Mon
Nov 12 2012
07:01 pm

Per AlterNet:

To be fair, blue-staters were saying similar things back in 2004 after Bush's re-election, but the geographical ironies were perhaps less rich then, since this year the electoral map looks suspiciously like slave states and free states lining up in opposition.

As to the WhiteHouse.gov petition-writing tool, AlterNet reports that nearly 4200 alleged "people" have signed Tennessee's petition--but we can't be sure because they were not required to submit any photo ID.

57
like
Andy Axel's picture

It's more like a map of net

It's more like a map of net tax moochers (literally, "in the red") versus net tax donors.

fletch's picture

Seems like those signing

Seems like those signing these petitions are committing treason. Thought that was decided around 1861.

S Carpenter's picture

Next thing you know it'll be

Next thing you know it'll be secession movements funded by Citizens United.

CE Petro's picture

Rubber Room

Not sure which started first the "Obama won by Fraud" or secession re-talks.

Straight from nut-country these folks are also claiming Obama won by fraud: there are 52 Dems that were arrested for voter fraud, Cuyahoga county, Ohio didn't register any votes for Romney (tip: Ohio's election commission doesn't support that contention, but we are talking conspiracy theory), nor were any votes cast for Romney in Philly (again, nothing to support the contention). Nut-country peeps are also saying that any business owner that fires people because they are afraid to see their taxes go up under Obama care are very American, and those that say otherwise are, well, should leave the country.

I mean, do we have a rubber room big enough to hold all these people?

WhitesCreek's picture

Red State succession might be harder than some think.

I'm sure this map will be refined in coming weeks but it gives a good idea where the reds are. Does the term "red menace" ring abell?

(link...)

Average Guy's picture

.

.

Average Guy's picture

The South longs for the "Old South"

When in reality, America is "Old Europe". Pains me to say it, but what's the alternative? What does regaining a status of an industrial giant look like in a global economy?

Do we put children back to work so we can compete with India? Do we want 60 hr minimum work weeks at $2 an hour so we can compete with China's Foxconn workers? Do we want to pollute our environment the way those countries do so we can reduce costs?

Part of the problem is the view many Southerners have of "Old Europe". Decaying, socialist regimes seems to be the first image of many, most of whom have never been, or know little beyond "freedom fries" talking points. The Right loves to point to European debt, but minus Greece, debt to GDP is worse here than anywhere there. Our saving grace is the dollar.

From my perspective, "Old Europe" seems to strive for better, not cheaper. Something America would be wise to embrace, not run from.

cwg's picture

Actually

If you look on the petition site, there are also petitions for states like New York, Pennsylvania, Deleware, and Alaska to secede. So it's not just the South.

(link...)

There are also two petitions supporting exiling everyone who signed a petition to secede.

Average Guy's picture

The Confederate Flag flies all over,

but it was sewn in the South. The idea of succession is long held here.

Presidents since Truman have proposed nationalized health care. I don't remember any succession talks over their proposals.

It's not just the President's skin tone, but each time these things rear their ugly heads, I can't help but to think it plays a large part.

Valerie O's picture

Whoa the Durn Bus!!

OK, I live in Tennessee, own property in Tennessee, pay taxes in Tennessee and I am NOT willing to secede. So where is the Anti-Secession Petition as opposed to the exile petition? If there isn't one, I'd be willing to start one.

Mike Cohen's picture

Tennessee

While it is correct to say that a bunch of states have petitioned for succession, let's be very clear that these are citizens/activists/crazies. It's not like the actual state or elected leaders are doing this.'

Maybe it's just people who saw Lincoln and didn't like it. Of course Lincoln wasn't playing here to I saw Seven Psychopaths, which may be just as pertinent. Or more so.

Average Guy's picture

citizens/activists/crazies

I would lump people who believe the earth is 6,000 years old in that group, and the Tennessee legislature is full of 'em.

If what we've been watching was incrementalism minus a super-majority, nobody in this State should be surprised by anything going forward.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I hear ya, Mike, and I would not really expect to find your own signature on the Tennessee petition.

The mister, whom I believe I've mentioned is also a Repub, just rolled his eyes when I told him last night about this flurry of petition-signing.

(KNS reported this morn, tho, that Texas now has nearly 60,000 sigs on theirs and Louisiana has also surpassed that 25,000 sig threshold that requires the White House to respond.)

Somebody's picture

I know it's bad form...

...to start a linguistic pissing match, but this keeps coming up in this thread, and it's driving me crazy.

secession : formal withdrawal from an organization

succession : the order in which or the conditions under which one person after another succeeds to a property, dignity, title, or throne

fischbobber's picture

Linguistic observations

+1

EricLykins's picture

#Succeed

Average Guy's picture

Duly noted.

Duly noted.

