Fri
Nov 2 2012
01:51 pm

Vote American.JPG

Does this bother you like it bothers me? This photo was taken at approximately 1:30 today- the banner flies from the UTK Sigma Phi Epsilon frat house.

Go to bias.utk.edu and register a complaint with the university if this offends you.

90
like
jcc's picture

If that were an Obama/Biden sign

They'd be young patriots(all that hope of America jazz), and while posting the photo you would scarcely have been able to hold back a tear.

Maybe the University will take you up on the offer and storm the building. Shackle a few, muzzle the rest. Who knows.

judybat's picture

Wrong house.

That's the Sigma Phi Epsilon house. Still wrong.

fischbobber's picture

Sigma Phi Epsilon?

Those guys are losers.

Treehouse's picture

It's just alternative butt chugging

N/T

fischbobber's picture

Are you trying to say?

Are you trying to say that they are merely passing brain gas or engaging in philosophical flatulence?

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I thought it was illegal for publicly-owned facilities like this UT frat house to appear to "endorse" candidates this way?

I thought that they had to allow all candidates' signs, the way our K-12 public schools hosting polling places do?

Isn't this action kinda like someone plunking a R-R campaign sign down on the front lawn of the City-County Building???

Johnyboy's picture

Not really but nice try

actually, the Fraternity owns the house itself through their national and local chapter. There is nothing public about the house. The property the house sits on is owned by the university so the police have the right onto the property but the fraternity can hang up signs during an election.

R. Neal's picture

So, voting for Obama is

So, voting for Obama is un-American? Or Obama is not an American? Or...

(Perhaps they skipped the writing clarity lecture during English composition?)

Pam Strickland's picture

My questions exactly.

My questions exactly.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

My questions exactly.

Of course, it could be that the frat houses aren't owned by the university, but I thought they were?

If so, I'm almost certain those kids can't be hanging Romney banners or Obama banners, either one.

I'm pretty sure that's public property.

(Hey, let's go deck out the Lawson-McGhee Library! Oh, wait--I've gotta put a political message up on the marquee of my son's public high school first...)

Rachel's picture

I'm pretty sure the

I'm pretty sure the university owns the frat houses and leases them to the frats. But I could be wrong.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Go to bias.utk.edu and register a complaint with the university if this offends you.

Just phoned the Chancellor's Office to ask my above questions relating to "public property."

Mentioned this blog and the staffer was familiar with it.

Said they'd look in here, then investigate further.

jcc's picture

and thus Tamara

confirms a few negative stereotypes of progressives.

If they force them to remove the sign hopefully the brothers there have a lot of friends in Ohio.

You get 'em !

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

That was my understanding, too, Rachel.

Donald Trump's picture

Obama is not American.

He was born in Kenya.

Sarge's picture

And you were hatched under a

And you were hatched under a cabbage leaf.

Bob Swaggot's picture

Obama - Romney

It is interesting reading some of the comments on here, and seeing the lack of knowledge that Fox and CNN have embalmed into the American population. If you vote against Romney, than you obviously are UnAmerican. If you do not understand why, then you probably should not vote. I am glad their is a house on campus, that is not adding to the liberal pussification of America. Go Vols!!!

Thomas Jefferson's picture

Awesome

If you vote for Obama, then you support Bama. Subsequently, you are voting for Satan.

Min's picture

A vote for Mitt Romney...

...is like a vote for the Florida Gators.

Vote Obama. Go Vols.

Johhnyboy's picture

Agreed

I completely agree! All the liberals on here do not have an intellectual understanding as to why they should not be voting for Obama. Romney stands for everything that America stands for. I guess if you don't have money, you would want the Government to bail you out and live in a socialist society where the government gives you money that you did not earn or deserve! SigEp knows where this countries true values are and they are not in our UnAmerican President.

Rachel's picture

SigEp knows where this

SigEp knows where this countries true values are and they are not in our UnAmerican President.

This is an official UT chapter SPE position? I wonder what your national office would think about that? Think they'd be willing to say publicly that the President is "unAmerican"?

I wish your mamas could read what you're writing on here today. I'm sure they'd be real proud.

Bbeanster's picture

I wish your mamas could read

I wish your mamas could read what you're writing on here today. I'm sure they'd be real proud.

Hey, I say these C-List frat bros are chips off the old blocks; reflections of their upbringing. Now they're on the cusp of being inflicted on the world.

And they're probably going to spawn.

mrvlknxor's picture

Election signs in Presidential Complex 1974

I lived in North Carrick at the UT Presidential Complex in the summer of 1974. Reese, the dorm on the north side of the complex, was not occupied during summer term. One morning there were individual letters in the dorm windows of one floor. They spelled out something like "V O T E _ F O R _ J A K E."

I think this was definitely a violation of UT property rules. The dorm was closed yet someone with access was able to post this message in several windows.

But what if I had put up a sign in my Carrick dorm window? Would that violate UT rules? That is closer to the situation with the fraternity. They rent the facility from the University. Should they be allowed to exercise their free speech where they live and pay rent? This would not be an issue in an apartment or house in Fort Sanders.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

But what if I had put up a sign in my Carrick dorm window? Would that violate UT rules? That is closer to the situation with the fraternity.

My understanding--and we'll have to wait around a bit to learn if it's right--is that the property owner makes the rules, period.

I'd expect this to be the case whether we're talking about the Carrick Hall dorm, the frat house pictured here, or the hypothetical rental house in Fort Sanders.

The difference between those first two examples and the third one, of course, is that the first two are properties owned publicly (I think) and the third is a property owned privately.

I'd sure expect to learn that the administrators of the properties owned publicly flat don't allow political signage and that the private property owner probably doesn't, either.

I know when I've done political phonebanking for candidates to place yard signs, candidates have always advised that we're not to place their signs on the lawns of rental properties.

Candidates have their volunteers ask voters "are you the property owner?"

Candidates don't want to give their (costly) signs to tenants, only to have property owners promptly dispose of them.

#1American-Patriot's picture

Cry babies

If that were an Obama sign this would have never been posted.. Why? Because Republicans are too busy working and supporting their families to go around town; taking pictures of offensive signs and crying about them on a blog. I'm sorry are bored in all your free time! Maybe if you got a job and stopped collecting welfare checks you wouldn't have time to cry about everything on a blog.

You are the reason America is going to crap. I don't expect your peanut-sized brain to be able to comprehend what is actually happening in our country today. You're useless. This is how you fix your problems? By Crying? Well keep crying cry babies.

VOTE AMERICAN BY VOTING ROMNEY RYAN

Amos Rucker؟ 's picture

Was it over when the German's bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

(slow clapping)

R. Neal's picture

You have clearly given this a

I'm sorry are bored in all your free time! Maybe if you got a job and stopped collecting welfare checks you wouldn't have time to cry about everything on a blog.

You have clearly given this a lot of thought and that is a brilliant analysis. Allow me to retort...

And now I must run. I just got my EBT card recharged so I'm off to the liquor store.

Rachel's picture

Pick up some MD 20/20 for me,

Pick up some MD 20/20 for me, will ya?

R. Neal's picture

Pick up some MD 20/20 for me,

Pick up some MD 20/20 for me, will ya?

Sure thing. Happy to oblige a fellow traveler.

Min's picture

Hey...

Is that anywhere close to the free abortion clinic? I need a ride.

Somebody's picture

"Republicans are too busy

"Republicans are too busy working and supporting their families to go around town; taking pictures of offensive signs and crying about them on a blog."

Apparently Republicans aren't too busy to cry about how busy they are on a blog.

I'm not too worried about the sign, myself. Remember this is the same fraternity row that recently made the term "butt chugging" we'll-known all across the country.

Bbeanster's picture

#1American-Patriot (not

#1American-Patriot (not verified), you are awesome. That was a fabulous rant.
Unfortunately, I've already voted and will not get to put your advice to practical use. And speaking of crap, please be careful sharing that nozzle tonight. I'd hate to be deprived of your wisdom in the future.

BigAssChugger's picture

Obama

Obama made good on his environmental promises. He managed to reduce toilet paper use in the White House by 50%!!! When asked how, Obama replied he plans to continue using the Constitution instead.

BeanSauce's picture

Obama is Mexican

That subaru is fuckingg sweeet.

-Obama is a dirty mexican and a liar.

BeanSauce's picture

Obama is Mexican

That subaru is fuckingg sweeet.

-Obama is a dirty mexican and a liar.

cafkia's picture

Wow Randy, aren't you afraid

Wow Randy, aren't you afraid the News Slantinel is going to sue you? I mean, suddenly you are hogging all of the stupid here. Is there enough stupid left for the normal commenters on the Slantinel site? Not only that but read these local comments. That is not some watered down, stepped on stupid. Nope, that is the pure stuff. This local stupid is so pure that even if it were free, we still would not be able to afford it. I will admit that there does seem to be a tinge of desperation that stops it from being absolutely pure stupid but that is common over there as well.

I say you get out in front of this and just apologize to the Slantinel and offer to give them their stupid back.

R. Neal's picture

I say you get out in front of

I say you get out in front of this and just apologize to the Slantinel and offer to give them their stupid back.

Hmmm. Maybe I can negotiate a content/revenue sharing plus royalty deal?

metulj's picture

Looks like all the future car

Looks like all the future car and insurance salesmen (aka UT fraternity boys) have shown up.

cafkia's picture

It should be interesting to

It should be interesting to see what the posting is like after the wine they are currently squirting up each other's butts kicks in. (given how stupid the comments are already, they may have gotten an early start.)

jcc's picture

never been in one

Know plenty of bright folks who went on to good jobs, good degrees, and happy families.

Apparently, this pisses off some of the people around here. Whatever.

Andy Axel's picture

Looks like all the future car

Looks like all the future car and insurance salesmen (aka UT fraternity boys) have shown up.

Road sign maintenance is a little more their speed.

'Merica's picture

RR > Obama

If America is Frat, and Frat is Republican, Obama is not Frat, thus he is not American.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

If America is Frat...

You might want to re-examine your first premise, dear.

In general, only about a quarter of America's adult population has been fortunate enough to have completed a four-year college degree.

And only some lesser percentage of those have been "frat."

So obviously, the vast majority of America is not at all "frat."

It is not uncommon, when we are young, to imagine that we are at the very center of the universe, holding all of heaven's spheres mesmerized in their orbits.

Min's picture

That reminds me of a joke...

