But in my opinion the City of Knoxville has become a mark for business that can extract funds from the city, given its limited government role in the community (police, fire, some parks and roads)and its propensity to throw money around to try and look/act like a major southern city. They have already provided a $10 million TIF to keep the property taxes down as the project rolls up and now they are being asked to provide $1.5 million in improvements that most businesses/developers provide themselves where the roads/infrastructure will not be turned over to the city. By chiseling the request down to $1.5 million, the perception is that the City of Knoxville does't want to be the one to kill the project, when in reality the project and the development itself should stand on the capability and the financial strength of the developer and the involved tenants.

Such municipal charity for the national business community is always suspect and tends to operate unfairly against the local (usually smaller) business owner who has received no public assistance from the city and now must compete against publicly subsidized national retails. This is Wal-Mart and Publix, but downtown you've got UrbanOutfitters and those ecclectic shops and boutiques on Market Square Mall should not have to compete against a national retailer and their marketing/volume largess while they are being supported by the local government.

The proper role of governemnt is to get out of the way of business and industry such that they can get busy, put people to work, and engage themselves in commerce driving revenue and filling the tax coffers of the local community. The proper role of government is not to incentivize large national corporations who generate as much money in a day as the city of Knoxville will collect in a year's worth of property/sales taxes.

I'd vote no, but I'm not sure City Council has the stones to put these developers in their place and make them put their projects togather without repetitive public assistance.

Thanks, Pam. I have not been a 'Walmart shopper' since I learned about their employment policies, how they discriminate against women, several years ago. At one time, here in TN, Walmart did not provide health insurance, forced women to be 'part-time' so they could only get insurance they could afford was by applying for TNCare...not sure that policy is still in effect. The quality of their goods and services is dismal, most of it made overseas.
If companies, such as a global entity like Walmart,has to be bribed to come to downtown, this should not be allowed, especially when they out-source millions of their 'good' jobs overseas.

Re: the Mayor and Wal-Mart (I still use the old style spelling because I lived and worked in Arkansas for 21 years when that was the way they spelled it). I know what I experienced. I was working the booth. It would have been before 2008, but probably after 2005. I could probably narrow it down with a little bit more footwork because I, personally, have only been to Vestival twice. I didn't see the need to ask the mayor if she remembered it, because I witnessed it. She doesn't say it didn't happen, just that she doesn't remember it. A classic politician's nondenial denial. And I stand by what I saw.

And Flory, who is supposed to be and objective business news reporter and editor is right that I was sharply critical of Wal-Mart. Frankly, I don't think I was critical enough. I didn't specify how they have ruined small town America. Or how they are infamous for leaving empty stores when they build new, bigger stores down they road thus causing their own form of urban blight. I didn't get into how their orders can make or break even big companies, such as Rubbermaid. I left most of that to the LA Times Pulitzer-prize winning series.

I've wanted to write about this previously, but something else always seemed more important. When the developers came back for yet more money, that was the end of my rope. They shouldn't be asking for public money to put together a retail deal. Fine, federal incentives for the brownfields, but that's it. They live in this community. They should be contributing to it, not sucking it dry.

I wonder if possibly Pam's and Randy's objections might have been answered--and the City's goals met, too--had some third party connected these developers to a coalition of smaller local/regional retailers potentially interested in the site.

It's a shame the City has no such third party.

This burg could do with a Chamber of Commerce...

In my opinion, this is probably the same development group that needed former Mayor Haslam's multimillion dollar personal guaranty to get the NorthShore Town Centre site secured and get the Publix and Target rolling and now they don't want to incur the costs to build out the infrastructure to get cars and truck in and out of the Publix/WalMart site.

I am not persuaded by Dr. Lyon's often utilized language and municipal buzzwords regarding redevelopment of a brownfield site for two national retailers and extremely well healed local developers. If this were redevelopment for a local business or redevelopment for an employer which would provide meaningful jobs, benefits, pay packages, and potential careers for the citizens of the community, I would be much more persuaded. But to help those non breathing beheamoths who need the financial help the absolute least is completely irresponsible government and I hate to see the Rojero administration rolling over to more developers (we didn't think that would happen this time) caving in to national retailers (we expected the focus on local businesses, not national retailers)and publicly subsidizing the development for two national retailers notorious for non-union sentiment and employment practices and payment of absurdly low wages, without appreciable benefits or competitive compensation practices. We were of the opinion that Mayor Rojero was much more principled than to again fall into that "development" trap using public money to enrich private enterprises and national retailers.

Since most of these jobs will be filled with university students and potentially providing some insight into the national retail landscape for certain students, the request for infrastructure improvements should be directed to the University of Tennessee, but the City of Knoxville is so predisposed to throw the public's money around all in the name of "development", it's just way too easy to keep knocking on the 6th floor door. In my opinion, anything other than a brisk HELL NO from Mayor Rojero and Dr. Lyons is a precursor to continued irrelevancy and a spineless abstention of sound government principles all for the sake of further enriching the same old local developers and their national retailers.