EricLykins's picture

(No subject)

You're going to have to start wearing a dashiki. You know what a dashiki is?
Some special kind of moustache?!
Sure, whatever scares you the most.

Cleuster / lonnie's picture

Most of these dumbass

Most of these dumbass successionists nuts are just frustrated WASPS that cannot stand the thought of losing control after hundreds of years of dominating American politics.They vote against their own interests and try to maintain the nostalgia of old. Those days are almost over .. so they better get used to it. Texas & Florida will soon be controlled by Dems......which will make the top 4 most populous states Democratic. Arizona and Georgia are not far behind. I see the current Republican party becoming irrelevant. The Republican "Immoral Minority" will soon lose its influence and become too weak to block progressive legislation at the national level. Of course, Tennessee Republicans and Republicans in other red states are still going to do as much as they can to damage public education and take away our constitutional voting rights before they eventually lose their power.

Cleuster / lonnie's picture

There are probably many of

There are probably many of the secessionists petitioners from Knox County. There were approximately 30,000 Knoxville city voters that voted for the President and 27,000 for Romney. Romney received about 63% of Knox County vote & Obama 34%. I don't have a calculator handy, but that puts the voters that live outside city and voted for Romney at probably over 70%. Not to mention the voters in Knox county that put Republicans back in the state legislature. Teachers & others that voted for the state Republicans deserve what they get.The ignorant Republicans screwed all of us.

mld

R. Neal's picture

Haslam takes a bold stand

EricLykins's picture

"(without a task force

"(without a task force study)"

That's funny.

Brandon Puttbrese sums up what's not funny:
Extremism Breeds Extremism & A Weak Governor

So Haslam feels his input is important on meaningless Internet petitions, but unnecessary on serious questions of ethics and integrity. When confronted with the question of whether it's ever appropriate for a doctor to have sex with his patients, how did the governor respond?
"I don’t know that there’s a whole lot that I can add."
Weak.

bizgrrl's picture

Texas Governor Rick Perry

lonnie's picture

The thousands of secession

The thousands of secession petitioners are mostly pathetic racist white folk that cannot stand a black American being our President. Just like in the days of slavery, they want to consider at least some group of people lower than them.Instead of working for a common good, all their mean spirits know is hatred.They are the lowest of the low and are the scum of our nation.
As far as our governor is concerned, the noblest thing Haslam and the extreme Tennessee Republicans could do for our state is to resign and save our public education system and save Tennesseans from the torture of their policies. They need to secede from Tennessee government.

mld

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

That Bill Haslam's a pretty smart cookie.

On April 26, 2012, the House approved a $31.4 billion FY2013 state budget by a vote of 66-30. The House budget follows the governor's proposed budget closely, but leaves out several pet projects that appear in the Republican-authored Senate version. House legislators authorized the state to issue up to $381.9 million in bonds.

The next day, April 27, 2012, the Senate approved its $31.1 billion version of the FY2013. The Senate budget cuts millions of dollars in funding for programs and projects in what is seen as a retaliatory move against the House for cutting some Senate projects.

Federal funding will account for $12.3 billion, or about 39.6 percent of the state’s budget.

metulj's picture

My point, vindicated. ~40

My point, vindicated. ~40 percent of the budget.

R. Neal's picture

And in 2010, federal Medicaid

And in 2010, federal Medicaid (TennCare) funding was $6.4 billion, which was 76% of the program spending, and about 22% of the entire state budget.

metulj's picture

Will he push Medicaid back

Will he push Medicaid back onto the Feds? Can he? I'd love to see an Ad in the Rubio/Haslam 2016 campaign that says "Haslam shrunk the TN State Budget by 22 percent and rejected Obamacare."

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

And Rick Perry's IQ is also slightly higher than his shoe size.

Texas gets 37.3% of its state budget from the feds.

metulj's picture

NJ gets 10.7 percent. MA gets

NJ gets 10.7 percent. MA gets 11.1% which is roughly equivalent to its budget outlay for education. NY gets in on the high end with 27% which is though roughly the same amount of money devoted to education.

bizgrrl's picture

Still less than Tennessee.

Still less than Tennessee.

redmondkr's picture

According to The New Civil

According to The New Civil Rights Movement, the only states that are not interested in seceding are those with gay marriage, but I've also read that there is at least a smattering of these nutters in all fifty.

One of my fellow Rottie rescue volunteers (in Texas, of course) was sporting a makeshift bumper sticker combo on her Escalade before the election that consisted of one that read 'Women for Romney/Ryan' followed by a hand painted 'or' and another sticker that simply said 'Secession'. I told her I thought it would be good riddance.

redmondkr's picture

Linguistic Pissing Match you

Linguistic Pissing Match you say?

H/T to Juanita Jean.

Min's picture

You know...