Q. How many frat boys does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Only one...to stand on the ladder and hold the light bulb, while the entire world revolves around him.

redmondkr's picture

I guess it was time. Until

I guess it was time. Until now this election cycle seems to have attracted fewer dog pecker gnats than usual.

liberalbitch's picture

Spelling Error

It is Fraternity Park, not "Frat Park" you fucking GDI. I thought all of you were too busy driving Nissan Leafs or bitching about gay rights to notice a banner that they have every right to fly. You are the definition of what is wrong with America. Go fuck yourself.

Obama wears cargo shorts

Vote American.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

And thus Tamara confirms a few negative stereotypes of progressives.

If they force them to remove the sign hopefully the brothers there have a lot of friends in Ohio.

What is this "negative stereotype" I seem to you to confirm? That I understand the difference in acceptable usage of public property versus private property?

Do you understand that the "frat" dues your daddy pays have not purchased this frat house from the public?

Do you understand that, in fact, if either of us might be said to "own" this frat house, it is I, by virtue of being a taxpayer, while you (likely) are not?

Mitt'sthetits's picture

Stop Commenting Until You Know Your Facts

To clarify this idea that you think you could be an "owner" of that house by being a taxpayer, you are sadly mistaken. The house is payed for by dues and from alumni of that fraternity, so they own the house. So keep commenting with your dumb ass liberal views that I could give two fucks about but get your facts straight before you do.

Obama wears cargo shorts

Vote American

Andy Axel's picture

Fraternities are chartered by

Fraternities are chartered by the University (a state of Tennessee institution), bright boy. Not a poll-sci major, 'air ye?

TaylorBuck's picture

1st amendment

What is wrong with the sign? Is it the R^2 that is offensive or just the word American? Why is the word American offensive to you? I dont walk around the neighborhoods and complain about ObamaBiden stickers and yard signs, and then proceed to ask that your freedom of speech be taken away. If you don't like it, don't look at it and draw attention to it, because its not coming down unless UT themselves come and take it down. In which case I will attach it to my car and drive it all over knoxville. The problem with progressives is that you like free speech right up until you hear something that doesn't fit in your little "tolerant" ideology.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

In which case I will attach it to my car and drive it all over knoxville.

And if you are the legal owner of this car, that's absolutely your prerogative.

The point that I've made here is that I'm pretty darned sure these fraternity brothers are not the legal owners of this buidling they've bedecked.

I'm pretty darn sure the aforesaid building is public property.

If you young folks are grads of Tennessee's high schools, you should have been exposed to this notion in Government & Econ, which was required for your matriculation???

RandomGDIwhoWhosSMarterThanTamara's picture

Suck it Tamara

I'm "pretty darned sure" you're fucking wrong and the building is owned by the Sigma Phi Epsilon Housing Corporation.

-Suck it Tamara

Hildegard's picture

I hate to agree with the

I hate to agree with the bros, but I don't see what the big deal is.

Taylor buck's picture

UT

UT leases the property to us, the building was bought and paid for by our fraternity.

Jon Gruden's picture

LOL

You liberals have your pussies hurt because of a damn sign. This is hilarious. The fraternity owns that building and pays the mortgage on it. This is hilarious that y'all are continually trying to take away something that isn't yours.

Somebody's picture

Seriously, I don't care about

Seriously, I don't care about the sign. People get so uptight about signs during elections, even though they're fairly pointless.

I would say, though, that with friends like you and your charming brothers piping up on here, Mssrs. Romney and Ryan really don't need enemies.

Pickens's picture

Try to have some class and

Try to have some class and decorum.

Bbeanster's picture

This one's been fun, and if

This one's been fun, and if you boys (or boy, since there are striking similarities amongst your posts) are right, then there's probably not much wrong with expressing a political view, although it's interesting that the brothers are in lockstep agreement.
I guess we'll just have to content ourselves with winning an election.
But y'all can console yourselves with Stacey and them.

FratMerica's picture

Frat = America

Exactly they are a fraternity of course they will all be in agreement with the fraternity decision. It's called loyalty and a cause.

Min's picture

Marching in lockstep...

...is not an American virtue.

Rachel's picture

I actually appreciate the

I actually appreciate the clarification about who owns the houses. If I've managed to wade through all the crap, the frat owns the house and leases the land from the University. That's interesting.

Exactly they are a fraternity of course they will all be in agreement with the fraternity decision. It's called loyalty and a cause.

Sorry, no. You're telling me that every single member of this frat is for Romney? Cause that's not loyalty, that's just some kind of blind devotion.

And oh yeah, "vote American" - think for yourself.

BeanSauce's picture

Obama is Mexican

That subaru is fuckingg sweeet.

-Obama is a dirty mexican and a liar.

Factchecker's picture

Great defensive posts,

Great defensive posts, College Republicans! Brilliant and persuasive!

I am curious, though, if you also think voting for Romney is a vote for the Christian?

Bbeanster's picture

This is such good stuff! You

This is such good stuff!
You can tell their mammas raised them right.

R. Neal's picture

Good stuff indeed. A smart

Good stuff indeed. A smart student could probably get a thesis out of it.

I'd start with the proposition that higher education is wasted on the entitled trust fund crybabies of the racist country club set who will never have to actually work for a living, with a parenthetical side study of of how wannabes are piling up unsustainable student debt that will never be paid off because they are deemed too stupid to be employable by the unworthy trust fund babies they want to be like.

TJbias's picture

YOU ARE THE PROBLEM

This only offends 47% of Americans... "There are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it." Romney says it best, if this offends you, "is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives." You people are the BIGGEST problem in society today. The Pussification of America.. Your ignorance is your largest weakness. Grow up, get a job, and stop taking from me and my family who have worked for every dollar we ever made.

Also,
- Obama was born in Kenya (link...)
- Obama is Muslim (link...)
- He has a brother in Nairobi (link...)
- Debt increased more in Obama's 4 years than Bush's 8 years.

So therefor,

VOTE AMERICAN

Rachel's picture

Grow up, get a job, and stop

Grow up, get a job, and stop taking from me and my family who have worked for every dollar we ever made.

You know, dude, I don't know why I'm talking to you other than the fact that I just get sick of hearing this crap.

FYI, I'm 60. I've been taking care of myself since I left home at 18. I have never taken a dollar from "you and your family."

I'm also a progressive Democrat, an eighth generation east Tennessean (and proud of it), and as good an American as you'll ever be.

As for that 47% - my folks, who also never took a dime from "you and your family" - are in those #s. That's because they're in their 80s and don't have enough income to pay income taxes.

I promise you that you don't want a piece of my mom.

So go peddle your claptrap somewhere else.

fischbobber's picture

Just a point here

I'm also a progressive Democrat, an eighth generation east Tennessean (and proud of it), and as good an American as you'll ever be.

Actually Rachel, you're a better American than they'll ever be. Judging from the posts so far, you're a better American than these boys can even imagine being. I tried to tell y'all they were losers.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I actually appreciate the clarification about who owns the houses. If I've managed to wade through all the crap, the frat owns the house and leases the land from the University. That's interesting.

Who owns the property--including the building--has been my sole interest in this humorous conversation, Rachel.

I couldn't care less about their sign, either, aside from this inquiry of mine as to whether it's inappropriate due to its being displayed on public property.

So far, I can't quite tell.

KGIS indicates that UTK owns the dirt at 1832 Fraternity Park Drive, which these guys concede already.

However, if it's true that their daddies really did buy the building with frat dues, which is the guys' other assertion, how come I'm seeing a $3 million capital improvment project for the frat house on UTK's October 2012 slate of projects planned or underway (see the Johnson & Galyon project for Sigma Phi Epsilon on page 5)?

Also, if UTK owns the dirt and the frat owns the building, what would happen if the frat were to be shuttered, as sometimes happens to them?

These guys are describing Frat Row as a sort of members-only trailer park, but do the buildings actually have wheels?!

Pam Strickland's picture

I would be more impressed if

I would be more impressed if their language wasn't so scatological. If they are going to have public debates, as the frat life should be teaching them, it should be done in more acceptable discourse.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Couldn't guess about their majors, Andy, but the chapter's members have an average GPA of 2.84 (page 34).

Doesn't look like too many have held onto their lottery scholarships, if they had them to begin with.

They are, however, "dedicated to influencing lives of young men for their betterment through (their) ideals of being a scholar, leader, athlete, and...gentleman?"

liberalbitch's picture

Idiots

Number 1: This fraternity, along with every other organization, has NOTHING to do with the actions of a completely different organization. You pairing Pi Kappa Alpha's allegations with different organizations is fucking stupid and shows how you have no valid argument.

Number 2: I, like many other members of Greek organizations, work our asses off in order to pay dues and to get our way through school in order to receive an education. With this degree, we plan to actually work for things in life, instead of depending on the tax dollars of hard-working Americans.

Number 3: You really think UT would shell out all that money for any organization? Look on that list you provided, there are multiple sororities and fraternity houses all with multi-million dollar projects. This is funded by the specific organization's dues and alumni.

Number 4: Why do you have such a negative view of Greeks? There is a reason that Greeks are the leaders of America; 85% of the Fortune 500 executives belong to a fraternity, over $7 million dollars are raised each year by Greeks nationally. There are plenty of statistics to back up how beneficial a Greek experience is to any individual. I'm sorry that you missed out.

Number 5: I don't understand how you can be so against people working for what they earn. Why should anyone be rewarded for not putting in the hard work, and wealthy people discouraged to succeed because of huge taxes. If y'all really want everyone to put in their "fair share", than why not a set tax percent for every American? It's not fair when wealthy people are paying 50-60% of their income to taxes when poor people pay nothing.

I hate all of you who encourage rewarding failure and using the tax money of hard-working Americans to do so. Fuck you. Go get a job and work for what you want in life.

Obama wears cargo shorts.

Andy Axel's picture

Look up "charter"

And don't be surprised if your'n gets revoked.

Min's picture

The first one to say he hates someone he's never met...

...loses the argument.

Bbeanster's picture

I'm very fond of Greeks. Love

I'm very fond of Greeks. Love baklava and souvlaki.

Frat boys not so much.

p.s: Ann Coulter was right. Mitt's going to lose and it won't be close -- but, hey, it'll give you and your bros an excuse to get drunk on a week night.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Oooo...baklava!

I'm an idiot for that stuff!

Good thing my consumption of it doesn't show up when I have to pee in that cup!

Fuck you bitch. 's picture

My "daddy" has never paid a

My "daddy" has never paid a damn sent towards my dues. I, along with most of my fraternity brothers understand the importance of actually putting in a hard days work and earning my own living. I personally take 16 hours and work 30+ a week. So fuck you Tamara. And those aren't even the principles for whic we stand.

So get your fact straight Tammy. And get off our shit. I don't know why you're concerned with the matter at all. Get over yourself.

Sincerely,
Fuck you bitch.