These are national retailers who don't advertise in the Knoxville News Sentinel, but do place circulars in the newspapers at a pretty penny for the newspaper heads to deliver to their remaining subscribers. Don't think there will be any meaningful examination of this issue, particularly since the $10 million TIF was barely mentioned.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

One of Pam's best.

Great discussion.

One aspect of the development that has thus far been left unsaid is its proximity to the greenway. That is not only a plus, but opens the door for a variety of greenway uses requiring a "refuel" spot.

Knoxville citizens are lucky to have representatives willing to explain said positions.

Communities should perform due diligence, but I can't help but wonder how a community like Scott County would view this conversation.

My main concern is how this development will work with the restructuring of Cumberland, and what the plans are to avoid massive congestion.

Knoxville has always seemed to have a problem with 4 lanes narrowing to 2 too soon, and a back up quickly and easily ensues.

Other than that, as a citizen I am in favor of this plan.

I think the idea that "local retailers" could do something with this site, is wishful thinking.

Common sense would tell us that local retailers don't really have the wherewithal to make this work.

As far as Strickland's opinions go, I don't think you can associate all the problems she lists with the growth of Walmart.

Walmart by itself "ruined" small town America?

Walmart alone leaves empty store when they build new ones? No other businesses do?

Please.

Don't let ideology override common sense and what is in the best interests of the community and city.

I was not originally for this development, but I think it is the best opportunity we've had in a long time to do something productive with it.

There are plenty of mom and pops and out of work US factory workers who regularly go to WalMart to buy its Chinese goods.

Instead of protesting and picketing outside WalMart on Nov. 6th, many in our area will go vote for the guy who helped create the problem.

Know who you’re mad at.

It's the City of Knoxville's preference for extending its financial support to national corporations and well healed developers who need the financial support the least.

The city yearns for sales tax revenue, for what, to plow into another development enriching national retailers and the same old local developers.

The City of Knoxville's focus is fully misplaced on national retailers, not the local guys at all. Mayor Burchette recently embarked upon a "cash mob" promotion to focus on the small local businesses in Knoxville and Knox County. No effort to direct the county's support towards Urban Outfitters, Publix, nor Wal-Mart.

The city of Knoxville should direct its financial support and priority accordingly.

Nick Della Volpe weighs in on the City Council forum:

University Commons Comes A'beggin''

FLATBACKIN FOR BROCCOLI
(with a reply from Nick Pavlis)

(Had to look up "flatbackin" in the slang dictionary. It's not very flattering.)

The issues involved in redeveloping this piece of property are so site specific I'm not sure there was going to be a solution that would make everyone happy. I would not look to the stores to be record performers for their companies, but rather steady performers. I'm not a big fan of Wal-Mart but sometimes, if all you have is a hammer, then everything is a nail. You do what you can with what you've got.

if the folks in South Knoxville are having to drive so far for groceries, then why don't they get somebody to build a grocery store in South Knoxville instead of on campus? That store would be within, what, I'm bad with mileage estimates, five miles of four other grocery stores--Fresh Market, Earth Fare, Kroger, Food City on Kingston Pike. And that's not counting the markets on Sutherland. And then probably within five miles north to the Fellini Kroger and the co-op.

So where they need a grocery is South Knoxville, right? I confess, I've not been out Chapman recently, but there's a Kroger and a Food City, right? And a Wal-Mart?

OK, so where they need a grocery is Alcoa Hwy and Chapman, not on campus. Pavlis is touting the need for a grocery store because the folks out where he lives have to drive, what did he say, nine miles, does this really help?

There was a Food city on Alcoa across from Courtsouth that closed within the last year. So yes, the Alcoa Highway area is a "food desert" unless you consider the minimal offerings at CVS.

The USDA map was strange. It went by census racts so the Vestal food desert stretched almost to the Chapman Square Krogers. It was done before the Alcoa Hwy FC closed - also I think the focus was on low income neighborhoods.

I'm not sure why the Alcoa Hwy store closed. Maybe the surrounding neighborhoods shopped at more upscale stores - could it have been the opening of Earth Fare? Maybe because you can't see it easily from the road.

Well, it's hard to turn left to go north when leaving that shopping center, so that is a disincentive to go there, and the chain had recently opened the Mechanicsville store with gas pumps. Also, it was an old store with its lease up for renewal, I think they said.

I can't imagine how the CVS there stays in business. It always looks deserted.

Personally, I favor the project. I think it would take some deep pockets to take the risks - not "mom and pop".

walmart has provided a real boost to the small town in MS where I grew up. They have a distribution center in addition to a huge store with selections and prices that were never available before. Also, the employees, including managers, are mostly minorities who would not have been hired by the "mom and pop" stores of my youth.