...we use to call that kind of talk treason. Personally, I think we still should.

michael kaplan's picture

From a progressive point of

From a progressive point of view, secession makes some sense. I can't imagine Tennessee waging war on Iran, paying foreign aid to Israel, or continuing the embargo of our neighbor Cuba. We have a developed automobile industry, plentiful coal, wood and sun for energy, fertile farmland for food production, the know-how to make clothing, and access to the sea via the Mississippi -- ingredients for what might be a sustainable economy. If Lithuania can do it, why not Tennessee?

metulj's picture

Lithuania could do it because

Lithuania could do it because it received enormous foreign aid with an aim to give up sovereignty to the EU. You are way off base.

michael kaplan's picture

i'm assuming tennessee would

i'm assuming tennessee would receive foreign aid from texas, also seceding.

Somebody's picture

Tennessee borders seven other

Tennessee borders eight other states and/or commonwealths*. We would be overrun by the invading hordes in no time.

*See corrections below. I had seven states in my head. This was corrected to seven states and one commonwealth, but Virginia and Kentucky are both commonwealths, so that would six states and two commonwealths. Either way this just means one state or commonwealth-worth more of invading hordes than originally considered. Hordes everywhere, coming from all directions.

JCB's picture

wait till you see the real protest.

As far as political protests go this petition business will garner some attention. But not nearly the attention of a nation of people working 30 hour work weeks. That is the protest that will cripple this country. Unintended Consequences=Obamacare.

How would you like to work two or even three jobs then get fined by the IRS for not having medical insurance? Those are the future Republicans or Independent voters. Many of them will be Hispanic.

Enjoy your "success". It will be brief.

metulj's picture

Petulant billionaires who

Petulant billionaires who have to "sacrifice" their declasse lifestyles for healthcare for the people who make them rich. Boo. Hoo.

Somebody's picture

Most of the businesses making

Most of the businesses making noise right now about 30-hour workweeks and Obamacare surcharges and the like are doing just that. Making noise. Foxnews fueled political statements. It will not last once the healthcare law is fully implemented.

Interestingly, the private market will correct much of this nonsense, forcing employers to quit trying to externalize the costs of keeping a healthy workforce. The labor market will become much more fluid than it is now, because people will realize that they don't need to hang onto jobs they don't like for fear of losing their health insurance benefits. People will switch jobs more freely. Others will strike out on their own, because individuals will be able to buy affordable coverage. The result of the more fluid labor market will be that employers who try to keep their employees all working part-time to avoid paying for health insurance coverage won't be able to keep a sufficient workforce. Workers will have better options.

Of course, employers who can't keep enough employees to cover all the part-time shifts will find they have no other choice but to switch back to full-time positions and insure their employees. All this will happen, courtesy of the free market. Don't you love it?

Rachel's picture

Most of the businesses making

Most of the businesses making noise right now about 30-hour workweeks and Obamacare surcharges and the like are doing just that. Making noise.

It's exactly the same noise you hear everytime the minimum wasge is raised.

Beale Street's picture

Have you ever owned a

Have you ever owned a business? Have you ever owned a business with more than 50 full time employees?

Take the way LLC's work and combine it with Obamacare and you will see that 50 employees plus businesses have difficult choices to make.

You are wrong on almost every single thing you said.

Somebody's picture

You say that I am wrong on

You say that I am wrong on almost every single thing I said. Please enlighten me.

metulj's picture

I love that bullshit "have

I love that bullshit "have you ever" line. You know, I've never participated in a genocide, but I know it's wrong.

JCB's picture

"Interestingly, the private

"Interestingly, the private market will correct much of this nonsense, forcing employers to quit trying to externalize the costs of keeping a healthy workforce."

I don't think you get how this will play out. If a company has 60 employees, and they see a big benefit financially in reducing that to 48 employees, you think they won't do it?

It is more realistic to see changes in Obamacare. You can't force this at any level. Whatever the level is becomes the cut point. While there are some good parts of Obamacare, the 50 employee and 31 hour week are just stupid and will hurt both employees and employers. The set points are too low.

The mistake was forcing business to provide insurance. But that mistake was made long ago. I love reading your illusions of private markets. Beale Street had your number right off.

metulj's picture

Communist.

Communist.

fischbobber's picture

Boycotting Denny's and Godfather's

I'll miss neither one.

And Papa John's too.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Bet they're white and middle-aged, too.

KNS links this pretty funny data analysis of the "Secessionist Movement's" petition signers (current as of this morning).

Per the analyst, a professor of sociology at UNC-Chapel Hill:

In total, we collected data on 798,453 signatures. Of these, we identified 281,780 unique combinations of names and places, suggesting that a large number of people were signing more than one petition.

Whatta buncha wienies! Wonder how many times they voted???