Andy Axel's picture

Such persuasive

Such persuasive argumentation. Let me guess. Sophomore?

Bbeanster's picture

Dear Fuck you: "My "daddy"

Dear Fuck you:

"My "daddy" has never paid a damn sent ......"

"... those aren't even the principles for whic we stand."

"So get your fact straight Tammy"

I'd give you about a C- for style.
Content? Your professed work ethic is admirable, but your habitual bad language is a tell. You need to work on that -- it'll get you fired in the real world. You're not much of an ambassador.

Tess's picture

Seriously?

F all the way. Can't spell, can't put together an argument...

R. Neal's picture

Normally this would get

Normally this would get deleted, but your grammar and spelling are quite the fascinating commentary on higher education in America.

Oh, and get back to us once you have worked some 90 hour weeks to build something you can call your own.

R. Neal's picture

I look forward to having you

I look forward to having you serve us at the Arby's drive thru. Hopefully you will be able to make out the little picture button for 'extra sauce.' That would make your parents so proud.

Min's picture

I would recommend...

...that you put a little more hard work into your spelling and punctuation. After all, you're a college student.

Pam Strickland's picture

Seriously, your language is

Seriously, your language is not winning you any admirers.

Fabricant's picture

There is a reason that Greeks

There is a reason that Greeks are the leaders of America

So, the Greeks are to blame. Maybe, I will vote American.

Rachel's picture

+1

+1

TJbias's picture

Good for your family, do not

Good for your family, do not bash mine. But FYI 47% of American's aren't 80+. And also, why would I want a piece of your mom? This should not upset such a "great american" enough to get their mom on me... 60 year old liberals still have their mom doing everything for them.

Vote American

Fabricant's picture

Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug,

Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug, Chug....

Rachel's picture

And also, why would I want a

And also, why would I want a piece of your mom?

Sigh. Too drunk to even get my insults.

liberalbitch's picture

Obama

Last time I checked, Obama wasn't Greek, but he IS the source of our problems for the past four years.

Fabricant's picture

Check again

Check again, like you check for the clap after an evening of wine.

Andy Axel's picture

And all of your 19 years on

And all of your 19 years on this earth tells you it's true. Ah, youth.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I personally take 16 hours and work 30+ a week.

Good for you. So does my daughter at UT-Chattanooga, but we don't settle for any 2.84 GPA in this family. She maintains a 4.0.

And if the both of you can keep it up another 16 years, you'll have matched my own record for time management and stoicism.

You do get to work on foot, right?

Look, if you'll click on my name in any of my posts, you'll see that I've been a registered member of this blog for over five years. You'll also see that I've contributed posts regularly during that period. You're the one who swooped in (anonymously) just today, so you're a bit deluded to demand that I cease and desist posting here, okay?

You should understand, too, that virtually every "liberal" here is better educated than you and has worked more years than you've drawn breath, so ix-nay with the insults on that front, too.

I'll see if I can't confirm with UTK administration on Monday these assertions as to ownership of frat houses, but obviously I'm not able to do that on a Friday night.

If you're able to answer authoritatively any of my above questions (why any private capital expenditure appears on UTK's public slate of projects, what becomes of any privately-owned building located on publicly-owned dirt when it's abandoned, etc.), I'll certainly hear your answers.

Some links would lend credence to them.

liberalbitch's picture

Tamara

Your daughter could only get into UTC? That's pretty pitiful. Her 4.0 GPA is equivalent to below a 2.00 at UT Knoxville. Please tell her to take a public speaking course so she can get my order right at McDonalds. You must be a proud parent.

Fuck you and your attempt to sound educated.

metulj's picture

UTC's GPA inflation is less

UTC's GPA inflation is less than UTK. No business school kids making As learning how to do PowerPoint presentations. Anyhow, I love how UT undergrads think they are at Vandy. UT is a university in retrograde. Every non-tenured faculty members has one foot out of the door at all times.

Pickens's picture

SPEEEEEEES

I don't know why I encouraged some decorum from some SPEEEEES.

At this point in their lives all they can play is "my daddy runs faster than your daddy" game and think an awesome night is a hot date with their right hand.

Factchecker's picture

You reflect who you are and what you stand for

Nice job of showing us that special kind of Romney Republican class. He deserves you guys.

redmondkr's picture

BOHICA liberalbitchHere

BOHICA liberalbitch (not verified)

Here comes another four

Somebody's picture

Oh, boy, this is GREAT!

The boys in the frat house are getting drunker as the evening goes on, and they get more belligerent with each lite beer. Boys, I suggest that you search up the YouTube video of "Meatloaf's" endorsement of your man Mitt. In this scenario here, you guys are playing the role of "Meatloaf." If somebody from the Romney campaign were here, he'd be looking for the quickest way to get you off the stage before you embarrass yourself further, and definitely before you throw up on Mitt's shoes.

metulj's picture

Did you know the Brewpub

Did you know the Brewpub won't let frat boys drink IPA? Can't handle real beer.

R. Neal's picture

In vino veritas.

In vino veritas.

redmondkr's picture

Christ. Seven years of

Christ. Seven years of college down the drain

redmondkr's picture

After seven years of college

After seven years of college you're still illiterate?

This is rich!

Rachel's picture

You know what - y'all have

You know what - y'all have convinced me. I should have joined a sorority in college. Then I too could have been one of the Greeks who run America. And I would have been able to intellectually grasp why Romney stands for American values and the President is "unAmerican."

I also would have learned how to make arguments in a persuasive, reasonable way. Other people would be getting in line to listen to me.

Sadly, I wasn't interested in being a sorority girl. Alas for my misspent youth.

Fabricant's picture

That's why you are a cargo

That's why you are a cargo shorts wearing UnAmerican Mexican with out the slightest bit of intellectual understanding for why you should not not vote for the 'merican Romney but do vote for Obama, not. And God and the Bible.

Rachel's picture

And freedom. Don't forget

And freedom. Don't forget freedom.

Fabricant's picture

And Braveheart, Country Music

And Braveheart, Country Music and Laughter:

South Knox Remembers's picture

not so

"I also would have learned how to make arguments in a persuasive, reasonable way. Other people would be getting in line to listen to me."

This is you in action making an argument. You first insult the elected leaders then you lecture them. These young people would do well to avoid your example of making an argument.

(link...)

metulj's picture

She states a fact. They did

She states a fact. They did not understand it. I told Stacey Campfield the other day that if cant take criticism as an elected official, then he should resign. He desperately needs that money I guess.

Rachel's picture

Commission mtg video

I just realized you've posted that video twice. Hate to tell ya, but if that was supposed to embarrass me it didn't work. If you'll notice, I used FACTS to discuss the issue rather than unsupported emotional statements.

Actually, the only thing I messed up in that speech was that I tried to cram TMI into it. May have put some folks to sleep.

BTW, you're not an SPE. I doubt they sit around making youtubes of Commission meetings. So... since you obviously know who I am, how about returning the favor and telling us your real name? That seems only fair.

redmondkr's picture

Must be some good plonk.

Must be some good plonk. Johhhhnyboy is not only butchering the Queen's English, he can't even spell his own name.

redmondkr's picture

And God and the Bible. And

And God and the Bible.

And Proposition B which will force porn actors to wear condoms on the job.

Factchecker's picture

You personify everything I deplore about this country

Dudes. You come to a progressive blog and trash the place with the metaphorical equivalent of used Franzia enema tubes. You make grammatical and spelling errors that any kid entering middle school should know and damn care about not making if you want to be taken seriously. Then you conclude your hate ramble by imploring us to vote "American." Why is it anyone, let alone we, would want to vote for your kind of America?

Bbeanster's picture

Maybe Sig Ep is a cargo

Maybe Sig Ep is a cargo cult.
Did the Pikes have, like, a copyright on the Tour de Franzia?

Rachel's picture

Maybe Sig Ep is a cargo

Maybe Sig Ep is a cargo cult.

That's another +10.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Okay, I guess it's just that none of them knows how to post a link...

Here is the link for Sigma Phi Epsilon Housing Corporation, which appears to extend loans to chapters for construction/renovation of housing and also manages and maintains existing facilities.

It does therefore appear that this frat house is privately owned but is parked on public property.

What implication this "hybrid" ownership status of the property has on the frat's ability to endorse political candidates as they are, I can't be sure.

Andy's observation that it is the university proper that actually charters any fraternity on campus may also have implications as to the fraternity's ability to endorse candidates.

All this banter from them, and I still had to find that link for myself!

How much longer will it take to sift through these other two considerations I pose immediately above?!

Longer than I care to stay up tonight, I'll bet! 'Night, all.

Dave Prince's picture

So much for the balanced man.

So much for the balanced man.

PriceISRIGHT biotch's picture

Fack off Tamara

As a disagreeing man, this blog baffles me. An innocent portrayal of collective beliefs has sparked a wide range of adults to spend their time checking and re-checking posts in a blog, in hopes of truly ridiculing these "frat boys" into submission and take down the egregiously offensive banner. There are amendments made in America supporting this channel of free speech. It is also very apparent these self-proclaimed "adults" feel it necessary to google large words in an effort to sound extremely educated, but simply come of as "pretentious bastards" ("Liar, Liar"). So, Tamara and other elders, please, while you put your children to sleep tonight be sure to tell them all about how you really "stuck it to these frat boys on a blog today". You were like the coolest parent ever! They deserve to know. Us college kids will continue to laugh at the absurdities of this blog and party on. After studying all week and ace-ing my tests, I think I'll have a beer.

metulj's picture

Getting As in undergrad

Getting As in undergrad management classes at UT is just a matter of showing up, son.

R. Neal's picture

There are amendments made in

There are amendments made in America supporting this channel of free speech.

Actually, no. Apparently you slept through Introduction to the Constitution in high school civics.

The only reason these comments remain published is for entertainment purposes, and to expose the "ideology," such as it is, of this group. I see Jim Clayton is an alumni member. He must be so proud.

Derek Dooley's picture

This is kinda awkward....

But is anyone hiring?

wow's picture

wow

Wow, old people arguing with young people on the internet about politics. Waste of time for both parties involved? yes

Rachel's picture

I wish we were arguing about

I wish we were arguing about politics. That would be much better than having the young'uns telling the old farts how unamerican and without intellect we are.

TJbias's picture

- Good vocabulary does not

- Good vocabulary does not mean your are intellectual.
- Flaunting other's faults only flaunts your own insecurity.
- You love free speech until it doesn't fit your into your little "tolerant ideology".
- Ironic how this is quite the bias group of people to be reporting to a non-bias hotline. (considering the about page states it is a bias website)
- Ridiculous.
- Vote American.

