Our current lack-of-system is broken, but I seriously doubt many corporations (except Knox County) will go back to DB plan designs. It's the volatility, man.

It's not the volatility. It's a lack of fundamental respect from an employer to an employee.

When an employer cuts back on pension obligations when the market is good instead of diversifying and strengthening the pension, that is a pay cut. If a pension plan is part of a benefits package and those pension obligations are unfulfilled, then it is stealing.

We've about reached the point in the "You're lucky to have a job" line of reasoning where we're going to start hearing reasons why employees should pay employers for the privilege of working.

There's a difference between not funding your DB plan, and not having one.

Even companies with fully funded DB plans are freezing them to new entrants, and new start-ups aren't offering DB.

The problem right now with all pension plans, defined benefit or otherwise, is the "new normal" of zero percent interest rates and volatility in the financial markets. The problem is compounded by downward pressure on wages from foreign sweat shops and too many pension plans managed by "professionals" and 401Ks managed by amateurs with better things to do like put food on the table that have been and still are based on unrealistic expectations of returns based on past history that no longer applies. (I'd like to know where I can get in on the City of Knoxville's projected 7% return.)

Depending on where you get on the business cycle merry-go-round, unforeseen circumstances such as foreign wars, exposure to global markets and economies, booms and busts in domestic market segments, etc. etc. you could be a big winner or a big loser. That's gambling, not retirement investing. And nobody has perfect information on which to act, except Wall Street Masters of the Universe who can manipulate reality to benefit themselves and screw the rest of us.

When you get closer to retirement age (which has become a moving goal post for a lot of people), you want to be in safer investments, but those are paying zero interest and in effect losing value.

I'm not sure what the answer is. Some people are fortunate to have made enough to live off the principal. Not sure what everyone else is supposed to do. Social Security will provide cat food, but not much else. It could be that the whole idea of retirement is obsolete.

"It could be that the whole idea of retirement is obsolete."

Sadly, this.

How old is the idea of retirement anyway, at 55, 60, 62, or the SSA's "normal" retirement age, which grows with life expectancy?

I have some of those mystical I-bonds that pay inflation + 3.5%. They do really well in years that the gov. is honest about the inflation rate. I borrowed money at 6.25% to buy them so maybe I'm breaking even? :-L.

But not enough to retire on. Too bad I can't borrow money at 3% and go back in a time machine to buy some more.