But there's more:

We also looked at the distribution of petition signers by gender. While petition signers did not list their gender, we attempted to match first names with Social Security data on the relative frequency of names by sex. Of the 242,823 respondents with gendered names, 62% had male names and 38% had female names. This 24 point gender gap is twice the size of the gender gap for voters in the 2012 Presidential election.

Can you say "lame?!"

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Tennessee borders seven other states. We would be overrun by the invading hordes in no time.

Eight states, actually.

Rachel's picture

Beat me to it. (NC, Va, KY,

Beat me to it.

(NC, Va, KY, Mo, Ark, MS, Ala, Ga)

Along with Missouri, we have the honor of being bordered by more states than any other state. Now THERE'S a fascinating fact to know and tell. :)

Andy Axel's picture

Seven states and one

Seven states and one commonwealth.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Seven states and one commonwealth.

Smarty pants :-)

Actually, the fact that TN borders more states (and a commonwealth) than any other state in the U.S. is an important piece of trivia: It contributes greatly to our problem with "sales tax leakage," i.e., shopping across TN's borders to avoid the nation's highest average combined state and local sales tax rate.

Somebody's picture

I stand corrected. Please

I stand corrected. Please see correction noted above.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

It's just that we so seldom get the chance with you, S.

Didn't mean to beat you about the head and shoulders, tho!

(Edit: Rachel and Andy, I just glanced at Somebody's "correction" and it looks like he's still too fast for us to catch :-)

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

As far as political protests go this petition business will garner some attention. But not nearly the attention of a nation of people working 30 hour work weeks. That is the protest that will cripple this country. Unintended Consequences=Obamacare.

How would you like to work two or even three jobs then get fined by the IRS for not having medical insurance? Those are the future Republicans or Independent voters. Many of them will be Hispanic.

If you're fretting for Papa John, JCB, you need to explain why it is that he can't raise his prices three or four cents per pie (per the correction performed by Forbes magazine of Papa's erroneous math citing a price increase triple that amount) OR why cutting his payroll costs are his only option to avoid raising his prices.

Why can't he cut his facilities costs or his equipment costs?

Since he produces a product and not a service, why can't he cut his costs of good sold, in this case his ingredients used in pizza making?

Cash registers and electronics? Uniforms? Pizza boxes and paper products?

What about his tax and accounting costs or his advertising and promotion costs?

He can boost the price he charges for a franchise or reduce executive salaries (or just reduce executives), too.

If all else fails, he can also cut the dividend paid to investors.

So why is your first thought that Papa John or poor Mr. Metz or any restaurant chain owner should balance his budget on the backs of his minimum wage employees (or in the case of his tipped employees, people making as little as $2.13 per hour)???

This Papa John asshole has a freakin' 22 car garage and gave away 2 million pizzas during the NFL season.

So it's like Randy quoted recently on another thread: If you don't know who the mark is, you're the mark.

And you are the mark. Get a flippin' clue.

metulj's picture

I love it when a stupid pizza

I love it when a stupid pizza guy with bad taste in homes gives a Marxist analysis of his business.

JCB's picture

"Why can't he cut his

"Why can't he cut his facilities costs or his equipment costs?

Since he produces a product and not a service, why can't he cut his costs of good sold, in this case his ingredients used in pizza making?

Cash registers and electronics? Uniforms? Pizza boxes and paper products?

What about his tax and accounting costs or his advertising and promotion costs?

He can boost the price he charges for a franchise or reduce executive salaries (or just reduce executives), too.

If all else fails, he can also cut the dividend paid to investors."

Both Papa John's and Godfather's Pizza are wholesalers. You do understand that right? You are talking about the franchisees.

I was thinking and caring more about the people who cut your hair, fix your furnace, repair your washing machines. Small manufactures who will be decimated worse than when NAFTA came down. I hate to break into your class warfare rant but you don't get this.

I don't have the time or the desire to educate you people. You believe this farce. Okay. The people you champion will be the ones hurt the most. Little people who own businesses that are LLC's will get creamed to. I've never seen people with a greater lack of knowledge about business. Do any of you own a business? Used to be workman's comp was the threshold to clear. Get the Fed's involved and watch small businesses go out business so fast you will wonder who the mark really was.

R. Neal's picture

Do any of you own a

Do any of you own a business?

Yes.

reform4's picture

Yes as well.

..

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

JCB, Papa John's operates corporate stores and sells franchise stores, both.

The franchise stores are "turn-key" operations, to ensure product consistency among stores nationally.

For that same reason, all stores--corporate and franchise--receive their food and non-food supplies from Papa John's own commissary.

For what it's worth, I worked in restaurants for seven years in my teens and twenties (including in a couple of management positions), I have owned two small businesses (although I was their sole employee), and my bachelor's degree is in business administration. My late father enjoyed a thirty year career in wholesale food and restaurant equipment sales with first the national John Sexton Company (we moved a lot), then a regional distributor here in ET.