Rachel's picture

Ironic how this is quite the

Ironic how this is quite the bias group of people to be reporting to a non-bias hotline.

I'm assuming you mean "biased" rather than "bias." But even with that change I can't make sense of this sentence.

Which "hotline" was that again?

TJbias's picture

you*... please do not attack

you*... please do not attack me for my grammer. Once again I apologize for my incorrect spelling on the previous post.

Fabricant's picture

You're apology is accepted.

You're apology is accepted.

-Vote African American.

Rachel's picture

-Vote African

-Vote African American.

That's about a +10. :)

EricLykins's picture

(No subject)

fischbobber's picture

The deleted post in the thread

Years ago I lived at 1731 Lake Avenue apartment C-1. It was a great place to live and a great time to live there. There was a fraternity at the 1800 corner whose members used to roust folks on the strip, run back to the house, lock the front door, and go up to the second floor window and scream, "Pusssssssy! Puuusssssssyyyyy!" at whomever they pissed off bad enough to chase them to the house. I could buy a six-pack, sit on my rented lawn, watch the action, go to bed and wake up with three beers left in the fridge. It was the best, cheapest,most dependable entertainment I ever had in my life.

I would watch these social interactions thinking, "I don't believe someone isn't pulling out a knife or gun and things aren't getting out of hand." Well, one night they did. A boy from south Knoxville showed up at one of their keg parties and a brother pulled out a baseball bat and the south Knoxville boy had a knife and the south Knoxville boy was better with his knife than the frat boy was with his baseball bat. They were both kids. Neither was good at life.

The south Knoxville boy was convicted of murder and every time I read he was denied parole I feel guilty for not coming forward with what I know about the way the boys in that fraternity acted. I believe that the south Knoxville boy deserved to be punished, yet the absolution of responsibility that the fraternity should have taken is beyond reprehensible. The fraternity cultivated the situation that they ultimately abdicated. It was their fault their frat brother died, yet they blamed the guy standing up for himself (Yeah the knife-weilder was stupid. That's how the frat boys got him to play).

I'm wondering if this is the same fraternity, because the tactics here are so similar. If they are the same fraternity, I need to speak at the next parole hearing for the south Knoxville boy , now a man, still in jail for this groups institutionalized hatred of their fellow man.

bizgrrl's picture

Frat donations 100% tax deductible

Does this mean we the people who are not "frat" members are helping to pay for the house, etc.? Does this mean frats have non-profit status? If so, open up your books boys. According to the current issue of the SPIEL, "published three times a year by the Tennessee Alpha Alumni Association of Sigma Phi Epsilon at the University of Tennessee", their income is $6,375.00 short.

R. Neal's picture

Frat donations 100% tax

Frat donations 100% tax deductible

Not so fast. It appears the brothers are too busy partying and commenting on blogs to file their paperwork?

The Tennessee Secretary of State does not seem to have them registered as a non-profit corporation. There are other chapters around the state, but the Knoxville chapter isn't listed.

The most recent 990 at Guidestar was 2004. It lists them as a 501(c) (the form is incomplete with regard to what type, but we presume it is 501(c)(7)?) with $335K in revenues and $349K in expenses. Under "Legitimacy Information," Guidestar says "This organization's exempt status was automatically revoked by the IRS for failure to file a Form 990, 990-EZ, 990-N, or 990-PF for 3 consecutive years. Further investigation and due diligence are warranted.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Your daughter could only get into UTC? That's pretty pitiful. Her 4.0 GPA is equivalent to below a 2.00 at UT Knoxville. Please tell her to take a public speaking course so she can get my order right at McDonalds.

The kid had a free ride, including housing and meals, at all four of the public and private schools where she applied.

She had a top-tier Chancellor's scholarship waiting for her at UTK, too, had she cared to claim it.

She didn't apply to UTK, though. She'd heard it was a "party school" and wasn't interested. That's an unconfirmed rumor, of course...

And she's a senior this year, already working in her field of study, thanks.

Look, the reason you're being beat up about your spelling and grammar and uber confidence as to your ability to carry the rest of the world on your shoulders come May is because your illiterate, foul-mouthed posts here leave you looking a mite unable to contribute much of anything to society just yet.

Maybe that will change as you mature, but you don't seem at all cognizant that you've tried to insult an awful lot of folks here who have already contributed far more to our community than you appear even able to do.

Meanwhile, my interest in your banner has been strictly academic. My only question turns on whether we should conclude that your frat house is public or private property, that's all. You've been no help whatsoever in my investigation of the question and seem to have some difficulty staying on point.

My interest on the topic is waning, so I may or may not care to look in later today to see if you've made any progress in this inquiry. Or if you've chosen to take up the inquiry at all.

South Knox Remembers's picture

Liberals vs. Progressives

You young people wouldn't know a liberal if you met one. The people you are upset with are not liberals. They are progressives. There is a big difference.

Progressives lecture everyone about everything. They think they are the smartest people that ever lived.

This is a progressive:

(link...)

This is a liberal:

(link...)

I'm a liberal. I see why you have problems with the objection to your defending you right to free speech. But don't confuse these people with liberals. They aren't. They are self righteous know it alls and they will take away every right you have if you let them.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Interesting, indeed, Randy.

Guidestar link to this chapter's revoked status here.

So much for their "business acumen," eh?

And if they're banking on their frat memberships to land them those coveted CEO positions in "Fortune 500" companies, the positions may be all the further beyond their grasps, given this informational tidbit?

(Edit: Looks like you'll need to register with the Guidestar site and create a password to access that link. Anybody can.)

metulj's picture

Oh boy

They've been operating as a non-profit, but with a revoked status for 8 years? What's the IRS pay whistleblowers? I am calling first thing Monday morning? They better get cracking on those amended returns (or most likely: returns that were never filed). Like I said, when you go to work at Daddy's insurance agency, the software does it all for you, so let's go to the lake!

redmondkr's picture

Just as their hero, this

Just as their hero, this group don't need no stinkin' fact checkers.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I think the best land use for UT-Knoxville's dirt at 1832 Fraternity Park Drive would be a parking garage.

Factchecker's picture

I wonder what the "2" on the

I wonder what the "2" on the bed sheet means. Is it like "R-squared" because they're smart college kids who know all about fancy exponents?

fischbobber's picture

I think it means

too. (As in also. As in you also get Ryan)

It sounds the same as two so it stands to reason that all things that sound alike are interchangeable. These are college guys you know.

redmondkr's picture

These are college guys you

These are college guys you know.

One would never know it by the spelling and grammar. My neighbor kid, who is thirteen, would be willing to act as a tutor for a modest fee

fischbobber's picture

It's a new age.

Daddy buys your way into school. Your frat brothers tell you who to bribe and who to blackmail. You kiss the ass of those more powerful and you bully and abuse those weaker. We used to call guys like these pussys. Now they call them community leaders.

Pam Strickland's picture

I have spoken to the Dean of

I have spoken to the Dean of Students, who has passed this matter in the the college administration. It seems that there may be a problem because of the lease agreement.

metulj's picture

I was going to send the

I was going to send the attacks on Tamara to my old friend who is the CIO for UT.

metulj's picture

I was going to send the

I was going to send the attacks on Tamara to my old friend who is the CIO for UT.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

I have spoken to the Dean of Students, who has passed this matter in the the college administration. It seems that there may be a problem because of the lease agreement.

Yeah, I thought of doing that on Monday, too, Pam. I would think there's a problem negotiating a lease with an entity that, technically, doesn't exist under the law?

Wonder why UTK didn't require their most recent 990 to extend the lease? Surely it's been extended since any contract negotiated in 2004?

And I'd still like to understand the mechanics of how this "housing corporation" is working with the university to renovate their frat house? It appears that UTK has day-to-day oversight of the project--and possibly some level of liability--and that the "housing corporation" is being tapped for draws of some sort? Or maybe some local bank is also involved, although neither the frat's chapter site nor those UTK docs I posted necessarily indicated such.

I was going to send the attacks on Tamara to my old friend who is the CIO for UT.

It was kinda funny that I was lambasted as a "liberal bitch," when I really didn't post any comment remotely partisan (except those expressing a distaste for "Greeks" that don't know how to make baklava).

In fact, I know one of my earliest posts suggested I didn't think the frat could "endorse" Romney or Obama, either one.

Which "hotline" was that again?

Rachel, I believe he's referring to that website used to register complaints to the university, which Cameron shared in his initial blog post to open this thread? Not positive...

Rachel's picture

Here's my bottom line:I

Here's my bottom line:

I don't care who the SPEs support for President (although I think it's weird that they march in lockstep on it). I'm fine with them having displays of their support.

My question was whether the SPE house was public or private property. If it's state property, displaying a sign supporting any political candidate is probably illegal. There seems to be some question about the status of frat houses, but I'm sure it will get addressed.

Beyond that, this thread has proved that college-age frat guys are just as crude as they were when I was in school. Shouldn't be a big surprise to anybody (although the personal attacks went too far).

Gave me chance to see the term GDI, which I haven't heard in maybe 30 years. :) Turns out my spouse didn't even know what it meant. Guess frats weren't such a big deal at OSU.

Underthebusdem's picture

I lived on campus for many

I lived on campus for many years and worked elections on campus many times. I am also an alumni of a sorority (non-panhellenic) that looked into having a house in the new sorority row. I know a few things about many of the issues being discussed, here. For my sorority to have had a house, we were required to raise money for escrow, raise money to cover the cost of building the house, raise money for maintenance, and raise money for insurance, just for starters. The sorority would own the house and the University would own the land. However, just like with the recent alcohol incident on campus, the university would have had jurisdiction over activities and the sorority could lose the right to live in the house, just as the fraternity did, if the sorority members were involved in a serious enough incident.

In terms of finances, our sorority was looking at millions that had to be raised. Since we are still in the alumni development phase and did not have a lot of connections that could donate the kind of money that we needed in the time frame that we needed, we had no choice but to abandon the idea of having a sorority house on campus.

All of this being said, I am assuming that all of the sororities had to play by the same rules in terms of acquiring and funding their houses. I am also assuming that the fraternities have the same or similar arrangement with the University. So, I am very confident that the fraternity owns the house and I know for a fact, UT owns the land.

The next issue I'd like to address is the idea that signs are not allowed on "state funded property." Every year that I lived in residence halls, I put a sign up for my candidate in my dorm window. Those were always Democrats. However, those who supported Republicans or third parties also displayed signs. One year my roommate and I both put up signs for opposing candidates. I don't know how you can make a blanket statement that signs are not allowed on state property. Also, the UC serves as a voting precinct. Signs are allowed at all other precincts across the city. How and why would signs be banned on campus.