My son was a WM store manager for a while and it was interesting to hear his perspective. They will hire almost anyone (give them a chance), but it is "survival of the fittest" after that. For part-timers, according to my son, the employee cost for health insurance was under $20 a month. His biggest frustration was trying to persuade them to "buy" the insurance! They said they couldn't afford it!

And in the small town in LA where I raised children, we'd go hang out at WM for the air conditioning! And it saved a 30 min drive out of town to shop elsewhere. Believe me, the selections were so much better than the few local stores that were available before WM opened.

That said, I almost never go to WM now - anxiety, claustrophobia. I don't shop much anyway and only go to the closest Target and my old Kroger store to see old friends on senior-discount Wednesdays :)

Let me point out that the city invested a tremendous amount of money in Market Square and elsewhere downtown which encouraged and enabled numerous local businesses in advance of the latest round of incentives to larger retailers. I would also posit that almost none of those downtown merchants have anything to fear in terms of lost business to Walmart or Publix. Apples and oranges. The city has not overlooked local entrepreneurs.

Also, I think it's quite possible that students, afforded a convenient opportunity, will be spending dollars not necessarily otherwise spent in the area due to the proximity of the development, and doing so without the benefit of motor vehicles.

Finally, folks concerned about the interplay between this development and Cumberland Avenue plans should keep in mind that the adjacent train trestle has a finite opening that already forms a bottleneck that I cannot imagine being widened.
~m.

I think the City's perspective on this matter should be independent of who the tenants are and rooted in principles of land use and planning. There is plenty to justify this $1.5M from that perspective.

For starters, the legacy pollution from Fulton Bellows is now a public burden. The responsible parties are no longer available to be invoiced, so the cost defaults to government. Getting this site capped alleviates that public burden.

Brownfield reuse also lowers public costs by avoiding new infrastructure investments necessary for greenfield development and by keeping existing infrastructure functional. Maintenance costs on compact roads and utilities are lower than maintenance on sprawling infrastructure.

Finally, looking at the particulars of the site, a retail center there will help retain connectivity between campus and Sutherland/Sequoyah, both via the Third Creek greenway and surface roads. This is especially important given the demolition of so much university housing along Sutherland in recent years. That area needs nurturing so local, mom-n-pop stores like Holy Land, Dead End BBQ, Oriental Supermarket, Savelli's, River Sports and more can retain traffic.

Given all that, a $1.5M investment in roads and foot/bike paths seems a fair price.

Spot on, and better than I could have said it.

There are issues galore. My oldest son was on the team that did the surveying of all the tunnels on the Fulton Bellow's site. And there were lots of tunnels.

Reusing old industrial property for new uses is good urban planning.

Between a re-do of Cumberland that will be more pedestrian friendly, this development, the new student ball fields put in on Sutherland and the use they will generate of the Third Creek Greenway this entire area can get a lot more friendly to those on foot or bike, and offer lots of stuff as well.

Going back to the original linked article, the problem appears to be the writer's issues with Walmart, the developers and who their "buddy" is.

If there are holes in Mr. Lyon's revenue/tax points or Rikki's environmental points, there may be cause for concern.

Seems if this were being done by different developers, with different friends and Target instead of Walmart, there would have been no need for the piece.

Yes, this thread is basically 3 threads mixed up together:

1) Is a project of this scope suitable at the Fulton Bellows site and should the City invest in it?
2) Food deserts and grocery stores in south Knoxville
3) Walmart

I realize there is overlap, but it would probably be helpful to address each one separately.

About the greenway connection: Bill Lyons tells me I was correct; there will be no bridge directly from the development to the greenway. Greenway users will need to go to Joe Johnson Drive, and enter the development from there.

Thanks to Bill for getting back to me.

Burning less fossil fuel is a path toward needing fewer hospitals.

What is the "productive use" of oil and who gets to decide that? (Besides the fossil fuel industry with major help from politicians to whom they've "spread the wealth around"?)

If you're going to go knee-jerk political, you're going to get called on it.

About the greenway connection: Bill Lyons tells me I was correct; there will be no bridge directly from the development to the greenway. Greenway users will need to go to Joe Johnson Drive, and enter the development from there.

That seems unfortunate.
~m.

TN women file new class-action sex discrimination suit against Walmart

Looking down on a map, I'm sure that connectivity route to the greenway system makes sense. But it doesn't really address the terrain. Coming and going from downtown on the greenway along the river, it inserts an unnecessary climb to get to the bridge and back down going both directions. Perhaps another more direct connection can be considered in the future. It would seem the more connectivity the better.
~m.

Speaking of health threats and hospitals, I can't remember the exact words nor can I find it on the internets, but I do recall Jesse Helms referring to his defense of the tobacco industry saying something like "We have the tobacco companies to thank for building our hospitals!"