Also, an LLC employing 50 or more people is not particularly "small." At the least, it should be large enough to employ staff qualified to advise owners as to how the business might adjust its operations to absorb or pass on higher costs such as the three or four cents per pizza that Forbes magazine says the PPACA imposes on Papa John's.

I understand and agree with you that some businesses might now be planning to absorb their higher costs in the manner Papa John's says it will undertake, namely to balance their budgets on the backs of their minumum wage employees.

What I don't understand is why you seem to be defending that course of action, when so many other options exist for these businesses.

If my pointing this out amounts to "class warfare" on my part, all I can tell you is that the shoe fits.

I do wonder: Do you have children?

fischbobber's picture

Are you saying?

Are you saying that all business owners are socially irresponsible?

Somebody's picture

You do seem to have time to

You do seem to have time to tell us we're wrong.

If that's all you can do, and you can't produce any reasoning as to why, then you have no argument. If you're interested enough to pipe up, you should be interested enough to make your case. I don't believe you don't have time or inclination to make your case. I'm pretty sure you don't have a coherent case formulated in your own mind that would back your position. The "time or desire" thing is just a cop out.

metulj's picture

But. But. But. ITS THE TRVTH!

But. But. But. ITS THE TRVTH!

JCB's picture

"The "time or desire" thing

"The "time or desire" thing is just a cop out."

I meant there isn't enough time. Most of you have college degrees. Yet somehow, you don't understand basic economics or business.

This is as simple an explanation as I have seen:

(link...)

"Companies with fewer than 50 employees do not have to provide insurance, but the new law will make it easier and cheaper if they do.

Businesses with 50 or more employees must provide health insurance or pay a penalty. If the business fails to comply, the penalty is $2,000 for each full-time employee (with a 30-employee deduction.) Additionally, if the coverage offered is too expensive (defined as costing more than 9.5 percent of the employees household income), the penalty is $3,000 per employee who must buy insurance with a government subsidy. However, only 200,000 small businesses will be affected by these changes because over 96 percent of small businesses fall below the 50-employee threshold.

Companies with up to 100 employees can benefit from the option of buying lower cost health insurance through employer-only exchanges, also set up by each state. This might also reduce costs for smaller firms if they add their employees to a much larger pool of insurance customers.

Overall, the ACA brings a mixture of rules and benefits, but there is nothing to suggest that the healthcare shake up will hinder job creation and economic growth. In fact, it could inject order into the unruly medical marketplace if the administration explains benefits and requirements simply and clearly."

Companies will cut jobs and hours to be under the threshold. Hurting the very people you say you want to help. Knowing this crowd you will cling to the last paragraph, which is opinion, and ignore the flaw in the second paragraph. That is why you cannot be helped to understanding. Your mind was made up before you started. Not a one of you have read this bill. Practically no one has. Nancy Pelosi said "we have to pass to know what is in it". You are the marks. Rubes in fact.

The only people that make out on this are tax accountants. I might as well have explained this to my puppy. At least she would nod her head like she understood.

metulj's picture

Yawn. They will cut jobs and

Yawn. They will cut jobs and hours until their shareholders say "Hey Asshole, where's my money?"

Again, I love your Marxist analysis.

R. Neal's picture

Not a one of you have read

Not a one of you have read this bill.

I have.

metulj's picture

I have as well. While overly

I have as well. While overly long, it addresses each and every concern this troll has.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

P.S.--We're educating Hispanic voters as to "how to identify the mark" now. It's easy enough, since they're already in the fold.

Clue. Get one.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Heads up, marks!

Obamacare Will Cost Papa John's Pizza Far Less Than Free Pizza Giveaways

Remember, your sons and daughters run a 50-50 chance of graduating from a state university owing $25K in student loans and working for $2.13 an hour for assholes like this one.

Consider carefully where your loyalities should lie.

Min's picture

Selfish, greedy bastards.

There's a reason Jesus Christ had so much to say about the accumulation of wealth, and none of it good.

redmondkr's picture

I don't have the time or the

I don't have the time or the desire to educate you people

Bwa Ha Ha Ha Has Ha!

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I thought it was funny, Michael.

michael kaplan's picture

States are Forever

Like diamonds.

One of the issues in the Supreme Court case of Texas v. White was whether or not Texas had the right to unilaterally leave the union. Writing for the court, Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase wrote,

“When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final.”

The court went on to say that the union between Texas and the other states was as dissoluble as the union of the original States.

But the court left open the possibility of secession by revolution “or through consent of the States.” Leaving aside the fact that a successful revolution would see Texas leave the United States, the court does leave it open for secession provided it was done with the consent of all the states and presumably the consent of the federal government. But the chances of that happening are extremely unlikely.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I believe he's saying that all business owners are Republicans, so we Democrats can't possibly understand their woes.