Lastly, I would like to address this photo and the political climate on campus in past elections. I was on campus for the 2000, 2004, and 2008 elections. The 2000 and 2004 elections were absolutely stomach churning for me as a Democrat. In 2000, the bible thumpers were on campus almost non-stop. I was personally attacked on a daily basis over abortion. It was my first experience of "in your face" politics that I came to know quite intimately in East Tennessee. By 2004, "Vols for Bush" stickers and t-shirts emerged on campus. Despite the athletic department saying they were in violation of trademark, nothing was ever enforced to make them go away. It got to the point where almost every fraternity or sorority member I saw had one on them and a roll of Vols for Bush stickers with them at all times and they posted them EVERYWHERE!

In 2004, I was also dumbfounded that people who did not and had not ever attended UT, but went to games every Saturday, thought it within their right to demand that I be removed from campus for wearing a sticker or carrying a sign that supported a Democrat. But, the football fans were not the only ones who were so outraged. The members of Greek organizations thought it appropriate to grab signs out of my hand tear them up in front of me, they thought it appropriate to spit in my face and act completely ridiculous. Girls were walking around with shorts that read "trophy wife for Bush" across their butts. Many sororities and fraternities had W. parties during football games where they enmeshed their politics with their social functions as an organization. It really felt like the majority of the student body, and most especially the well organized and extremely vocal greek organizations, were in a single mindset lockstep for the Republican ticket.

So, this photo does not surprise me. This has been a culture at UT for many years. That sign is ridiculous. It's huge, it's dominating, it's racist, it's in your face, it's over the top and it's offensive to me for many reasons. Yes, I do think complaints should be filed and my hope would be that UT would take some kind action in terms of the size of the sign and in terms of the "vote American" content of the sign. But, I would not go so far as to say they can't display political signs because I want that kid in the dorm who doesn't belong to such an organization to also be able to put a sign in his or her dorm window or on the bumper of his or her car that he or she parks on campus.

There is tremendous work of tolerance that needs to happen at the University of Tennessee. I think UT is probably one of the most conservative campuses in the country and changing the culture, much akin to ending prayer in Neyland Stadium, is going to be a long arduous process that is going to take some brave people, and the right people, standing up for tolerance and it's going to take administrators who are willing to support a culture of tolerance on campus. While I personally like many administrators, I do not see any of them being willing to take that stand.

In terms of the attacks of UT and UT students, I am sick of hearing it from the liberal/progressive elite that post here. You all take every opportunity to trash that university and the students that attend, there. Yet, somehow, it's as though you believe that students at any and every other school are superior in every other way to UT students. The bias is disgusting.

Some of you believe UT is a party school and, what, UT Chattanooga isn't? Do you even know where they administer those surveys? They administer them in the bars, on the strip, and around town. It's not a scientific poll. You will also notice that the top party schools tend to correlate with the football polls. Well, yeah, if the big state U has a top performing football team, then there's going to be a lot of celebrating. That doesn't mean there aren't serious students and it also doesn't mean serious students don't "party" in some fashion.

I don't like the social greek life mentality. I know I'm not alone because the last time I checked only about 15 percent of the UT student body was actually part of a greek organization. Also, I could argue with the fraternity member who said most of the leaders of fortune 500 companies were part of fraternities, that those people also probably have a background that gave them a huge head start to get to where they are. But, despite my own dislike for the greek system, I am most especially tired of and disgusted by the attacks from the contributors of this blog against UT and UT students. I'd say the fraternity members are probably right, the fraternity probably does own the house. I'd say they have some argument for freedom of speech, and, I wish the University would really analyze where freedom of speech ends and domination and harassment begin. I'd also say this forum just shows the level of bias and intolerance all the way around.

bizgrrl's picture

In terms of the attacks of UT

In terms of the attacks of UT and UT students, I am sick of hearing it from the liberal/progressive elite that post here. You all take every opportunity to trash that university and the students that attend, there.
...
I am most especially tired of and disgusted by the attacks from the contributors of this blog against UT and UT students

You wrote a halfway decent post until you had to add the above parts. I think if you'll go back through the posts the majority of "liberal/progressive elite" on this blog do not attack UT or UT students as a whole, just the belligerent frats that posted here.

Rachel's picture

Thanks for a thoughtful and

Thanks for a thoughtful and informative post.

I don't know what the answer is wrt displaying political signs on state property. I hope we find out.

I do support the right of SPE and anyone else to display support for the candidate of their choice. My only question has to do with public property.

I admire you for voting and getting involved. But the sad truth is that most UT students don't. And as I've said on here before, that bugs me personally because I was part of the fight to get students the right to vote in Knox County (until the early 70s the election commission wouldn't register students - it took a class action lawsuit to change that).

That said, I don't think the regulars on KV "take every opportuntity to "trash" the university and its students. The university does come in for a fair amount of criticism, most of it warranted IMO (e.g. over threatening to take an owner-occupied Victorian int he Fort by eminent domain to tear it down). The students, not so much.

South Knox Remembers's picture

"In terms of the attacks of

"In terms of the attacks of UT and UT students, I am sick of hearing it from the liberal/progressive elite that post here. You all take every opportunity to trash that university and the students that attend, there. Yet, somehow, it's as though you believe that students at any and every other school are superior in every other way to UT students. The bias is disgusting."

Yes, well said. But the elitism is misplaced. These Progressives are incompetent as a political party. For example, look at who they list as the Democratic Leaders:

(link...)

Mayor Daniel Brown? Since the Knox Democrats were taken over by the Progressives the Republicans have dominated almost every race except for Madeline's victory, who they still list as Mayor Elect. The reason? Extremism. Just like what you see here.

Now the Progressive extremists, in the middle of an election, want to take away the right to free speech from college voters. How stupid can they be? Not just stupid, wrong. And Monday they will call UT to prove how stupid they are. The first thing UT will ask is if the callers have ever read the Constitution. This is the kind of battle these extremists like to fight. Stupid ones.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Yes, Underthebusdem, I conceded Friday night that it appears I was mistaken to think Fraternity Row's buildings had been built at the university's cost and that the various fraternities then leased them back from UTK.

At that time, I posted a link to KGIS clearly indicating that the land's owner is the university and I posted a link to this "housing corporation" working with the fraternity's chapters fairly indicative that the building's owner is the fraternity itself.

That much we learned pretty early in the conversation.

I went on to muse that I was unsure how this “hybrid” status of the real property’s ownership should be applied to a determination of whether the property is publicly or privately owned and that I was also unsure of how to apply this circumstance of the fraternity’s needing to obtain a charter from the university to that determination, too.

Randy then raised a third uncertainty when he shared his discovery that, under federal tax law, the fraternity has actually ceased to exist at all several years ago!

Before your post, then, these are the three uncertainties that stump me, anyway, in my attempt to classify the property as public or private.

As to why that classification seems to be important in reaching an understanding of whether the fraternity is or is not able to “endorse” a candidate, it has been my own assumption that the university’s consideration in allowing such endorsements would pretty much mirror the considerations our local K-12 public schools have to make.

In that latter context, our local K-12 public schools flat out disallow the posting of such signage and they’ve detailed the prohibition in their written policy.

And again, except in those settings in which a public facility is used as a polling place and except during that narrow time period immediately before and after such an election, no public facility may post any such signage.

I tried to find this prohibition in the election code, to link it here, but I couldn't find the stipulation under Title 2. It must lie elsewhere, then, but I think virtually everybody is aware of it, nevertheless.

I kind of expect, then, that UTK, a public university, has some similar prohibition, even if they find it difficult to enforce with regard to removing every political endorsement in every dorm window.

Hey, I've already been wrong once in this thread, so maybe I'm wrong again.

I did, however, want to more carefully outline for you why I bring these assumptions to this topic.

And please understand that I haven't intended any of my remarks here to be in any way partisan.

I just have a nerdy interest in policy considerations of this sort, which may not even have been Cameron's thrust personally when he first posted this pic.

Shoot, his objection may have centered only on that "vote American" verbiage on the frat's sign, I don't know, but these are the questions the pic raised in my mind.

(So sorry to hear you've been bullied like that on campus. Hold your head high!)

South Knox Remembers's picture

"(So sorry to hear you've

"(So sorry to hear you've been bullied like that on campus. Hold your head high!)"

How are you not a bully? You threatened these young people over a free speech issue.

Did you not read this from Underthebusdem, "But, despite my own dislike for the greek system, I am most especially tired of and disgusted by the attacks from the contributors of this blog against UT and UT students. I'd say the fraternity members are probably right, the fraternity probably does own the house. I'd say they have some argument for freedom of speech, and, I wish the University would really analyze where freedom of speech ends and domination and harassment begin"?

Apologize for being wrong about your threats, not the accuracy of your supposed research.

The GOP has their Tea Party, we have our Progressives. I don't see much difference.

Factchecker's picture

Welcome to the present, Remembers

Maybe some people believe free speech is infringed upon when their tax dollars subsidize any political message. Not to mention bigotry.

"Some people" don't see every action as a political "battle" with a strategy to influence elections. Some things are just right and wrong and need to be dealt with on that basis. Nobody thinks a phone call on Monday will help a certain candidate win or lose on Tuesday. For "others," why is it always about only that?

South Knox Remembers's picture

"Some things are just right

"Some things are just right and wrong and need to be dealt with on that basis."

Do you know how to read? This is about right and wrong. The fraternity is not the school. They have a right to their opinion. No matter how much that opinion may bother you. Threatening them with the IRS and UT is wrong. All of you should be ashamed. A quality you don't have the capacity for. How are you any different than the Tea Party?

metulj's picture

You, as usual, have no idea

You, as usual, have no idea what you are talking about.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

The fraternity is not the school. They have a right to their opinion. No matter how much that opinion may bother you. Threatening them with the IRS and UT is wrong.

If we should find that "the fraternity is not the school," as in "its location should be considered private property," I'm sure everyone here agrees with you that "they have a right to their opinion."

I know I would.

But you can't just say it's private property and make it so.

You're ignoring other considerations that would appear to impact on that determination.

And you're especially dismissive of this consideration that, right this minute, it appears that the fraternity doesn't even exist under the tax law.

Dunno where you're coming from, buddy, but you seem to have some chip on your shoulder totally unrelated to the topic of this thread and I can't guess what it is.

South Knox Remembers's picture

shoot first, ask questions later

"If we should find that "the fraternity is not the school," as in "its location should be considered private property," I'm sure everyone here agrees with you that "they have a right to their opinion."

