have any patience for this trend toward teaching "American Exceptionalism," but I'm still not sure I see that trend--the Texas and Colorado trend--in the bill pre-filed.
If this Immigration and Naturalization exam isn't particularly rigorous, can't a teacher simply teach to that test and augment that scant material with additional, more rigorous material? Seeing as how we've discovered (I've discovered, anyway) that precedent already exists for the legislature to dictate some level of curriculum in these areas of American History/Government/Econ?
I appreciate what you're saying could happen next, I just don't necessarily see that this bill would invite its happening?
God forbid.
(in reply to Mike Knapp)
God forbid our children understood how civil disorder and social strife shaped our country, like:
- ending the destructive and pointless war in Vietnam
- ended segregation in the South and brought us civil rights protection
- gave us the 40-hour work week and ended child labor
- help soldiers get the benefits they were promised after wars
- etc etc
*
(in reply to reform4)
Don't forget Margaret Sanger's fight for legal birth control. She was thrown in jail again and again. And when she went on hunger strikes there, her keepers force-fed her raw eggs through her nose.
Sorry. It's an interesting tidbit that stuck with me...
Impeachment
(in reply to reform4)
I think you may have a stronger argument that Nixon's impeachment (and likely conviction) for the illegal bombing of Cambodia had a stronger influence on ending the Vietnam war than did civil disobedience. Though your point is well taken and certainly not without merit. Strange tales from a strange time.
*
(in reply to fischbobber)
Meanwhile, Abbie Hoffman said in the preface to one of his books that his favorite Hate Letter ever read thusly:
Nixon was not impeached.
(in reply to fischbobber)
Nixon was not impeached.
Not only that, but I don't
(in reply to R. Neal)
Not only that, but I don't think the Articles of Impeachment being debated (the House Judiciary Committee DID vote to impeach, but he resigned before it got to the House floor) said anything about the bombing of Cambodia.
The straw that broke Nixon's back was the discovery (when the tapes were released) that he had ordered the CIA to tell the FBI to back off the Watergate investigation because it involved national security. That was a flagrant abuse of power.
Randy gets an A for brevity, but I'm afraid you and I.........
(in reply to Rachel)
Are relegated to the average student section.
(link...)
This is a pretty good overview of the entire situation.
(link...)
Here's a PDF of the five articles of impeachment put before the House Judiciary Committee. At some point in the last forty years I believe I read a piece that suggested that Article Five was the strongest charge and the one Nixon could be most strongly convicted of. I'm not sure though. I'm not sure why that article struck such a strong chord.
(link...)
Here is an overview similar to one's I'd read justifying Article Five. I have a long history of reading subversive literature. I think it's also fair to point out that Nixon resigned less than a week after the final of the three Articles of Impeachment that made it to the House floor was presented. His impeachment and conviction was likely.
Finally, I'd like to thank both of you Rachel and Randy, for taking me down memory lane. This was a time in my life when I had to figure out what kind of person I wanted to be and I remember thinking," Hey! This is wrong!" Most of my generation went with Cheney and decided the mistake was getting caught. I always figured it was doing wrong to begin with. It's probably not a bad idea to teach civics, but most kids won't care one way or another.
(link...)
I stumbled across this while researching. I thought it was cool.
(link...)
I thought this was relevant as well.
Finally, what strikes me most about the Nixon administration and his impeachment, is that the issues go to the heart of what we are. There's no "Neener Neener, we caught you getting a blowjob and now we're going to play word games till our side wins." This was serious shit. It's too bad our politicians today don't take their job this seriously.
what strikes me most about
(in reply to fischbobber)
what strikes me most about the Nixon administration and his impeachment
Again, Nixon was not impeached.
Only two presidents have been impeached, neither was convicted.
Nixon should have been, and probably would have been, and probably would have been convicted. But he wasn't.
Seems appropriate to keep it at least somewhat real in relation to this topic. For the childrens and whatnot.
(For the children's... a Congressional committee cannot impeach a president. Read your Constitution and whatnot.)
My bad......
(in reply to R. Neal)
"his impeachment" should have had the word "proceedings" directly following it.
In my defense, the last mistake was actually clarified earlier in the post where the actual chain of events and proceedings were documented, and the word impeachment is technically applied to the process rather than the end result. In other words Nixon's impeachment did not result in him being impeached or convicted. It's technical and picky, I know, but still, I did a lot of work on my damn phone today to get this right, and referenced a pretty good string of sources, both rather general and specific to the topic at hand. I'd hate for that to get thrown aside because of a grammar error that wasn't really a grammar error.
OK, sorry.
(in reply to fischbobber)
OK, sorry.
*
(in reply to fischbobber)
Wiki clarifies thusly:
You said "the word impeachment is technically applied to the process rather than the end result."
But on the contrary, the word "impeachment" is technically applied to a vote taken on the House floor to "indict."
Since no such vote was taken on the House floor WRT Nixon, it isn't correct to say that Nixon was impeached.
(I've no dog in this race; just trying to clarify the particulars for any confused folk passing by...)
Uh, no.
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
(link...)
See number 4.
(link...)
note usage paragraph.
(link...)
See number 2
The point is this Tamara. I was not questioning Randy's use of the term as it applied to the legal details of Nixon's removal from office, but my use of the word in the general sense appears to have confused you. Ultimately, Nixon's removal from office was by resignation of his own accord, but he was involved in an impeachment when it happened. In this case the general usage of the word was used in a sentence where clearly some people mistook it for the technical and final process of impeachment. I thought I had sourced things out fairly well, and I'm sure you read the references along the way, and I felt like the meaning was fairly clear. And I didn't say Nixon was impeached, I referenced Nixon's impeachment, that's two different things.