(Rolling eyes.)

Factchecker's picture

To borrow from metulj

Ding ding ding ding.

Factchecker's picture

Second ring

Also saying business owners are The Job Creators.

redmondkr's picture

In my line of work years ago

In my line of work years ago we used to tell people, just before feeding them a line of horse manure, that the basis for our reasoning was sound but classified.

"You people just have to trust me."

And, if an old Navy man looks at you and says, "Now, this ain't no sh*t.", expect a load of cobblers.

Beale Street's picture

"However, only 200,000 small

"However, only 200,000 small businesses will be affected by these changes because over 96 percent of small businesses fall below the 50-employee threshold."

Headline: Obama puts 200,000 small businesses out of business

Someone has to take the hit for the rest of us so you can get free healthcare? You put that many businesses under we all go under. What would it be like if 500 small businesses went under in Knoxville? I doubt that many businesses went under in Knoxville during the Depression. The ripple effect would cripple this town.

That Forbes article is Pro Obamacare. This four percent stuff sounds good unless you are one of that four percent or you do business with them. That is the middle class. Not the one percenters.

R. Neal's picture

Someone has to take the hit

Someone has to take the hit for the rest of us so you can get free healthcare?

I will not get free healthcare under PPACA. In fact, most people won't. Only a small population in states that adopt expanded Medicaid will get "free" healthcare who didn't have any before.

Rachel's picture

I will not get free

I will not get free healthcare under PPACA.

Me neither.

And the "you like Obama because he gives you free stuff" crap is getting really old.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

JCB, you do know that the restaurant and hospitality industries have always tried to keep the majority of their employees part-time in order to avoid paying any benefit costs for them?

During that seven year period I worked in the industry, I and most every self-supporting adult I worked with was employed as an hourly employee and was routinely scheduled for 37 hours per week. No health insurance, no paid vacation, no nothing.

In one restaurant where I worked for three years, I actually quit my job once a year--by agreement with my supervisor--so that I could take a week-long (unpaid) vacation. Some of my co-workers with a few years on the job did the same thing.

So I absolutely agree with you that some employers in these industries will try to continue doing what they've always done, namely skimp on the very people who have made them wealthy.

I absolutely disagree with you, though, that finangling with the PPACA to make it applicable only to employees working some number of hours weekly greater than 30 will somehow alleviate the poor treatment of employees in these industries.

That approach didn't work over the last several decades, when that threshold was set at 40 hours, and it won't work going forward.

All that will work--short of a single-payer system of the sort I doubt you'd approve--is simply to call out employers in these industries for the behaviors they've long exhibited.

So we are.

Join us anytime...

JCB's picture

"I absolutely disagree with

"I absolutely disagree with you, though, that finangling with the PPACA to make it applicable only to employees working some number of hours weekly greater than 30 will somehow alleviate the poor treatment of employees in these industries."

Obamacare has to be changed. Or the people that will suffer are the employees. And employers. It won't work. No plan that puts that much burden on that many businesses can work. 200,000 businesses? Really?

If Obamacare isn't changed, small business will do what it has to do to survive. You would do the same.

bizgrrl's picture

Eventually health insurance

Eventually health insurance should be removed from employment completely, e.g. universal health insurance. Then it will not be a problem for any business. Of course, individuals will have to make more money to pay for their health insurance. One way or another we need health insurance for everyone and someone is going to pay.

Rachel's picture

Eventually health insurance

Eventually health insurance should be removed from employment completely

Ding. Ding. Ding.

lonnie's picture

Universal healthcare needs to

Universal healthcare needs to become reality right now, not eventually. Harry Truman proposed it over 60 years ago and the "Do Nothing Congress" rejected his proposal. Since then millions of people have suffered and died because of inadequate healthcare.It is inexcusable for a country with the wealth of the United States to treat it citizens like animals. The American government has subsidized planes and trains and oil and all kinds of huge corporations and tobacco and foreign countries and you name it we have supported it. Our taxes go to support thousands of causes where everyone does not benefit.Why can't we subsidize ordinary people? I was happy when the Affordable Healthcare Act passed Congress, but it was not actually President Obama's plan, it was the Republican plan. President Obama's single payer plan should be the only plan acceptable. Everybody in American deserves quality healthcare.I do not care what the argument against universal healthcare is, whatever the argument, it is morally wrong. It is bullshit. The Republicans are killing people.They are killing children and old people and middle age people by rejecting universal healthcare. Many people that are fortunate and have a good health insurance plan just don't get it. It is not enough to send the uninsured to the ER to be stabilized and send them home to die. Opponents of universal healthcare are mean spirited, selfish, and immoral.People that are dying cannot wait to eventually be covered by health insurance.

michael l.d.