And what did you do? You harassed and threatened this fraternity before you knew the answers. All of you are an embarrassment. You are no different than the worst of the wingers. Same playbook.

fischbobber's picture

Fraternity Houses

If the fraternity houses were indeed considered private property then butt-chugging could not have been viewed as a legitimate reason for closing down the Pike house. The bottom line is that these houses are governed by their lease agreements and subject to university policy. Finding out how this policy relates to a fraternity's right to hang racially charged banners is a completely legitimate question. As long as tax dollars are subsidizing an activity, the public at large has a right to know what the policy is on any given issue that arises and whether or not the entities involved are within compliance. It has nothing at all to do with the fraternity's obvious poor taste and lack of class, but by them shoving their right to be classless jerks in everyone's face, it certainly would appear that they have escalated the issue.

fischbobber's picture

What I gathered

Is that Southknox wanted to cut down some trees on a hill and he not feels mpc has thwarted him in this effort.

I'm not sure about which hill or what trees however.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

You harassed and threatened this fraternity before you knew the answers.

Starting on Friday evening, within just a few hours of when this thread first opened, I have conceded several times in several posts that info at the site for this "housing corporation" (which I linked personally when the frat boys didn't or couldn't) creates the appearance that the brick and mortar portion of this real property was likely paid for by the frat via that corporation.

Three questions remaining as to whether we should consider the property in its entirety to be private property belonging to the frat are:

1) what is the implication of UTK owning the land on which the building sits?

2) what is the implication of UTK allowing or disallowing this fraternity any charter?

3) what is the implication of the fraternity having lost its legal identity as a 501(c) organization eight years ago?

Why are you harrassing me before YOU know the answers to these questions?

If you have any authoritative info to share that might answer them, great, share it.

If you're just here to badger and insult...some posters may not treat you as kindly as I have.

Unless your any subsequent post offers info that might answer these questions, though, I don't intend to engage you any further.

Factchecker's picture

They have a right to their

They have a right to their opinion. No matter how much that opinion may bother you.

It's in dispute as to how they express that opinion (and their bigotry too). We can debate about which is right and which is wrong, and obviously you want to assert your opinion there with a 9 pound hammer. Why don't you let things play out. Let the crazy progressives look foolish if they get shot down and let the rules be enforced if they're right about how free this display is.

In any event, being a jerk will not win you points for your own views.

South Knox Remembers's picture

"Let the crazy progressives

"Let the crazy progressives look foolish if they get shot down and let the rules be enforced if they're right about how free this display is."

You embarrass the rest of us when you act like the worst of wingers. It was wrong to threaten them with the IRS and UT. I shouldn't care. Knox County Democrats have been made unless by this same leadership. This is my last time as a Democrat. It's time for a Independent Third Party to get away from people like the ones here. Do what you want to. The damage is done.

Rachel's picture

That's about ten posts from

That's about ten posts from you since I asked you politely to identify yourself.

How come you need to hide behind anonymity?

It makes you a lot less credible.

Unless you're that certain someone from Farragut, in which case revealing your identiy would diminish your cred.

Andy Axel's picture

The matter of the President's

The matter of the President's citizenship is not an opinion.

And freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of consequences from said exercise.

'Merica's picture

Pathetic

You grown ass people are letting a bunch of 20 year old Fraternity Men get under your skin.. Pretty pathetic.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Focus

You seem to have missed completely the two foci of commentary in this long-winded conversation, 'Merica.

One focus has been whether this fraterity site should be considered, in its entirety, as a public or private property and, if the former, whether its members therefore enjoy the right to post political signage.

The other focus has been whether, even if the fraternity site should be considered private property, the offensiveness of the signage in question--which implies that a presidential candidate is not an American--should result in disclipinary action against the fraternity from either the university or the fraternity's parent organization.

The fact that you and the other "young men" to have popped up here offering profane and illiterate arguments for your action that aren't even the foci of this discussion is frustrating, but it isn't the reason the conversation continues.

The conversation continues because the questions raised within it haven't yet been resolved.

I do agree that there's not much point in continuing it on a Sunday afternoon--since it's unlikely these questions might be answered before Monday--so personally, I'm content to just check in here again at that point.

But if you should care to do the same, do understand the foci of the conversation to be resumed then.

redmondkr's picture

I Voted American!

Made in the U.S.A.

Dixie Belle's picture

F*** You bitch

Regardless of the ownershp/FIRST AMENDMENT(ALL CAPS INTENTIONAL) issues, can I just say that the violence implied in the responses by the fraternity members is more than a bit disturbing? "Suck it Tamara", "Fuck you bitch" etc...Do these fraternity supporters understand that they seem to be verbally threatening to exert sexual violence on a wife, mother and caring community activist, and why are their implied statements of sexual violence being tolerated/ignored on this thread?

Am left assuming they address the women in their own lives this way, and if so, they are some messed up and diseased boys.

R. Neal's picture

You should see some of the

You should see some of the stuff that has been removed!

metulj's picture

Any 160.36.x.x or 216.96.x.x

Any 160.36.x.x or 216.96.x.x IP blocks on those posts. We can send them along to UT. Oops. Time to call the IRS too. Seems you get a tidy part of that take.

TJbias's picture

How do you people sleep at

How do you people sleep at night? I hope you take great pride in your little "whistleblower" award. Tell your kids how you told on a bunch of 20 year guys today. How your have to be the coolest parent ever. Then continue on your day carrying all your insecurities you progressives have continuously flaunted throughout these post. Keep attacking us. WE DON'T CARE!

- VOTE AMERICAN

metulj's picture

Like a boss, son, like a

Like a boss, son, like a boss.

Hildegard's picture

I took up for the kids and

I took up for the kids and thought they should let the whole thing go until that one anonymous misbegotten cracker had to be so rude to Tamara. I mean it's pretty bad ass to sit in your frat house on a Friday night trolling middle aged women with rape slang when you can't get a date. But at this point I've got no sympathy and no benefit of doubt left for guys who live in the culture that invented the literal version of teabagging so they could find social acceptance through pledging; it's no wonder they find inspiration in its figurative political context. And by the way here's an edit of the above:

Starting in the fourth sentence (dropping the How makes it a sentence, not a phrase): "You have to be the coolest parents ever. So carry on with your day and all the insecurities all you progressives have made so transparently obvious throughout this thread." The rest of it was OK but all caps is kind of juvenile. I don't know why people keep using them.

cafkia's picture

Wow, I followed this thread

Wow, I followed this thread from the beginning and WOW is about all I have to say. I have never seen such a bunch of whinny-assed titty babies as the frat boys and their supporters since I quit watching pro sports. Any ANY call to have them follow the laws of the nation they allege to love results in attacks from them. ANY conversation about whether or not laws are being broken, results in attacks from them. Even an alleged progressive seems to believe that the frat boys should be able to ignore some laws as long as they are expressing an opinion. Cap that off with the complete inability of the (assumed?/alleged?) frat boys to communicate in any semblance of college level English and you get a picture of what is killing the nation. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE. On top of all of that, they seem to never have gotten that little civics lesson about yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. They feel a little to comfortable with verbal abuse for my tastes.

I voted American. I did not vote for the anti-American, vulture capitalist class. I especially did not vote to continue the promulgation of idiot frat boys. (But then, I have an actual record of doing good for my nation.)

redmondkr's picture

It struck me as like you know

It struck me as like you know funny that you know children today can't even like order a pizza without like the use of the word like several times but like it hasn't appeared in these comments. Is it a you know like laziness in verbal conversation that like disappears in the like written version because it's like you know a real pain in the ass to insert like every third word?

TJbias's picture

"America is at war, and

"America is at war, and doesn’t even know it. Americans have been indoctrinated by our public education system and the progressive mainstream media to accept progressive ideas as valid, and part of the American Way. They are not. They are diametrically opposed to the Constitutional Republic established by our Founding Fathers. Right-left politics are bad enough. But this is much, much worse than that. Liberal progressives – this does not include liberals – hate capitalism, property rights, your liberty, and everything else that made America the greatest nation in the history of the world. There is no such thing as compromise in the progressive ideology. Progressives may seem to compromise, but it is an illusion. It is merely part of their strategy to eventually win. Those steeped in the ideology are convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Progressives are generally nice people – as long as you agree with them. However, they have succeeded for decades by relentlessly lying, intimidating, bullying, mocking, demonizing, and even destroying anyone or anything that stands in their way. Their strategy is based on “the end justifies the means,” including class warfare. Progressives constantly accuse everyone else of hatred and bigotry in order to hide in plain sight their own hatred and bigotry that is usually far worse than those they accuse. They admit amongst themselves that they are at war with the American legal system and tradition so they can implement their utopian ideals using the Soviet model of governance. Progressive ideology infects both political parties that manifest itself in different ways. Progressive ideology has given America a deeply divided nation that is $15 plus trillion in debt with another $116 trillion unfunded liability that can never be paid. Worse, progressive liberals believe debt is irrelevant so they constantly fight every effort to reign in our debt. For over a hundred years progressives in both political parties have been manipulated by a global elite to systematically undermined America’s Constitutional foundation in order to create a world government. Although things may seem to be as they always have been, that is a deliberately created mirage. Americans can’t see it because our public education and the progressive media has slowly but systematically indoctrinated us for a hundred years to accept the progressive version of reality. Liberty in America as established by our Founders is in its death throes. The current “solutions” to our economic woes and high unemployment are actually making America’s economy worse because they are based on an ideology that has always failed. Worse, America’s moral fabric is being shredded as Christianity and Judaism are systematically extinguished. America is in moral free-fall that is increasingly narcissistic, bigoted and hate-filled, demanding things that tear down rather than builds civilization. Plundered details how this progressive agenda has slowly but systematically strangled this great nation. It details who, why and how it is being done. Early psychiatrists in the 19th century were even then sounding the alarm. Progressivism is a cancer. It is part of a global agenda that is destroying America. It is evil. The November elections are perhaps the last, best hope of beginning to eliminate this cancer and the disaster it has created."
Michael Coffman,Ph.D.

- Maybe someone with a Ph.D. can state what we are trying to say better than we can. Since we obviously are uneducated and useless to society. As you all have repeatedly stated. Not that you will listen anyways.
- By the way, you made me buy the book because I want to do all I can to stop the negative effects of what you (progressives) are doing to what I love. America.
- YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
- VOTE AMERICAN

Somebody's picture

Straw man

Please look up the term "straw man." It might help you understand why the quote from Coffman above isn't really an explanation for much of anything.

R. Neal's picture

Nearly every statement in

Nearly every statement in that screed is demonstrably wrong and 180 degrees from the truth.

P.S. Ask your English professor about sentence fragments.