"You end up like a dog that's been beat too much, till you spend half your life just covering up now..." - The Boss
It really wasn't an
(in reply to fischbobber)
It really wasn't an impeachment. They were beginning the process. Far from actual impeachment.
3rd link
(in reply to Pam Strickland)
impeachment- the act of impeaching
The word is also defined as the process of being impeached. You guys are taking a sentence out of context and misapplying a grammar rule. Please read the whole discussion. You and Pam are both wrong. The word was used correctly.
*
I cannot imagine such a debate in today's world. The parents on both sides would explode, not to mention the school board.
You may be surprised to learn that my son had an assignment or two of that sort, where he had to speak in defense of a contentious position he didn't personally hold, in his high school speech class just a couple of years ago. He had to speak in opposition to legal abortion, while he (and I) actually supports legalized abortion. Of course, I'm a (minority?) parent who heartily approved of the exercise because it taught him how to "construct" an argument from available material.
I recall that my daughter was given a list of contentious subjects from which to chose a topic for an expository piece in an honors English class one year, too, although that assignment was to describe the phenomenon, not to defend it. She chose "Holocaust deniers." We got such a chilly reception from the help desk at Lawson-McGhee Library, I felt it necessary to more fully explain the assignment to the librarian! I approved of that exercise, too, in part because it taught my daughter to better discern what constitutes a "credible source."
I can't guess how other parents may have responded to either assignment...
I'm impressed. But it is Knox
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
I'm impressed. But it is Knox County not Grainger or Hamblen or Polk.
Maybe I'm being unfair. But I really would love to find out.
Best exercise.
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
I remember in school being given an assignment to argue the pro-free speech case for a KKK rally. It was absolutely a formative exercise in critical thinking and the ability to construct an argument for a point you don't agree with personally. No child should be allowed to graduate without having to do at least one assignment like this.
*
No, that above statute requires the teaching of American History, not this Gov/Econ course under discussion.
However, like the American History class in high school, it appears that both the "Gov" and the "Econ" portions of the class under discussion were each required by the legislature, too.
The "Gov" portion of the class was required by the legislature in 1947, here:
The "Econ" portion of the class was required by the legislature in 1974, here:
So it looks like precedent exists for the legislature to dictate curriculum--or really, just that a curriculum be taught--in American History and Government and Econ, all, although I don't note in the Code legislators' specific dictates in any other subject area.
This explains why I don't
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
This explains why I don't remember econ. I graduated in 1975. So I had a full semester of government and civics in ninth grade. Throwing in econ would leave only nine weeks and means not enough time to do more than skip pebbles across the across the surface of the pond. They need to dig deep, feel the mud at the bottom of that water.
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(in reply to Pam Strickland)
I also graduated in 1975 and I don't recall taking government or econ, either one! I very much agree that nine weeks is too little time to cover that seven-page government curriculum Mike linked for us.
(And I didn't reply earlier, but I also share your curiosity as to whether parents in Grainger or Hamblen or Polk counties would respond as I did to those two "critical thinking" assignments I described that my kids completed here in Knox County schools! Very possibly not.)
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Well, here's yet another statute, from 2010, outlining what "shall be taught" in the way of civics (and also when, not how, students "shall" be tested):
Now, that's some pretty specific instruction in "course content!"
Honest to Pete, I'm not finding this volume (or specificity) of instruction on any topics *except* American History and Government and Econ...
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(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
Thanks Tamara. I'll put a bookmark in it. Scary to think about the possibilities for this approach in all courses, especially science...
FWIW, I graduated from a
FWIW, I graduated from a Tennessee High School in 1970 and we were required to take American history (I had an excellent teacher and really enjoyed it).
I didn't take any other history/govt classes because they were all taught by coaches and I knew I would have been wasting my time.
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(in reply to Rachel)
My American History teacher was a former FBI fingerprint clerk, she told us, in probably her late sixties who sat on a stool at the front of the room and read to us (poorly) directly from the textbook for the full hour while most of her class slept.
Absolute worst teacher I ever had, at any level of my public education.
Respect
Does anyone else see the disconnect here?
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(in reply to Up Goose Creek)
Where did you lift this excerpt?
If it's an educational goal of the Texas GOP (per Mike's link earlier), they said they're skeptical of this "critical thinking" crap :-)
Excerpt
Mike's post upthread at 9:15. I think he was talking about a Jefferson county. Texas?
That link you're referencing was from Jefferson county Colorado
(in reply to Up Goose Creek)
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Speaking of pre-filed education statutes...
See this from Greenville, South Carolina.
What's the over/under on this happening in the volunteer state?
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(in reply to Mike Knapp)
Yipes.
I've been thinking about your (and Randy's) several good points on this thread, Mike, and it occurs to me that, statutory precedents or no, the more appropriate action from the legislature in this civics test question is probably for legislators to just adopt a resolution requesting that the State Board of Ed ensure, in the manner of their choosing, that all TN high school graduates demonstrate the same level of understanding about American government as do our naturalized citizens--and leave it at that.
That's a more reasoned approach
(in reply to Tamara Shepherd)
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Do we need to teach civics?
Yes, of course we do. Do we need to create one more 60 question, multiple choice hurdle for seniors to jump through? NO. There is a pretty good discussion of this started by Karen Carson on the Educators for Excellence Facebook page. Two teachers said yes with poor arguments and they were pretty much swatted down by every other teacher who jumped on…including Donna Wright joining in the conversation with an excellent alternative idea.