Somebody's picture

Even Obama has said the law

Even Obama has said the law is not perfect, and that he will work with Congress to make ongoing modifications. That will undoubtedly entail fixes that might be necessary to help small businesses participate, and also fixes that will put the hammer down on those operators who are simply seeking to shift the costs of doing business on others.

You and JCB seem to characterize all small businesses as all the same sort of angelic, noble job creators. They are not.

Many small businesses (most, I would venture) operate with business plans designed to make a profit while accounting for the costs of doing business. If they generate waste, they dispose of it legally and properly. If they interact with customers, they hire and train staff to do so in a friendly and knowledgeable manner. They manage equipment properly, so that employees have the the proper tools to do their jobs, and those tools are safe and operable. They seek to hire great employees by paying a decent wage and offering competitive benefits so that those employees will want to continue working there. These businesses operate in a way that provides value to customers and rewards the people who help provide that value.

These businesses may face some challenges meeting the requirements under the new healthcare law, but many may actually find that it's helpful, because they're already trying to provide employees with health insurance. Now, instead of facing exorbitant rates that are based on their small number of employees forming a "group," they will find that they can purchase insurance through state exchanges that base rates on a much larger "group."

On the other hand, there are some business operators who use a business model that seeks to maximize the bottom line based on short-term gains and minimizing costs every way possible, including treating employees like disposable commodities. These businesses are the ones that will have problems with Obamacare, because they don't value their employees enough to try to retain them. To be honest, I'm less sympathetic about those sorts of businesses, because they usually produce inferior goods and services, and while they will undoubtedly blame Obamacare for going out of business, they were headed for failure anyway.

Think about restaurants as small businesses. My favorite restaurants are local small businesses that employ people I know by name, because they've been there for years. You know those servers aren't being nickeled-and-dimed by the owner. They aren't being fired and replaced because they had to take a few sick days. Those small businesses will likely be helped by Obamacare, because they aren't suddenly faced with putting a number in their budget on a line where there was a zero. Many of those may end up putting a smaller number on that line than they have right now.

JCB's picture

"You and JCB seem to

"You and JCB seem to characterize all small businesses as all the same sort of angelic, noble job creators. They are not."

Explain altruism to me. A Union just pushed 18,000 people out of work because they refused a wage cut. There was a choice, accept the cut and keep your job, reject the cut and you're fired.

Let me help you understand altruism:

(link...)

Get it? 18,000 people lost their jobs because they put their faith in the wrong people. Why don't you rant about the 1% percenters in the Teamsters that destroyed the lives of 18,000 workers?

metulj's picture

A leveraged buyout company

A leveraged buyout company tried to force already marginalized workers to take a pay cut. I guess switching to high-fructose corn syrup didn't save the day.

Why so shrill?

Andy Axel's picture

There was a choice, accept

There was a choice, accept the cut and keep your job, reject the cut and you're fired.

This after two previous bankruptcies? We're not talking about a solvent, well-managed company here. So these workers take a wage cut now and then what? Get let go in the 4th bankruptcy proceeding?

Hostess is a three-time loser, a company so incompetent that it can't make it in business marketing junk food in America.

Min's picture

They lost their jobs...

...because incompetent assholes who ran the company ran it into the ground. But those same assholes made sure they padded their own payouts, before they kicked 18,000 workers to the curb.

fischbobber's picture

Somebody's comments

+1

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Obamacare has to be changed.

No, employers in these industries have to be changed.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible.

JCB's picture

"No, employers in these

"No, employers in these industries have to be changed.

Stop trying to defend the indefensible."

What is indefensible is the federal government forcing businesses to provide insurance to their workers. That is a personal responsibility. Just like maintaining a healthy weight. Or not smoking. Or drinking to excess. Or doing drugs. You won't get it until the government forces you to live certain ways.

Say you're a heavy smoker, you want the government to make you quit be fining you on your tax return? That is the mentality you support.

If the government forces people to buy insurance what to say they want force you to become healthier.

bizgrrl's picture

You do realize these of us

You do realize those of us who pay for insurance pay for the healthcare of those without insurance.

metulj's picture

The only thing he realizes is

The only thing he realizes is that nobody's been paying attention to him much this past year.

JCB's picture

"You do realize these of us

"You do realize these of us who pay for insurance pay for the healthcare of those without insurance."

Yes, that is the logic of Bloomberg. I addressed that here, "If the government forces people to buy insurance what to say they want force you to become healthier."

For the good of the collective, you can't have a big gulp in New York City because we are in in the same insurance pool and if you get fat then I have to pay more for insurance.

metulj's picture

(No subject)

Somebody's picture

"Say you're a heavy smoker,

"Say you're a heavy smoker, you want the government to make you quit be fining you on your tax return?"