SPEAK AMERICAN!

metulj's picture

For over a hundred years

For over a hundred years progressives in both political parties have been manipulated by a global elite to systematically undermined America’s Constitutional foundation in order to create a world government.

racist punk/THE JEWS ARE BEHIND IT ALL!/racist punk

For those who don't watch the fringe right wing, Coffman is a regular on Alex Jones' shows and does things like cite research that contradicts his arguments and goes on about the Bilderburgers and what not.

TJbias's picture

"Progressives may seem to

"Progressives may seem to compromise, but it is an illusion. It is merely part of their strategy to eventually win. Those steeped in the ideology are convinced that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Progressives are generally nice people – as long as you agree with them. However, they have succeeded for decades by relentlessly lying, intimidating, bullying, mocking, demonizing, and even destroying anyone or anything that stands in their way. Their strategy is based on “the end justifies the means,” including class warfare. Progressives constantly accuse everyone else of hatred and bigotry in order to hide in plain sight their own hatred and bigotry that is usually far worse than those they accuse. They admit amongst themselves that they are at war with the American legal system and tradition so they can implement their utopian ideals using the Soviet model of governance."

- Shortened version for those progressives who do not want to read my entire post. It will only do you good to read this part twice anyways.
- YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
- VOTE AMERICAN

metulj's picture

Man, Beria would have loved

Man, Beria would have loved you.

Dave Prince's picture

I just want MAH SKEWL back!

I just want MAH SKEWL back!

TJbias's picture

The quote is quite accurate

The quote is quite accurate and my no means shows any informal fallacy based upon misrepresentation.
- YOU ARE THE PROBLEM
- VOTE AMERICAN

Rachel's picture

The quote is quite accurate

The quote is quite accurate and my no means shows any informal fallacy based upon misrepresentation.

I'm not trying to be snarky; I truly don't understand what this says. I'm assuming you meant "by" rather than "my" but even with that, it makes no sense.

Can you translate "by no means shows any informal fallacy based on misrepresentation"?

Of course, it may just be that I don't have the intellectual capacity to understand it. :) Still, help a girl out.

Somebody's picture

What it means is he actually

What it means is he actually googled the term "straw man," read the first sentence of the wikipedia entry for the term, didn't understand what it means and came back with the rhetorical equivalent of "nuh uh!"

To the fine fraternity member: Great job for taking the challenge (sort of), and at least briefly looking up the term. I'll give you a C for effort. You don't pass the reading comprehension part, though.

Rachel's picture

What it means is he actually

What it means is he actually googled the term "straw man," read the first sentence of the wikipedia entry for the term, didn't understand what it means and came back with the rhetorical equivalent of "nuh uh!"

Oh, I see. That's hilarious.

TJbias's picture

R. Neal, We get it you are so

R. Neal,

We get it you are so much smarter than we are.
- "However, they have succeeded for decades by relentlessly lying, intimidating, bullying, mocking, demonizing, and even destroying anyone or anything that stands in their way."

Min's picture

You know...

...that quote describes the modern ultra-right conservative movement to a T.

Perhaps someone is projecting a bit.

Average Guy's picture

You're confused

Instead of "intimidating", you maybe meant "imitating"? ; (link...)

When a Party throws up potential candidates like Cain, Trump and Palin, there is no need for any of what you cite. These people do themselves in with their own words, no help from "they" is necessary.

EricLykins's picture

I like it when they call us

I like it when they call us pussies and then cry about our bullying in the very next breath.

metulj's picture

These are the same guys who

These are the same guys who say things like "You are giving me a C in your class, Professor Smith. I can't get into law school with a C in your class. Why won't you just give me a B?" Then they sue the University to change their grades.

Rachel's picture

Omg, how do you stand it? I

Omg, how do you stand it? I taught at LMU for two years and the whining about grades, especially from athletes, drove me crazy.

One guy had the basketball coach call me - two weeks before the end of classes - because he was failing my class. He had a 38 average with two weeks to go - what the heck was I supposed to do about that?

I loved teaching. Except for that part.

cafkia's picture

what the heck was I supposed

what the heck was I supposed to do about that?

Explain that you did not give grades, that you merely reported what grade the student earned. (optionally followed by a strong suggestion that their next step should involve any of several modes of auto-intercourse)

Rachel's picture

Explain that you did not give

Explain that you did not give grades, that you merely reported what grade the student earned

Which is what I did, of course. Which was followed by a call from the dean of students pressuring me to change the grade.

Which I didn't. Which may be one reason my contract wasn't renewed for a third year.

redmondkr's picture

Maybe someone with a Ph.D.

Maybe someone with a Ph.D. can state what we are trying to say better than we can.

Try this Ph.D

TJbias's picture

Was I supposed use an

Was I supposed use an encyclopedia? Yes I googled it, then posted that I did bot agree. My stance has not changed. I also get how much smarter you guys are than me. As you have all pointed out, I am just a dumb frat boy remember.

Somebody's picture

Googling is fine. Reading

Googling is fine. Reading comprehension is more important.

I googled your Coffman guy, for instance, and I was able to quickly discern that he's a conspiracy theorist. Conspiracy theorists either don't understand the rules of logic, or they do, and intentionally misuse them in order to convince others of things that are not true.

As a student, you would do well to steer clear of the conspiracy theorists and their goofy circular arguments. That stuff is great for feeling you're accepted by the others who buy into it, but the rest of the world will write you off as someone to avoid.

TJbias's picture

To* Not* Don't attack me

To*
Not*
Don't attack me please

Tess's picture

Doubt

Students don't have time for this stuff. Prolly dealing with some beer bellied, middle-aged tea party supporter.

R. Neal's picture

Students don't have time for

Students don't have time for this stuff. Prolly dealing with some beer bellied, middle-aged tea party supporter.

Nope. Beer-bellied, maybe. Middle-aged probably not. Unless UT is renting out space and/or bandwidth to hobos.

Tess's picture

or former students/staff/profs

UT provides internet space to current and retired staff of all levels (former students, staff, professors) as well as current folks if that is what you mean. When you graduate or retire, you keep your UT email address.

R. Neal's picture

Not your IP address.

Not your IP address.

metulj's picture

Message me the reverse

Message me the reverse lookup. Dorms?

R. Neal's picture

Resnet.

Resnet.

metulj's picture

Dipshits. All of that traffic

Dipshits. All of that traffic is heavily monitored. We used to put every distinct HTTP connect into a database. And yes, they agreed to it. I always ran Tor on that network.

metulj's picture

Uh, UTK does not offer access

Uh, UTK does not offer access to its network without affiliation and documentation. Retired professors may still have email addresses, but staff who leave and, especially, students who leave get cut off cold. I just lost mine email address, which I had for 19 years because I left UTK ..... Praise Cthulu .... I no longer work there.

Tess's picture

*

Don't know, I communicate with alums at their UT email address. Think it is a new perk of being an alum.

metulj's picture

Not run by UTK if it is.

Not run by UTK if it is. Probably an outside contractor. OIT management was very against it for very good reasons.

jmcnair's picture

Volmail

Students now get Volmail accounts, netID@utk.edu, that are hosted on Microsoft's Live.edu and last "indefinitely."

(They will get dumped from LDAP/Active Directory after a year, so it's an email address-only service.)

Tess's picture

*

Thanks!

metulj's picture

What a racket.

What a racket.

fischbobber's picture

A quote

"Fascinating, Captain."- Mr. Spock

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Folks, I'm feeling a bit remiss for having failed to put a lid on this can of worms I opened (the question of whether this frat's facility should be considered public or private and, either way, what its status means WRT "endorsing" candidates), but I haven't had time to make any further inquiry into it.

Frankly, I don't really know how to investigate the question further. You'll remember that I phoned the Chancellor's office last Friday to ask about it, but the woman I spoke with didn't know the answer and seemed not to be very certain who she should ask. I didn't leave my name and number with her, so I'm not expecting her to follow up with me...

Anyway, it's shaping up to be another busy day here, so I don't know that I'll find time today, either.

Then too, it hasn't escaped my notice that just everybody here hasn't shared my curiousity on the subject.

Still, I'd like to confirm one way or the other if my question is relevant.

I'll try to do that sometime soon.

(Over and out, at least until late afternoon.)

Somebody's picture

I'd let it go.

Frankly, I don't think the sign is a big deal one way or the other. Lots of people get worked up over political signs during election season, but the signs really don't matter much. They largely disappear after election day (though it would be good if campaign enthusiasts were a little better about cleaning up after it's over...). Their purpose is mostly self-affirmation for the people putting up the signs, anyway, particularly in national elections. I don't know if anyone has ever done a serious study to see if campaign signs sway votes, but I would postulate that the effect is minimal at best, and that the perennial rancor and squabbles over signs going up or being torn down isn't warranted.

That said, the thing that is far more worrisome to me is the quality of the apparent representation by the fraternity in the squabbles over their sign here. Their belligerence, foul language, poor grammar, reliance on bogus sources of information and seemingly poor skills at reading comprehension and comprehensible argumentation all suggest that the people living behind that sign are not good students. Like it or not, these guys are the next generation. To be fair, the loudmouths probably don't represent even everybody in that fraternity, much less their entire generation, but whoever they do represent, they don't represent them well.

metulj's picture

The next generation includes

The next generation includes the kids who Tess works with in her office at UT. There are lots of them who are smart, forthright, self-disciplined, and caring. Lots.

I taught both sets while I was at UTK. These kids Tess mentions made above average grades and rarely complained. Many of the them are women and know the stakes. Our friends trolling usually chose easy "default" majors or squeaked by in more difficult majors by "working the system." These are the kids whose parents call asking for grade changes. Thank God for FERPA.

All in all though, the lottery scholarship has improved the quality of the UT students from within state and I think the school is a better place because of that. Still, I don't know what UT's legacy admissions policy is, but there are piles of kids who really shouldn't be at university who attend there because, well, that's what you do. I've always wondered how they even got in given the much higher admissions bar wrt the lottery scholarships. UT is just now coming around to being a selective school in the model of UNC-CH or UVa or, even, Georgia.

American Dreamer's picture

Speaking of chips...

Let me start by saying this.. Hooray for the people that painted a mural of Obama at a polling station in Philly.. Hooray for the SPES that hung that Romney-Ryan banner. Voter enthusiasm is going up and that is what this country needs. I voted for the Romney-Ryan ticket. I did it for many reasons. One thing I have noticed while watching liberals and conservatives debate is the level of integrity in each argument. Notice how there are two different views being spewed across the Daily news.. Are both of them right? Are the real facts being put out? I have to say no.. But don't listen to me.. I'm just a retired college kid making bank in the real world because I hit the ground running.. Finished school.. Left people alone.. Voiced my opinion when it mattered.. And didn't waste my time being a stooge for a make believe movement.. Fact of the matter is.. Liberalism doesn't work in the fiscal world.. It never did and it never will.. Keep that in mind when you vote.. And stop whining a out a sign put up by somebody who has a voice.. I remember when liberals were selling "F-Bush" hats at the University Center 4 years ago.. Who cares... I also remember funny little disappoint-mints with Obama's face on them being sold in the University Center.. Only difference is Democrstic state senators had the mints removed for the same reason the person who is wanting this banner removed.. Can't have it both ways.. Why not just support free speech and move on... Go America.. And GOD bless the USA

American Dreamer's picture

Public vs Private property

University owns the land.. Most fraternity houses are privately owned. The SPE house is privately owned.. But since the University owns the land.. They have access to the property.. What is hanging from the building is out of their control unless it is offensive.. But don't tell me a presidential candidate's election banner is offensive..

Rachel's picture

I think what some of us found

I think what some of us found offensive was the "Vote American" part, which implied that voting for someone other than Romney was unAmerican. As several of the frat brothers have repeated in this thread.

Although offensive doesn't mean that the sign should come down. It just means it's ok for folks to criticize what it says.

And I'm with Tamara. My real interest is whether or not this is public property. If it's state property, hanging political banners might not be legal. The state owns the dirt, frat owns the house situation complicates that.

I'm just curious; it's an answer I'd like to have for future reference.

American Dreamer's picture

Banner

I take "Vote American" as vote for somebody who values this country and will do what's best for the country. I can't speak for what the creator of the banner meant by it, but being offended my it seems childish.. To file a complaint about it seems foolish.. And talking about it this long is a huge waste of time.. Maybe we should talk about the material being taught by some of the professors that weighed in on this discussion..

Annoy a Liberal- Work, Succeed, Be happy's picture

Vote American

Dear Rachel,

Congratulations, you are the epitome of an Obama supporter. Typical, a group of liberals complaining about the unimportant issues in our country through a blog on the internet. You are arguing with a bunch of young and immature college students. I'm sure you are getting off to this whole conversation, which leads me to believe that your "daddy" didn't love you.

P.S. I hate you.

Sincerely,

Mr. Right

Rachel's picture

Hmmm. I could say you're the

Hmmm. I could say you're the epitome of a right-wing Republican - hating someone you've never even met and courageous enough to say so on the internet anonymously. And goofy enough to follow that with a "sincerely."

R. Neal's picture

Hey, Mr. "Right:" You are out

Hey, Mr. "Right:" You are out of line, like the rest of your chucklehead pals. Y'all beat it.

Treehouse's picture

Money money money money

"Fact of the matter is.. Liberalism doesn't work in the fiscal world.. It never did and it never will.. Keep that in mind when you vote.. "

So money is your only reality? The costs of a thing determines its value? That must be why corporations are ruling the world these days and profit is God. In my liberal world, people are valuable, the arts are valuable, food shouldn't be just for the wealthy, etc.

So when I vote, I vote for my own self interest including my job and how money is spent in my community but I also vote for the poor, the disenfranchised, and the hurting, because I think they count although they don't work in your "fiscal world."

May you never be hungry, cold, disabled or poor.

American Dreamer's picture

Could you be more ignorant?

It's funny that you would bring "corporations" into this little debate. I work for a corporation. I vote strongly on economic issues. I do not flaunt my religion(Catholic), but I do love my life by its principals. The problem with your way of thinking is that you actually believe that corporations are evil and anti-poor. Corporations are made up of people. I'm not going to get into the tax laws, etc... But they operate as a united group of people working together to make a profit. Why? It's simple. The more profitable the corporation is the more money the employees make. The more money the employees make the better off the community is. Communities with a healthy employment ratio are able to support the poorer sections in that community. Charities are more capable when people have money to give. Liberals think government exists to support the people it governs.. Conservatives recognize government for what it is. It exists to protect the people. So when you vote.. Corporations are not the problem. My corporation alone donated tens of thousands of dollars to charity this year with no help from government. I alone donated a relatively large sum because I do believe in helping the needy. My church will house, feed, and care for anybody that needs it. My church will not give them a cell phone, a debit card, and a weekly check. I think liberal arts have their merits.. But overall I think in this election.. Painting/poetry can be pushed down a tier.. And the health of the nation should come first. Starting with a balanced budget. What do I know? I'm just an Econ grad.

Nice chat.. Gotta run ..

Dixie Belle's picture

How much further do they have to go?

One of the things I have noticed about the supporters of the fraternity (or fraternity members themselves, only SKB probably knows) is that they react very strongly and aggressively to the two leading women posters on this thread, not so much the men. I don't believe a one of 'em has has tried "fuck you", "suck it" or "I hate you" with any of the male posters who also have questions. Is this how they were raised? If their parents read their comments, would they be proud?

Rachel's picture

Guess I'll never be a

Guess I'll never be a sweetheart of Sigma Chi.

So sad.

metulj's picture

Another baboon flinging poo

Another baboon flinging poo in the zoo who does not know what the Bill of Rights do.

Pam Strickland's picture

UTK response

Thank you for your Bias Incident Report. The Bias Response Team met today to address the issue you reported. The issue was addressed by contacting the student organization displaying the banner outside of the fraternity house. The organization was informed of your concerns about the content of the banner.
 
Historically, the university has not regulated the placement of banners displayed on fraternity houses unless the banner was believed to be in violation of governing law, contract, or university rule. The placement of the banner in this case did not violate any law, contract or policy, therefore, the fraternity was allowed to continue displaying the banner. The fraternity voluntarily decided to eliminate the wording “Vote American” and continued to exhibit the banner.
 
Political expression is protected by the First Amendment.  As stated in the university student handbook, Hilltopics, the university encourages freedom of inquiry and discussion, and recognizes the rights of students to participate in discussion and exchange of ideas and opinions and to speak freely on any subject in accord with the guarantees of our state and national constitutions.
 
Sincerely,
 
Maxine T. Davis, Ed.D.
Dean of Students
University of Tennessee
413 Student Services Bldg.
Knoxville, TN 37996-0248
865-974-3179 (Office)
865-974-0088 (FAX)
mthomps2@utk.edu 
 

jmcnair's picture

Win.

"The fraternity voluntarily decided to eliminate the wording “Vote American” and continued to exhibit the banner."

Small, late victory. But that's a win.

As a student I know I would have been upset with any ruling that said I couldn't support my candidate with a sign on my dorm room - this is essentially the same thing writ large. The "American" and its "not the non-American" implication that was offensive to me.

R. Neal's picture

Small, late victory. But

Small, late victory. But that's a win.

Yes!

R. Neal's picture

Thanks for the follow up and

Thanks, Pam, for the follow up and the report. Seems like a reasonable response.

It appears, though, they are defending some of the "exchange of ideas" expressed here, but perhaps that is beyond the scope of their inquiry.

Pam Strickland's picture

I only addressed the banner

I only addressed the banner and the "Vote American" in particular in my complaint. I believe there were other complaints also. I did not reference the conversation hear, although it would be interesting to know about the incorporation.

Rachel's picture

I'm cool with this. Just

I'm cool with this. Just wanted to know what the rules were.

And good for the SPEs changing the banner.

metulj's picture

I guess they didn't back down

I guess they didn't back down like the Germans at Pearl Harbor.

redmondkr's picture

I've a feeling their

I've a feeling their sweetheart has an inflation port.

Rachel's picture

inflation port.

Ok, THAT'S funny.

metulj's picture

There's a Justin Bieber blow

There's a Justin Bieber blow up doll on the market. Should we drop ship a pallet to them?

jmcnair's picture

Fail.

"Why? It's simple. The more profitable the corporation is the more money the employees make."

Maybe on your planet.

EricLykins's picture

Economics is dead. Love live marketing.

Experienced economist and not so experienced economist are walking down the road. They come across a pile of horse manure lying on the asphalt.

Experienced economist: "If you eat it I'll give you $20,000!"
Not so experienced economist runs his optimization problem and figures out he's better off eating it so he does and collects money.
Continuing along the same road they come across another pile of horse manure.
Not so experienced economist: "Now, if YOU eat this I’ll give YOU $20,000."
After evaluating the proposal experienced economist eats it and collects the money.
They go on. The not so experienced economist starts thinking: "Listen, we both have the same amount of money we had before, but we both ate horse manure. I don't see us being better off."
The experienced economist replies "Well, that's true, but you overlooked the fact that we've been just involved in $40,000 of trade."

Factchecker's picture

Don't let the door hit you...

Bye. I rarely read posts that are half that long. And didn't this one.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

*

Yes, thanks for sharing the university's response, Pam.

I will point out, though, that Dr. Davis' blanket assertion that "political expression is protected by the First Amendment" is one all of us surely know to be true only conditionally.

Through the years I lived as a tenant in rental property, my own freedom of political expression was often thwarted by prohibitions against political signage that were a part of my various leases .

Even when I became a homeowner, my freedom of political expression was thwarted in my first home, a condominium, by prohibitions against political signage that were covenants of my homeowners’ association contract (which I was bound to enter into in order to purchase the home).

I have also shared with you the written policy prohibiting political signage in our local K-12 public schools and you are already aware, I expect, that our former president was successful in establishing during his administration the "free speech zones" that allowed him to travel freely without being “visually accosted” by protestors.

I don’t fully understand, then, under what circumstances our freedom of political expression may be restricted, I suspect many of you may not either, and I feel certain that these fraternity brothers don’t.

I’m therefore thinking that the operative clause in Dr. Davis’ response is the one indicating that “historically, the university has not regulated the placement of banners displayed on fraternity houses.” I note she says “has not,” not “can not” and that she cites as a rationale for this position that “the university encourages freedom of inquiry and discussion.”

So be it—but the remainder of the rationale she cites referencing “guarantees of our state and national constitutions” we should know from both personal experience and casual observation to be subject to many caveats.

Meanwhile, I'm glad they chose to drop the offensive "vote American" verbiage, too.

Stick a fork in me--I’m done.

Tamara Shepherd's picture

Post script:

The more profitable the corporation is the more money the employees make.

Hence the poor sap's handle, "American Dreamer."

Fabricant's picture

...the rate of profits does

...the rate of profits does not, like rent and wages, rise with the prosperity, and fall with the declension, of society. On the contrary, it is naturally low in rich, and high in poor countries, and it is always highest in the countries which are going fastest to ruin...

Karl Marx - Capital

oops, I mean

Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations

Sorry, I wasn't an econ major.

Andy Axel's picture

Scream into your pillows,

Scream into your pillows, SPEs.

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