No, the government attaches the tax to the sale of the cigarettes. That tax has been effective at reducing smoking, and also at raising revenue, which can then be used to offset some of the costs that we all bear, taking care of those who smoke themselves all the way to the oncologists's office.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

What he doesn't seem to realize, Biz, is that until the PPACA goes into full effect, no "group" exists in which most of these folks now uninsured may participate.

The suggestion that someone earning $2.13 per hour in wages could purchase an individual policy is ludicrous.

Other of his frustrations might have been answered by a single-payer system, of course, but maybe you've noticed that he remains mute on that subject every time it comes up.

He just wants to bitch.

JCB's picture

"The suggestion that someone

"The suggestion that someone earning $2.13 per hour in wages could purchase an individual policy is ludicrous."

Seriously, who makes $2.13 an hour now?

"He just wants to bitch."

I see the train wreck coming, you don't have that capacity despite your claims of great business acumen. Time will tell. A lot of people thought Herbert Hoover had bright ideas. He didn't. Look farther than your ideology. Obamacare is a threat to small business.

As for your single payer rant, nothing is stopping any state from making a single payer plan tomorrow.

Good times with Herbert:

(link...)

Fabricant's picture

Economic researchers on a

Economic researchers on a recent Georgetown University panel all agreed that Massachusetts’ small business owners were actually bolstered by health care reform, as the number of small businesses offering health care to their employees increased from 70 percent to 77 percent in the time since Romney enacted the reform in 2006. Linda Blumberg, an economist and senior fellow at the Urban Institute, said her organization’s research confirmed that small business owners are not struggling to afford the insurance plans that the health reform law requires them to provide for their employees...Just like Obamacare, Romney’s health reform in Massachusetts is predicated on an individual mandate that requires employers to provide adequate health insurance coverage to their employees or risk paying a penalty. Although Republican lawmakers have decried Obamacare for strangling small business owners and middle-class workers, and have wasted about 89 hours and $51 million dollars in their attempts to repeal the law, the evidence from Romney’s home state suggests their efforts are doing little to protect small business interests. Blumberg explained that her research on the economic effects of health care reform has left her confused about why Obamacare remains so politically contentious. “This was very much a compromise between liberal sensibilities and business sensibilities,” she explained. “So the entire perception of the federal law has been shocking to me, because this was really laid out as a moderate approach.” Think Progress

A bit too moderate for my taste:

The [ACA] depends on the mandate because a good chunk of the revenue to pay for subsidized private-label insurance comes from fines – or, as SCOTUS would have it, taxes – paid by those households too poor to pay for insurance under the new program.

How much are the mandate provisions expected to raise in federal revenue? According to the non-partisan CBO...the mandate-related penalties for those too poor to afford insurance will amount to 54 billion dollars over the 2012-2022 period.

It is, in other words, a way of implementing a highly regressive tax to fund the coverage expansion. And it is, as such, a highly unfair way to pay for that program: it takes from low-income families who will be denied medical insurance to help other low-income families pay for theirs.

All of which leaves me perplexed as to why progressives, and democrats more generally, are celebrating the fact that SCOTUS ruled in favor of these provisions. Surely the 54 billion in revenues can be collected in some other, fairer, way.Firedoglake

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

If the government forces people to buy insurance what to say they want force you to become healthier.

And you lost this argument over and over until you can't lose it again. You lost.

Now, tell me: Shall I interpret your comments here as a preview of how you and your buddies intend to deliver more "competitive" (privatized) public education?

"We can't teach eeeeverybody! It costs too muuuuch! Can't we just teach sooooome of them???"

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

For the good of the collective, you can't have a big gulp in New York City because we are in in the same insurance pool and if you get fat then I have to pay more for insurance.

Right now, prior to full implementation of the PPACA, I am in a United Healthcare group rife with smokers and fat people, yet United Healthcare has not petitioned the federal government to somehow penalize all these hapless fools "for the good of the collective."

Following full implementation of the PPACA, United Healthcare will presumably enroll more high risk people of various types (particularly among those now uninsured due to their pre-existing conditions) AND will presumably enroll more low risk people of various types, too (particularly among those now uninsured because they are younger and/or especially healthy).

Given that the larger pool of insureds United Healthcare is to soon enroll isn't expected to change much in terms of the new group's relative health, why might full implementation of the PPACA motivate United Healthcare to make this appeal to governement that you expect?

And even if United Healthcare should make such an appeal to government, why might government chose to get involved in helping United Healthcare improve its profit margin?

United Healthcare ain't exactly Chryslar, you know.

redmondkr's picture

Derrick Belcher (what an apt

Derrick Belcher (what an apt name) started the petition in Alabama, pissed as he was about the fact that the state, not the federal, government shut down his topless car wash.

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